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A new major refinery? Give or take, a decade. From planning, basic engineering, to permitting, detailed engineering and construction. The fastest, easiest way

A new major refinery? Give or take, a decade. From planning, basic engineering, to permitting, detailed engineering and construction. The fastest, easiest way to solve the issue is to blend our light crude with heavy crude to have something usable in our refineries. The cheapest, fastest and safest way to move oil is through a pipeline. The most geopolitically stable supplier of heavy and super heavy crude oil is just north of our border. Canada. The pipeline that was meant to bring their crude, the keystone pipeline was cancelled after its permits were revoked. The con of Canadian oil is that some of it is produced by Steam Assisted Gravity Drain, a process were steam has to be injected into the reservoir to heat up and reduce the heavy oil’s viscosity, allowing it to drain into a horizontal well, drilled closely below the steam injecting well. This is an energy intensive process, and if the energy to produce the steam is derived from fossil fuels, it’s carbon footprint is large. Another potential suppliers of heavy crude is Venezuela, but it’s dictatorship has mismanaged the industry to the point that they are importing crude and distillates. There are no solutions, only trade offs.

nradov 5y ago
If we get really desperate, expanded drilling off the coast of California along with building another refinery near Santa Barbara could also be part of the solution. Of course many of us in California would oppose this, for understandable reasons.
giantrobot 5y ago
> The pipeline that was meant to bring their crude, the keystone pipeline was cancelled after its permits were revoked. The Keystone XL pipeline was meant to take Canadian oil to the Gulf of Mexico to refineries intending to export it. Very little of the refinery infrastructure at the terminal end of the pipeline was equipped to redistribute it domestically. Something like 70% of the oil transported by Keystone XL would have been for export.
- Teever 5y ago
  Also as a Canadian I'm a little baffled why we should be prioritizing building pipelines that run north to south to export our oil when we can run pipelines east to west to supply our own people and export on our own shores.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Many reasons: Because the market is bigger and demand is greater Because Quebec is powered by hydro and doesn't need oil and doesn't want the pipeline going east because they sell power. The eastern provinces get oil from offshore locally or from Saudi/middle east so the cost doesn't make sense. The oil is going south anyways on trucks. The pipeline took so many trucks off the road.
    - soperj 5y ago
      >Because Quebec is powered by hydro and doesn't need oil and doesn't want the pipeline going east because they sell power. Quebec uses tons of oil every day, whenever they fill up their cars. Most of it comes from Saudi Arabia, brought into the Irving Refinery in New Brunswick. Irving would use Canadian oil if they could get it.
      - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
        Sorry but this is factually incorrect. The majority of Quebec's oil is from Alberta, with some small amount being from the US and only a tiny portion coming from the Irving refinery. https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles-quebec.html https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/pr... "Line 9 has been delivering crude oil from Sarnia, Ontario to Montreal since its reversal became operational in December 2015. The line has a capacity of 300 Mb/d and transports a combination of oil from western Canada and the U.S. Midwest. In 2018, deliveries of imported and eastern Canadian crude oil on the Portland-Montreal Pipeline fell to an average 2.5 Mb/d, less than 1% of its capacity." (italics mine) That being said, GPP is partially correct: Quebec is the highest electricity producer and consumer in Canada, but it's almost entirely hydroelectric and their electricity is cheap. "Quebec’s emissions per capita are the lowest in Canada at 9.4 tonnes CO2e – 52% below the Canadian average of 19.6 tonnes per capita." With the highest electric vehicle uptake in the country, and the lowest greenhouse gas emissions, seems Quebec has the right to be smug (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFAAdOBB1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFAAdOBB1c) Anyways, please don't spread political disinformation. Quebec is not a significant consumer of Saudi oil, despite what Jason Kenney has to say about it.
- kodah 5y ago
  I was curious about this so I looked around. From what I can tell it looks like what you're saying is part of a political disinformation campaign started by Kirsten Gillibrand. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/apr/16/kirsten-gillibrand/will-oil-keystone-xl-pipeline-stay-us/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/apr/16/kirsten-gi... https://www.lsu.edu/hss/english/files/university_writing_files/item53134.pdf https://www.lsu.edu/hss/english/files/university_writing_fil... (Page 5) If I understand these summaries correctly: 1. Countries in Latin America are developing and therefore using more oil so they have less to share with us. 2. We are consuming slightly more oil. 3. Oil obtained from hostile and unreliable regions should be replaced. The effects would be that oil consumed from the pipeline would be cheaper, it would be more reliable, and while not being totally for domestic use would make a significant dent in our oil consumption in the right categories. Edit: Opposition to the Keystone XL likely would have been more effective if it focused on (potential) environmental impacts as well as the spill that occurred in 2017. I think that's what the Biden administration focused on when it cancelled the permits.
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    PolitiFact's article is foolishly splitting hairs. The concern about Keystone XL's exports was never about the oil but the refined products (gas, etc). The Texas refineries that would have been at the XL's terminus already export a majority of their refined products. They're not the only refineries that handle heavy crude but they are the ones with the easiest access to the export markets of Central and South America.
    - kodah 5y ago
      > It is true that exports of petroleum products from Gulf Coast refineries have increased considerably in recent years. That’s part of why PolitiFact rated a similar statement by Obama Mostly False in 2014. While the trend adds a grain of truth to her claim, it does not mean all of the oil that will come from the Keystone XL pipeline will be immediately exported. I don't think it's splitting hairs, that's the main point of the conclusion. What she said: The Keystone XL pipeline "doesn’t even have any oil for America." is verifiably untrue.
vlovich123 5y ago
It’s kind of shocking that it takes 10 years to build something like this, no? Seems like there should be a way to streamline this process.
- cryptonector 5y ago
  We have an EPA. China doesn't. It's easier to build these things in places where people are too poor to care about the environment or don't get to (because their governments don't) care about the environment.
  - SilasX 5y ago
    There's no way to protect the environment but by making a new refinery take ten years?
    - cryptonector 5y ago
      Right or wrong, that is basically what happens.
      - SilasX 5y ago
        Then it’s not the good justification for the ten year lag you were presenting it as. I really don’t know what you think that comment was contributing.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    China has environmental protection agencies, they just aren't so incompetent that they take a decade to process a application. "The competent department of environmental protection administration under the State Council shall conduct unified supervision and management of the environmental protection work throughout the country." http://www.china.org.cn/english/environment/34356.htm http://www.china.org.cn/english/environment/34356.htm
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
badloginagain 5y ago
Venezuela oil industry is literally falling apart, the real amount of oil they could produce with lifted sanctions doesn't make much of a dent in global demand. Oil markets are pretty tight to begin with- they're finely tuned to react to even marginal shifts in supply/demand. Have massive changes like the lockdowns or turn off a major supplier, you see equally massive swings in price, backwardation/contango levels, etc.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  Their equipment is in bad shape because sanctions have prevented them from buying supplies, parts, tools, and services. When they're able to purchase those (which could be soon [0]), the equipment will be fixed. All it took to get rid of sanctions on a nation that has never harmed or threatened anyone was for one of their competitors in the petroleum market to invade another nation... [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officials-meet-with-regime-in-venezuela-to-discuss-oil-exports-to-replace-russias-11646591752 https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officials-meet-with-regime-...
  - zubiaur 5y ago
    Industry sanctions started in 2018. Their production had been declining since 2014. It's not just an issue of equipment. Its also a brain drain, corruption, lack of a functional justice system, legal guarantees, property rights... Competent Venezuelan oil professionals have been fleeing the country and can be found in Colombia, Brazil, and other oil producing countries farther away. The Venezuelan regime is far, far from being harmless and nonthreatening, their human violations are numerous and nobody is suffering the consequences of their actions more than Venezuelans themselves. I've seen the plight of their people on the immigrants who fled to my own country. Even their own PDVSA stars don't drink the Kool-aid... It was sad to share a table with disillusioned young, bright, venezuelan engineers at the SPE Latin America Heavy and Extra Heavy Oil Conference, so ask me how I know...
    - jessaustin 5y ago
      Sanctions on PDVSA started in 2014. Sanctions that effectively limited the import of medical supplies started in 2015. [0] The Venezuelan emigrants you see in your nation are fleeing the depression caused by those sanctions. After that stops, many of them will return to Venezuela. [0] https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Timeline-of-Half-a-Decade-of-US-Economic-War-Against-Venezuela-20190521-0011.html https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Timeline-of-Half-a-Decad...
antattack 5y ago
Goes to reason that heavy crude refineries should be able to process light crude just fine since light crude is just a fraction of the heavy one. What likely is the issue is the cost - refineries will make less money refining light crude oil as part of them will be underutilized. One thing that article did not mention is that perhaps refineries have setup to refine heavy crude because of Canada's tar sands and XL pipeline.
fredophile 5y ago
Does that con on Canadian oil apply to all Canadian oil or just oil extracted from tar sands?
- zubiaur 5y ago
  Just tar sands.
axiolite 5y ago
> The most geopolitically stable supplier of heavy and super heavy crude oil is just north of our border. Canada. The pipeline that was meant to bring their crude, the keystone pipeline was cancelled after its permits were revoked. You act as if that was the only pipeline from Canada. There are several others. Here's a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enbridge_Pipeline_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enbridge_Pipeline_System The US' energy needs don't rise and fall on the approval of one single pipeline project.

nradov 5y ago

If we get really desperate, expanded drilling off the coast of California along with building another refinery near Santa Barbara could also be part of the solution. Of course many of us in California would oppose this, for understandable reasons.

giantrobot 5y ago

> The pipeline that was meant to bring their crude, the keystone pipeline was cancelled after its permits were revoked. The Keystone XL pipeline was meant to take Canadian oil to the Gulf of Mexico to refineries intending to export it. Very little of the refinery infrastructure at the terminal end of the pipeline was equipped to redistribute it domestically. Something like 70% of the oil transported by Keystone XL would have been for export.

Teever 5y ago
Also as a Canadian I'm a little baffled why we should be prioritizing building pipelines that run north to south to export our oil when we can run pipelines east to west to supply our own people and export on our own shores.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Many reasons: Because the market is bigger and demand is greater Because Quebec is powered by hydro and doesn't need oil and doesn't want the pipeline going east because they sell power. The eastern provinces get oil from offshore locally or from Saudi/middle east so the cost doesn't make sense. The oil is going south anyways on trucks. The pipeline took so many trucks off the road.
  - soperj 5y ago
    >Because Quebec is powered by hydro and doesn't need oil and doesn't want the pipeline going east because they sell power. Quebec uses tons of oil every day, whenever they fill up their cars. Most of it comes from Saudi Arabia, brought into the Irving Refinery in New Brunswick. Irving would use Canadian oil if they could get it.
    - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
      Sorry but this is factually incorrect. The majority of Quebec's oil is from Alberta, with some small amount being from the US and only a tiny portion coming from the Irving refinery. https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles-quebec.html https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/pr... "Line 9 has been delivering crude oil from Sarnia, Ontario to Montreal since its reversal became operational in December 2015. The line has a capacity of 300 Mb/d and transports a combination of oil from western Canada and the U.S. Midwest. In 2018, deliveries of imported and eastern Canadian crude oil on the Portland-Montreal Pipeline fell to an average 2.5 Mb/d, less than 1% of its capacity." (italics mine) That being said, GPP is partially correct: Quebec is the highest electricity producer and consumer in Canada, but it's almost entirely hydroelectric and their electricity is cheap. "Quebec’s emissions per capita are the lowest in Canada at 9.4 tonnes CO2e – 52% below the Canadian average of 19.6 tonnes per capita." With the highest electric vehicle uptake in the country, and the lowest greenhouse gas emissions, seems Quebec has the right to be smug (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFAAdOBB1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFAAdOBB1c) Anyways, please don't spread political disinformation. Quebec is not a significant consumer of Saudi oil, despite what Jason Kenney has to say about it.
kodah 5y ago
I was curious about this so I looked around. From what I can tell it looks like what you're saying is part of a political disinformation campaign started by Kirsten Gillibrand. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/apr/16/kirsten-gillibrand/will-oil-keystone-xl-pipeline-stay-us/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/apr/16/kirsten-gi... https://www.lsu.edu/hss/english/files/university_writing_files/item53134.pdf https://www.lsu.edu/hss/english/files/university_writing_fil... (Page 5) If I understand these summaries correctly: 1. Countries in Latin America are developing and therefore using more oil so they have less to share with us. 2. We are consuming slightly more oil. 3. Oil obtained from hostile and unreliable regions should be replaced. The effects would be that oil consumed from the pipeline would be cheaper, it would be more reliable, and while not being totally for domestic use would make a significant dent in our oil consumption in the right categories. Edit: Opposition to the Keystone XL likely would have been more effective if it focused on (potential) environmental impacts as well as the spill that occurred in 2017. I think that's what the Biden administration focused on when it cancelled the permits.
- giantrobot 5y ago
  PolitiFact's article is foolishly splitting hairs. The concern about Keystone XL's exports was never about the oil but the refined products (gas, etc). The Texas refineries that would have been at the XL's terminus already export a majority of their refined products. They're not the only refineries that handle heavy crude but they are the ones with the easiest access to the export markets of Central and South America.
  - kodah 5y ago
    > It is true that exports of petroleum products from Gulf Coast refineries have increased considerably in recent years. That’s part of why PolitiFact rated a similar statement by Obama Mostly False in 2014. While the trend adds a grain of truth to her claim, it does not mean all of the oil that will come from the Keystone XL pipeline will be immediately exported. I don't think it's splitting hairs, that's the main point of the conclusion. What she said: The Keystone XL pipeline "doesn’t even have any oil for America." is verifiably untrue.

vlovich123 5y ago

It’s kind of shocking that it takes 10 years to build something like this, no? Seems like there should be a way to streamline this process.

cryptonector 5y ago
We have an EPA. China doesn't. It's easier to build these things in places where people are too poor to care about the environment or don't get to (because their governments don't) care about the environment.
- SilasX 5y ago
  There's no way to protect the environment but by making a new refinery take ten years?
  - cryptonector 5y ago
    Right or wrong, that is basically what happens.
    - SilasX 5y ago
      Then it’s not the good justification for the ten year lag you were presenting it as. I really don’t know what you think that comment was contributing.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  China has environmental protection agencies, they just aren't so incompetent that they take a decade to process a application. "The competent department of environmental protection administration under the State Council shall conduct unified supervision and management of the environmental protection work throughout the country." http://www.china.org.cn/english/environment/34356.htm http://www.china.org.cn/english/environment/34356.htm
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago

badloginagain 5y ago

Venezuela oil industry is literally falling apart, the real amount of oil they could produce with lifted sanctions doesn't make much of a dent in global demand. Oil markets are pretty tight to begin with- they're finely tuned to react to even marginal shifts in supply/demand. Have massive changes like the lockdowns or turn off a major supplier, you see equally massive swings in price, backwardation/contango levels, etc.

jessaustin 5y ago
Their equipment is in bad shape because sanctions have prevented them from buying supplies, parts, tools, and services. When they're able to purchase those (which could be soon [0]), the equipment will be fixed. All it took to get rid of sanctions on a nation that has never harmed or threatened anyone was for one of their competitors in the petroleum market to invade another nation... [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officials-meet-with-regime-in-venezuela-to-discuss-oil-exports-to-replace-russias-11646591752 https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officials-meet-with-regime-...
- zubiaur 5y ago
  Industry sanctions started in 2018. Their production had been declining since 2014. It's not just an issue of equipment. Its also a brain drain, corruption, lack of a functional justice system, legal guarantees, property rights... Competent Venezuelan oil professionals have been fleeing the country and can be found in Colombia, Brazil, and other oil producing countries farther away. The Venezuelan regime is far, far from being harmless and nonthreatening, their human violations are numerous and nobody is suffering the consequences of their actions more than Venezuelans themselves. I've seen the plight of their people on the immigrants who fled to my own country. Even their own PDVSA stars don't drink the Kool-aid... It was sad to share a table with disillusioned young, bright, venezuelan engineers at the SPE Latin America Heavy and Extra Heavy Oil Conference, so ask me how I know...
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    Sanctions on PDVSA started in 2014. Sanctions that effectively limited the import of medical supplies started in 2015. [0] The Venezuelan emigrants you see in your nation are fleeing the depression caused by those sanctions. After that stops, many of them will return to Venezuela. [0] https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Timeline-of-Half-a-Decade-of-US-Economic-War-Against-Venezuela-20190521-0011.html https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Timeline-of-Half-a-Decad...

antattack 5y ago

Goes to reason that heavy crude refineries should be able to process light crude just fine since light crude is just a fraction of the heavy one. What likely is the issue is the cost - refineries will make less money refining light crude oil as part of them will be underutilized. One thing that article did not mention is that perhaps refineries have setup to refine heavy crude because of Canada's tar sands and XL pipeline.

fredophile 5y ago

Does that con on Canadian oil apply to all Canadian oil or just oil extracted from tar sands?

zubiaur 5y ago
Just tar sands.

axiolite 5y ago

> The most geopolitically stable supplier of heavy and super heavy crude oil is just north of our border. Canada. The pipeline that was meant to bring their crude, the keystone pipeline was cancelled after its permits were revoked. You act as if that was the only pipeline from Canada. There are several others. Here's a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enbridge_Pipeline_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enbridge_Pipeline_System The US' energy needs don't rise and fall on the approval of one single pipeline project.