6 ms·

I lived in Dharamshala (home to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile) for 3 months a few years ago. My partner at the time went back to the US to

I lived in Dharamshala (home to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile) for 3 months a few years ago. My partner at the time went back to the US to visit family, and I didn't want to leave Asia so I went there since I had some interest in Buddhism at the time, too. In random book stores, I met actual monks who had served time (in China) as political prisoners. One of which had also written a book about it. It was kind of funny to walk in into a book store, see these two guys drinking tea and then get pulled into a conversation out of curiosity. But, as for the stories themselves, probably not that funny. Some of the people (monks, mostly) had physical scars and their stories were anything but fun. I also went to their offices (a modest distance away from the Dalai Lama temple, but very walkable) and got to speak to senior officials there. I asked them basics questions like, "What do you think is the future for Tibet?" and they were very accommodating. We had tea, laughed and talked life. At first they thought I was a journalist, which was hilarious since my approach was very blunt but curious at the same time.

technobabbler 5y ago
So... what did they think was the future for Tibet?
- skilled 5y ago
  I certainly didn't ask that question from a political perspective. I'm not delusional to assume that Tibet and its people stand a chance against China. And this was also reflected in their answers. They're mostly concerned with ensuring that people have a safe passage out of there (having the ability to go to India and lead a life without oppression), while trying to negotiate peace deals for sacred locations and the deep Tibet. But I do think that this has been consistently falling on deaf ears. And, of course, they are hoping that the Dalai Lama will choose to reincarnate again to keep the "fight" going. Getting out of Tibet is not exactly a walk in the park. Though, it is a walk. A long and gloomy walk through treacherous mountains which in 70%+ cases leave people with frostbite and other injuries. I befriended a yoga teacher who was teaching an authentic Tibetan practice, and he sometimes had people over at his studio who had the day prior arrived to Dharamshala, from Tibet, through the mountain passages. It's unreal. It's not like they have the luxury of an empire conglomerate like other modern countries, but India has been good to them.
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    Sounds like a strong people trying to make the best of a bad situation. Rugged to the core, yet softened by wisdom.
  - R0b0t1 5y ago
    Is it expected Han Chinese will move in to displace the Tibetans? Why are they focusing on safe passage?
    - anadem 5y ago
      "Tibet has an estimated population of about 6 million Tibetans and 7.5 million Chinese settlers." [0] This is using the Chinese definition of Tibet, which is less than half of the historical Tibet. Han Chinese are encouraged to move into Tibet (and Xinjiang) to dilute the indigenous population. [0] https://unpo.org/members/7879 https://unpo.org/members/7879
      - copperwater69 5y ago
        cercatrova 5y ago
        It was the tactic of the British into Northern Ireland, interestingly enough. I suppose it's also the story of colonists coming into the Americas as well as parts of Africa, mainly South Africa.
        eloisius 5y ago
        Are you making thinly veiled references to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about replacing white people in Europe? I wouldn't assume so quickly, except that in your recent comment history you've repeatedly made anti-Semitic statements. I'm not gonna flag or downvote your comment, but at least have the personal honor to be direct about what you're insinuating. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30681863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30681863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30686118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30686118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30475258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30475258
virtualwhys 5y ago
Nit: you were likely in McLeod Ganj, Dharamshala is the city in the valley below (where few foreigners stay), and not terribly convenient to travel to/from if you were living in the city. That, or you were up in Dharamkat and hiked down into town/temple area where there are needless to say many Tibetan monks from the diaspora -- amazing part of India. Free Tibet
- humanistbot 5y ago
  Wow, what a tiny nit to pick.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    I appreciated it. I spent a little time looking at a map after reading it. The geographical, cultural and political relationships between India and Tibet are not discussed in the US as often as China-Tibet. Threaded forums are well able to accommodate these kinds of small side discussions, too.
    - perfopt 5y ago
      Which is so surprising. Religious, cultural and political connections between India and Tibet are old and historic.
      - 1123581321 5y ago
        Absolutely. We are just bad at geography and obsessed with China.
- thematrixturtle 5y ago
  The city (town) below is Lower Dharamshala, and McLeod Ganj is just another name for Upper Dharamshala. The Central Tibetan Administration, physically located in the upper part, consider themselves to be in "Dharamshala", and so does the Indian post office. https://tibet.net/contact/ https://tibet.net/contact/
chaostheory 5y ago
> But, as for the stories themselves, probably not that funny. You can't mention this and not tell a story or two
- skilled 5y ago
  One of the monks I met in the bookstore was Ven. Bagdro who authored the book A Hell on Earth[0]. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Earth-Biography-Political-Prisoner/dp/B0006FEDOI https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Earth-Biography-Political-Prison...
bigcat123 5y ago
chrisjc 5y ago
Sorry to ask such a macabre question... but why would China ever release political prisoners? Moreover, why wouldn't they just disappear them? I'm in no way suggesting they should or asserting China's great because they have standards when it comes to taking political prisoners... Nor am I stating that China is so barbarous that I would expect nothing less of them... I just don't know and wonder about the answers to these questions? Sounds like the former prisoners you met still hold the beliefs that probably made them prisoners in the first place. They're still monks (practicing I assume). They're now back in their country of origin? What was accomplished? Time? The best I can come up with is that it bought China time to begin and continue ethnically cleanse (displacing, not killing) Tibet (as well as other regions), while not breaking any international laws or attracting enough negative attention to jeopardize any foreign trade or financial relationships? Look at the news about what's supposedly going on in Xinjiang... China is getting nothing but bad publicity, but no international entity is pulling out of those areas or others in China because of what they're supposedly doing to the Uyghur population. If anyone is leaving China, it's been reported that it's for unrelated reasons. If China just disappeared these people instead of putting them in camps, would the world react any differently? It doesn't seem like anyone has been able to substantiate these claims about the resorts (concentration camps), so how much harder would it be for China create the same level of control around a massive park or recreation area (polyandrion or burial site)?
- sam-s 5y ago
  Same reason Gulag prisoners were released. It's a bureaucracy. The law says that this "crime" warrants a 15 year sentence. So he is sentenced to 15y. He is kept in the same labor camp with thieves &c. If he survives, he walks, because that's what the bureaucratic protocol says. Sometimes there is a separate rule that people like him are to be given an extra, say, 5 years for some "regime violation". However, the point is that if _all_ political crimes warrant a life sentence, then the deterrent value of prison disappears.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  They want to keep people afraid enough to comply, but not pissed off enough to rise up. You can only afford so many Tiananmens before you crush the national morale, and with it, your autocratic pyramid scheme. China doesn't want to become North Korea.

technobabbler 5y ago

So... what did they think was the future for Tibet?

skilled 5y ago
I certainly didn't ask that question from a political perspective. I'm not delusional to assume that Tibet and its people stand a chance against China. And this was also reflected in their answers. They're mostly concerned with ensuring that people have a safe passage out of there (having the ability to go to India and lead a life without oppression), while trying to negotiate peace deals for sacred locations and the deep Tibet. But I do think that this has been consistently falling on deaf ears. And, of course, they are hoping that the Dalai Lama will choose to reincarnate again to keep the "fight" going. Getting out of Tibet is not exactly a walk in the park. Though, it is a walk. A long and gloomy walk through treacherous mountains which in 70%+ cases leave people with frostbite and other injuries. I befriended a yoga teacher who was teaching an authentic Tibetan practice, and he sometimes had people over at his studio who had the day prior arrived to Dharamshala, from Tibet, through the mountain passages. It's unreal. It's not like they have the luxury of an empire conglomerate like other modern countries, but India has been good to them.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Sounds like a strong people trying to make the best of a bad situation. Rugged to the core, yet softened by wisdom.
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  Is it expected Han Chinese will move in to displace the Tibetans? Why are they focusing on safe passage?
  - anadem 5y ago
    "Tibet has an estimated population of about 6 million Tibetans and 7.5 million Chinese settlers." [0] This is using the Chinese definition of Tibet, which is less than half of the historical Tibet. Han Chinese are encouraged to move into Tibet (and Xinjiang) to dilute the indigenous population. [0] https://unpo.org/members/7879 https://unpo.org/members/7879
    - copperwater69 5y ago
      - cercatrova 5y ago
        It was the tactic of the British into Northern Ireland, interestingly enough. I suppose it's also the story of colonists coming into the Americas as well as parts of Africa, mainly South Africa.
      - eloisius 5y ago
        Are you making thinly veiled references to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about replacing white people in Europe? I wouldn't assume so quickly, except that in your recent comment history you've repeatedly made anti-Semitic statements. I'm not gonna flag or downvote your comment, but at least have the personal honor to be direct about what you're insinuating. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30681863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30681863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30686118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30686118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30475258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30475258

virtualwhys 5y ago

Nit: you were likely in McLeod Ganj, Dharamshala is the city in the valley below (where few foreigners stay), and not terribly convenient to travel to/from if you were living in the city. That, or you were up in Dharamkat and hiked down into town/temple area where there are needless to say many Tibetan monks from the diaspora -- amazing part of India. Free Tibet

humanistbot 5y ago
Wow, what a tiny nit to pick.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  I appreciated it. I spent a little time looking at a map after reading it. The geographical, cultural and political relationships between India and Tibet are not discussed in the US as often as China-Tibet. Threaded forums are well able to accommodate these kinds of small side discussions, too.
  - perfopt 5y ago
    Which is so surprising. Religious, cultural and political connections between India and Tibet are old and historic.
    - 1123581321 5y ago
      Absolutely. We are just bad at geography and obsessed with China.
thematrixturtle 5y ago
The city (town) below is Lower Dharamshala, and McLeod Ganj is just another name for Upper Dharamshala. The Central Tibetan Administration, physically located in the upper part, consider themselves to be in "Dharamshala", and so does the Indian post office. https://tibet.net/contact/ https://tibet.net/contact/

chaostheory 5y ago

> But, as for the stories themselves, probably not that funny. You can't mention this and not tell a story or two

skilled 5y ago
One of the monks I met in the bookstore was Ven. Bagdro who authored the book A Hell on Earth[0]. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Earth-Biography-Political-Prisoner/dp/B0006FEDOI https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Earth-Biography-Political-Prison...

bigcat123 5y ago

chrisjc 5y ago

Sorry to ask such a macabre question... but why would China ever release political prisoners? Moreover, why wouldn't they just disappear them? I'm in no way suggesting they should or asserting China's great because they have standards when it comes to taking political prisoners... Nor am I stating that China is so barbarous that I would expect nothing less of them... I just don't know and wonder about the answers to these questions? Sounds like the former prisoners you met still hold the beliefs that probably made them prisoners in the first place. They're still monks (practicing I assume). They're now back in their country of origin? What was accomplished? Time? The best I can come up with is that it bought China time to begin and continue ethnically cleanse (displacing, not killing) Tibet (as well as other regions), while not breaking any international laws or attracting enough negative attention to jeopardize any foreign trade or financial relationships? Look at the news about what's supposedly going on in Xinjiang... China is getting nothing but bad publicity, but no international entity is pulling out of those areas or others in China because of what they're supposedly doing to the Uyghur population. If anyone is leaving China, it's been reported that it's for unrelated reasons. If China just disappeared these people instead of putting them in camps, would the world react any differently? It doesn't seem like anyone has been able to substantiate these claims about the resorts (concentration camps), so how much harder would it be for China create the same level of control around a massive park or recreation area (polyandrion or burial site)?

sam-s 5y ago
Same reason Gulag prisoners were released. It's a bureaucracy. The law says that this "crime" warrants a 15 year sentence. So he is sentenced to 15y. He is kept in the same labor camp with thieves &c. If he survives, he walks, because that's what the bureaucratic protocol says. Sometimes there is a separate rule that people like him are to be given an extra, say, 5 years for some "regime violation". However, the point is that if _all_ political crimes warrant a life sentence, then the deterrent value of prison disappears.
technobabbler 5y ago
They want to keep people afraid enough to comply, but not pissed off enough to rise up. You can only afford so many Tiananmens before you crush the national morale, and with it, your autocratic pyramid scheme. China doesn't want to become North Korea.