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None of those dead geniuses have the sway to reject the current Russian government and demand changes. If enough Russians are impacted, maybe they will find the

None of those dead geniuses have the sway to reject the current Russian government and demand changes. If enough Russians are impacted, maybe they will find the will to do so. > regardless of the ship having no ties to Russia's government Flying under a Russian flag, registering itself with the Russian government, and agreeing to operate under Russian jurisdiction sure sound like ties to the Russian government to me. Presumably if the ship decided to stop operating under those circumstances, there are other countries who would be willing to accept the ship to their jurisdiction.

unmole 5y ago
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  > What deranged nonsense is this? Your parent poster presented a reasonable argument for their position. You responded by calling it "deranged nonsense", without specifying what you found problematic in the parent's post.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    The GP quoted what they believe to be deranged nonsense, which is a reasonable position to have. The coffee shop down your street is not a Government Agency. Get real.
    - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
      > The GP quoted what they believe to be deranged nonsense, which is a reasonable position to have. The coffee shop down your street is not a Government Agency. Get real. I never said that GP is wrong about it being deranged nonsense, I merely pointed out that they didn't make any attempt to explain their position or convince anybody else. They made a low-quality knee-jerk shitpost that added no value to anyone reading it. If they want to convince other people, they should use at least a few words to explain what they thought was wrong.
      - pphysch 5y ago
        Not everything requires pedantic justification, especially deranged calls for dehumanization and ethnic prejudice. It is Common Sense (and legally correct) that coffee shops are not government agents just because they are registered in a particular place.
        baobabKoodaa 5y ago
        > Not everything requires pedantic justification, especially deranged calls for dehumanization and ethnic prejudice. It is Common Sense (and legally correct) that coffee shops are not government agents just because they are registered in a particular place. Nobody claimed that coffee shops (or fishing vessels) are "government agents". The claim was that a fishing vessel registered to Russia has "ties" to Russian government. This claim is factually true. For instance, they pay some amount of taxes to the Russian government. This also holds true for a coffee shop: a coffee shop registered to Finland pays some amount of taxes to Finnish government.
        unmole 5y ago
        So, Osama bin Laden had a valid justification after all. /s > You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake: This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
        baobabKoodaa 5y ago
AdamN 5y ago
+1 Change their flag to the Ukrainian one (or the UN or whatever else) if they want to show they're on the side of humanity.
- unmole 5y ago
  > Change their flag to the Ukrainian one (or the UN or whatever else) Ships don't fly flags to signal patriotism or some other virtue. They fly the civil ensigns of the country where they are registered as a matter of international law. Good luck trying to register a Russian owned ship in Ukraine in the present circumstances.
- rixed 5y ago
  There is no side in any conflict that is not human. If you truly believe otherwise please document yourself further, I can assure you you will discover that, once again, all was not black and white (I recommend any book or video from few years ago about the situation in Ukraine). To get back to the ship, I hope we will manage the situation through dialog, first with harbors, then with people who may be shocked to see this or that flag, patiently defusing locally small bits of the hatred that's been manufactured at such a large scale.
rixed 5y ago
First, it is easy to say Russians lack the will to oppose their government. Had you the will to oppose the American government when it invaded Irak, despite you could do so without facing jail, unlike Russians? Secondly, a flag means many different things for different people. I do not want to discuss this, I think this is too subtle and sensible a topic to be discussed here and now. Suffice to say it had been considered to change the flag. Meanwhile, they have been flying the Ukrainian flag alongside the Russian flag (you can imagine the risks involved. Now the ship has to be guarded from stupid nationalists from all sides).
pandaman 5y ago
Just imagine this had been done to any other nation: Americans, French, Germans, Japanese, Chinese etc. Do you think any of these would just say "Wtf, let's overthrow the government to make the foreigners happy!"? If you think so, there are some examples to the contrary in not so distant history e.g. with Germany after WW1.

unmole 5y ago

baobabKoodaa 5y ago
> What deranged nonsense is this? Your parent poster presented a reasonable argument for their position. You responded by calling it "deranged nonsense", without specifying what you found problematic in the parent's post.
- pphysch 5y ago
  The GP quoted what they believe to be deranged nonsense, which is a reasonable position to have. The coffee shop down your street is not a Government Agency. Get real.
  - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
    > The GP quoted what they believe to be deranged nonsense, which is a reasonable position to have. The coffee shop down your street is not a Government Agency. Get real. I never said that GP is wrong about it being deranged nonsense, I merely pointed out that they didn't make any attempt to explain their position or convince anybody else. They made a low-quality knee-jerk shitpost that added no value to anyone reading it. If they want to convince other people, they should use at least a few words to explain what they thought was wrong.
    - pphysch 5y ago
      Not everything requires pedantic justification, especially deranged calls for dehumanization and ethnic prejudice. It is Common Sense (and legally correct) that coffee shops are not government agents just because they are registered in a particular place.
      - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
        > Not everything requires pedantic justification, especially deranged calls for dehumanization and ethnic prejudice. It is Common Sense (and legally correct) that coffee shops are not government agents just because they are registered in a particular place. Nobody claimed that coffee shops (or fishing vessels) are "government agents". The claim was that a fishing vessel registered to Russia has "ties" to Russian government. This claim is factually true. For instance, they pay some amount of taxes to the Russian government. This also holds true for a coffee shop: a coffee shop registered to Finland pays some amount of taxes to Finnish government.
        unmole 5y ago
        So, Osama bin Laden had a valid justification after all. /s > You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake: This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
        baobabKoodaa 5y ago

AdamN 5y ago

+1 Change their flag to the Ukrainian one (or the UN or whatever else) if they want to show they're on the side of humanity.

unmole 5y ago
> Change their flag to the Ukrainian one (or the UN or whatever else) Ships don't fly flags to signal patriotism or some other virtue. They fly the civil ensigns of the country where they are registered as a matter of international law. Good luck trying to register a Russian owned ship in Ukraine in the present circumstances.
rixed 5y ago
There is no side in any conflict that is not human. If you truly believe otherwise please document yourself further, I can assure you you will discover that, once again, all was not black and white (I recommend any book or video from few years ago about the situation in Ukraine). To get back to the ship, I hope we will manage the situation through dialog, first with harbors, then with people who may be shocked to see this or that flag, patiently defusing locally small bits of the hatred that's been manufactured at such a large scale.

rixed 5y ago

First, it is easy to say Russians lack the will to oppose their government. Had you the will to oppose the American government when it invaded Irak, despite you could do so without facing jail, unlike Russians? Secondly, a flag means many different things for different people. I do not want to discuss this, I think this is too subtle and sensible a topic to be discussed here and now. Suffice to say it had been considered to change the flag. Meanwhile, they have been flying the Ukrainian flag alongside the Russian flag (you can imagine the risks involved. Now the ship has to be guarded from stupid nationalists from all sides).

pandaman 5y ago

Just imagine this had been done to any other nation: Americans, French, Germans, Japanese, Chinese etc. Do you think any of these would just say "Wtf, let's overthrow the government to make the foreigners happy!"? If you think so, there are some examples to the contrary in not so distant history e.g. with Germany after WW1.