6 ms·

Russia deploys a mystery munition in Ukraine

38 points by mhb 5y ago

jrgd 5y ago
“But we never see them because they’re highly secret — if you know how they work, you can counteract them.” followed by a picture of the inside made me think it’s not mysterious anymore.
- gumby 5y ago
  Read the end of the article for a short discussion of this very point.
whywhywhywhy 5y ago
Non-paywalled https://archive.ph/do7Ai https://archive.ph/do7Ai
- scruffyherder 5y ago
  Interesting article but it’s decoy middles not the “cope cages”
999900000999 5y ago
Given China and India's refusal to enforce sanctions against Russia, this has gotten very interesting. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/14/columbia-university-on-china-helping-russia-with-impact-of-sanctions.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/14/columbia-university-on-china... From an economic point of view, it appears both countries are sick of having to use USD as reserve currency. If China starts trading directly with Russia and other countries, using Yuan, we may see the USD losing power.
- stef25 5y ago
  Would it be beneficial to China to deal more (directly) with India & Russia at the cost of dealing less with USA & Europe?
  - dmitrygr 5y ago
    Who said "less with USA". Do you think USA will cut trade with china/india just in spite? Without imports &cheap labour from there, USA'd be back in progress by a few decades as we do not manufacture much here anymore.
    - bluGill 5y ago
      The US does a lot of manufacturing, don't be fooled by the hype. Though I agree it would set back progress in the US to stop trade with China. There are a lot of things we get from China that will be hard to replace in the near term. However China is buying food from the US, so they have more to lose. (This depends on how Brazil reacts - if Brazil also cuts of China there isn't anyplace to get enough food)
  - 999900000999 5y ago
    I strongly suspect China can do both. Even Europe is still dependent on Russian gas. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/14/russian-gas-oil-boycott-mass-poverty-warns-germany https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/14/russian-gas-oi...
  - bluGill 5y ago
    India is afraid of China and actively trying to trade less with them. China has been aggressive near India's borders in the recent past.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- throwmeariver1 5y ago
  Wrong thread?
- kasey_junk 5y ago
  China trades directly with other countries than the U.S. today. They account for about 15% of global trade but the yuan is about 2% of the currency market. That, for context, is still the fifth highest currency. The reason people use USD (and the EUR) for global trade is liberal currency controls and long term economic stability. Perhaps China is approaching the latter but for the former the status quo of the yuan is on par with the current sanction regime of the USD and the EUR. Except that it exists for every trading partner and every transaction taking place in the yuan. The yuan is growing in importance naturally but before it becomes a global currency it has to be liberalized and no one knows what happens then. The CCP is pretty skeptical of liberalization and is going the opposite direction currently.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  If China starts trading with Russia using the Yuan it's going to have to buy a ton of USD and other currencies to keep the artificially low Yuan peg[1] going. I don't think the USD is going to lose power in this scenario. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/030616/why-chinese-yuan-pegged.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/030616/why-chine...
trollied 5y ago
There's a picture of one on Twitter: https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1500100071718854657 https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1500100071718854657
- clsec 5y ago
  And here's what the inside looks like: https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1502936526346465280 https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1502936526346465280
Sosh101 5y ago
There is no 'mystery' - the west might not be familiar it, but it's obvious what its function is: Decoys with electronic jamming and IR sources to help the missile evade defenses.
- kasey_junk 5y ago
  As the subhead of the article mentions?
- wil421 5y ago
  The US used “decoys” in Desert Storm. They were very successful and served the same function as you describe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-141_TALD https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-141_TALD
stevespang 5y ago
Avalaxy 5y ago
I was thinking about modern intercept missiles: they all seem to use something like radar or infrared to detect and target missiles. But they also seem quite easily fooled by countermeasures. In many cases the human eye can easily distinguish between the real target (a helicopter or cruise missile) and the counter measures. Would it therefor not be feasible to use something like computer vision to make the intercept missile find its target visually?
- throwawayninja 5y ago
  Elon musk has a new market for his self-driving tech; the EV cruise interceptor! "We're only using consumer-grade cameras folks"
- bdavis__ 5y ago
  go to work for Boeing or Lockheed. you might be surprised by the sophistication of missile seekers. and countermeasures. note that what you see on TV in the current conflict may be several generations old.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > In many cases the human eye can easily distinguish between the real target (a helicopter or cruise missile) and the counter measures. Machines can accomplish the same objectives as humans without functioning like humans. Computers do math, but nothing like humans and some things that are easy for humans are very difficult for computers, and vice versa. People and machines can both traverse terrain, but some terrain that people handle easily is very difficult for machines, and vice versa. The fact that human vision can detect the difference doesn't mean that machines can.
- jareklupinski 5y ago
  let's just go all the way to bioengineering weaponry again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon
ortusdux 5y ago
>The use of the decoys may point to some level of carelessness or urgency by Russian military leadership, Mr. Lewis said, given that Russia knows they will inevitably be collected and studied by Western intelligence services so that NATO air defenses can be programmed to defeat the Iskander’s countermeasures. It does surprise me that they do no self-destruct upon impact. I wonder if they continue to have jamming capabilities even on the ground. They use a solid rocket motor, which could easily be capped with a small charge that would only detonate once fuel is depleted. This is how most aerial firework operate and it is quite reliable. A delay could also be easily built in.
- hajile 5y ago
  That seems like an overly-optimistic analysis on the part of the article. This is like saying flares don't work because we know about them. Just because you know what the jammer radar signature looks like doesn't mean you can do anything about it.
- kalium-xyz 5y ago
  https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1502936526346465280/photo/1 https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1502936526346465280/photo... looking at the internals this isn't exactly a very new device.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    It looks like high power Russian electronics to me, any reason you think it look old?
    - vincnetas 5y ago
      From Twitter comments : "Yeah, that stuff looks like it's from the soviet era. "The design originated at Motorola around 1955. The lead spacing was originally intended to allow plugging the device into a then-common tube socket."" With picture https://twitter.com/Marty_Crabneck/status/1503550186660012032 https://twitter.com/Marty_Crabneck/status/150355018666001203...
graderjs 5y ago
It may be a stupid question...but why doesn't a country simply use something like "LSD gas" or "psyilocybin gas"? The assumptions are: 1) it renders people temporarily crazy and docile / compliant, 2) it will wear off in a day or two, 3) people will fully recover, 4) while they are gassed, you can just gently shepherd them out of their dwellings / fortifications and onto buses to take to refugee camps or something, while they have an out-of-body mystical experience and comprehend the totality of existence. Everybody wins. It seems that a non-lethal / no permanent disability hallucinogenic agent would not violate the treaty against chemical/biological weapons, would basically achieve passive area denial, with create zero casualties, and would (if it actually worked as intended) probably be a heck of a lot of fun (ignoring all the un-fun aspects of war like "these new people now own this territory and here are the consequences for everyone who used to own it".) Note: if a gas is impractical as delivery mechanism (hello, gas masks), be creative: a 'contact agent' (skin absorption ~~ like DMSO), cheap 'cluster darts' sprayed from drones, etc, etc.
- krono 5y ago
  > no permanent disability hallucinogenic agent Reactions with other (perscription) meds, pre-existing medical conditions, side effects, and more such things could lead to permanent damage anyway.
  - graderjs 5y ago
    Good point. Would need to be thought through.
- disambiguation 5y ago
  Are you on LSD gas right now?
  - graderjs 5y ago
    Hahaha you said "lsd gas". Awesome! Heh, I wish :) Never tried the LSD. Would love to. Never came across it. Hook a brother up? ;p xxx ;) edit: re-thinking this after reading the sibling comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30685186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30685186): I very well may be! hahaha

38 points by mhb 5y ago

jrgd 5y ago

“But we never see them because they’re highly secret — if you know how they work, you can counteract them.” followed by a picture of the inside made me think it’s not mysterious anymore.

gumby 5y ago
Read the end of the article for a short discussion of this very point.

whywhywhywhy 5y ago

Non-paywalled https://archive.ph/do7Ai https://archive.ph/do7Ai

scruffyherder 5y ago
Interesting article but it’s decoy middles not the “cope cages”

999900000999 5y ago

Given China and India's refusal to enforce sanctions against Russia, this has gotten very interesting. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/14/columbia-university-on-china-helping-russia-with-impact-of-sanctions.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/14/columbia-university-on-china... From an economic point of view, it appears both countries are sick of having to use USD as reserve currency. If China starts trading directly with Russia and other countries, using Yuan, we may see the USD losing power.

stef25 5y ago
Would it be beneficial to China to deal more (directly) with India & Russia at the cost of dealing less with USA & Europe?
- dmitrygr 5y ago
  Who said "less with USA". Do you think USA will cut trade with china/india just in spite? Without imports &cheap labour from there, USA'd be back in progress by a few decades as we do not manufacture much here anymore.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    The US does a lot of manufacturing, don't be fooled by the hype. Though I agree it would set back progress in the US to stop trade with China. There are a lot of things we get from China that will be hard to replace in the near term. However China is buying food from the US, so they have more to lose. (This depends on how Brazil reacts - if Brazil also cuts of China there isn't anyplace to get enough food)
- 999900000999 5y ago
  I strongly suspect China can do both. Even Europe is still dependent on Russian gas. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/14/russian-gas-oil-boycott-mass-poverty-warns-germany https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/14/russian-gas-oi...
- bluGill 5y ago
  India is afraid of China and actively trying to trade less with them. China has been aggressive near India's borders in the recent past.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throwmeariver1 5y ago
Wrong thread?
kasey_junk 5y ago
China trades directly with other countries than the U.S. today. They account for about 15% of global trade but the yuan is about 2% of the currency market. That, for context, is still the fifth highest currency. The reason people use USD (and the EUR) for global trade is liberal currency controls and long term economic stability. Perhaps China is approaching the latter but for the former the status quo of the yuan is on par with the current sanction regime of the USD and the EUR. Except that it exists for every trading partner and every transaction taking place in the yuan. The yuan is growing in importance naturally but before it becomes a global currency it has to be liberalized and no one knows what happens then. The CCP is pretty skeptical of liberalization and is going the opposite direction currently.
AlexandrB 5y ago
If China starts trading with Russia using the Yuan it's going to have to buy a ton of USD and other currencies to keep the artificially low Yuan peg[1] going. I don't think the USD is going to lose power in this scenario. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/030616/why-chinese-yuan-pegged.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/030616/why-chine...

trollied 5y ago

There's a picture of one on Twitter: https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1500100071718854657 https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1500100071718854657

clsec 5y ago
And here's what the inside looks like: https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1502936526346465280 https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1502936526346465280

Sosh101 5y ago

There is no 'mystery' - the west might not be familiar it, but it's obvious what its function is: Decoys with electronic jamming and IR sources to help the missile evade defenses.

kasey_junk 5y ago
As the subhead of the article mentions?
wil421 5y ago
The US used “decoys” in Desert Storm. They were very successful and served the same function as you describe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-141_TALD https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-141_TALD

stevespang 5y ago

Avalaxy 5y ago

I was thinking about modern intercept missiles: they all seem to use something like radar or infrared to detect and target missiles. But they also seem quite easily fooled by countermeasures. In many cases the human eye can easily distinguish between the real target (a helicopter or cruise missile) and the counter measures. Would it therefor not be feasible to use something like computer vision to make the intercept missile find its target visually?

throwawayninja 5y ago
Elon musk has a new market for his self-driving tech; the EV cruise interceptor! "We're only using consumer-grade cameras folks"
bdavis__ 5y ago
go to work for Boeing or Lockheed. you might be surprised by the sophistication of missile seekers. and countermeasures. note that what you see on TV in the current conflict may be several generations old.
wolverine876 5y ago
> In many cases the human eye can easily distinguish between the real target (a helicopter or cruise missile) and the counter measures. Machines can accomplish the same objectives as humans without functioning like humans. Computers do math, but nothing like humans and some things that are easy for humans are very difficult for computers, and vice versa. People and machines can both traverse terrain, but some terrain that people handle easily is very difficult for machines, and vice versa. The fact that human vision can detect the difference doesn't mean that machines can.
jareklupinski 5y ago
let's just go all the way to bioengineering weaponry again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon

ortusdux 5y ago

>The use of the decoys may point to some level of carelessness or urgency by Russian military leadership, Mr. Lewis said, given that Russia knows they will inevitably be collected and studied by Western intelligence services so that NATO air defenses can be programmed to defeat the Iskander’s countermeasures. It does surprise me that they do no self-destruct upon impact. I wonder if they continue to have jamming capabilities even on the ground. They use a solid rocket motor, which could easily be capped with a small charge that would only detonate once fuel is depleted. This is how most aerial firework operate and it is quite reliable. A delay could also be easily built in.

hajile 5y ago
That seems like an overly-optimistic analysis on the part of the article. This is like saying flares don't work because we know about them. Just because you know what the jammer radar signature looks like doesn't mean you can do anything about it.
kalium-xyz 5y ago
https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1502936526346465280/photo/1 https://twitter.com/CAT_UXO/status/1502936526346465280/photo... looking at the internals this isn't exactly a very new device.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  It looks like high power Russian electronics to me, any reason you think it look old?
  - vincnetas 5y ago
    From Twitter comments : "Yeah, that stuff looks like it's from the soviet era. "The design originated at Motorola around 1955. The lead spacing was originally intended to allow plugging the device into a then-common tube socket."" With picture https://twitter.com/Marty_Crabneck/status/1503550186660012032 https://twitter.com/Marty_Crabneck/status/150355018666001203...

graderjs 5y ago

It may be a stupid question...but why doesn't a country simply use something like "LSD gas" or "psyilocybin gas"? The assumptions are: 1) it renders people temporarily crazy and docile / compliant, 2) it will wear off in a day or two, 3) people will fully recover, 4) while they are gassed, you can just gently shepherd them out of their dwellings / fortifications and onto buses to take to refugee camps or something, while they have an out-of-body mystical experience and comprehend the totality of existence. Everybody wins. It seems that a non-lethal / no permanent disability hallucinogenic agent would not violate the treaty against chemical/biological weapons, would basically achieve passive area denial, with create zero casualties, and would (if it actually worked as intended) probably be a heck of a lot of fun (ignoring all the un-fun aspects of war like "these new people now own this territory and here are the consequences for everyone who used to own it".) Note: if a gas is impractical as delivery mechanism (hello, gas masks), be creative: a 'contact agent' (skin absorption ~~ like DMSO), cheap 'cluster darts' sprayed from drones, etc, etc.

krono 5y ago
> no permanent disability hallucinogenic agent Reactions with other (perscription) meds, pre-existing medical conditions, side effects, and more such things could lead to permanent damage anyway.
- graderjs 5y ago
  Good point. Would need to be thought through.
disambiguation 5y ago
Are you on LSD gas right now?
- graderjs 5y ago
  Hahaha you said "lsd gas". Awesome! Heh, I wish :) Never tried the LSD. Would love to. Never came across it. Hook a brother up? ;p xxx ;) edit: re-thinking this after reading the sibling comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30685186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30685186): I very well may be! hahaha