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I can add a similar story: from time to time I'm volunteering on a russian school sail ship, that's been sailing around Europe for the last 20 years, from festi

by rixed 5y ago

I can add a similar story: from time to time I'm volunteering on a russian school sail ship, that's been sailing around Europe for the last 20 years, from festival to festival, teaching people from every origins to sail and live together in a 3-mast replica. Many harbour-cities in Europe have send messages to that ship that it was no longer welcome, because of its flag, regardless of the ship having no ties to Russia's government, not having been to Russia for the last 10 years, having Ukrainian crewmembers, etc. Funny enough, this very morning a former sailor on that ship wrote a letter, which ended with these words: > It is with a heavy heart that I learnt today that Russian ships are not welcomed anymore to the Tall Ships Races and maritime festivals because of the war in Ukraine. Shtandart is a private ship, built and operated privately by sailing enthusiasts, with no connection whatsoever with the Russian government. I cannot imagine how that exclusion can have any impact on the Russian government decisions. I can see though very clearly how that exclusion can cripple the Shtandart project financially, making its life changing mission impossible. > I see banning the Shtandart from our maritime festivals and the Tall Ships Races like banning Tarkovsky from our cinemas, Tchaikovsky from our music halls, Kandinsky from our art museums or Dostoevsky from our libraries. Premonitions...

mupuff1234 5y ago
Might be a silly question, but can't they sail under a different flag or no flag at all?
- ghusto 5y ago
  I don't think it's silly. I looked into this kind of thing once, and as I recall, it's super illegal.
  - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
    Surely a ship can change which country it is registered to.
- rixed 5y ago
  No flag is illegal. You can indeed switch flag, but it's not easy, and they do not like that solution for several reasons: - for them the flag means "Russia" not "Putin" (they added the Ukrainian flag by the way, which might also be borderline illegal) - I suspect they do not want to give way to what they perceive as a temporary hysteria - the ship is a replica of the first ship of the Baltic sea, it carries various flags of historical importance. You can't just relabel it as a panamean ship and call it a day (although maybe that's what will be done eventually, if only temporarily). I personally believe that they are right to stand against russophobia, as long as possible. Please don't misinterpret this as suport for the current war, or support for some russian imperialism. Come to visit the ship one day if you have the chance, and see for yourself.
cakeface 5y ago
I think holding the citizens of a country responsible for the actions of the government of their country is not completely unreasonable.
- ouid 5y ago
  Dostoevsky is not a citizen of Russia. Dostoevsky is dead.
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    While I get what you're saying in regards to the fact that no Russian citizen is being punished in this specific event, I can't help but feel like banning the works of someone who is around 140 years removed from what is Russia today is nothing more than a blatant attack on "Russian-ness", so to speak.
    - ouid 5y ago
      You absolutely do not get what I'm saying. The action of bannig dostoevsky is absurd because there is not even a tenuous thread of accoutability there. Russia was ruled by the Romanovs when he died.
      - BitwiseFool 5y ago
        I'm actually in full agreement with you. I must have read your comment "Dostoevsky is not a citizen of Russia" with a different connotation than you intended. Going back and reading it, and the parent comment, makes me realize you were getting at something else. In any event, I also believe is this fervent foolishness.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  Even when the government throws the opposition in jail? When foreign media is banned, so most citizens don’t even know that there is something to protest? Tough break to be from that country: your government oppresses you and the rest of the world does too.
InitialLastName 5y ago
None of those dead geniuses have the sway to reject the current Russian government and demand changes. If enough Russians are impacted, maybe they will find the will to do so. > regardless of the ship having no ties to Russia's government Flying under a Russian flag, registering itself with the Russian government, and agreeing to operate under Russian jurisdiction sure sound like ties to the Russian government to me. Presumably if the ship decided to stop operating under those circumstances, there are other countries who would be willing to accept the ship to their jurisdiction.
- unmole 5y ago
  - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
    > What deranged nonsense is this? Your parent poster presented a reasonable argument for their position. You responded by calling it "deranged nonsense", without specifying what you found problematic in the parent's post.
    - pphysch 5y ago
      The GP quoted what they believe to be deranged nonsense, which is a reasonable position to have. The coffee shop down your street is not a Government Agency. Get real.
      - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
        > The GP quoted what they believe to be deranged nonsense, which is a reasonable position to have. The coffee shop down your street is not a Government Agency. Get real. I never said that GP is wrong about it being deranged nonsense, I merely pointed out that they didn't make any attempt to explain their position or convince anybody else. They made a low-quality knee-jerk shitpost that added no value to anyone reading it. If they want to convince other people, they should use at least a few words to explain what they thought was wrong.
throwaway6734 5y ago
I see nothing wrong with restricting the rights of Russian citizens in foreign countries. Their government is invading a neighbor and causing the death of thousands of people. Due to the presence of nuclear weapons, NATO forces can not directly engage with Russia militarily so the only solution is for Russians to deal with the problem themselves
- ianleeclark 5y ago
  Theres something deeply funny about hiding behind a throwaway account while saying that anyone Russian by means of passport ought to be repressed. Cowardly display
  - throwaway6734 5y ago
    How so? Do you think anonymity shouldn't be allowed online? Can you link to your LinkedIn or other personally identifiable information? What's your solution to what's going on in Ukraine? Why should Ukrainians suffer and die while Russian citizens are free to live a life of peace?
    - ianleeclark 5y ago
      > How so? You're calling for repression while avoiding responsibility for what you post. Specifically you're calling for nationality-based repression which would affect people who haven't lived in the country for decades or had no meaningful input. You're just feigning a petty tyrant. > Can you link to your LinkedIn or other personally identifiable information? My handle isn't some random assortment of characters and if you Google my name, you will find it all. > What's your solution to what's going on in Ukraine? I'm just some idiot with a keyboard, who cares what my opinion is?
      - throwaway6734 5y ago
        >You're calling for repression while avoiding responsibility for what you post It sounds like you're opposed to the idea of interacting on the internet without some kind of verified identification. Discussions have different levels of "safe" viewpoints. Instead of having a different account for each tier of discussion, I use a singular account for all of them. That being said, I don't think this is an extreme point of view as the west is already sanctioning wide swaths of the Russian economy. >Specifically you're calling for nationality-based repression which would affect people who haven't lived in the country for decades or had no meaningful input. Yes. Citizens from enemy countries should not be treated the same as those from friendly or neutral countries. For Russians, it's their country and their people that are invading a neighbor and killing others. It's their president that is threatening to start a nuclear war. Russian citizens in foreign countries are free to claim asylum in those countries and work towards a different citizenship
chadash 5y ago
No one thinks that the Russian people are collectively responsible for what's happening in Ukraine. If there were a way to target Putin, and Putin alone, then we'd do that. But it's impossible. So we use the blunt (and unfair) instrument of sanctions to try to make this painful for all Russians, in the hopes that doing so puts pressure on Putin to stop his invasion. It's not at all fair to ordinary Russians, but perhaps it's justified given the gravity of what's happening in Ukraine.
- rixed 5y ago
  I would agree with you, if I had any faith left that the west actually cared about the fate of Ukrainian people.

by rixed 5y ago

mupuff1234 5y ago

Might be a silly question, but can't they sail under a different flag or no flag at all?

ghusto 5y ago
I don't think it's silly. I looked into this kind of thing once, and as I recall, it's super illegal.
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  Surely a ship can change which country it is registered to.
rixed 5y ago
No flag is illegal. You can indeed switch flag, but it's not easy, and they do not like that solution for several reasons: - for them the flag means "Russia" not "Putin" (they added the Ukrainian flag by the way, which might also be borderline illegal) - I suspect they do not want to give way to what they perceive as a temporary hysteria - the ship is a replica of the first ship of the Baltic sea, it carries various flags of historical importance. You can't just relabel it as a panamean ship and call it a day (although maybe that's what will be done eventually, if only temporarily). I personally believe that they are right to stand against russophobia, as long as possible. Please don't misinterpret this as suport for the current war, or support for some russian imperialism. Come to visit the ship one day if you have the chance, and see for yourself.

cakeface 5y ago

I think holding the citizens of a country responsible for the actions of the government of their country is not completely unreasonable.

ouid 5y ago
Dostoevsky is not a citizen of Russia. Dostoevsky is dead.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  While I get what you're saying in regards to the fact that no Russian citizen is being punished in this specific event, I can't help but feel like banning the works of someone who is around 140 years removed from what is Russia today is nothing more than a blatant attack on "Russian-ness", so to speak.
  - ouid 5y ago
    You absolutely do not get what I'm saying. The action of bannig dostoevsky is absurd because there is not even a tenuous thread of accoutability there. Russia was ruled by the Romanovs when he died.
    - BitwiseFool 5y ago
      I'm actually in full agreement with you. I must have read your comment "Dostoevsky is not a citizen of Russia" with a different connotation than you intended. Going back and reading it, and the parent comment, makes me realize you were getting at something else. In any event, I also believe is this fervent foolishness.
fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
Even when the government throws the opposition in jail? When foreign media is banned, so most citizens don’t even know that there is something to protest? Tough break to be from that country: your government oppresses you and the rest of the world does too.

InitialLastName 5y ago

None of those dead geniuses have the sway to reject the current Russian government and demand changes. If enough Russians are impacted, maybe they will find the will to do so. > regardless of the ship having no ties to Russia's government Flying under a Russian flag, registering itself with the Russian government, and agreeing to operate under Russian jurisdiction sure sound like ties to the Russian government to me. Presumably if the ship decided to stop operating under those circumstances, there are other countries who would be willing to accept the ship to their jurisdiction.

unmole 5y ago
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  > What deranged nonsense is this? Your parent poster presented a reasonable argument for their position. You responded by calling it "deranged nonsense", without specifying what you found problematic in the parent's post.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    The GP quoted what they believe to be deranged nonsense, which is a reasonable position to have. The coffee shop down your street is not a Government Agency. Get real.
    - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
      > The GP quoted what they believe to be deranged nonsense, which is a reasonable position to have. The coffee shop down your street is not a Government Agency. Get real. I never said that GP is wrong about it being deranged nonsense, I merely pointed out that they didn't make any attempt to explain their position or convince anybody else. They made a low-quality knee-jerk shitpost that added no value to anyone reading it. If they want to convince other people, they should use at least a few words to explain what they thought was wrong.

throwaway6734 5y ago

I see nothing wrong with restricting the rights of Russian citizens in foreign countries. Their government is invading a neighbor and causing the death of thousands of people. Due to the presence of nuclear weapons, NATO forces can not directly engage with Russia militarily so the only solution is for Russians to deal with the problem themselves

ianleeclark 5y ago
Theres something deeply funny about hiding behind a throwaway account while saying that anyone Russian by means of passport ought to be repressed. Cowardly display
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  How so? Do you think anonymity shouldn't be allowed online? Can you link to your LinkedIn or other personally identifiable information? What's your solution to what's going on in Ukraine? Why should Ukrainians suffer and die while Russian citizens are free to live a life of peace?
  - ianleeclark 5y ago
    > How so? You're calling for repression while avoiding responsibility for what you post. Specifically you're calling for nationality-based repression which would affect people who haven't lived in the country for decades or had no meaningful input. You're just feigning a petty tyrant. > Can you link to your LinkedIn or other personally identifiable information? My handle isn't some random assortment of characters and if you Google my name, you will find it all. > What's your solution to what's going on in Ukraine? I'm just some idiot with a keyboard, who cares what my opinion is?
    - throwaway6734 5y ago
      >You're calling for repression while avoiding responsibility for what you post It sounds like you're opposed to the idea of interacting on the internet without some kind of verified identification. Discussions have different levels of "safe" viewpoints. Instead of having a different account for each tier of discussion, I use a singular account for all of them. That being said, I don't think this is an extreme point of view as the west is already sanctioning wide swaths of the Russian economy. >Specifically you're calling for nationality-based repression which would affect people who haven't lived in the country for decades or had no meaningful input. Yes. Citizens from enemy countries should not be treated the same as those from friendly or neutral countries. For Russians, it's their country and their people that are invading a neighbor and killing others. It's their president that is threatening to start a nuclear war. Russian citizens in foreign countries are free to claim asylum in those countries and work towards a different citizenship

chadash 5y ago

No one thinks that the Russian people are collectively responsible for what's happening in Ukraine. If there were a way to target Putin, and Putin alone, then we'd do that. But it's impossible. So we use the blunt (and unfair) instrument of sanctions to try to make this painful for all Russians, in the hopes that doing so puts pressure on Putin to stop his invasion. It's not at all fair to ordinary Russians, but perhaps it's justified given the gravity of what's happening in Ukraine.

rixed 5y ago
I would agree with you, if I had any faith left that the west actually cared about the fate of Ukrainian people.