7 ms·

> These men are known in Russia as the “siloviki” — “men of force”, or perhaps even, in the Irish phrase, “hard men”. Just to clarify. The word "siloviki" made

by ordu 5y ago

> These men are known in Russia as the “siloviki” — “men of force”, or perhaps even, in the Irish phrase, “hard men”. Just to clarify. The word "siloviki" made from "силовые структуры", which may be translated literally as "structures of force", or less literally but preserving some meaning "armed organizations" (maybe "armed forces", but I think that in English "armed forces" doesn't include the likes of police and security guards). It refers to police, military or any other organization with a dress code that requires a gun.

twelve40 5y ago
yes, definitely not "hard men", more like what you described, except various intelligence agencies who don't always wear a gun, are also included.
- ordu 5y ago
  Well, FSB is an intelligence agency, and they wear guns or at least have a license to wear gun. Though I cannot argue. I rely on my intuitive knowledge of Russian which is hard to use as a rational argument. This knowledge tells me that "силовые структуры"/"structures of force" are organizations that use force to solve problems. And I think that all of them wear guns. But I may be wrong with that last statement, and moreover language is changing, so the generally accepted meaning of the word can differ from what I had learnt in my childhood.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Koshkin 5y ago
    > FSB is an intelligence agency It is a security agency, a.k.a. the “secret police.” (It does, of course, spy on the populace.)
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      Basically the Stasi of Russia, no?
      - outside1234 5y ago
        They are, in fact, what the Stasi were modeled after.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - andy-x 5y ago
        FSB is former KGB, so indeed it is Stasi, but KGB may be even more familiar name from those times.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    > FSB is an intelligence agency, They are also a military branch and have military ranks, although they don't wear uniforms. The FSB acts like a combination of FBI, a border patrol and secret police. They are also the group allowed to carry out an assassination on foreign soil (according to Russian law), although they are not allowed to authorize such a mission on their own.
- qiskit 5y ago
  We get what you are trying to say, but people carry guns, they don't wear guns.
  - SkinTaco 5y ago
    What were you hoping the readers of your comment would gain from your comment? Apologies if this comes off abrasively. This is a genuine question that thought to myself when I read your comment. I can't think of a better way to phrase it.
    - qiskit 5y ago
      Edification. Nobody says "wear a gun". It doesn't sound right. Was assuming the commenter was a non-native english speaker and was helping him out.
      - js2 5y ago
        I’m a native U.S. English speaker and I didn’t think twice about “wear a gun”. People absolutely say that. It’s not even pedantically incorrect: 2 (b) to carry on the person; wear a sword https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wear https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wear https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Wearing+a+gun%22&tbm=bks https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Wearing+a+gun%22&tbm=bks
        qiskit 5y ago
        > I’m a native U.S. English speaker and I didn’t think twice about “wear a gun”. Maybe it's regional. I've never heard it said that way before. "Are you wearing a gun"? "Concealed wearing laws"? Doesn't sound right, but I guess people do use it. Don't cops ask "Do you have a gun on you" or "Are you carrying?". I think most of us would find it weird if a cop asked us "Are you wearing a gun?".
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        ”Wearing” a gun pretty specifically is used for having it in, or at least with, a holster (I’ve seen it used a lot, and always with that meaning; it is pretty much the combination of wearing the holster and carrying the gun that goes in it; I’ve mostly seen it used of people who do that regularly as part of a job or lifestyle, either speaking about them in general or discussing whether they were or were not doing so at a particular time.) “Carrying” is more general and more often of interest. > Don't cops ask "Do you have a gun on you" or "Are you carrying?" In person, I’be most frequently observed the former (fortunately, not much experience), but on TV both cops and crooks tend to use “carrying” with an implied direct object a lot. > I think most of us would find it weird if a cop asked us "Are you wearing a gun?". Sure, because that's not what a cop is likely concerned about.
throwawaymanbot 5y ago
The Irish term “hard man” is more of a meaning about a persons spirit/ attitude to certain things. It does mean someone you don’t want to mess with or in fact have any sort of dealings with. (unless you can equivalently “nullify” their attitude and there’s only one thing usually that can nullify a “hard man”… and this the cycle begins.
lordnacho 5y ago
> other organization with a dress code that requires a gun Sounds a lot like organized crime, is it supposed to have that undertone?
- skrtskrt 5y ago
  or mercenaries/"private security"
- xxs 5y ago
  >is it supposed to have that undertone? nope. the 2nd word means "structures" and it implies part of the state.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  > other organization with a dress code that requires a gun No, that sounds like any armed forces, police force, the secret service, etc.
- ordu 5y ago
  Policemen wear guns, and it doesn't sound like an organized crime. The root of the word "siloviki" is "sila", which means "force". And it is about using force in order to perform their job. Like policemen do. Or security guards. Or soldiers. And it is not used to refer to crime activities. They also use force, but they are not "siloviki".
  - sgt101 5y ago
    In some places, in theory, the police use consent of the overwhelming majority to do their job.
    - tenuousemphasis 5y ago
      That is merely a pleasant sounding fiction perpetuated by those with wealth and power.
  - cjmcqueen 5y ago
    Force or power was how I see the translation. These are people using their force or power to their own agenda. It's a useful name IMHO
thanatos519 5y ago
"other organization with a dress code that requires a gun" ⇒ mafia.
- watwut 5y ago
  Not all mafia have dress code. Some do, but it is not norm or anything.
  - benatkin 5y ago
    A dress code could require wearing a gun (i. e. wearing both a gun and a holster - when someone puts a vest on you say they're wearing a vest even if the vest only touches the shirt - ditto shoes and long socks) and nothing else and it would still be a dress code. I would even say that a policy that you can wear anything is a dress code in the same way the unlicense is a license. I think that undercover or plainclothes in most cases has enough rules that it constitutes a dress code, even if you think a dress code needs to have rules about more than one article of clothing to be considered a dress code.
    - watwut 5y ago
      Afaik, mafia does not require gun and holster on you typically. Plus, in situation where you have to have one, it is closer to requirement to have a tool with you then dress code. I don't understand why the need to twist mafia into dress code group. Russian mafia is know entity, so is albanian one. Ukraine mafia exists too. It is just that, dress code is not what would be associated with them.
      - benatkin 5y ago
        Point taken. I retract my statements. I think it is possible to have a dress code for under cover policing. I guess the only thing left is that I think that a dress code is not the same as a uniform, and that an undercover operation could have a dress code similar to a nightclub, where there are rules but no specific products that have to be worn.
huhtenberg 5y ago
"siloviki" is literally a "men of power" ("sila" in Russian is "power" in English) => these include the FSB (an FBI equivalent, or the ex-KGB in practice) and MVD (the police). That's it.
- trhway 5y ago
  Good news - as result of Ukraine war failure these lowlifes are starting to eat each other - the director of foreign intelligence of FSB has just got arrested for "embezzling money intended for sabotage and gathering of intelligence in Ukraine and for providing false information about political situation in Ukraine" :) From https://www.thedailybeast.com/now-russia-is-bombing-western-ukraine-right-by-the-nato-border https://www.thedailybeast.com/now-russia-is-bombing-western-... : "Meanwhile, panic appears to be setting in within Putin’s inner circle, with the Russian leader allegedly firing eight generals and putting the head of his FSB spy arm Sergei Beseda and his deputy under house arrest" Russian: https://meduza.io/news/2022/03/11/zhurnalist-andrey-soldatov-rukovoditelya-vneshney-razvedki-fsb-otpravili-pod-domashniy-arest-ofitsialno-eto-ne-podtverzhdeno https://meduza.io/news/2022/03/11/zhurnalist-andrey-soldatov... All that while 3 generals have already been killed in Ukraine in addition to uncounted number of officers with no major military success. That is bound to cause "friction" between various arms of the "siloviki". There is also a large fight brewing between FSB and Chechens (they have been in "cold war" state) as large convoy of Chechen forces in Ukraine was completely destroyed by Ukrainians based on information that seems to had been leaked by FSB.
  - tartoran 5y ago
    Putin surrounded himself with yes men. These people are afraid to displease Putin and end up taking shortcuts left and right to give him what he wants. Only fear is keeping this system from crumbling, they’re all afraid of eachother. “ Soldierov told the British Times that it could well be that the FSB had realistic knowledge of the situation in Ukraine - the only question was what was passed on to Putin. "The problem lies in the fact that it is often risky for those responsible to tell Putin things that he doesn't want to hear," Soldierov said.” [0] https://newsrnd.com/news/2022-03-11-putin-is-said-to-have-put-secret-service-chiefs-under-house-arrest-out-of-anger.H1g4iyyK-q.html https://newsrnd.com/news/2022-03-11-putin-is-said-to-have-pu...
zoomablemind 5y ago
> ...The word "siloviki" made from "силовые структуры", which may be translated literally as "structures of force"... "siloviki" => members/heads of the law enforcement and security agencies, read "enforcers". But "hard men" passes the forceful connotation well enough.

by ordu 5y ago

twelve40 5y ago

yes, definitely not "hard men", more like what you described, except various intelligence agencies who don't always wear a gun, are also included.

ordu 5y ago
Well, FSB is an intelligence agency, and they wear guns or at least have a license to wear gun. Though I cannot argue. I rely on my intuitive knowledge of Russian which is hard to use as a rational argument. This knowledge tells me that "силовые структуры"/"structures of force" are organizations that use force to solve problems. And I think that all of them wear guns. But I may be wrong with that last statement, and moreover language is changing, so the generally accepted meaning of the word can differ from what I had learnt in my childhood.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Koshkin 5y ago
  > FSB is an intelligence agency It is a security agency, a.k.a. the “secret police.” (It does, of course, spy on the populace.)
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Basically the Stasi of Russia, no?
    - outside1234 5y ago
      They are, in fact, what the Stasi were modeled after.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - andy-x 5y ago
      FSB is former KGB, so indeed it is Stasi, but KGB may be even more familiar name from those times.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > FSB is an intelligence agency, They are also a military branch and have military ranks, although they don't wear uniforms. The FSB acts like a combination of FBI, a border patrol and secret police. They are also the group allowed to carry out an assassination on foreign soil (according to Russian law), although they are not allowed to authorize such a mission on their own.
qiskit 5y ago
We get what you are trying to say, but people carry guns, they don't wear guns.
- SkinTaco 5y ago
  What were you hoping the readers of your comment would gain from your comment? Apologies if this comes off abrasively. This is a genuine question that thought to myself when I read your comment. I can't think of a better way to phrase it.
  - qiskit 5y ago
    Edification. Nobody says "wear a gun". It doesn't sound right. Was assuming the commenter was a non-native english speaker and was helping him out.
    - js2 5y ago
      I’m a native U.S. English speaker and I didn’t think twice about “wear a gun”. People absolutely say that. It’s not even pedantically incorrect: 2 (b) to carry on the person; wear a sword https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wear https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wear https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Wearing+a+gun%22&tbm=bks https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Wearing+a+gun%22&tbm=bks
      - qiskit 5y ago
        > I’m a native U.S. English speaker and I didn’t think twice about “wear a gun”. Maybe it's regional. I've never heard it said that way before. "Are you wearing a gun"? "Concealed wearing laws"? Doesn't sound right, but I guess people do use it. Don't cops ask "Do you have a gun on you" or "Are you carrying?". I think most of us would find it weird if a cop asked us "Are you wearing a gun?".
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        ”Wearing” a gun pretty specifically is used for having it in, or at least with, a holster (I’ve seen it used a lot, and always with that meaning; it is pretty much the combination of wearing the holster and carrying the gun that goes in it; I’ve mostly seen it used of people who do that regularly as part of a job or lifestyle, either speaking about them in general or discussing whether they were or were not doing so at a particular time.) “Carrying” is more general and more often of interest. > Don't cops ask "Do you have a gun on you" or "Are you carrying?" In person, I’be most frequently observed the former (fortunately, not much experience), but on TV both cops and crooks tend to use “carrying” with an implied direct object a lot. > I think most of us would find it weird if a cop asked us "Are you wearing a gun?". Sure, because that's not what a cop is likely concerned about.

throwawaymanbot 5y ago

The Irish term “hard man” is more of a meaning about a persons spirit/ attitude to certain things. It does mean someone you don’t want to mess with or in fact have any sort of dealings with. (unless you can equivalently “nullify” their attitude and there’s only one thing usually that can nullify a “hard man”… and this the cycle begins.

lordnacho 5y ago

> other organization with a dress code that requires a gun Sounds a lot like organized crime, is it supposed to have that undertone?

skrtskrt 5y ago
or mercenaries/"private security"
xxs 5y ago
>is it supposed to have that undertone? nope. the 2nd word means "structures" and it implies part of the state.
hunterb123 5y ago
> other organization with a dress code that requires a gun No, that sounds like any armed forces, police force, the secret service, etc.
ordu 5y ago
Policemen wear guns, and it doesn't sound like an organized crime. The root of the word "siloviki" is "sila", which means "force". And it is about using force in order to perform their job. Like policemen do. Or security guards. Or soldiers. And it is not used to refer to crime activities. They also use force, but they are not "siloviki".
- sgt101 5y ago
  In some places, in theory, the police use consent of the overwhelming majority to do their job.
  - tenuousemphasis 5y ago
    That is merely a pleasant sounding fiction perpetuated by those with wealth and power.
- cjmcqueen 5y ago
  Force or power was how I see the translation. These are people using their force or power to their own agenda. It's a useful name IMHO

thanatos519 5y ago

"other organization with a dress code that requires a gun" ⇒ mafia.

watwut 5y ago
Not all mafia have dress code. Some do, but it is not norm or anything.
- benatkin 5y ago
  A dress code could require wearing a gun (i. e. wearing both a gun and a holster - when someone puts a vest on you say they're wearing a vest even if the vest only touches the shirt - ditto shoes and long socks) and nothing else and it would still be a dress code. I would even say that a policy that you can wear anything is a dress code in the same way the unlicense is a license. I think that undercover or plainclothes in most cases has enough rules that it constitutes a dress code, even if you think a dress code needs to have rules about more than one article of clothing to be considered a dress code.
  - watwut 5y ago
    Afaik, mafia does not require gun and holster on you typically. Plus, in situation where you have to have one, it is closer to requirement to have a tool with you then dress code. I don't understand why the need to twist mafia into dress code group. Russian mafia is know entity, so is albanian one. Ukraine mafia exists too. It is just that, dress code is not what would be associated with them.
    - benatkin 5y ago
      Point taken. I retract my statements. I think it is possible to have a dress code for under cover policing. I guess the only thing left is that I think that a dress code is not the same as a uniform, and that an undercover operation could have a dress code similar to a nightclub, where there are rules but no specific products that have to be worn.

huhtenberg 5y ago

"siloviki" is literally a "men of power" ("sila" in Russian is "power" in English) => these include the FSB (an FBI equivalent, or the ex-KGB in practice) and MVD (the police). That's it.

trhway 5y ago
Good news - as result of Ukraine war failure these lowlifes are starting to eat each other - the director of foreign intelligence of FSB has just got arrested for "embezzling money intended for sabotage and gathering of intelligence in Ukraine and for providing false information about political situation in Ukraine" :) From https://www.thedailybeast.com/now-russia-is-bombing-western-ukraine-right-by-the-nato-border https://www.thedailybeast.com/now-russia-is-bombing-western-... : "Meanwhile, panic appears to be setting in within Putin’s inner circle, with the Russian leader allegedly firing eight generals and putting the head of his FSB spy arm Sergei Beseda and his deputy under house arrest" Russian: https://meduza.io/news/2022/03/11/zhurnalist-andrey-soldatov-rukovoditelya-vneshney-razvedki-fsb-otpravili-pod-domashniy-arest-ofitsialno-eto-ne-podtverzhdeno https://meduza.io/news/2022/03/11/zhurnalist-andrey-soldatov... All that while 3 generals have already been killed in Ukraine in addition to uncounted number of officers with no major military success. That is bound to cause "friction" between various arms of the "siloviki". There is also a large fight brewing between FSB and Chechens (they have been in "cold war" state) as large convoy of Chechen forces in Ukraine was completely destroyed by Ukrainians based on information that seems to had been leaked by FSB.
- tartoran 5y ago
  Putin surrounded himself with yes men. These people are afraid to displease Putin and end up taking shortcuts left and right to give him what he wants. Only fear is keeping this system from crumbling, they’re all afraid of eachother. “ Soldierov told the British Times that it could well be that the FSB had realistic knowledge of the situation in Ukraine - the only question was what was passed on to Putin. "The problem lies in the fact that it is often risky for those responsible to tell Putin things that he doesn't want to hear," Soldierov said.” [0] https://newsrnd.com/news/2022-03-11-putin-is-said-to-have-put-secret-service-chiefs-under-house-arrest-out-of-anger.H1g4iyyK-q.html https://newsrnd.com/news/2022-03-11-putin-is-said-to-have-pu...

zoomablemind 5y ago

> ...The word "siloviki" made from "силовые структуры", which may be translated literally as "structures of force"... "siloviki" => members/heads of the law enforcement and security agencies, read "enforcers". But "hard men" passes the forceful connotation well enough.