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> apps like Uber and Lyft don’t give her the details of a ride, such as its distance, expected time, and pay, until after she’s accepted it – at which point she

> apps like Uber and Lyft don’t give her the details of a ride, such as its distance, expected time, and pay, until after she’s accepted it – at which point she has little choice but to follow through, even if it loses her money. > “I find out that it’s going to take me 45 minutes to go five miles, and I’m going to get about $5 for the ride. My only choice then is to either basically do volunteer work by accepting the ride, or canceling it. And we are disciplined, and threatened with being terminated, if we cancel it. >“So don’t call me an independent contractor, because that’s not what we are.” As a former Uber/Lyft driver I exaggerate when I say I've read a million words Gig jobs, but the above is a good summary of the problem. You're not shown in advance what the ride is and then you're penalized for cancelling it. One day you can't log in anymore but they won't say why, but you know from talking to other drivers that you get "fired" after cancelling too many rides. There are other problems, such as not being compensated when gas prices go through the roof, but there is a hidden problem that many drivers don't take into account: Every mile on your car decreases it's value and if you do the calculations you might find out you're taking equity out of your car and putting it in your pocket, so you're not making money and you might be selling your car bit by bit for pennies on the dollar.

achow 5y ago
On the other hand, in India canceling of rides by drivers is creating huge pain to riders. Commuters are up in arms over the increasing number of cancellations on app-based services such as Ola and Uber. More often than not drivers, after accepting a ride, call up the passenger to ask about his or her destination before cancelling. They are unwilling to come to certain destinations and are not ready to pick up passengers in residential areas located away from main roads, said one regular user of Ola and Uber. https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/bengaluru-commuters-get-tired-of-being-taken-for-a-ride/article65062548.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/bengaluru-com...
- okareaman 5y ago
  If they showed the driver the ride details beforehand, drivers could not accept the ride and passengers would never know. That's what would happen if drivers were truely independent. But by forcing the driver to cancel and irritating customers, Uber and Lyft are able to use this as a stick to discipline "independent" drivers. Note that drivers wouldn't cancel profitable rides, only rides that don't make them or cause them to lose money. I'm not sure why anyone has a problem with this.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > If they showed the driver the ride details beforehand, drivers could not accept the ride and passengers would never know Then you go back to the taxi problem of there being no rides from or to predominantly black neighbourhoods.
  - achow 5y ago
    Not necessary. In India there is law that if you are running cabs on govt license then you cannot refuse passengers. If you as a cab driver do refuse (for whatever reason) then traffic police can take action (article mentions this). There must be reason that this condition has been put into place.
    - zdragnar 5y ago
      My gut instinct is that it is a protection from caste discrimination, that is really just a wild guess on my part.
      - achow 5y ago
        Absurd. It is about passenger safety. The article itself mentions that people are stranded late night and one driver after another refusing to pickup the rider. Think women, emergency,.. etc.
        Ekaros 5y ago
        Then offer to pay more. There is always a price point where someone is ready to provide the service. This should be in the system, maybe provide all details up front and then include extra payment which the rider can agree to pay to get their service, free market.
        kelseyfrog 5y ago
        None of that is false, but the higher-order effects are socially unacceptable.
farmerstan 5y ago
Cancelling a ride destroys the entire system. It can’t be allowed otherwise what’s the point if drivers can pick and choose their rides? The point is they should be compensated fairly for it. If they simply don’t want to drive someplace then they should stop driving for the platform. Taxi drivers have the exact same rule. Taxi drivers aren’t allowed to reject rides once you’re inside.
- okareaman 5y ago
  On the face of it, I agree with you. Customer experience suffers when drivers can cherry pick rides. That's how Uber would put it. I wasn't making a living wage so I no longer driver for them.
  - dapids 5y ago
    And that's the way it should be. But many stick it out like their life depends on it, because somehow it usually does, and getting any other job is apparently out of the question. Good on your for deciding enough is enough.
- jodrellblank 5y ago
  The point is that if drivers have to drive where Uber tells them for the money Uber wants to pay, or quit for good, then they are employees. Contractors can read a contract and refuse it if they don't like it, on a contract-by-contract basis, or negotiate more money for difficult or unpleasant contracts. If Uber drivers can't do those things and must drive the place the company wants them to go for the money the company wants to pay, they are employees by another name and deserve employee protections and rights. > "It can’t be allowed otherwise what’s the point if drivers can pick and choose their rides?" The point would be that the driver chooses to do work which is profitable to them and ignore work which is not. Isn't that what contractors would do with work contracts? The fact that normal people drive other normal people around, and Uber the company extracts enough money from being the middleman in this to fund lobbying against the driver's interests, and does so, is so twisted.
  - 5y ago
scarface74 5y ago
That’s the entire purpose of supply and demand based pricing. If enough drivers see it isn’t worthwhile to drive for Uber, prices should adjust dynamically.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Or the ride-sharing company should match customer to providers. On provider based pricing. Let them to evaluate the case and bid on it what they feel is reasonable. At right price there is always someone providing a service.
  - scarface74 5y ago
    How is what you are describing different than what Uber is doing? Personally, under the circumstances when I take Uber, I don’t care about how much they charge and I tip the maximum amount allowed by our guidelines - 20%. 90% of the time when I take Uber, it’s for business travel and I’m getting reimbursed (consulting). The other 10% of the time I’m on vacation where I expect to spend stupidly or going into town from the burbs for “date night” and we don’t want to worry about parking or DUIs. I live in a very car dependent metro area so I don’t have a clear picture of when most people use Uber for day to day use. Well, I guess there was the couple of years we were spending $350/month on Uber for our son to get back and forth to work and go friends because it was cheaper than car+insurance.
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      Uber dictates the price and hides the ride details. It is not the driver seeing the mass they need to transport and from where to where. Two clear details that should affect pricing. In system I am describing the driver could make offer after the rider has provided pick-up location, the drop location and how much mass or passengers they want to move. They could include in offer terms like cancelation fees, per kilometer cost, per time cost. Or just lump sum offer. And potential penalty fees if the rider doesn't provide all information, or miss represents something. Also could be included any fees such as cleanup. I see no reason why Uber should have anything to say about how the drivers price their service. And it is up to rider to either accept these terms, wait for better terms or use alternative transport such as walking.
bathtub365 5y ago
Is it crazy to suggest that taxi drivers should be paid hourly rather than by fare? I know it’s a radical departure from the business model but what are the downsides?
- forty 5y ago
  If it drives faster it uses more gas so it should be taken into account. Duration only based price would not take that into account. As a side effect it would be an incentive for drivers to drive slower. Would be a net win for the planet and for safety but maybe not for the customer :)
- mrtksn 5y ago
  I think the economics might work, as we already know he demand and the costs we should be able to ballpark the average hourly pay and simply switch to it. It would alter the experience, probably for the better for the most part. The taxi drivers wouldn't be acting like a-holes on the roads since they wouldn't need to squeeze as much as miles in the workday. However, I'm sure that it would create a lot of unintended disruption too, that might be good and bad. It might turn out that you can't find drivers for the job. AFAIK, this job is preferred by many people who need lots money fast or people who are between jobs, already having a job or people who wouldn't be able to get a proper job for one reason or another. It can be tricky.
  - clove 5y ago
    Off-topic, but can you check the booking.com thread again? Or perhaps give me your contact information?
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      Let me check
- beecafe 5y ago
  Citymapper tried this in London, but they had to shut it down.
lhorie 5y ago
I work at Uber. Opinions are my own. Etc. Here's my two cents: people in the company are acutely aware of this problem. Insiders legitimately want drivers to have flexibility without fear of penalties, and there are some major projects in the works to try to make things better for drivers. The challenge from the company's perspective is that historically, people game the system and tragedy of commons scenarios can quickly become prevalent. For example, if you show high profit heat maps, you risk drivers flocking there and the balance of service reliability dropping elsewhere. So changes like showing drop-off locations or allowing more driver choice in the matching algorithm need to designed very carefully and tested extensively in pilot programs to avoid degenerate scenarios. Many changes are difficult to implement quickly when they affect multiple moving parts, e.g. the recent fuel surcharge. Driver payment is mind bogglingly complicated due to regulation differences in different places. Ironically, another problem that insiders have been vocal about is the perception the Uber is bad at communicating with the public about positive changes in the platform. I'm sure when Uber rolls out these new programs designed to make driver life better, people will find some way to criticize them, or it'll just not garner enough upvotes, because who cares about stories about companies listening to feedback for once? Not really sure what Uber can do about this, tbh.
- thr0wawayf00 5y ago
  > The challenge from the company's perspective is that historically, people game the system and tragedy of commons scenarios can quickly become prevalent. It drives me crazy that when we talk about gig workers acting in their best interest, it's "gaming the system" but when companies like Uber operate (read: manipulates) a market in their best interests, it's just SOP. > I'm sure when Uber rolls out these new programs designed to make driver life better, people will find some way to criticize them This is essentially a captive market and Uber's best interests are often not aligned with that of the drivers, as you perfectly detail above. As long as that remains true, there is always going to be valid criticism against this kind of model.
  - hdhcndk 5y ago
    Isn't that always the case? You are just treated worse when you have less money. How's one perceived if high earner hires professional help to take advantage of every loop hole in the system and how's one perceived if they take advantage of a loop hole in the system with say food stamps. Neither is breaking the law.
dehrmann 5y ago
You don't want to have the NYC taxi issue of drivers refusing to drive to the Bronx, so I'd do things like - Have a "end my shift soon" button that can be used once every 24 hours that will only connect you with riders that get you closer to your home - Allow drivers to define ~1-hour radius "work zones" where fares have to pay for the return trip, a la EWR to NYC taxis. This surcharge is fed into driver selection ranking. - Pay for miles + time. I'm not sure how to structure it because Uber wants to show the fee to riders up-front and commit to it, pay the actual cost to drivers, but keep the contractor relationship. Maybe structure it as "fare insurance?" The idea is for both riders and drivers to get the price they expected, and for Uber, with its massive ride volume, to provide a good p95 experience on both sides.
- iudqnolq 5y ago
  In my opinion that's a perfectly sensible policy for employees, but makes a mockery of the idea of an independent contractor.
agilob 5y ago
>apps like Uber and Lyft don’t give her the details of a ride, such as its distance, expected time, and pay, until after she’s accepted it Is it the same in Europe? Feels very American thing to me, I recently learnt that many shops don't show prices of products, like grocery, and gas stations also hide price when inconvenient. It's beyond my imagination to go to Lidl to buy a cake and learn at checkout how much it costs
- jrockway 5y ago
  What stores in the US don't show prices? I think you're conflating that with taxes not being included in advertised prices. That is common, but it's not like the tax rate is arbitrary, you can calculate exactly what you'll pay from the prevailing tax rate and the price on the shelf.

achow 5y ago

On the other hand, in India canceling of rides by drivers is creating huge pain to riders. Commuters are up in arms over the increasing number of cancellations on app-based services such as Ola and Uber. More often than not drivers, after accepting a ride, call up the passenger to ask about his or her destination before cancelling. They are unwilling to come to certain destinations and are not ready to pick up passengers in residential areas located away from main roads, said one regular user of Ola and Uber. https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/bengaluru-commuters-get-tired-of-being-taken-for-a-ride/article65062548.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/bengaluru-com...

okareaman 5y ago
If they showed the driver the ride details beforehand, drivers could not accept the ride and passengers would never know. That's what would happen if drivers were truely independent. But by forcing the driver to cancel and irritating customers, Uber and Lyft are able to use this as a stick to discipline "independent" drivers. Note that drivers wouldn't cancel profitable rides, only rides that don't make them or cause them to lose money. I'm not sure why anyone has a problem with this.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > If they showed the driver the ride details beforehand, drivers could not accept the ride and passengers would never know Then you go back to the taxi problem of there being no rides from or to predominantly black neighbourhoods.
- achow 5y ago
  Not necessary. In India there is law that if you are running cabs on govt license then you cannot refuse passengers. If you as a cab driver do refuse (for whatever reason) then traffic police can take action (article mentions this). There must be reason that this condition has been put into place.
  - zdragnar 5y ago
    My gut instinct is that it is a protection from caste discrimination, that is really just a wild guess on my part.
    - achow 5y ago
      Absurd. It is about passenger safety. The article itself mentions that people are stranded late night and one driver after another refusing to pickup the rider. Think women, emergency,.. etc.
      - Ekaros 5y ago
        Then offer to pay more. There is always a price point where someone is ready to provide the service. This should be in the system, maybe provide all details up front and then include extra payment which the rider can agree to pay to get their service, free market.
        kelseyfrog 5y ago
        None of that is false, but the higher-order effects are socially unacceptable.

farmerstan 5y ago

Cancelling a ride destroys the entire system. It can’t be allowed otherwise what’s the point if drivers can pick and choose their rides? The point is they should be compensated fairly for it. If they simply don’t want to drive someplace then they should stop driving for the platform. Taxi drivers have the exact same rule. Taxi drivers aren’t allowed to reject rides once you’re inside.

okareaman 5y ago
On the face of it, I agree with you. Customer experience suffers when drivers can cherry pick rides. That's how Uber would put it. I wasn't making a living wage so I no longer driver for them.
- dapids 5y ago
  And that's the way it should be. But many stick it out like their life depends on it, because somehow it usually does, and getting any other job is apparently out of the question. Good on your for deciding enough is enough.
jodrellblank 5y ago
The point is that if drivers have to drive where Uber tells them for the money Uber wants to pay, or quit for good, then they are employees. Contractors can read a contract and refuse it if they don't like it, on a contract-by-contract basis, or negotiate more money for difficult or unpleasant contracts. If Uber drivers can't do those things and must drive the place the company wants them to go for the money the company wants to pay, they are employees by another name and deserve employee protections and rights. > "It can’t be allowed otherwise what’s the point if drivers can pick and choose their rides?" The point would be that the driver chooses to do work which is profitable to them and ignore work which is not. Isn't that what contractors would do with work contracts? The fact that normal people drive other normal people around, and Uber the company extracts enough money from being the middleman in this to fund lobbying against the driver's interests, and does so, is so twisted.
- 5y ago

scarface74 5y ago

That’s the entire purpose of supply and demand based pricing. If enough drivers see it isn’t worthwhile to drive for Uber, prices should adjust dynamically.

Ekaros 5y ago
Or the ride-sharing company should match customer to providers. On provider based pricing. Let them to evaluate the case and bid on it what they feel is reasonable. At right price there is always someone providing a service.
- scarface74 5y ago
  How is what you are describing different than what Uber is doing? Personally, under the circumstances when I take Uber, I don’t care about how much they charge and I tip the maximum amount allowed by our guidelines - 20%. 90% of the time when I take Uber, it’s for business travel and I’m getting reimbursed (consulting). The other 10% of the time I’m on vacation where I expect to spend stupidly or going into town from the burbs for “date night” and we don’t want to worry about parking or DUIs. I live in a very car dependent metro area so I don’t have a clear picture of when most people use Uber for day to day use. Well, I guess there was the couple of years we were spending $350/month on Uber for our son to get back and forth to work and go friends because it was cheaper than car+insurance.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Uber dictates the price and hides the ride details. It is not the driver seeing the mass they need to transport and from where to where. Two clear details that should affect pricing. In system I am describing the driver could make offer after the rider has provided pick-up location, the drop location and how much mass or passengers they want to move. They could include in offer terms like cancelation fees, per kilometer cost, per time cost. Or just lump sum offer. And potential penalty fees if the rider doesn't provide all information, or miss represents something. Also could be included any fees such as cleanup. I see no reason why Uber should have anything to say about how the drivers price their service. And it is up to rider to either accept these terms, wait for better terms or use alternative transport such as walking.

bathtub365 5y ago

Is it crazy to suggest that taxi drivers should be paid hourly rather than by fare? I know it’s a radical departure from the business model but what are the downsides?

forty 5y ago
If it drives faster it uses more gas so it should be taken into account. Duration only based price would not take that into account. As a side effect it would be an incentive for drivers to drive slower. Would be a net win for the planet and for safety but maybe not for the customer :)
mrtksn 5y ago
I think the economics might work, as we already know he demand and the costs we should be able to ballpark the average hourly pay and simply switch to it. It would alter the experience, probably for the better for the most part. The taxi drivers wouldn't be acting like a-holes on the roads since they wouldn't need to squeeze as much as miles in the workday. However, I'm sure that it would create a lot of unintended disruption too, that might be good and bad. It might turn out that you can't find drivers for the job. AFAIK, this job is preferred by many people who need lots money fast or people who are between jobs, already having a job or people who wouldn't be able to get a proper job for one reason or another. It can be tricky.
- clove 5y ago
  Off-topic, but can you check the booking.com thread again? Or perhaps give me your contact information?
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    Let me check
beecafe 5y ago
Citymapper tried this in London, but they had to shut it down.

lhorie 5y ago

I work at Uber. Opinions are my own. Etc. Here's my two cents: people in the company are acutely aware of this problem. Insiders legitimately want drivers to have flexibility without fear of penalties, and there are some major projects in the works to try to make things better for drivers. The challenge from the company's perspective is that historically, people game the system and tragedy of commons scenarios can quickly become prevalent. For example, if you show high profit heat maps, you risk drivers flocking there and the balance of service reliability dropping elsewhere. So changes like showing drop-off locations or allowing more driver choice in the matching algorithm need to designed very carefully and tested extensively in pilot programs to avoid degenerate scenarios. Many changes are difficult to implement quickly when they affect multiple moving parts, e.g. the recent fuel surcharge. Driver payment is mind bogglingly complicated due to regulation differences in different places. Ironically, another problem that insiders have been vocal about is the perception the Uber is bad at communicating with the public about positive changes in the platform. I'm sure when Uber rolls out these new programs designed to make driver life better, people will find some way to criticize them, or it'll just not garner enough upvotes, because who cares about stories about companies listening to feedback for once? Not really sure what Uber can do about this, tbh.

thr0wawayf00 5y ago
> The challenge from the company's perspective is that historically, people game the system and tragedy of commons scenarios can quickly become prevalent. It drives me crazy that when we talk about gig workers acting in their best interest, it's "gaming the system" but when companies like Uber operate (read: manipulates) a market in their best interests, it's just SOP. > I'm sure when Uber rolls out these new programs designed to make driver life better, people will find some way to criticize them This is essentially a captive market and Uber's best interests are often not aligned with that of the drivers, as you perfectly detail above. As long as that remains true, there is always going to be valid criticism against this kind of model.
- hdhcndk 5y ago
  Isn't that always the case? You are just treated worse when you have less money. How's one perceived if high earner hires professional help to take advantage of every loop hole in the system and how's one perceived if they take advantage of a loop hole in the system with say food stamps. Neither is breaking the law.

dehrmann 5y ago

You don't want to have the NYC taxi issue of drivers refusing to drive to the Bronx, so I'd do things like - Have a "end my shift soon" button that can be used once every 24 hours that will only connect you with riders that get you closer to your home - Allow drivers to define ~1-hour radius "work zones" where fares have to pay for the return trip, a la EWR to NYC taxis. This surcharge is fed into driver selection ranking. - Pay for miles + time. I'm not sure how to structure it because Uber wants to show the fee to riders up-front and commit to it, pay the actual cost to drivers, but keep the contractor relationship. Maybe structure it as "fare insurance?" The idea is for both riders and drivers to get the price they expected, and for Uber, with its massive ride volume, to provide a good p95 experience on both sides.

iudqnolq 5y ago
In my opinion that's a perfectly sensible policy for employees, but makes a mockery of the idea of an independent contractor.

agilob 5y ago

>apps like Uber and Lyft don’t give her the details of a ride, such as its distance, expected time, and pay, until after she’s accepted it Is it the same in Europe? Feels very American thing to me, I recently learnt that many shops don't show prices of products, like grocery, and gas stations also hide price when inconvenient. It's beyond my imagination to go to Lidl to buy a cake and learn at checkout how much it costs

jrockway 5y ago
What stores in the US don't show prices? I think you're conflating that with taxes not being included in advertised prices. That is common, but it's not like the tax rate is arbitrary, you can calculate exactly what you'll pay from the prevailing tax rate and the price on the shelf.