15 ms·

Comments in the linked thread are spot on. Manufacturers would do anything to avoid abiding spirit of that law to keep their bottom line. What's more depressi

Comments in the linked thread are spot on. Manufacturers would do anything to avoid abiding spirit of that law to keep their bottom line. What's more depressing is "tech enthusiast" circle (eg. in reddit or hardware forums) will be more than eager to rationalize, defend and disseminate any weak technical excuse made up by manufacturers for keeping their anti consumer practices.

vanderZwan 5y ago
True, but the alternative of not pushing back leads to an even more dystopian future so I'll take picking a fight with them
amelius 5y ago
Yeah, but tech enthusiasts typically prefer to stay in their comfy chairs, and in their favorite echo chambers, so they don't have any real world impact.
- hackernewds 5y ago
  Says the tech enthusiast on his armchair?
  - avs733 5y ago
    speaking for myself, not the OP - I am sitting on the ground, my armchair manufacturer went out of business and the padding turned into a brick when their license server went offline.
naoqj 5y ago
I like my phone thin and sturdy and I have no interest in replacing batteries myself.
- bobbean 5y ago
  There's some pretty smart people in the field, don't you think if they are forced to come up with a solution that they will?
- palijer 5y ago
  That's a false dichotomy. User replaceable batteries don't come at the cost of thin and sturdy phones. Laptop manufacturers have been saying that for years, and look at the Framework.
  - noirbot 5y ago
    As someone who bought a Framework to try to support a better model, my #1 complaint about it by far is that the battery is essentially worthless. It maybe gets 3 hours of use on a full charge, and 9 hours while closed and hibernated. I returned a M1 Macbook Air to get the Framework instead, so essentially, I've now paid 50% more to get a laptop with almost infinitely worse battery life when idle and 3-4x worse battery life in use. It's also slower, heavier, thicker, and has a screen resolution that a lot of apps don't know how to use well. At this rate, I better be able to replace the battery because I'm having to do a full charge/discharge cycle multiple times a day if I'm not just constantly leaving it plugged in. I love the idea of it in theory, but it's essentially a worse laptop than even the decade-old Apple laptops that did have replaceable batteries.
    - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
      You seem to think that Framework can fix their battery by gluing it in and welding the case shut?
      - noirbot 5y ago
        I don't know, but whatever they did has made for a decidedly worse laptop, and I assume they didn't set out to make a laptop that had an essentially unusable battery. I'm assuming good intent on their part that this is the best laptop they could make with the parts/design constraints. I'll be happy if the v2 of it is better though.
        stolsvik 5y ago
        Is it the battery, or the power usage of the laptop? The battery is a pretty physical thing, storing that many Watt-hours. If you have a 100 Wh battery, Apple uses 10 W and Framework 50 W, then you’ll get a 5x difference on the same battery.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  My Note 3 with replaceable battery was 8.3 mm thick. How thin is your non-battery replaceable phone?
  - naoqj 5y ago
    7.4 mm. (iphone 12)
    - frenchman99 5y ago
      Is 0.9mm really worth throwing away so many phones? It's important to remind ourselves that the metals in these phones are mined in part by people with very difficult life conditions, often so bad that they die on the job. We ought to be able to repair what they contributed to build instead of asking them to mine yet another pound of metal just so we can save 0.9mm. This will also reduce need for mining, which creates all sorts of pollution.
      - naoqj 5y ago
        I am going to give you a candid answer: I don't give a shit. That answer is going to sound unpopular here, but deep down is how most people feel.
        ensan 5y ago
        When did how most people “feel deep down” become a sound policy making strategy? To be candid: in some matters, the regulators should not give a shit about how you want your phone. Good for EU and their mandates.
        naoqj 5y ago
        I don't understand. Are you saying that the government should do whatever they want even if it goes against what the majority of the population wants? That is everything but democratic.
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  Just ask for someone else to replace your battery, these laws wouldn’t prevent that. Making better designs to allow for easier to replace batteries isn’t crazy hard either, current designs already tend toward that. This proposal seem to only mandate that “users should be able to exchange them with commercially available tools.” so it leaves a pretty wide array of options for the manufacturers. They could probably even make their own custom tools available if this is what it takes yo keep phones thin and sturdy as you want them.
- doctorwho42 5y ago
  You can have both thin, sturdy, and replaceable batteries. It really isn't that hard. Maybe a few extra days of design and development by a team of engineers. If that... Once you come up with your preferred design, it more or less can be replicated to every other similar device.
  - catlifeonmars 5y ago
    I agree with your sentiment overall, but “a few extra days” is pretty unrealistic. Probably a few extra weeks at best.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      > I agree with your sentiment overall, but “a few extra days” is pretty unrealistic. Probably a few extra weeks at best. Still not a problem: The examples upthread of phones from many different manufacturers that had replaceable batteries, headphone jacks, and card readers and were watertight a decade or more ago show that those weeks have already been invested and paid for.
agumonkey 5y ago
what kind of excuse ? i'm curious
- goosedragons 5y ago
  Anything that justifies it. You still see people claim that losing the headphone jack on the iPhone was "worth it" so it could be waterproof without port covers despite the fact phones with both already existed before it. So expect a lot of claims about how people NEED their laptop to be 1 cm thick, that by not having a removable battery it can have more battery, etc.
  - Multicomp 5y ago
    I still look to the Galaxy S5 Active[1] for a phone that puts to the lie the claims that smart devices need to entirely lose ports and functionality in order to be water resistant. Tidily enough it had all 3 of the so-called 'must go' features and was still water resistant. 1. MicroSD card 1. Headphone Jack 1. Removable battery If it was possible in 2014 and the days of Micro USB, it's possible today. [1] https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s5_active-6356.php https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s5_active-6356.php
    - Bud 5y ago
      "Water resistant" is a meaningless, vague term, of course. The question is how resistant. That phone was IP67 rated. Current iPhones are IP68 rated, which is markedly superior.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        'Superior' is meaningless, vague judgement of course. The questions are how resistant does it need to be, and how resistant can it be? Does anyone care that iPhone is IP68 instead of IP67? Does anything stop you drom making a phone with a headphone jack and microSD card that will survive submersion to the depth of 2 miles?
      - raron 5y ago
loeg 5y ago
I like my electronics waterproof. That’s a hell of a lot harder with replaceable batteries.
- anuvrat1 5y ago
  How can people forget Samsung Galaxy S5, IP67 with removable battery.
  - vvillena 5y ago
    Or the old Motorola Defy from 2010. IP67, removable battery, and near indestructible.
    - Izkata 5y ago
      Or, before smartphones, waterproof with removable batteries was really common.
- doctorwho42 5y ago
  Define "hell of a lot harder" Phone replaceable battery; a rubber gasket and 3-4 screws - waterproof up to 5-6ft. Though I guess you could get away with a cheaper clip based approach... Like some cheap Chinese ham radios. I had a friend drop one in a lake, then pull it out (maybe 3ft deep). You wanna know what part broke? The speaker - it was a bit muffled, but that's due to probably water penetration and pressure on that membrane. It really is shocking how many people think it's "hard" to waterproof a small battery if it can be removed. Tupperware is water proof, doesn't cost a lot to make. Why would a battery encased in plastic be any harder? Especially for multi-billion dollar companies who can afford to scoop up some of the best engineers and have them work on consumer devices.
- nicolast 5y ago
  GoPro would like a word.
lamontcg 5y ago
Comments in the linked thread are what is annoying about nerd fights. This is a good and necessary first step. Focusing on all the ways it could be circumvented isn't a rationale for not doing it, they are all just rationales for strengthening it.
nickysielicki 5y ago
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever worked for a company where you were involved with making physical things? Making things is an incredibly difficult dance between electrical engineers, purchasers, manufacturers, sales and product managers, and logistics teams. I think that people who work exclusively in software often trivialize how difficult it is to choose how many of something to produce, how many extra pieces to keep around for repairs, etc., because they took some EE classes in school and they think that they basically understand the process of making boards. The reality is the actual engineering is usually the easy part. The hard part is logistics, and it's not something that you can just outsource to a dedicated purchaser and be done with. Software people don't actually have something analogous. For everyone that works in hardware, the last 2 years has been hell in terms of quickly redesigning things around parts availability, often stripping functionality entirely and reevaluating how it can be done generically in software without a certain chip. We make PoE devices and we can't get validated ethernet PHYs. Basically, what I'm saying is this: as someone who sees how things are made, the idea that there's some guiding principle of being evil or some principle of maximizing overall bottom line at all costs and making shit products is just so far from the truth that it makes my head spin. Things suck because it's hard.
- andrei_says_ 5y ago
  I totally get that. I also remember the little Nokias with replaceable batteries. And I’m wondering - wouldn’t standardizing batteries make the availability issue easier to solve? Could you - from the viewpoint of your expertise help me understand why this is something that wouldn’t work? I know my view is pretty simplistic.
- max51 5y ago
  >The reality is the actual engineering is usually the easy part. The hard part is logistics I disagree. It's the opposite. If you have a hard logistic problem to solve, there is a very large number of companies who can solve all your issue very quickly. Moving cargo around the globe, renting buildings, buying off-the-self industrial equipment, etc.. that's a problem that has been solved a long time ago. All you need is money and a few phone calls. Designing a good product on the other hand is not something that gets a lot more complicated and most companies can't do it even with best efforts, good talents, and lots of cash.

vanderZwan 5y ago

True, but the alternative of not pushing back leads to an even more dystopian future so I'll take picking a fight with them

amelius 5y ago

Yeah, but tech enthusiasts typically prefer to stay in their comfy chairs, and in their favorite echo chambers, so they don't have any real world impact.

hackernewds 5y ago
Says the tech enthusiast on his armchair?
- avs733 5y ago
  speaking for myself, not the OP - I am sitting on the ground, my armchair manufacturer went out of business and the padding turned into a brick when their license server went offline.

naoqj 5y ago

I like my phone thin and sturdy and I have no interest in replacing batteries myself.

bobbean 5y ago
There's some pretty smart people in the field, don't you think if they are forced to come up with a solution that they will?
palijer 5y ago
That's a false dichotomy. User replaceable batteries don't come at the cost of thin and sturdy phones. Laptop manufacturers have been saying that for years, and look at the Framework.
- noirbot 5y ago
  As someone who bought a Framework to try to support a better model, my #1 complaint about it by far is that the battery is essentially worthless. It maybe gets 3 hours of use on a full charge, and 9 hours while closed and hibernated. I returned a M1 Macbook Air to get the Framework instead, so essentially, I've now paid 50% more to get a laptop with almost infinitely worse battery life when idle and 3-4x worse battery life in use. It's also slower, heavier, thicker, and has a screen resolution that a lot of apps don't know how to use well. At this rate, I better be able to replace the battery because I'm having to do a full charge/discharge cycle multiple times a day if I'm not just constantly leaving it plugged in. I love the idea of it in theory, but it's essentially a worse laptop than even the decade-old Apple laptops that did have replaceable batteries.
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    You seem to think that Framework can fix their battery by gluing it in and welding the case shut?
    - noirbot 5y ago
      I don't know, but whatever they did has made for a decidedly worse laptop, and I assume they didn't set out to make a laptop that had an essentially unusable battery. I'm assuming good intent on their part that this is the best laptop they could make with the parts/design constraints. I'll be happy if the v2 of it is better though.
      - stolsvik 5y ago
        Is it the battery, or the power usage of the laptop? The battery is a pretty physical thing, storing that many Watt-hours. If you have a 100 Wh battery, Apple uses 10 W and Framework 50 W, then you’ll get a 5x difference on the same battery.
dotancohen 5y ago
My Note 3 with replaceable battery was 8.3 mm thick. How thin is your non-battery replaceable phone?
- naoqj 5y ago
  7.4 mm. (iphone 12)
  - frenchman99 5y ago
    Is 0.9mm really worth throwing away so many phones? It's important to remind ourselves that the metals in these phones are mined in part by people with very difficult life conditions, often so bad that they die on the job. We ought to be able to repair what they contributed to build instead of asking them to mine yet another pound of metal just so we can save 0.9mm. This will also reduce need for mining, which creates all sorts of pollution.
    - naoqj 5y ago
      I am going to give you a candid answer: I don't give a shit. That answer is going to sound unpopular here, but deep down is how most people feel.
      - ensan 5y ago
        When did how most people “feel deep down” become a sound policy making strategy? To be candid: in some matters, the regulators should not give a shit about how you want your phone. Good for EU and their mandates.
        naoqj 5y ago
        I don't understand. Are you saying that the government should do whatever they want even if it goes against what the majority of the population wants? That is everything but democratic.
makeitdouble 5y ago
Just ask for someone else to replace your battery, these laws wouldn’t prevent that. Making better designs to allow for easier to replace batteries isn’t crazy hard either, current designs already tend toward that. This proposal seem to only mandate that “users should be able to exchange them with commercially available tools.” so it leaves a pretty wide array of options for the manufacturers. They could probably even make their own custom tools available if this is what it takes yo keep phones thin and sturdy as you want them.
doctorwho42 5y ago
You can have both thin, sturdy, and replaceable batteries. It really isn't that hard. Maybe a few extra days of design and development by a team of engineers. If that... Once you come up with your preferred design, it more or less can be replicated to every other similar device.
- catlifeonmars 5y ago
  I agree with your sentiment overall, but “a few extra days” is pretty unrealistic. Probably a few extra weeks at best.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > I agree with your sentiment overall, but “a few extra days” is pretty unrealistic. Probably a few extra weeks at best. Still not a problem: The examples upthread of phones from many different manufacturers that had replaceable batteries, headphone jacks, and card readers and were watertight a decade or more ago show that those weeks have already been invested and paid for.

agumonkey 5y ago

what kind of excuse ? i'm curious

goosedragons 5y ago
Anything that justifies it. You still see people claim that losing the headphone jack on the iPhone was "worth it" so it could be waterproof without port covers despite the fact phones with both already existed before it. So expect a lot of claims about how people NEED their laptop to be 1 cm thick, that by not having a removable battery it can have more battery, etc.
- Multicomp 5y ago
  I still look to the Galaxy S5 Active[1] for a phone that puts to the lie the claims that smart devices need to entirely lose ports and functionality in order to be water resistant. Tidily enough it had all 3 of the so-called 'must go' features and was still water resistant. 1. MicroSD card 1. Headphone Jack 1. Removable battery If it was possible in 2014 and the days of Micro USB, it's possible today. [1] https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s5_active-6356.php https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s5_active-6356.php
  - Bud 5y ago
    "Water resistant" is a meaningless, vague term, of course. The question is how resistant. That phone was IP67 rated. Current iPhones are IP68 rated, which is markedly superior.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      'Superior' is meaningless, vague judgement of course. The questions are how resistant does it need to be, and how resistant can it be? Does anyone care that iPhone is IP68 instead of IP67? Does anything stop you drom making a phone with a headphone jack and microSD card that will survive submersion to the depth of 2 miles?
    - raron 5y ago

loeg 5y ago

I like my electronics waterproof. That’s a hell of a lot harder with replaceable batteries.

anuvrat1 5y ago
How can people forget Samsung Galaxy S5, IP67 with removable battery.
- vvillena 5y ago
  Or the old Motorola Defy from 2010. IP67, removable battery, and near indestructible.
  - Izkata 5y ago
    Or, before smartphones, waterproof with removable batteries was really common.
doctorwho42 5y ago
Define "hell of a lot harder" Phone replaceable battery; a rubber gasket and 3-4 screws - waterproof up to 5-6ft. Though I guess you could get away with a cheaper clip based approach... Like some cheap Chinese ham radios. I had a friend drop one in a lake, then pull it out (maybe 3ft deep). You wanna know what part broke? The speaker - it was a bit muffled, but that's due to probably water penetration and pressure on that membrane. It really is shocking how many people think it's "hard" to waterproof a small battery if it can be removed. Tupperware is water proof, doesn't cost a lot to make. Why would a battery encased in plastic be any harder? Especially for multi-billion dollar companies who can afford to scoop up some of the best engineers and have them work on consumer devices.
nicolast 5y ago
GoPro would like a word.

lamontcg 5y ago

Comments in the linked thread are what is annoying about nerd fights. This is a good and necessary first step. Focusing on all the ways it could be circumvented isn't a rationale for not doing it, they are all just rationales for strengthening it.

nickysielicki 5y ago

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever worked for a company where you were involved with making physical things? Making things is an incredibly difficult dance between electrical engineers, purchasers, manufacturers, sales and product managers, and logistics teams. I think that people who work exclusively in software often trivialize how difficult it is to choose how many of something to produce, how many extra pieces to keep around for repairs, etc., because they took some EE classes in school and they think that they basically understand the process of making boards. The reality is the actual engineering is usually the easy part. The hard part is logistics, and it's not something that you can just outsource to a dedicated purchaser and be done with. Software people don't actually have something analogous. For everyone that works in hardware, the last 2 years has been hell in terms of quickly redesigning things around parts availability, often stripping functionality entirely and reevaluating how it can be done generically in software without a certain chip. We make PoE devices and we can't get validated ethernet PHYs. Basically, what I'm saying is this: as someone who sees how things are made, the idea that there's some guiding principle of being evil or some principle of maximizing overall bottom line at all costs and making shit products is just so far from the truth that it makes my head spin. Things suck because it's hard.

andrei_says_ 5y ago
I totally get that. I also remember the little Nokias with replaceable batteries. And I’m wondering - wouldn’t standardizing batteries make the availability issue easier to solve? Could you - from the viewpoint of your expertise help me understand why this is something that wouldn’t work? I know my view is pretty simplistic.
max51 5y ago
>The reality is the actual engineering is usually the easy part. The hard part is logistics I disagree. It's the opposite. If you have a hard logistic problem to solve, there is a very large number of companies who can solve all your issue very quickly. Moving cargo around the globe, renting buildings, buying off-the-self industrial equipment, etc.. that's a problem that has been solved a long time ago. All you need is money and a few phone calls. Designing a good product on the other hand is not something that gets a lot more complicated and most companies can't do it even with best efforts, good talents, and lots of cash.