11 ms·

Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

75 points by chippy 5y ago

koolba 5y ago
Why is seizing property without due process okay when we do it? Is it the same reason that dissenting opinions can’t be heard because they’re dangerous propaganda?
- paganel 5y ago
  > Why is seizing property without due process okay when we do it Honestly, I would have thought that the recent nationalisation of Russian oligarchs' assets over much of the Western world would sent thrills down the spines of many, many other wealthy people, no matter their citizenship. Probably it was a shock to them, too, I expect a counter-reaction via media in the coming weeks. Locke wrote his famous treatises on government especially for cases like this one, i.e. what happens with your property when you fall on the wrong side of the current powers that be? He said that said powers shouldn't confiscate your property, and there are many smart people who have said/written during the last few centuries that that viewpoint stands at the basis of our (Western) civilisation. Interesting times, to say the least.
- samhw 5y ago
  This is due process, per the laws of the countries their yachts are in.
  - paganel 5y ago
    The communist nationalisation process after WW2 was also 100% legal in the countries where it was applied. Later edit: To make things clearer, because I have the impression that people in the West live with the idea that out-here in the former Communist East (from where I'm from) things like nationalisations and all that were done sort of outside the law, hence why doing similar things in the West right now might be ok because it's done under the auspices of the law, I repeat, most of the that stuff was done with the law in hand. I even wrote/implemented a small personal project [1] based on such a law, the June 1950 nationalisation law. I wanted to see where were located the properties of the Bucharest-based Jewish population that got their properties confiscated (remember, this was after WW2, under a regime that had fought against the Nazis). Of course that the Jews were not implicitly targeted by that law, but they were greatly affected by it (being, on average, a little better-off and more urban compared to the regular Romanian peasant). [1]http://bucuresti.maglina.ro/nationalizari/ http://bucuresti.maglina.ro/nationalizari/ (you have to ignore the GMaps warning, I was too lazy to put anything else in place since their API changes some time ago; also, not sure it works on mobile).
  - koolba 5y ago
    Show me which western country and laws grants the government the right to seize property without due process. If that's really the case there's going to be a massive shift in capital allocation over the next decade. In the USA this is specifically banned by the Constitution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder
    - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
      USA has something very close to that - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... It's universally thought as a "bad thing", and more like a "highway robbery" than something citizens actually want. But when it's the russians, it's suddenly ok.
  - throwawayninja 5y ago
    This is a good thing to keep in mind; I originally figured this was outlandishly unfair, but lined up against other sanctions it makes sense. If sovereign nations can prevent profitable trade (aka ownership & exercising of business relations) it makes sense to prevent ownership & exercising of business property.
- cd23 5y ago
- _bbny 5y ago
  Because it helps get rid of Putin and its something we are able to do. Getting rid of Putin is our objective right now. Is it technically ethical and nice? Maybe not, that can be debated. But I don't see why we should care. Russia's also seizing foreign property as well as invading another country, if you do want to have that ethical argument. This is how the world works, I don't think we should get bogged down in whether it's technically entirely OK for those poor Russian-govt-linked billionaires to have less yachts. It's in our power, it's in our interest, and that's how the world works.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    So wait... if we europeans wanted to get rid of eg. clinton for bombing in yugoslavia, and then bush of the middle eastern crap (well, technically both bushes), we can just take away property of random rich americans?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - scotty79 5y ago
      Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them. American oligarchs have total influence over American government. If they allow such thing to happen they are materially responsible for the damage.
      - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
        > Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them. Why mexico or canada? Why not for iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? Jugoslavia? Why only for annexation and not for "just bombing" or even occupation, with yes, tanks? Shelling civillians? Like bombing a civillian train? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing A bus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C5%BEane_bus_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C5%BEane_bus_bombing How about escaping refugees? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Albanian_refugees_near_Gjakova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Albanian_refug... Or a foreign embassy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_C... Civillian tv station? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_the_Radio_Television_of_Serbia_headquarters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_the_Radio_Tele... How about directly custer bombing a city? Twice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1_cluster_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1_cluster_bombing A hospital? https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans/stories/brussels052199.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans... So you agree, that if US/NATO doesn't immediately pull out from eg. syria, that switzerland can take away googles property in Zurich?
cyberpunk 5y ago
So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against.
- kragen 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm not looking forward to when Argentina decides they can seize the property of any US citizen because of the US invasion of Iraq.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  > just OK to seize private property of individuals Yes, it's a war. Deal with it If they have a problem they can take it up with their boss. > to this is getting pretty fucking scary I believe there are kids in Ukraine who are legitimately scared. Getting your megayacht confiscated is just a first world problem.
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    >Yes, it's a war. Deal with it The countries doing the seizing aren't at war with Russia and seem adamant about currently not being at war.
    - avh02 5y ago
      And one of the ways they're trying to keep from joining and turning it in to ww3 is confiscating the opponent's rich people's toys.
    - scrollaway 5y ago
      Russia itself is adamant about not being at war. It's a "special operation", remember? We're trying really hard to toe the line in order not to start a third world war. But we are at war. We're sending aid and weapons every day by the megatons to Ukraine. Ukrainians are fighting on our behalf, so that nuclear escalation does not happen. But as far as Russia is concerned, we are at war, and in fact Putin himself said that the various sanctions and such are "acts of war", even if he hasn't acted on it (yet).
jeanlou 5y ago
This is becoming ridiculous
hbbio 5y ago
Without questioning if seizing the property of Russian billionaires is justified or not, if you believe in equity, the property of American billionaires should also be seized by the other countries for the nearly 200 000 civilian deaths in Iraq (which is much worse, but the US-led war lasted longer). Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Iraqi_civilian_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Ira...
- stuaxo 5y ago
  What a fantastic idea, billionaires are a symptom of our unequal society. We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.
  - obilgic 5y ago
    so we force productive people to retire early? How do you expect to have Google, Microsoft, Apple Tesla, SpaceX? if their founders were to retire once they have 50m
    - newsclues 5y ago
      People can continue to be productive without meaninglessly adding more digits to their network. Or maybe others would be highly productive if the current people retire.
      - esyir 5y ago
        Hey, why don't you work for me, you won't get money, but you'll get visibility.
    - this_was_posted 5y ago
      No one is forcing them to retire, I for one would be interested to see what these productive people would come up with when they shift their goal from making a great profit to making a great social impact.
newaccount2021 5y ago
vowelless 5y ago
Should the world seize the assets of Silicon Valley billionaires over the US invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and other actions in MENA? Probably.
- barney54 5y ago
  Why? Because they are American? The case against the Russian oligarchs is better because they are quasi state actors, however, but the case against the Russian oligarchs looks bad too.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    Last couple of years big tech in America became quasi state actors, we are seeing it now on social media but the last election was a glaring example.
    - forum_ghost 5y ago
      Last couple of years is just when it became blatantly obvious to pretty much everyone. Google's founders were funded and supervised by DoD employees in their grad school. https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance/ https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci... Here is how "Google Earth" happened: "In-Q-Tel sold 5,636 shares of Google, worth over $2.2 million, on November 15, 2005. The shares were a result of Google's acquisition of Keyhole, Inc, the CIA-funded satellite mapping software now known as Google Earth." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel Facebook launched in 2004. First check from Peter Thiel, who founded Palantir in 2003. DARPA's Lifelog was "cancelled" in 2003. They were designed to be mass surveillance from the start. Some even funded directly be equity investments at pre-seed/seed stage. Others, funded at the research stage.
  - Fordec 5y ago
    And Bezos, Bloomberg, Ellison, Thiel, etc. aren't quasi state actors?
bjarneh 5y ago
I always thought: Wow they seized his yacht; I never thought that these people had a bunch of these billion dollar things floating around... So they seized one of his many, many boats. I have to agree with everybody else in this thread, not a big fan of blaming the people of Russia for what their dictator does; even if they are in his so called "inner circle". Perhaps these people can pressure Putin to change his mind, but he doesn't look like a humble man looking for advice.
- throwaway290 5y ago
  US and Russia unites in cheering for Russian oligarchs being robbed (ordinary Russians, especially the war-supporting pseudo proletariat, never really valued wealth or private property and would happily watch oligarchs parting with their toys; and the US citizens think something productive is being done). The rich themselves would suffer next to no drop in their quality of life. They probably got rich by exploiting Russian resources, but most likely denounce Putin and the war anyway. It is a weird development, but all things considered not the worst thing that's happening.
  - bjarneh 5y ago
    > but all things considered not the worst thing that's happening. I agree, not a big thing, and I certainly think people with that kind of wealth know more about hiding money than the rest of us will ever know, and this war will probably not affect their wealth too much. They probably all knew in advance and shorted some Russian stock on the London stock exchange - making a killing. I do find it a bit strange that we "cheer on" this seizure of property based on nationality though; but most probably think it's ok since they are so obscenely rich.
    - throwaway290 5y ago
      Yeah. I am semi-worried about the world turning on regular Russians like myself after that. We are so much easier to deal with than oligarchs with their multiple citizenships and property overseas; for us it's freeze one bank account or card and done. If I am forced to return and work in Russian IT (seeing as I would also not be able to get paid by overseas customers due to sanctions), we both know which government's war this would support.
scrollaway 5y ago
A small tip to HN readers: Whataboutism is key to Russian propaganda. I'm not saying people here are Russian trolls, but if your key reaction to "What's happening in Ukraine is shit and we need to do something NOW" is to say "Oh but what about what the US did in the past?", you're amplifying Russian propaganda, and it may be because you've been hearing Russian-funded articles/media, directly or indirectly. Nothing, in the immediate, will be done about the US's past war crimes. Should something be done? Yes. Is having this conversation now while Europe is at war and civilians are dying every day, hospitals are bombed, and millions are fleeing Ukraine? No, all that serves is to strengthen Russia's position on the web, which is a very important part of their strategy (as it has been for the past 8 years). So I ask of you: 1. Do not amplify Putin's message and propaganda. You want to talk about this stuff? Wait for the war to end. Please. 2. Stop making everything in the world about the USA, FFS. My friends and girlfriend's family are hearing bombs fall every day, why do you have to make this about you?
- heavenlyblue 5y ago
  I really like the fact that now that RT is banned everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia. Where have you been when RT was doing that brazenly in front of your faces with full acceptance of the governments? It's quite frankly amusing that it took Russia an invasion of Ukraine for that to become illegal, while before (Brexit, etc) it was just "freedom of speech".
  - scrollaway 5y ago
    > Where have you been I was always there, speaking out against propaganda, maybe you can check my post history. And I don't know what you're on, but "everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia" is utterly wrong. HN is becoming a very scary, far too pro-Russia place since the past week or so now that the Russians have gotten a better handle on their propaganda. If you have doubts, you can look at my post's score which is hovering around zero, constantly being voted up and down. Opinion in Europe is extremely anti-Russia at this point, but I see that the US media is coming back to its old habits pitting controversy for the sake of clicks. As a result, US opinion went from overwhelmingly anti-Russia to "maybe they're not all bad I mean let's just look at what we did before oh well" in the span of a few days.
paganel 5y ago
Should have probably mentioned "Russian Oligarchs" in the title, didn't see anything about Jeff Bezos (an oligarch by definition, he even has his own MSM thingie) and the like.
asimpletune 5y ago
I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are. That is not the same thing as denying them due process. In other words, it's just a website. On the other hand, the actual due process part happen when the actual authorities of those countries, follow the laws of their country, and seize those assets because of sanctions.
- sha256sum 5y ago
  > I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are…it's just a website. An upvote alone is not enough to echo this comment. After all this is Hacker News. Not really a great place for insight in due process, but a good one for things OSINT visualization projects
- gambler 5y ago
  Reframing mass doxing as crowd sourcing doesn't change the basic dynamics of what's going on.
  - qaq 5y ago
    Yes those poor cleptocrat oligarchs with their 100 mil+ yachts being doxed
  - dwaltrip 5y ago
    Reframing crowd sourcing as mass doxing doesn't change the basic dynamics of what's going on.
- aaron695 5y ago
- koolba 5y ago
  > I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are. That is not the same thing as denying them due process. In other words, it's just a website. So it's not doxxing because they're Russians?
christmm 5y ago
gambler 5y ago
A lot of these "oligarchs" have citizenships of European countries. (Which, in my opinion, they shouldn't have been given in the first place, but that's an entirely different conversation.) So in many cases people are effectively cheering for extra-judicial property seizure of European citizens. The consequences of setting such precedent will go way beyond the scope of the current conflict.
DaltonCoffee 5y ago
The simple fact that the term oligarch has come to be assumed to be preceded by the term Russian, as in the title, speaks volumes. Honest question: Are Russian oligarchs more tied to the Russian gov't than in the USA, like how the RBN is more tied to gov't than American counterparts such as Pegasus/etc.
cabirum 5y ago
Well then, don't act surprised when all Western companies and assets get nationalized.
- Fordec 5y ago
  Russia already announced they are doing so for any company that shuts down operations (even temporarily) in Russia that have 25% or more foreign control last week. This talk now is in response to Russia acting in that manner first.
5etho 5y ago
well, offtop by Russophilis is getting out of hand. Russia was aggresor, in 1994 in Chechnya IIRC 1999 Chechnya, Georgia 2008, Ukraine 2014, Ukraine 2022. Russian FSB do terrorists attack on their own citizen [1]. Case is simple, goverment is a war crime and was for 28 years. There is a whole generation of young people brainwashed by their parents with roots back to 1800s tsarist propaganda. Russians need to step up and deal with their horrible country past. I, as a polish, kinda has a natural degree in sovietology and Moscow war crimes throughout the ages. I'm sorry that you're dealing with some incovenciencse. But there are people dying right now. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
- thriftwy 5y ago
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  Now do usa! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States#20th-century_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni... But when america does it, it's a "war for peace!" - https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/1101950911_400.jpg https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/11... Look, we all agree war is bad... I live in the balkans, and I had american planes flying above my roof, bombing a country 300km away not that long ago... not to forget all of our "local" wars before that. But saying that americans are any better than russians or vice-versa is a huge lie. Russians atleast had a "weak" period in the 90s, where they didn't do this shit, until they got their economy fixed a bit, americans didn't stop even then.
  - scrollaway 5y ago
    The US is not currently invading Ukraine. "Now do USA!" is whataboutism. It's what Putin is using as his justification to invade Ukraine: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/world/europe/putin-ukraine-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/world/europe/putin-ukrain... Please. Stop. Amplifying. Putin's. Message.
wilde 5y ago
So much whattaboutism in this thread. We are at war. Seizing property of the other belligerents is a very normal thing to do in a war. Russia is currently seizing assets from American companies who leave the country. Russia is currently bombing Ukrainian hospitals. This is a somewhat tame escalation in that light.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  A lot of whataboutism. Many people downvoting the ones reminding those who are sitting safe in their unthreatened homes talking about "both sides" and "due process" that this isn't a fair and honorable fight, this is a dictator expanding into Europe by killing civilians and using his wealth and power to bully politicians and other states. If there are digital archives left over after all this, these are the conversations people in the future will be reading to understand why the fuck Russia was able to get so much implicit support. Ever wonder "how germans let Hitler get away with it"? Future generations will look back at these to understand how Putin got away with so much. Say hi, you're on a book. What year is this?
- insickness 5y ago
  You complain about whattaboutism then point out that Russia is doing the same thing three sentences later. "We are at war" has been used to justify the worst atrocities in human history.
  - wilde 5y ago
    It’s not whattaboutism if they’re linked. The two actions are by belligerents in the same conflict. EDIT: I’m also calling it whattaboutism because I don’t think folks are actually arguing that other nations should have entered the Iraq war on the side of Iraq or ISIS. If they’re legit arguing that, it’s valid (though I disagree).
Wronnay 5y ago
Where was all this reaction in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia?! Russia is TO THIS FUCKING DAY in Georgia and nobody cares about it. Georgia and Ukraine are just 1,167 km = 725 miles away but the West only plays world super police when something near to the EU border happens or if the country has a lot of Oil. I am really sick of the politics of both sides. If the US would have done something in 2008, than Russia wouldn't even dare to touch Ukraine.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  Shouldn't you be happy there is at least a reaction now? I could say the exact same of Turkey and Cyprus. Being sick of the politics "on both sides" only serves to lessen the CURRENT reaction. It's not useful. You want payback for Georgia? I want payback for a lot of other things that didn't get their deserved political reaction. NOW is better than "let's just not do it cause we didn't do it last time".
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- scotty79 5y ago
  I'm terribly sorry that it took Georgia and Chechnya for the west to finally get of their asses. I guess third time's the charm. Poland understood what was happening from the first invasion. But western governments have their perception impaired by distance or something. Maybe yoi can't hear bombs that well from under all of that Russian oil. Only the vision of Russian tanks on NATO border and two million of refugees entering EU got through to them.

75 points by chippy 5y ago

Why is seizing property without due process okay when we do it? Is it the same reason that dissenting opinions can’t be heard because they’re dangerous propaganda?

paganel 5y ago
> Why is seizing property without due process okay when we do it Honestly, I would have thought that the recent nationalisation of Russian oligarchs' assets over much of the Western world would sent thrills down the spines of many, many other wealthy people, no matter their citizenship. Probably it was a shock to them, too, I expect a counter-reaction via media in the coming weeks. Locke wrote his famous treatises on government especially for cases like this one, i.e. what happens with your property when you fall on the wrong side of the current powers that be? He said that said powers shouldn't confiscate your property, and there are many smart people who have said/written during the last few centuries that that viewpoint stands at the basis of our (Western) civilisation. Interesting times, to say the least.
samhw 5y ago
This is due process, per the laws of the countries their yachts are in.
- paganel 5y ago
  The communist nationalisation process after WW2 was also 100% legal in the countries where it was applied. Later edit: To make things clearer, because I have the impression that people in the West live with the idea that out-here in the former Communist East (from where I'm from) things like nationalisations and all that were done sort of outside the law, hence why doing similar things in the West right now might be ok because it's done under the auspices of the law, I repeat, most of the that stuff was done with the law in hand. I even wrote/implemented a small personal project [1] based on such a law, the June 1950 nationalisation law. I wanted to see where were located the properties of the Bucharest-based Jewish population that got their properties confiscated (remember, this was after WW2, under a regime that had fought against the Nazis). Of course that the Jews were not implicitly targeted by that law, but they were greatly affected by it (being, on average, a little better-off and more urban compared to the regular Romanian peasant). [1]http://bucuresti.maglina.ro/nationalizari/ http://bucuresti.maglina.ro/nationalizari/ (you have to ignore the GMaps warning, I was too lazy to put anything else in place since their API changes some time ago; also, not sure it works on mobile).
- koolba 5y ago
  Show me which western country and laws grants the government the right to seize property without due process. If that's really the case there's going to be a massive shift in capital allocation over the next decade. In the USA this is specifically banned by the Constitution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    USA has something very close to that - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... It's universally thought as a "bad thing", and more like a "highway robbery" than something citizens actually want. But when it's the russians, it's suddenly ok.
- throwawayninja 5y ago
  This is a good thing to keep in mind; I originally figured this was outlandishly unfair, but lined up against other sanctions it makes sense. If sovereign nations can prevent profitable trade (aka ownership & exercising of business relations) it makes sense to prevent ownership & exercising of business property.
cd23 5y ago
_bbny 5y ago
Because it helps get rid of Putin and its something we are able to do. Getting rid of Putin is our objective right now. Is it technically ethical and nice? Maybe not, that can be debated. But I don't see why we should care. Russia's also seizing foreign property as well as invading another country, if you do want to have that ethical argument. This is how the world works, I don't think we should get bogged down in whether it's technically entirely OK for those poor Russian-govt-linked billionaires to have less yachts. It's in our power, it's in our interest, and that's how the world works.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  So wait... if we europeans wanted to get rid of eg. clinton for bombing in yugoslavia, and then bush of the middle eastern crap (well, technically both bushes), we can just take away property of random rich americans?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - scotty79 5y ago
    Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them. American oligarchs have total influence over American government. If they allow such thing to happen they are materially responsible for the damage.
    - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
      > Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them. Why mexico or canada? Why not for iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? Jugoslavia? Why only for annexation and not for "just bombing" or even occupation, with yes, tanks? Shelling civillians? Like bombing a civillian train? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing A bus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C5%BEane_bus_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C5%BEane_bus_bombing How about escaping refugees? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Albanian_refugees_near_Gjakova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Albanian_refug... Or a foreign embassy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_C... Civillian tv station? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_the_Radio_Television_of_Serbia_headquarters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_the_Radio_Tele... How about directly custer bombing a city? Twice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1_cluster_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1_cluster_bombing A hospital? https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans/stories/brussels052199.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans... So you agree, that if US/NATO doesn't immediately pull out from eg. syria, that switzerland can take away googles property in Zurich?

cyberpunk 5y ago

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against.

kragen 5y ago
Yeah, I'm not looking forward to when Argentina decides they can seize the property of any US citizen because of the US invasion of Iraq.
raverbashing 5y ago
> just OK to seize private property of individuals Yes, it's a war. Deal with it If they have a problem they can take it up with their boss. > to this is getting pretty fucking scary I believe there are kids in Ukraine who are legitimately scared. Getting your megayacht confiscated is just a first world problem.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  >Yes, it's a war. Deal with it The countries doing the seizing aren't at war with Russia and seem adamant about currently not being at war.
  - avh02 5y ago
    And one of the ways they're trying to keep from joining and turning it in to ww3 is confiscating the opponent's rich people's toys.
  - scrollaway 5y ago
    Russia itself is adamant about not being at war. It's a "special operation", remember? We're trying really hard to toe the line in order not to start a third world war. But we are at war. We're sending aid and weapons every day by the megatons to Ukraine. Ukrainians are fighting on our behalf, so that nuclear escalation does not happen. But as far as Russia is concerned, we are at war, and in fact Putin himself said that the various sanctions and such are "acts of war", even if he hasn't acted on it (yet).

jeanlou 5y ago

This is becoming ridiculous

hbbio 5y ago

Without questioning if seizing the property of Russian billionaires is justified or not, if you believe in equity, the property of American billionaires should also be seized by the other countries for the nearly 200 000 civilian deaths in Iraq (which is much worse, but the US-led war lasted longer). Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Iraqi_civilian_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Ira...

stuaxo 5y ago
What a fantastic idea, billionaires are a symptom of our unequal society. We could have a ceiling of say 50 million quid and you get to say you won capitalism, and everyone throws you a bug party.
- obilgic 5y ago
  so we force productive people to retire early? How do you expect to have Google, Microsoft, Apple Tesla, SpaceX? if their founders were to retire once they have 50m
  - newsclues 5y ago
    People can continue to be productive without meaninglessly adding more digits to their network. Or maybe others would be highly productive if the current people retire.
    - esyir 5y ago
      Hey, why don't you work for me, you won't get money, but you'll get visibility.
  - this_was_posted 5y ago
    No one is forcing them to retire, I for one would be interested to see what these productive people would come up with when they shift their goal from making a great profit to making a great social impact.

newaccount2021 5y ago

vowelless 5y ago

Should the world seize the assets of Silicon Valley billionaires over the US invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and other actions in MENA? Probably.

barney54 5y ago
Why? Because they are American? The case against the Russian oligarchs is better because they are quasi state actors, however, but the case against the Russian oligarchs looks bad too.
- newsclues 5y ago
  Last couple of years big tech in America became quasi state actors, we are seeing it now on social media but the last election was a glaring example.
  - forum_ghost 5y ago
    Last couple of years is just when it became blatantly obvious to pretty much everyone. Google's founders were funded and supervised by DoD employees in their grad school. https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance/ https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci... Here is how "Google Earth" happened: "In-Q-Tel sold 5,636 shares of Google, worth over $2.2 million, on November 15, 2005. The shares were a result of Google's acquisition of Keyhole, Inc, the CIA-funded satellite mapping software now known as Google Earth." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel Facebook launched in 2004. First check from Peter Thiel, who founded Palantir in 2003. DARPA's Lifelog was "cancelled" in 2003. They were designed to be mass surveillance from the start. Some even funded directly be equity investments at pre-seed/seed stage. Others, funded at the research stage.
- Fordec 5y ago
  And Bezos, Bloomberg, Ellison, Thiel, etc. aren't quasi state actors?

bjarneh 5y ago

I always thought: Wow they seized his yacht; I never thought that these people had a bunch of these billion dollar things floating around... So they seized one of his many, many boats. I have to agree with everybody else in this thread, not a big fan of blaming the people of Russia for what their dictator does; even if they are in his so called "inner circle". Perhaps these people can pressure Putin to change his mind, but he doesn't look like a humble man looking for advice.

throwaway290 5y ago
US and Russia unites in cheering for Russian oligarchs being robbed (ordinary Russians, especially the war-supporting pseudo proletariat, never really valued wealth or private property and would happily watch oligarchs parting with their toys; and the US citizens think something productive is being done). The rich themselves would suffer next to no drop in their quality of life. They probably got rich by exploiting Russian resources, but most likely denounce Putin and the war anyway. It is a weird development, but all things considered not the worst thing that's happening.
- bjarneh 5y ago
  > but all things considered not the worst thing that's happening. I agree, not a big thing, and I certainly think people with that kind of wealth know more about hiding money than the rest of us will ever know, and this war will probably not affect their wealth too much. They probably all knew in advance and shorted some Russian stock on the London stock exchange - making a killing. I do find it a bit strange that we "cheer on" this seizure of property based on nationality though; but most probably think it's ok since they are so obscenely rich.
  - throwaway290 5y ago
    Yeah. I am semi-worried about the world turning on regular Russians like myself after that. We are so much easier to deal with than oligarchs with their multiple citizenships and property overseas; for us it's freeze one bank account or card and done. If I am forced to return and work in Russian IT (seeing as I would also not be able to get paid by overseas customers due to sanctions), we both know which government's war this would support.

scrollaway 5y ago

A small tip to HN readers: Whataboutism is key to Russian propaganda. I'm not saying people here are Russian trolls, but if your key reaction to "What's happening in Ukraine is shit and we need to do something NOW" is to say "Oh but what about what the US did in the past?", you're amplifying Russian propaganda, and it may be because you've been hearing Russian-funded articles/media, directly or indirectly. Nothing, in the immediate, will be done about the US's past war crimes. Should something be done? Yes. Is having this conversation now while Europe is at war and civilians are dying every day, hospitals are bombed, and millions are fleeing Ukraine? No, all that serves is to strengthen Russia's position on the web, which is a very important part of their strategy (as it has been for the past 8 years). So I ask of you: 1. Do not amplify Putin's message and propaganda. You want to talk about this stuff? Wait for the war to end. Please. 2. Stop making everything in the world about the USA, FFS. My friends and girlfriend's family are hearing bombs fall every day, why do you have to make this about you?

heavenlyblue 5y ago
I really like the fact that now that RT is banned everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia. Where have you been when RT was doing that brazenly in front of your faces with full acceptance of the governments? It's quite frankly amusing that it took Russia an invasion of Ukraine for that to become illegal, while before (Brexit, etc) it was just "freedom of speech".
- scrollaway 5y ago
  > Where have you been I was always there, speaking out against propaganda, maybe you can check my post history. And I don't know what you're on, but "everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia" is utterly wrong. HN is becoming a very scary, far too pro-Russia place since the past week or so now that the Russians have gotten a better handle on their propaganda. If you have doubts, you can look at my post's score which is hovering around zero, constantly being voted up and down. Opinion in Europe is extremely anti-Russia at this point, but I see that the US media is coming back to its old habits pitting controversy for the sake of clicks. As a result, US opinion went from overwhelmingly anti-Russia to "maybe they're not all bad I mean let's just look at what we did before oh well" in the span of a few days.

paganel 5y ago

Should have probably mentioned "Russian Oligarchs" in the title, didn't see anything about Jeff Bezos (an oligarch by definition, he even has his own MSM thingie) and the like.

asimpletune 5y ago

I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are. That is not the same thing as denying them due process. In other words, it's just a website. On the other hand, the actual due process part happen when the actual authorities of those countries, follow the laws of their country, and seize those assets because of sanctions.

sha256sum 5y ago
> I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are…it's just a website. An upvote alone is not enough to echo this comment. After all this is Hacker News. Not really a great place for insight in due process, but a good one for things OSINT visualization projects
gambler 5y ago
Reframing mass doxing as crowd sourcing doesn't change the basic dynamics of what's going on.
- qaq 5y ago
  Yes those poor cleptocrat oligarchs with their 100 mil+ yachts being doxed
- dwaltrip 5y ago
  Reframing crowd sourcing as mass doxing doesn't change the basic dynamics of what's going on.
aaron695 5y ago
koolba 5y ago
> I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are. That is not the same thing as denying them due process. In other words, it's just a website. So it's not doxxing because they're Russians?

christmm 5y ago

gambler 5y ago

A lot of these "oligarchs" have citizenships of European countries. (Which, in my opinion, they shouldn't have been given in the first place, but that's an entirely different conversation.) So in many cases people are effectively cheering for extra-judicial property seizure of European citizens. The consequences of setting such precedent will go way beyond the scope of the current conflict.

DaltonCoffee 5y ago

The simple fact that the term oligarch has come to be assumed to be preceded by the term Russian, as in the title, speaks volumes. Honest question: Are Russian oligarchs more tied to the Russian gov't than in the USA, like how the RBN is more tied to gov't than American counterparts such as Pegasus/etc.

cabirum 5y ago

Well then, don't act surprised when all Western companies and assets get nationalized.

Fordec 5y ago
Russia already announced they are doing so for any company that shuts down operations (even temporarily) in Russia that have 25% or more foreign control last week. This talk now is in response to Russia acting in that manner first.

5etho 5y ago

well, offtop by Russophilis is getting out of hand. Russia was aggresor, in 1994 in Chechnya IIRC 1999 Chechnya, Georgia 2008, Ukraine 2014, Ukraine 2022. Russian FSB do terrorists attack on their own citizen [1]. Case is simple, goverment is a war crime and was for 28 years. There is a whole generation of young people brainwashed by their parents with roots back to 1800s tsarist propaganda. Russians need to step up and deal with their horrible country past. I, as a polish, kinda has a natural degree in sovietology and Moscow war crimes throughout the ages. I'm sorry that you're dealing with some incovenciencse. But there are people dying right now. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings

thriftwy 5y ago
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
Now do usa! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States#20th-century_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni... But when america does it, it's a "war for peace!" - https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/1101950911_400.jpg https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/11... Look, we all agree war is bad... I live in the balkans, and I had american planes flying above my roof, bombing a country 300km away not that long ago... not to forget all of our "local" wars before that. But saying that americans are any better than russians or vice-versa is a huge lie. Russians atleast had a "weak" period in the 90s, where they didn't do this shit, until they got their economy fixed a bit, americans didn't stop even then.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  The US is not currently invading Ukraine. "Now do USA!" is whataboutism. It's what Putin is using as his justification to invade Ukraine: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/world/europe/putin-ukraine-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/world/europe/putin-ukrain... Please. Stop. Amplifying. Putin's. Message.

wilde 5y ago

So much whattaboutism in this thread. We are at war. Seizing property of the other belligerents is a very normal thing to do in a war. Russia is currently seizing assets from American companies who leave the country. Russia is currently bombing Ukrainian hospitals. This is a somewhat tame escalation in that light.

scrollaway 5y ago
A lot of whataboutism. Many people downvoting the ones reminding those who are sitting safe in their unthreatened homes talking about "both sides" and "due process" that this isn't a fair and honorable fight, this is a dictator expanding into Europe by killing civilians and using his wealth and power to bully politicians and other states. If there are digital archives left over after all this, these are the conversations people in the future will be reading to understand why the fuck Russia was able to get so much implicit support. Ever wonder "how germans let Hitler get away with it"? Future generations will look back at these to understand how Putin got away with so much. Say hi, you're on a book. What year is this?
insickness 5y ago
You complain about whattaboutism then point out that Russia is doing the same thing three sentences later. "We are at war" has been used to justify the worst atrocities in human history.
- wilde 5y ago
  It’s not whattaboutism if they’re linked. The two actions are by belligerents in the same conflict. EDIT: I’m also calling it whattaboutism because I don’t think folks are actually arguing that other nations should have entered the Iraq war on the side of Iraq or ISIS. If they’re legit arguing that, it’s valid (though I disagree).

Wronnay 5y ago

Where was all this reaction in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia?! Russia is TO THIS FUCKING DAY in Georgia and nobody cares about it. Georgia and Ukraine are just 1,167 km = 725 miles away but the West only plays world super police when something near to the EU border happens or if the country has a lot of Oil. I am really sick of the politics of both sides. If the US would have done something in 2008, than Russia wouldn't even dare to touch Ukraine.

scrollaway 5y ago
Shouldn't you be happy there is at least a reaction now? I could say the exact same of Turkey and Cyprus. Being sick of the politics "on both sides" only serves to lessen the CURRENT reaction. It's not useful. You want payback for Georgia? I want payback for a lot of other things that didn't get their deserved political reaction. NOW is better than "let's just not do it cause we didn't do it last time".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
scotty79 5y ago
I'm terribly sorry that it took Georgia and Chechnya for the west to finally get of their asses. I guess third time's the charm. Poland understood what was happening from the first invasion. But western governments have their perception impaired by distance or something. Maybe yoi can't hear bombs that well from under all of that Russian oil. Only the vision of Russian tanks on NATO border and two million of refugees entering EU got through to them.