14 ms·

Venting doesn’t work

254 points by miobrien 5y ago

snarkerson 5y ago
Tamping down emotions and keeping them wrapped up has always worked well.
ar_lan 5y ago
> Recent headlines have shared tales of venting by everyone from Olympians to Russell Westbrook to moms meeting in a park to scream. Russell Westbrook is an Olympian...
biesnecker 5y ago
The hell it doesn’t! Let me tell you … ;-)
sudden_dystopia 5y ago
If true, wouldn’t this undermine the entire psychiatric approach of behavioral cognitive therapy and ideas such as confronting one’s fears and talking through problems?
- k__ 5y ago
  In my experience, therapy wasn't venting, it structured approaches to deal with the reasons that led to the need for venting.
- mikkergp 5y ago
  I think there's a difference between mindlessly venting and mindfully stepping through thought processes.
- jsnodlin 5y ago
- joshuacc 5y ago
  I’m not sure why. “Venting” doesn’t seem to have much overlap with CBT other than words being involved.
- user-the-name 5y ago
- jboynyc 5y ago
  From TFA: “chatting with friends can bring closure when they help you reconstrue an event, rather than just recount it. What does that look like? Asking why you think the other person acted that way, prodding to see whether there’s anything to be learned from it all, and just generally broadening your perspective to ‘the grand scheme of things.’ Unfortunately, this type of meaning-making is far from common outside of therapy”
  - floatrock 5y ago
    Article also mentioned the “The thoughts you water are the ones that grow" idiom. CBT is often about reframing or "reconstrueing" a negative or damaging viewpoint into something less emotionally charged. Venting is just watering and reinforcing the emotionally charged pathways -- the "gasoline on a fire" analogy.
- mwattsun 5y ago
  I went through a Veterans Administration course of CBT and In Vivo Exposure Therapy and it was nothing like the "primal scream" therapies I did in the 90's that you may be thinking of. I thought "venting" was disproven to work in the late last century. That said, anything that interrupts a looping thought process is good. I've gone to the beach and rolled around in the cold pounding surf just to reset my head. https://centerforanxietydisorders.com/treatment-programs/in-vivo-exposure-therapy/ https://centerforanxietydisorders.com/treatment-programs/in-...
- bena 5y ago
  CBT is nearly the opposite of venting. Venting is just pouring out raw emotion, no confrontation. Venting is "John is an asshole who couldn't find his way out of a wet paper bag. I hope that fucker's entire dick just falls off. He doesn't deserve jack shit." CBT is more measured. You acknowledge the feeling, but you separate yourself from it. "Yes, I'm mad. I'm mad because of THING. THING upsets me because I believe it should be like THIS. My options are THESE." Venting is letting your emotions drive your actions. CBT is letting your reason temper your emotion. You control your actions in spite of your emotions.
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  Those are entirely different concepts. "Confronting one's fears" is usually about forcing yourself to accept and internalize that your fears are unfounded. Good examples are a fear of roller coasters, fear of flying, or basically anything else that is 99.999% harmless. Talking through problems is way to guide you (and potentially another person) into understanding, acceptance, and compromise.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  If the headline is true, yes. If the article is true, the opposite.
swagasaurus-rex 5y ago
Stop using small sample sized studies done on college campuses (n = 600, 178, 60) to push clickbait headline articles. Sounds like saying, "Don't cry when you're sad it Doesn't Work" How about let people do what they want? People vent because they want to know they aren't crazy or at fault. Not because they're trying to be calm or forget grievances.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  Like almost all analogies - it's a bad analogy. Catharsis has a long history of study and proponents of catharsis have yet to get a "win".
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    I think you missed an opportunity for a "find relief".
  - peteradio 5y ago
    When I bang my thumb with a hammer I yell FUUUUUCCCCKKKKKK as loud as I can, are you telling me that doesn't make the pain less? I'm almost 100% certain that form of catharsis works. It even works in reverse for me, if I'm having a moment of intense emotional strain, punching the wall (also yelling fuck as loud as possible) resets my brain. To say catharsis doesn't work seems to be a limitation of the definition of catharsis in these studies.
    - JAlexoid 5y ago
      That's mischaracterization of catharsis. As for releasing intense emotional strain - you're more likely to lash out. Have you tried not punching the wall and have a time out instead? Because people who "punch the wall" are, according to multiple studies, more likely to lash out and be abusive.
      - mikepurvis 5y ago
        > Because people who "punch the wall" are, according to multiple studies, more likely to lash out and be abusive. Presumably the wall-punching and tendency toward other physical/emotional abuses are tied to one or more underlying common causes. That is, people shouldn't be told to punch a wall (for cartharsis) or even necessarily not to do so (because it'll make you abusive), but those for whom that is a temptation or tendency should seek assistance to uncover and address the root causes.
awb 5y ago
It sounds like the aggressive behavior was measured pretty soon after hitting the punching bag. It would be interesting to run the test again after the adrenaline has worn off. I don't think proponents of catharsis are claiming that screaming at a tree if going to instantly make you calmer, it's that later that day you might feel better. Also, participants were instructed to focus their anger on the perpetrator of the criticism, whereas it's probably healthier and more effective to simply focus on releasing your aggression. Or, a combo study would be interesting where participants are instructed to hit a punching bag and then try to empathize with themselves or others, vs. only trying to empathize. Anyway, it's an interesting study, but I'm not sure I'd rule out catharsis just yet.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  Do you know of a single study that supports catharsis? Because all studies I know of disprove or end up inconclusive.
  - antisthenes 5y ago
    I know catharsis was extremely helpful in my grieving process. Realistically, I'm not sure how you would even design a study to accurately measure the effects. Any sort of cathartic experience would necessarily be self-reported and we all know the accuracy of self-report studies.
    - JAlexoid 5y ago
      One of a few studies I've read followed people and found that people who engage in catharsis do it more often and have lower tolerances to irritants. One of the earlier studies just had people's anger tracked(anger has a very clear physiological response). So no need to have it self reported.
    - klyrs 5y ago
      For the value of an anecdote: in my grieving process, I tried several forms of catharsis: hitting a heavy bag, yelling, running and biking angry. In every case, it made me more angry. I got worse. The anger turned inward. It wasn't until I stopped that approach that I made any progress in my grief. > Any sort of cathartic experience would necessarily be self-reported and we all know the accuracy of self-report studies. That's not true. In the article, they mention observational studies wherein folks who vent are more likely to lash out. That isn't self-reporting.
ascii_pasta 5y ago
There's a saying "the squeeky wheel get's the grease". People usually do what works for them. thats exactly why we still see fist fights, disinformation, yelling, racisim, war, complaining, etc. It does what it was intended to do. Otherwise, people would do something else.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  A leaky cauldron gets thrown out, is the counterargument here. If you want to be angrier or as angry - catharsis is great.
  - ascii_pasta 5y ago
    Thats why I love these types of sayings! It doesnt always get grease, does it! It depends on the usefulness of the source of the squeek! For me it translates as 'be worth helping'. This even works for your couldron, is it worth fixing?
Shadonototra 5y ago
what a selfish mindset venting produce effects, it make the reader understand other people's feeling without knowing them if makes them learn about people and their frustrations ultimately, it gives them the opportunity to come up with a direct or indirect response to them
amelius 5y ago
> Venting anger is like using gasoline to put out a fire. There could be some truth to it. Since I started venting on HN about how bad ads, drm, social media, and patents are, their prevalence has increased!
JAlexoid 5y ago
Catharsis(aka venting) has had a multiple studies saying that it doesn't work. Stop venting. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1967-02716-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1967-02716-001 - it's even in the abstract.
- antisthenes 5y ago
  This is your 3rd post in the thread, alleging that catharsis doesn't work. Now, personally, I don't have skin in the game, so I can't tell you whether it works or not. But the fact that you're citing a 1967 psych study done on 9 year old kids tells me you have some kind of agenda for whatever reason. Not only are most psych studies flat out junk, but the 50s and 60s was the time of particularly egregious junk science. Remember, that's the time they still did lobotomies. Besides, the study you cited only limits itself to cathartic aggression, which is clearly not the only case for the experience.
  - JAlexoid 5y ago
    I can link you to another bunch. Because I took interest on the subject. I've been told to "vent" almost all of my life and only a few years ago I got exposed to this research. I'm citing one of the earlier ones and there's plenty of newer studies. My "allegations" are based in research and not empty words(unlike the accusations in your comment)
    - julianeon 5y ago
      It's pretty incredible how few comments in this thread are saying "huh, this is interesting, I should try this, research backs it up." That's the engineer or HN way, isn't it? (Not being sarcastic, I include myself in this). When data comes along which disproves or at least weakens a previously held position, adjust your priors and try it out. Note: you can say "not until it's proven" but I can cite plenty of less weakly supported positions than "catharsis doesn't work" that have been enthusiastically taken up here. Consider trusting the data, at least a little bit, especially if you have a strongly emotional, but not well supported, response. This is the way (of the engineer).
rectang 5y ago
Thought experiment: two groups of people, a control group and one told "stop venting". 1. Which group achieves more success in solving their underlying problem? 2. Which group exhibits higher levels of psychological satisfaction?
oversocialized 5y ago
byoffor88 5y ago
birdmanjeremy 5y ago
"Stop Venting" doesn't just "work" either. Processing your emotions and letting go of them does. David Hawkins' book, aptly named 'Letting Go,' covers this in detail.
vernie 5y ago
Whoops accidentally submitted to HN instead of LinkedIn.
saghm 5y ago
> The idea of venting can be traced as far back as Aristotle, but Freud is the one who really popularized the notion of catharsis. Most of what we assume about the need to “let it out” comes from his assertions about the danger of unexpressed feelings. In the “hydraulic model,” frustration and anger build up inside you and, unless periodically released in small bursts, cause a massive explosion. Starting in the 1960s, this theory was debunked by so many lab experiments that researcher Carol Tavris concluded in 1988, “It is time to put a bullet, once and for all, through the heart of the catharsis hypothesis.” I think there is some truth to the original theory, but not all "venting" is equal. I definitely have at times experienced growing resentment towards people in my life due to not fully confronting the feelings I had about my interactions with them, but in general I don't think that angry outbursts are a healthy way to deal with this. In an ideal relationship (general term, not necessarily "romantic relationship"), I think honest but empathetic and non-judgmental conversations between the parties is often going to be the only way to truly alleviate those feelings; being able to tell someone why you were hurt by their actions without judging them and then being able to hear the same without reacting defensively is much more effective than complaining to a third party, but it requires a level of trust and understanding that is usually not going to be present for anything but close family members or long time friends. Given that, I think there is value in talking through the issues with a neutral third party, but it can be hard to avoid falling into spiral of anger and resentment, which I think is why seeing a therapist or psychologist is such a common treatment. I don't think that being able to neutrally help someone deal with their feelings of anger or resentment is some kind of superpower or anything, but like any skill, there are some methods that are more effective and some that are less effective, so having some sort of training on the matter generally is helpful. Most importantly though, they still need to build that same level of trust and understanding with the patient, which I think is the most common reason that therapy isn't able to help some people; if you're not open to the idea of learning to trust and get helped in therapy, it's going to be hard to actually resolve anything.
skeeter2020 5y ago
Venting totally CAN work in customer support situations. You let someone pour out confusing and undirected anger/fear/frustration and then you get to work solving the underlying problem or pain point.
artursapek 5y ago
To stop venting would mean to stop going to therapy, lol
kstenerud 5y ago
I think they've missed the point. Venting isn't for catharsis; It's for seeking validation. When you vent TO someone and they lend a sympathetic ear, it's a huge help. Venting is a social bonding ritual. You generally don't get this online because most of the audience is NOT sympathetic, so you'll get criticism after criticism, making things even worse.
- nonrandomstring 5y ago
  Yes it's a communicative act. Communication can be bounced off others for social validation as you say, but can also be to oneself. You'd still vent, if alone on a desert island, maybe to The Gods. Ever hear yourself saying out loud, usually with expletives, something that you would "never say"? Listen to that voice! That's communication of unconscious but frustrated thoughts. Sometimes it has to come out verbally because ones inner dialogue isn't strong enough due to social or superego suppression. After you said it to yourself you feel better. We are not the singular identities simpler minds suppose us.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  There are lots of sympathetic audiences online too— see relationship or parenting vents on tiktok, where the comments are often just wall-to-wall supportive, with crown emojis, slogans like "SLAYYYY!" etc. Twitch "just chatting" streams can be like this sometimes too. But I do wonder how much of it actually lands for the recipient. As an influencer putting out a carefully curated image of yourself, how meaningful is it to be boosted by a bunch of mostly-anonymous strangers? Wouldn't it just feed into a kind of dissociative thing where you recognize that they're praising and lifting up a mask and have no idea about the particulars of the real person's struggles? I don't know.
- munificent 5y ago
  100% agree. Anger usually stems from a boundary being violated. It's our instinctive evolved response for pushing back against someone who has encroached on us. When we "vent" to a peer, it is relieving because it transfers that personal boundary to a group boundary. We feel "OK, my peer will now back me up the next time this happens." Venting is like yelling for reinforcements when you see someone storming your corner of the castle wall.
blhack 5y ago
One of the most stressful projects I ever worked on had a really great way of dealing with the stress (a policy that I created). Every meeting, at the beginning of the meeting, everybody was required to complain for 5 minutes. Just talk about all the stupid decisions that got us to this point, how unreasonable the timeline was, any staffing issues you were having, any parts you needed, etc. 5 minutes. You are required to complain. It helped a LOT, and almost a decade later when I interact with that team, we still all look back glowingly on that practice as something good. It was a tense project, and that "you have to complain for 5 minutes" completely broke all of the tension, and let us all work together effectively. If we hadn't implemented that policy, we might not have finished the project on time.
- dudul 5y ago
  How did you make sure that no one would complain that "Bob was an idiot who kept breaking the build", or "Alice never does her code reviews and blocks everyone"?
  - J5892 5y ago
    Best approach: Don't hire people like that. Good approach: Specify that complaints be non-specific to a person on the team.
    - yunohn 5y ago
      > Specify that complaints be non-specific to a person on the team. Very often, it is the case that a specific person /is/ the problem.
      - J5892 5y ago
        Well yeah, but just don't call them out. If you identify a problem, the person responsible will (usually) know you're talking about them, and may even appreciate that you're not calling them out in front of the team. If necessary, you can always reach out to them one-on-one afterwards.
Metacelsus 5y ago
From the title I thought this would be about ventilation and COVID.
unfocussed_mike 5y ago
This is true, I suspect. Except if you make it funny. Funny venting -- exasperated joking -- is an enormously effective stress reduction tactic. The key point really I guess is that you have to have gone looking for the laugh before you let it out; that is likely the therapeutic value. "HELLO POLLLLLLYYYYY!"
keerthiko 5y ago
A proper venting process, like a heatsink or coolant, needs a mechanism to absorb the unwanted energy efficiently, and then disperse it. Asking folks to express anger or spend energy without it specifically drawing from the negative emotions within is like pouring coolant fluid from a bottle over your CPU box. I think carefully channelled energy, however, can really help calm. I don't necessarily think it's catharsis really, as it would tend closer to meditation. Practising a martial art, trying to focus on something creative, going on a long run, playing a mentally demanding game (chess, go, starcraft) — with the right mindset, these allow you to harness your negative feelings into an activity that exists in its own sandbox, and then get processed in a way that only makes sense inside that sandbox. It's important that your activity is one where you have practised not getting further enraged (no 'tilting', as we say in video games) when you fail/perform badly inside your sandbox. When you leave the sandbox, you find a tiny bit more peace with whatever enraged you.
motohagiography 5y ago
Can't help but think the term "toxic," discredits the whole thing as a vehicle for something else. Aggression is natural and universal, but the tools for expressing and self-regulating it are not. One description of it that resonated personally for me was Robert Sapolsky's "depression is aggression turned inward," and while the phrase doesn't do the whole idea justice, it's more useful than hollow and seductive cliches like toxicity. Arguably, aggression is necessarily an artifact of ideas of self and how we relate to others, and "venting" aggression safely lets you accept it (and yourself) in its totality and gives you a sense of how to manage it, instead of suppressing it and fearing that it will be exposed, only to have it come out in perverse other ways anyway. What bothers me about a lot of psychology is it seems mainly like a critical theory for deconstructing mental suffering as a means to relieve it theraputically - which is noble and useful, but it has been adopted as a scheme for moralizing coarse political interests. Some years ago I turned a lot of my aggression outward and into disagreeableness, replacing a few intense relationships that enabled turning it inward with many new ones that did not, and it has made me more likeable, honest, trustworthy, reliable, fairer, and more sincerely compassionate, and as a result I have never been more content. It sets a healthy boundary where your natural aggression doesn't get triggered nearly as often, and you can manage it in other ways. Yes, some people will think you are an asshole, but the little bit of friction and occasional loss of a connection does not compare to relief and peace of just not caring what they think, and being free to engage people for only the enjoyment of it instead of some absurd sense of obligation. Or not.
- eric-hu 5y ago
  Did you apply this concept from a book or other set of writings? I’m just curious about this process and would like to learn more.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- bduerst 5y ago
  Maybe this is wrong, but it sounds like you were in toxic relationships, ones which you were able to escape by asserting your boundaries. Asserting yourself is a little different than being hostile and/or violent, which is what aggression is usually considered. In any case and semantics aside, congrats on removing relationships that were pushing you inwards and making you unhappy. Like the article mentions, brain pathways and behavior are like hiking paths, it's incredibly difficult to forge new ones and continually use them until it's normal.
kashyapc 5y ago
From Robert Sapolsky's Behave, I learnt about the notion of "displacement aggression". We know what it is intuitively, but in short: depressingly enough, the reason stress encourages aggression is that it reduces stress. And we don't yet know the underlying biology of it. - - - Excuse the wall of text, but it's entirely worth reading Sapolsky's description of this: [quote] Shock a rat and its glucocorticoid levels [a key stress-signaller] and blood pressure rise; with enough shocks, it’s at risk for a “stress” ulcer. Various things can buffer the rat during shocks—running on a running wheel, eating, gnawing on wood in frustration. But a particularly effective buffer is for the rat to bite another rat. Stress-induced (aka frustration-induced) displacement aggression is ubiquitous in various species. Among baboons, for example, nearly half of aggression is this type—a high-ranking male loses a fight and chases a subadult male, who promptly bites a female, who then lunges at an infant. My research shows that within the same dominance rank, the more a baboon tends to displace aggression after losing a fight, the lower his glucocorticoid levels. Humans excel at stress-induced displacement aggression—consider how economic downturns increase rates of spousal and child abuse. Or consider a study of family violence and pro football. If the local team unexpectedly loses, spousal/partner violence by men increases 10 percent soon afterward (with no increase when the team won or was expected to lose). [...] Little is known concerning the neurobiology of displacement aggression blunting the stress response. I’d guess that lashing out activates dopaminergic reward pathways, a surefire way to inhibit CRH release [a hormone involved in the stress response]. Far too often, giving an ulcer helps avoid getting one. [/quote]
- klenwell 5y ago
  A couple people have mentioned Sapolsky and he came to my mind also. Here's a comment I made a while back along the same lines on an article about why swearing (as a form of venting) does work (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12229422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12229422). Sapolsky again on rats and baboons (from Why Zebra’s Don’t Get Ulcers): A variant of Weiss's experiment uncovers a special feature of the outlet-for-frustration reaction. This time, when the rat gets the identical series of electric shocks and is upset, it can run across the cage, sit next to another rat and... bite the hell out of it. Stress-induced displacement of aggression: the practice works wonders at minimizing the stressfulness of a stressor. It's a real primate specialty as well. A male baboon loses a fight. Frustrated, he spins around and attacks a subordinate male who was minding his own business. An extremely high percentage of primate aggression represent frustration displaced onto innocent bystanders. I recently left a job and boss where this dynamic was very much in play (more blaming than biting but obvious displacement aggression all the same). My conclusion: swearing (venting) might be seen as a more civilized form of displacing stress-induced aggression.
deleted 5y ago
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lcuff 5y ago
Doing good science around this kind of stuff is extremely difficult ... My personal experience with Psychodrama and Gestalt in the late '70s and early '80s was that for someone like myself who was very much 'in my head', it was an opportunity to acknowledge my own repressed anger. But in retrospect, it was/is also behavior rehearsal for bad behavior in the rest of my life. More effective was modern Somatic Experience techniques where the impulse to respond in anger is explored with a lot of inner attention and slow-motion movements of pushing away and/or striking back. I would call it more grounded and more present. There is dissociation that occurred for me with so-called cathartic anger. The variation in 'venting' adds to the complexity of the conversation. Physical venting vs naming sources of anger/frustration. Based on my personal experience, physical venting is far less effective than verbal venting, and of course verbal venting is massively variable. Naming the exact source of frustration strikes me as more likely to be usefully defusing than just shouting that someone is an f-ing a*hole. I can imagine the inclusion of humor, for example, would have a huge impact.
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
This seems like a great case of a bad headline derailing discussion. The first study quoted uses hitting a punching bag as an example of venting. I’d contrast that against what I think of as venting: talking about what’s bothering you without looking for the discussion to solve anything other than providing space to say what you’re feeling. When they say venting doesn’t work, they’re referring to a specific kind of venting. > In more general terms, embracing our feelings isn’t the same as expressing them, and not all forms of expression are created equal. Realizing “I’m angry” (always OK) is a different beast from telling someone “I’m angry” (sometimes OK), and it’s even further from berating a loved one for causing your anger (not OK). It’s a good article with a nuanced point, and all the discussion reacting to the shitty headline is a shame.
nineplay 5y ago
I've found the problem with venting can be that it cements an idea in your head. This is particularly true with people. If I find myself venting that <X> doesn't know what the heck they're doing, I've internally solidified that belief. If <X> improves, if I'm on another project with <X> where they clearly have a lot of knowledge, then it can still be too late. I've verbalized to myself ( and worse, my partner ) that X is incompetent and I'm not going to easily let that go. I think it's true with other things. <Y> is a terrible idea, <Z>'s code base is a mess. If I let it role over me, notice things without forcing an opinion, I'm more likely to realize I've judged to soon.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  This is an interesting one particularly when it comes to listening well in intimate relationships— the wisdom is that men are generally worse listeners and have a tendency to want fix things rather than just being present with their partner to understand how they are feeling and where they are at. And that learning to do this and learning to ask for it, are important pieces of long term relationship success. All of which makes sense, but I do think some of the times when I've struggled with this was maybe tied into what your describing: a concern that while my partner's feelings of hurt or whatever were total valid, I found it hard to separate validating just the feelings while not also validating what I felt were unfair judgments/characterizations about the people or situations involved, and was nervous that letting those judgments go by unaddressed was indeed going to cement them as a future factual reference point.
- caddemon 5y ago
  I agree with this to some extent, but I think when I get to the point of externally venting I've already pretty strongly internalized the thought. My larger concern with venting is that it seems to encourage bad next step coping strategies for me. I vent that "X is terrible so it's hard for me to get anything done" and oftentimes this gets validated in a way that encourages the "not getting anything done" part, which isn't helpful even when X actually is terrible. There's a fine line between recognizing that you're in a difficult situation and giving yourself an excuse to fail, at least for me. Like a lot of things, venting is probably good in moderation, as long as you are able to keep it in moderation. The most recent situation I was in I had trouble telling how much of the problem was on me, and then by venting to some coworkers I pretty quickly discovered that nearly everyone felt the same way about X. This was comforting at first, but the more we vented the more I felt justified in blowing off work. I didn't even replace that time with anything personally productive unfortunately. I've regrouped now and am working on getting out of the project the right way, but I wish I handled it better in the first place.
cosmiccatnap 5y ago
kazinator 5y ago
> As one researcher put it, “Venting anger is like using gasoline to put out a fire.” The analogy holds only if the problem is one that is in some way exacerbated (i.e. fueled by) anger (even if only by growing worse due to appropriate action not being taken due to focus on anger). If anger is not relevant to the problem, then no. For instance, if you're angry that 2 + 2 isn't 5, venting will not make that issue escalate; 2 + 2 will not get farther away from 5 just to spite you for venting.
samatman 5y ago
Unpopular opinion, I expect, but until, and unless, there is a reckoning with the replication crisis in psychology, Hacker News should treat this kind of article the same way they would treat one which takes homeopathy seriously. I've flagged it as irrelevant and suggest you do so also.
WaitWaitWha 5y ago
People do not vent anger. People vent frustration. Anger is usually a follow-up because the person does not have a motion forward or solution to the frustrating element. In my experience people vent their frustration because they are stuck in their thinking and instinctively want to share it with others in hope the trusted person can give a way out, or comfort them.
lanstin 5y ago
Work for what? People vent for pleasure, not as part of a plan. Clearly a more rational response to anger is to let it dissipate without losing your cool, then let your best self decide what to do. But sometimes sharing a beer with a friend and going over the sins of those rat bastards that are fucking everything up is by God really fun. Like many pleasures, it is best in moderation. And should probably be done once you aren't so mad that you disturb your equanimity.
deleted 5y ago
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trynewideas 5y ago
There is likely no good medium- or long-term benefit to venting, especially when it's defined as physical violence directed at objects or verbal aggression directed at people. That's pretty clear. But one of the best pieces of advice my therapist gave me was that under extreme stress, sometimes the only path to making it to the next minute intact is to do something where the long-term benefit isn't clear, or even negative. In those moments, the best we can do is focus on preventing harm to others and minimizing harm to ourselves. (This isn't just about venting, but other stress and trauma reactions.) If a situation is so terrible that there's a chance of having a more brutal breakdown (or in my case, a suicide attempt) if we don't throw a plastic cup at a wall, or scream out the pain, or otherwise do something stupid for that short burst of peace with a relatively high cost, then we won't make it to a point where we can reflect on how we got there, and how to actually get to a better place in the medium- or long-term. Cycles of venting are bad, because constantly venting means constantly being under stress, which means it's harder and harder to step away from it to recognize the sources of the stress and break that cycle. But as a response to a peak in stress, or a sudden trauma, it's a tool - not the best tool, not even a good tool, but if it's the _only_ tool I can reach in time, the advice I got (for myself, which I am not a therapist, and which may not be relevant to you) was to not second-guess whether to use it.
- blamestross 5y ago
  A more general version of this: You, being vaguely competent, are where you are because it is a local optima. Always, to progress to a better state, you are going to take at least some steps down a hill to get there. Sometimes a lot of them. We end up in situations bc the paths past/out of them are not obvious or easy. Don't let an obsession for every step being 'improvement' prevent you from taking the messy up and down path to get somewhere better.
randomsilence 5y ago
>The idea of venting can be traced as far back as Aristotle, but Freud is the one who really popularized the notion of catharsis. Most of what we assume about the need to “let it out” comes from his assertions about the danger of unexpressed feelings. When it comes to 'let it out', it should be traced back even further to the Iliad. At least according to this [1] video by Lindybeige, the Iliad is all about forgiving, after having exhausted every other option, aka after letting it all out. Having said that, the article seems to make a negation error. The opposite of not expressing feelings is not expressing all feelings but expressing some feelings. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofPdMbXzUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofPdMbXzUQ The Iliad - what is it really about?
notfbi 5y ago
I've noticed situations on the job where I've had little issues with management on my own, but experienced going out with drinks/coffees with gossipy venting colleagues and me internalizing their anger. This prima-facie seemed like the primary reason they did it. If venting is instead a coalitions/tribal consensus building exercise, the psychologists might need to wait until after the revolution to retest the subject's well-being.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
From my purely anecdotal experience with mentoring younger people, I've seen two main categories of venting: 1) Venting about frustrations by talking them through with someone who will listen. This forces people to put their frustrations into words and elucidate the narrative as they put it into words. This can not only help people identify their feelings and work through them, but it also forces people to decide what a mature response would be. Once you start venting to someone you know, especially someone you respect, you have an incentive to present a mature interpretation and approach to the situation. This can help immensely. 2) The other group tends to want to avoid the mature response part, and instead wants to seek sympathy and confirmation for their frustrations. They deliberately avoid discussing these issues with respected peers or mentors because they know their response is unhealthy and not a good look. They embrace online forums like Reddit and Twitter where they're free to give one-sided stories without fear of their peers calling them out for exaggerating or stretching the details. This type of venting doesn't solve anything because they don't really want solutions in the first place. There's something rewarding or perhaps freeing about hunkering down in the victim role and being showered with sympathy from random internet strangers. I haven't seen any reason to believe the first type of venting (discussing with respected peers, seeking feedback and solutions in the process) is anything but helpful. However, the latter type of venting (online venting to collect sympathy) does seem to be quite damaging from my limited experience. There's something dangerous about going online to bond with others and seek personal affirmation in a way that's fueled by venting frustrations and victimizations. Once inside of those circles, there's an incentive to continue bringing more frustrations and more victimizations to the table to keep the bonding and community contact flowing. The story in the article about going to a park to scream together raises my red flags as such a situation: It becomes an in-group thing where you need to adopt an outward appearance of being very frustrated to fit in with the other people in the group. Not a good incentive for improving the situation.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  Is this http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/why-estranged-parents-forums.html http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/why-estrange... and example of type (2)?
tgv 5y ago
> Neuroscience—specifically, neural plasticity—explains why venting reinforces negative emotions. You can think of our brain circuitry like hiking trails. The ones that get a lot of traffic get smoother and wider, with brush stomped down and pushed back. That is so bad. It assumes that the brain uses one pathway for (different forms of) aggression and one neural mechanism for adapting behavior. It also assumes that the effect is cumulative. None of these are true.
maerF0x0 5y ago
This article talks about "catharsis" catharsis and processing are key to getting past something, but it also depends on if sufficient (time|mental processing) have past to allow one to not become distraught over the situation. see: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/798927.Writing_to_Heal https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/798927.Writing_to_Heal
meowzero 5y ago
Not sure of the validity of the article. But in my experience, my friends and colleagues who vent a lot seem to vent all the time. It seem like their venting is fueling whatever their annoyances is at that moment. I think it's more about regulating your emotions in a calm, rational way. Venting can get emotional and could add fuel to the fire. But if you can achieve talking about the problem in a more calm, empathetic, rational way, it might work better. Of course, easier said than done.
cannonpalms 5y ago
The conclusion here presupposes that other benefits such as increased clarity of the situation and one's own feelings are not present, but in that context vacuum? Sure, I agree.
aseerdbnarng 5y ago
This naturally human response thats existed for longer than commerce needs to be suppressed because it doesn’t further your career. Yup. Makes sense to me.
slowhadoken 5y ago
serenity now!
MrYellowP 5y ago
Venting does work, but there's differences in how you do it. Mindlessly ranting about bullshit doesn't help. Mindfulness is the key. Feelings want to get out. Keeping them inside doesn't do any good.
dane-pgp 5y ago
You just need to make sure no one is around when you vent, otherwise you look really sus.
cryptica 5y ago
For me, venting is absolutely essential. It's my greatest source of motivation. Once I can clearly identify and describe flaws which I see in the system which are holding me back, I can start to look for alternative paths... At the same time, venting helps to raise awareness of systemic flaws; it increases the probability that the flaws will be fixed at some point in the future. So if I vent about some issue today, there is a chance that it will be resolved in maybe 20 years from now... So if I managed to keep working for 20 years straight, I will be among the first in line to benefit from the system being fixed because I'd have been waiting for that fix for so long and keeping tabs on it. For example, I've been venting my frustrations about the fiat monetary system for years while being involved in crypto. I'm just building software while at the same time waiting for the monetary system to get fixed so that my work has a chance of becoming relevant. I'm also benefiting from mainstream crypto projects (not my own) acting as an 'alternative path' since they benefit from the flaws in the monetary system due to the wealth concentrating forces of centralized money-printing. Unfortunately, my own projects cannot benefit from the current fiat system because me and my community are socially too far from the money printers... Though obviously, the Bitcoin network is very close to the sources of freshly printed fiat...
nine_zeros 5y ago
I have vented - about management and to management - often to give a signal that I am frustrated (managers can't read between the lines, they are humans) and to get management to realize that they are doing a bad job. Venting is a very important social tool to account for mediocrity or lackadaisical attitude of others. Venting is not useful if you yourself can do something about it.
TheRealNGenius 5y ago
I hate it when oft times, a completely unrelated picture is inserted into a blog post with seemingly no relation to the actual content of said post.
snvzz 5y ago
As it turns out, Stoicism was the way all along.
FpUser 5y ago
I vent by dancing and swearing in the basement with the music blasting. No harm done and I feel better in the end ;)
danielovichdk 5y ago
This piece is all over the place. And i don't give the studies any value at all. Emotions cannot be measured as such, it's far more complex than that. The underlying emotions caused by so-called venting is the thing which is interesting. Not the venting. It's a side effect of the real emotions underneath. How you express your feelings towards yourself and others is what this is basically about. Anger is most often a layer around grief or sorrow, so the anger-feeling is no more than a hint to that something else is going on deeper inside you[0]. [0] https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/peeling-the-onion-uncovering-our-wounds-in-therapy/ https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/peeling-the-onion-uncoverin...
dharmit 5y ago
This kinda makes sense. I belong to the group of people that either vents or keeps ruminating in the head, while my wife is the opposite. I have suffered from occasional bouts of high blood pressure, while my wife doesn't face any such issues.
omgmajk 5y ago
I find that when and if I vent something I usually always feel anxious about it afterwards. Like I have said something I shouldn't have.
everdrive 5y ago
I think Freudian psychological ideas still have a lot of hold on people, even though in general his theories are generally not taken seriously these days. Under Freud, your emotions are almost like physical substances: you can have “too much” of them, and need to release them. “Releasing” your anger literally removes it from your body in Freudian psychology. I believe this (incorrectly) makes a lot of intuitive sense to people, as it is difficult to maintain a state of full-fledged rage and yelling. ie, you will calm down and the emotion will pass. This is more akin to a biological state: you cannot maintain any feeling indefinitely. But, I do not believe that this means that someone is releasing the emotion in the Freudian sense of the word. In practice, if you “release” your anger in this way often you are simply practicing feeling angry. In other words, you are training your mind to focus on this emotional state, and are therefore most likely increasing the amount of anger you have. You cannot “vent” all this anger because it is not a discrete substance that you can run out of. Instead, you’re behaviorally training yourself to experience anger more often: the opposite what was intended. To the extent that people can “keep emotions bottled up inside,” I believe this simply means just not addressing a point of contention which makes you angry. The point is not to “release” the anger, but to address this issue which is causing the anger. If you’re not addressing it (either by preventing it or coming to peace with it) then you will keep experiencing the point of contention. In that narrow and non-Freudian sense, you are keeping your anger “bottled up.” But, you cannot just “release” your anger: you must address it. Really, there is no releasing anger; there is merely expressing it.

254 points by miobrien 5y ago

Tamping down emotions and keeping them wrapped up has always worked well.

> Recent headlines have shared tales of venting by everyone from Olympians to Russell Westbrook to moms meeting in a park to scream. Russell Westbrook is an Olympian...

biesnecker 5y ago

The hell it doesn’t! Let me tell you … ;-)

sudden_dystopia 5y ago

If true, wouldn’t this undermine the entire psychiatric approach of behavioral cognitive therapy and ideas such as confronting one’s fears and talking through problems?

k__ 5y ago
In my experience, therapy wasn't venting, it structured approaches to deal with the reasons that led to the need for venting.
mikkergp 5y ago
I think there's a difference between mindlessly venting and mindfully stepping through thought processes.
jsnodlin 5y ago
joshuacc 5y ago
I’m not sure why. “Venting” doesn’t seem to have much overlap with CBT other than words being involved.
user-the-name 5y ago
jboynyc 5y ago
From TFA: “chatting with friends can bring closure when they help you reconstrue an event, rather than just recount it. What does that look like? Asking why you think the other person acted that way, prodding to see whether there’s anything to be learned from it all, and just generally broadening your perspective to ‘the grand scheme of things.’ Unfortunately, this type of meaning-making is far from common outside of therapy”
- floatrock 5y ago
  Article also mentioned the “The thoughts you water are the ones that grow" idiom. CBT is often about reframing or "reconstrueing" a negative or damaging viewpoint into something less emotionally charged. Venting is just watering and reinforcing the emotionally charged pathways -- the "gasoline on a fire" analogy.
mwattsun 5y ago
I went through a Veterans Administration course of CBT and In Vivo Exposure Therapy and it was nothing like the "primal scream" therapies I did in the 90's that you may be thinking of. I thought "venting" was disproven to work in the late last century. That said, anything that interrupts a looping thought process is good. I've gone to the beach and rolled around in the cold pounding surf just to reset my head. https://centerforanxietydisorders.com/treatment-programs/in-vivo-exposure-therapy/ https://centerforanxietydisorders.com/treatment-programs/in-...
bena 5y ago
CBT is nearly the opposite of venting. Venting is just pouring out raw emotion, no confrontation. Venting is "John is an asshole who couldn't find his way out of a wet paper bag. I hope that fucker's entire dick just falls off. He doesn't deserve jack shit." CBT is more measured. You acknowledge the feeling, but you separate yourself from it. "Yes, I'm mad. I'm mad because of THING. THING upsets me because I believe it should be like THIS. My options are THESE." Venting is letting your emotions drive your actions. CBT is letting your reason temper your emotion. You control your actions in spite of your emotions.
Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
Those are entirely different concepts. "Confronting one's fears" is usually about forcing yourself to accept and internalize that your fears are unfounded. Good examples are a fear of roller coasters, fear of flying, or basically anything else that is 99.999% harmless. Talking through problems is way to guide you (and potentially another person) into understanding, acceptance, and compromise.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
If the headline is true, yes. If the article is true, the opposite.

swagasaurus-rex 5y ago

Stop using small sample sized studies done on college campuses (n = 600, 178, 60) to push clickbait headline articles. Sounds like saying, "Don't cry when you're sad it Doesn't Work" How about let people do what they want? People vent because they want to know they aren't crazy or at fault. Not because they're trying to be calm or forget grievances.

JAlexoid 5y ago
Like almost all analogies - it's a bad analogy. Catharsis has a long history of study and proponents of catharsis have yet to get a "win".
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  I think you missed an opportunity for a "find relief".
- peteradio 5y ago
  When I bang my thumb with a hammer I yell FUUUUUCCCCKKKKKK as loud as I can, are you telling me that doesn't make the pain less? I'm almost 100% certain that form of catharsis works. It even works in reverse for me, if I'm having a moment of intense emotional strain, punching the wall (also yelling fuck as loud as possible) resets my brain. To say catharsis doesn't work seems to be a limitation of the definition of catharsis in these studies.
  - JAlexoid 5y ago
    That's mischaracterization of catharsis. As for releasing intense emotional strain - you're more likely to lash out. Have you tried not punching the wall and have a time out instead? Because people who "punch the wall" are, according to multiple studies, more likely to lash out and be abusive.
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      > Because people who "punch the wall" are, according to multiple studies, more likely to lash out and be abusive. Presumably the wall-punching and tendency toward other physical/emotional abuses are tied to one or more underlying common causes. That is, people shouldn't be told to punch a wall (for cartharsis) or even necessarily not to do so (because it'll make you abusive), but those for whom that is a temptation or tendency should seek assistance to uncover and address the root causes.

awb 5y ago

It sounds like the aggressive behavior was measured pretty soon after hitting the punching bag. It would be interesting to run the test again after the adrenaline has worn off. I don't think proponents of catharsis are claiming that screaming at a tree if going to instantly make you calmer, it's that later that day you might feel better. Also, participants were instructed to focus their anger on the perpetrator of the criticism, whereas it's probably healthier and more effective to simply focus on releasing your aggression. Or, a combo study would be interesting where participants are instructed to hit a punching bag and then try to empathize with themselves or others, vs. only trying to empathize. Anyway, it's an interesting study, but I'm not sure I'd rule out catharsis just yet.

JAlexoid 5y ago
Do you know of a single study that supports catharsis? Because all studies I know of disprove or end up inconclusive.
- antisthenes 5y ago
  I know catharsis was extremely helpful in my grieving process. Realistically, I'm not sure how you would even design a study to accurately measure the effects. Any sort of cathartic experience would necessarily be self-reported and we all know the accuracy of self-report studies.
  - JAlexoid 5y ago
    One of a few studies I've read followed people and found that people who engage in catharsis do it more often and have lower tolerances to irritants. One of the earlier studies just had people's anger tracked(anger has a very clear physiological response). So no need to have it self reported.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    For the value of an anecdote: in my grieving process, I tried several forms of catharsis: hitting a heavy bag, yelling, running and biking angry. In every case, it made me more angry. I got worse. The anger turned inward. It wasn't until I stopped that approach that I made any progress in my grief. > Any sort of cathartic experience would necessarily be self-reported and we all know the accuracy of self-report studies. That's not true. In the article, they mention observational studies wherein folks who vent are more likely to lash out. That isn't self-reporting.

ascii_pasta 5y ago

There's a saying "the squeeky wheel get's the grease". People usually do what works for them. thats exactly why we still see fist fights, disinformation, yelling, racisim, war, complaining, etc. It does what it was intended to do. Otherwise, people would do something else.

JAlexoid 5y ago
A leaky cauldron gets thrown out, is the counterargument here. If you want to be angrier or as angry - catharsis is great.
- ascii_pasta 5y ago
  Thats why I love these types of sayings! It doesnt always get grease, does it! It depends on the usefulness of the source of the squeek! For me it translates as 'be worth helping'. This even works for your couldron, is it worth fixing?

Shadonototra 5y ago

what a selfish mindset venting produce effects, it make the reader understand other people's feeling without knowing them if makes them learn about people and their frustrations ultimately, it gives them the opportunity to come up with a direct or indirect response to them

amelius 5y ago

> Venting anger is like using gasoline to put out a fire. There could be some truth to it. Since I started venting on HN about how bad ads, drm, social media, and patents are, their prevalence has increased!

JAlexoid 5y ago

Catharsis(aka venting) has had a multiple studies saying that it doesn't work. Stop venting. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1967-02716-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1967-02716-001 - it's even in the abstract.

antisthenes 5y ago
This is your 3rd post in the thread, alleging that catharsis doesn't work. Now, personally, I don't have skin in the game, so I can't tell you whether it works or not. But the fact that you're citing a 1967 psych study done on 9 year old kids tells me you have some kind of agenda for whatever reason. Not only are most psych studies flat out junk, but the 50s and 60s was the time of particularly egregious junk science. Remember, that's the time they still did lobotomies. Besides, the study you cited only limits itself to cathartic aggression, which is clearly not the only case for the experience.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  I can link you to another bunch. Because I took interest on the subject. I've been told to "vent" almost all of my life and only a few years ago I got exposed to this research. I'm citing one of the earlier ones and there's plenty of newer studies. My "allegations" are based in research and not empty words(unlike the accusations in your comment)
  - julianeon 5y ago
    It's pretty incredible how few comments in this thread are saying "huh, this is interesting, I should try this, research backs it up." That's the engineer or HN way, isn't it? (Not being sarcastic, I include myself in this). When data comes along which disproves or at least weakens a previously held position, adjust your priors and try it out. Note: you can say "not until it's proven" but I can cite plenty of less weakly supported positions than "catharsis doesn't work" that have been enthusiastically taken up here. Consider trusting the data, at least a little bit, especially if you have a strongly emotional, but not well supported, response. This is the way (of the engineer).

rectang 5y ago

Thought experiment: two groups of people, a control group and one told "stop venting". 1. Which group achieves more success in solving their underlying problem? 2. Which group exhibits higher levels of psychological satisfaction?

oversocialized 5y ago

byoffor88 5y ago

birdmanjeremy 5y ago

"Stop Venting" doesn't just "work" either. Processing your emotions and letting go of them does. David Hawkins' book, aptly named 'Letting Go,' covers this in detail.

vernie 5y ago

Whoops accidentally submitted to HN instead of LinkedIn.

saghm 5y ago

> The idea of venting can be traced as far back as Aristotle, but Freud is the one who really popularized the notion of catharsis. Most of what we assume about the need to “let it out” comes from his assertions about the danger of unexpressed feelings. In the “hydraulic model,” frustration and anger build up inside you and, unless periodically released in small bursts, cause a massive explosion. Starting in the 1960s, this theory was debunked by so many lab experiments that researcher Carol Tavris concluded in 1988, “It is time to put a bullet, once and for all, through the heart of the catharsis hypothesis.” I think there is some truth to the original theory, but not all "venting" is equal. I definitely have at times experienced growing resentment towards people in my life due to not fully confronting the feelings I had about my interactions with them, but in general I don't think that angry outbursts are a healthy way to deal with this. In an ideal relationship (general term, not necessarily "romantic relationship"), I think honest but empathetic and non-judgmental conversations between the parties is often going to be the only way to truly alleviate those feelings; being able to tell someone why you were hurt by their actions without judging them and then being able to hear the same without reacting defensively is much more effective than complaining to a third party, but it requires a level of trust and understanding that is usually not going to be present for anything but close family members or long time friends. Given that, I think there is value in talking through the issues with a neutral third party, but it can be hard to avoid falling into spiral of anger and resentment, which I think is why seeing a therapist or psychologist is such a common treatment. I don't think that being able to neutrally help someone deal with their feelings of anger or resentment is some kind of superpower or anything, but like any skill, there are some methods that are more effective and some that are less effective, so having some sort of training on the matter generally is helpful. Most importantly though, they still need to build that same level of trust and understanding with the patient, which I think is the most common reason that therapy isn't able to help some people; if you're not open to the idea of learning to trust and get helped in therapy, it's going to be hard to actually resolve anything.

skeeter2020 5y ago

Venting totally CAN work in customer support situations. You let someone pour out confusing and undirected anger/fear/frustration and then you get to work solving the underlying problem or pain point.

artursapek 5y ago

To stop venting would mean to stop going to therapy, lol

kstenerud 5y ago

I think they've missed the point. Venting isn't for catharsis; It's for seeking validation. When you vent TO someone and they lend a sympathetic ear, it's a huge help. Venting is a social bonding ritual. You generally don't get this online because most of the audience is NOT sympathetic, so you'll get criticism after criticism, making things even worse.

nonrandomstring 5y ago
Yes it's a communicative act. Communication can be bounced off others for social validation as you say, but can also be to oneself. You'd still vent, if alone on a desert island, maybe to The Gods. Ever hear yourself saying out loud, usually with expletives, something that you would "never say"? Listen to that voice! That's communication of unconscious but frustrated thoughts. Sometimes it has to come out verbally because ones inner dialogue isn't strong enough due to social or superego suppression. After you said it to yourself you feel better. We are not the singular identities simpler minds suppose us.
mikepurvis 5y ago
There are lots of sympathetic audiences online too— see relationship or parenting vents on tiktok, where the comments are often just wall-to-wall supportive, with crown emojis, slogans like "SLAYYYY!" etc. Twitch "just chatting" streams can be like this sometimes too. But I do wonder how much of it actually lands for the recipient. As an influencer putting out a carefully curated image of yourself, how meaningful is it to be boosted by a bunch of mostly-anonymous strangers? Wouldn't it just feed into a kind of dissociative thing where you recognize that they're praising and lifting up a mask and have no idea about the particulars of the real person's struggles? I don't know.
munificent 5y ago
100% agree. Anger usually stems from a boundary being violated. It's our instinctive evolved response for pushing back against someone who has encroached on us. When we "vent" to a peer, it is relieving because it transfers that personal boundary to a group boundary. We feel "OK, my peer will now back me up the next time this happens." Venting is like yelling for reinforcements when you see someone storming your corner of the castle wall.

blhack 5y ago

One of the most stressful projects I ever worked on had a really great way of dealing with the stress (a policy that I created). Every meeting, at the beginning of the meeting, everybody was required to complain for 5 minutes. Just talk about all the stupid decisions that got us to this point, how unreasonable the timeline was, any staffing issues you were having, any parts you needed, etc. 5 minutes. You are required to complain. It helped a LOT, and almost a decade later when I interact with that team, we still all look back glowingly on that practice as something good. It was a tense project, and that "you have to complain for 5 minutes" completely broke all of the tension, and let us all work together effectively. If we hadn't implemented that policy, we might not have finished the project on time.

dudul 5y ago
How did you make sure that no one would complain that "Bob was an idiot who kept breaking the build", or "Alice never does her code reviews and blocks everyone"?
- J5892 5y ago
  Best approach: Don't hire people like that. Good approach: Specify that complaints be non-specific to a person on the team.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    > Specify that complaints be non-specific to a person on the team. Very often, it is the case that a specific person /is/ the problem.
    - J5892 5y ago
      Well yeah, but just don't call them out. If you identify a problem, the person responsible will (usually) know you're talking about them, and may even appreciate that you're not calling them out in front of the team. If necessary, you can always reach out to them one-on-one afterwards.

Metacelsus 5y ago

From the title I thought this would be about ventilation and COVID.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago

This is true, I suspect. Except if you make it funny. Funny venting -- exasperated joking -- is an enormously effective stress reduction tactic. The key point really I guess is that you have to have gone looking for the laugh before you let it out; that is likely the therapeutic value. "HELLO POLLLLLLYYYYY!"

keerthiko 5y ago

A proper venting process, like a heatsink or coolant, needs a mechanism to absorb the unwanted energy efficiently, and then disperse it. Asking folks to express anger or spend energy without it specifically drawing from the negative emotions within is like pouring coolant fluid from a bottle over your CPU box. I think carefully channelled energy, however, can really help calm. I don't necessarily think it's catharsis really, as it would tend closer to meditation. Practising a martial art, trying to focus on something creative, going on a long run, playing a mentally demanding game (chess, go, starcraft) — with the right mindset, these allow you to harness your negative feelings into an activity that exists in its own sandbox, and then get processed in a way that only makes sense inside that sandbox. It's important that your activity is one where you have practised not getting further enraged (no 'tilting', as we say in video games) when you fail/perform badly inside your sandbox. When you leave the sandbox, you find a tiny bit more peace with whatever enraged you.

motohagiography 5y ago

Can't help but think the term "toxic," discredits the whole thing as a vehicle for something else. Aggression is natural and universal, but the tools for expressing and self-regulating it are not. One description of it that resonated personally for me was Robert Sapolsky's "depression is aggression turned inward," and while the phrase doesn't do the whole idea justice, it's more useful than hollow and seductive cliches like toxicity. Arguably, aggression is necessarily an artifact of ideas of self and how we relate to others, and "venting" aggression safely lets you accept it (and yourself) in its totality and gives you a sense of how to manage it, instead of suppressing it and fearing that it will be exposed, only to have it come out in perverse other ways anyway. What bothers me about a lot of psychology is it seems mainly like a critical theory for deconstructing mental suffering as a means to relieve it theraputically - which is noble and useful, but it has been adopted as a scheme for moralizing coarse political interests. Some years ago I turned a lot of my aggression outward and into disagreeableness, replacing a few intense relationships that enabled turning it inward with many new ones that did not, and it has made me more likeable, honest, trustworthy, reliable, fairer, and more sincerely compassionate, and as a result I have never been more content. It sets a healthy boundary where your natural aggression doesn't get triggered nearly as often, and you can manage it in other ways. Yes, some people will think you are an asshole, but the little bit of friction and occasional loss of a connection does not compare to relief and peace of just not caring what they think, and being free to engage people for only the enjoyment of it instead of some absurd sense of obligation. Or not.

eric-hu 5y ago
Did you apply this concept from a book or other set of writings? I’m just curious about this process and would like to learn more.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
bduerst 5y ago
Maybe this is wrong, but it sounds like you were in toxic relationships, ones which you were able to escape by asserting your boundaries. Asserting yourself is a little different than being hostile and/or violent, which is what aggression is usually considered. In any case and semantics aside, congrats on removing relationships that were pushing you inwards and making you unhappy. Like the article mentions, brain pathways and behavior are like hiking paths, it's incredibly difficult to forge new ones and continually use them until it's normal.

kashyapc 5y ago

From Robert Sapolsky's Behave, I learnt about the notion of "displacement aggression". We know what it is intuitively, but in short: depressingly enough, the reason stress encourages aggression is that it reduces stress. And we don't yet know the underlying biology of it. - - - Excuse the wall of text, but it's entirely worth reading Sapolsky's description of this: [quote] Shock a rat and its glucocorticoid levels [a key stress-signaller] and blood pressure rise; with enough shocks, it’s at risk for a “stress” ulcer. Various things can buffer the rat during shocks—running on a running wheel, eating, gnawing on wood in frustration. But a particularly effective buffer is for the rat to bite another rat. Stress-induced (aka frustration-induced) displacement aggression is ubiquitous in various species. Among baboons, for example, nearly half of aggression is this type—a high-ranking male loses a fight and chases a subadult male, who promptly bites a female, who then lunges at an infant. My research shows that within the same dominance rank, the more a baboon tends to displace aggression after losing a fight, the lower his glucocorticoid levels. Humans excel at stress-induced displacement aggression—consider how economic downturns increase rates of spousal and child abuse. Or consider a study of family violence and pro football. If the local team unexpectedly loses, spousal/partner violence by men increases 10 percent soon afterward (with no increase when the team won or was expected to lose). [...] Little is known concerning the neurobiology of displacement aggression blunting the stress response. I’d guess that lashing out activates dopaminergic reward pathways, a surefire way to inhibit CRH release [a hormone involved in the stress response]. Far too often, giving an ulcer helps avoid getting one. [/quote]

klenwell 5y ago
A couple people have mentioned Sapolsky and he came to my mind also. Here's a comment I made a while back along the same lines on an article about why swearing (as a form of venting) does work (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12229422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12229422). Sapolsky again on rats and baboons (from Why Zebra’s Don’t Get Ulcers): A variant of Weiss's experiment uncovers a special feature of the outlet-for-frustration reaction. This time, when the rat gets the identical series of electric shocks and is upset, it can run across the cage, sit next to another rat and... bite the hell out of it. Stress-induced displacement of aggression: the practice works wonders at minimizing the stressfulness of a stressor. It's a real primate specialty as well. A male baboon loses a fight. Frustrated, he spins around and attacks a subordinate male who was minding his own business. An extremely high percentage of primate aggression represent frustration displaced onto innocent bystanders. I recently left a job and boss where this dynamic was very much in play (more blaming than biting but obvious displacement aggression all the same). My conclusion: swearing (venting) might be seen as a more civilized form of displacing stress-induced aggression.

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lcuff 5y ago

Doing good science around this kind of stuff is extremely difficult ... My personal experience with Psychodrama and Gestalt in the late '70s and early '80s was that for someone like myself who was very much 'in my head', it was an opportunity to acknowledge my own repressed anger. But in retrospect, it was/is also behavior rehearsal for bad behavior in the rest of my life. More effective was modern Somatic Experience techniques where the impulse to respond in anger is explored with a lot of inner attention and slow-motion movements of pushing away and/or striking back. I would call it more grounded and more present. There is dissociation that occurred for me with so-called cathartic anger. The variation in 'venting' adds to the complexity of the conversation. Physical venting vs naming sources of anger/frustration. Based on my personal experience, physical venting is far less effective than verbal venting, and of course verbal venting is massively variable. Naming the exact source of frustration strikes me as more likely to be usefully defusing than just shouting that someone is an f-ing a*hole. I can imagine the inclusion of humor, for example, would have a huge impact.

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago

This seems like a great case of a bad headline derailing discussion. The first study quoted uses hitting a punching bag as an example of venting. I’d contrast that against what I think of as venting: talking about what’s bothering you without looking for the discussion to solve anything other than providing space to say what you’re feeling. When they say venting doesn’t work, they’re referring to a specific kind of venting. > In more general terms, embracing our feelings isn’t the same as expressing them, and not all forms of expression are created equal. Realizing “I’m angry” (always OK) is a different beast from telling someone “I’m angry” (sometimes OK), and it’s even further from berating a loved one for causing your anger (not OK). It’s a good article with a nuanced point, and all the discussion reacting to the shitty headline is a shame.

nineplay 5y ago

I've found the problem with venting can be that it cements an idea in your head. This is particularly true with people. If I find myself venting that <X> doesn't know what the heck they're doing, I've internally solidified that belief. If <X> improves, if I'm on another project with <X> where they clearly have a lot of knowledge, then it can still be too late. I've verbalized to myself ( and worse, my partner ) that X is incompetent and I'm not going to easily let that go. I think it's true with other things. <Y> is a terrible idea, <Z>'s code base is a mess. If I let it role over me, notice things without forcing an opinion, I'm more likely to realize I've judged to soon.

mikepurvis 5y ago
This is an interesting one particularly when it comes to listening well in intimate relationships— the wisdom is that men are generally worse listeners and have a tendency to want fix things rather than just being present with their partner to understand how they are feeling and where they are at. And that learning to do this and learning to ask for it, are important pieces of long term relationship success. All of which makes sense, but I do think some of the times when I've struggled with this was maybe tied into what your describing: a concern that while my partner's feelings of hurt or whatever were total valid, I found it hard to separate validating just the feelings while not also validating what I felt were unfair judgments/characterizations about the people or situations involved, and was nervous that letting those judgments go by unaddressed was indeed going to cement them as a future factual reference point.
caddemon 5y ago
I agree with this to some extent, but I think when I get to the point of externally venting I've already pretty strongly internalized the thought. My larger concern with venting is that it seems to encourage bad next step coping strategies for me. I vent that "X is terrible so it's hard for me to get anything done" and oftentimes this gets validated in a way that encourages the "not getting anything done" part, which isn't helpful even when X actually is terrible. There's a fine line between recognizing that you're in a difficult situation and giving yourself an excuse to fail, at least for me. Like a lot of things, venting is probably good in moderation, as long as you are able to keep it in moderation. The most recent situation I was in I had trouble telling how much of the problem was on me, and then by venting to some coworkers I pretty quickly discovered that nearly everyone felt the same way about X. This was comforting at first, but the more we vented the more I felt justified in blowing off work. I didn't even replace that time with anything personally productive unfortunately. I've regrouped now and am working on getting out of the project the right way, but I wish I handled it better in the first place.

cosmiccatnap 5y ago

kazinator 5y ago

> As one researcher put it, “Venting anger is like using gasoline to put out a fire.” The analogy holds only if the problem is one that is in some way exacerbated (i.e. fueled by) anger (even if only by growing worse due to appropriate action not being taken due to focus on anger). If anger is not relevant to the problem, then no. For instance, if you're angry that 2 + 2 isn't 5, venting will not make that issue escalate; 2 + 2 will not get farther away from 5 just to spite you for venting.

samatman 5y ago

Unpopular opinion, I expect, but until, and unless, there is a reckoning with the replication crisis in psychology, Hacker News should treat this kind of article the same way they would treat one which takes homeopathy seriously. I've flagged it as irrelevant and suggest you do so also.

WaitWaitWha 5y ago

People do not vent anger. People vent frustration. Anger is usually a follow-up because the person does not have a motion forward or solution to the frustrating element. In my experience people vent their frustration because they are stuck in their thinking and instinctively want to share it with others in hope the trusted person can give a way out, or comfort them.

lanstin 5y ago

Work for what? People vent for pleasure, not as part of a plan. Clearly a more rational response to anger is to let it dissipate without losing your cool, then let your best self decide what to do. But sometimes sharing a beer with a friend and going over the sins of those rat bastards that are fucking everything up is by God really fun. Like many pleasures, it is best in moderation. And should probably be done once you aren't so mad that you disturb your equanimity.

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trynewideas 5y ago

There is likely no good medium- or long-term benefit to venting, especially when it's defined as physical violence directed at objects or verbal aggression directed at people. That's pretty clear. But one of the best pieces of advice my therapist gave me was that under extreme stress, sometimes the only path to making it to the next minute intact is to do something where the long-term benefit isn't clear, or even negative. In those moments, the best we can do is focus on preventing harm to others and minimizing harm to ourselves. (This isn't just about venting, but other stress and trauma reactions.) If a situation is so terrible that there's a chance of having a more brutal breakdown (or in my case, a suicide attempt) if we don't throw a plastic cup at a wall, or scream out the pain, or otherwise do something stupid for that short burst of peace with a relatively high cost, then we won't make it to a point where we can reflect on how we got there, and how to actually get to a better place in the medium- or long-term. Cycles of venting are bad, because constantly venting means constantly being under stress, which means it's harder and harder to step away from it to recognize the sources of the stress and break that cycle. But as a response to a peak in stress, or a sudden trauma, it's a tool - not the best tool, not even a good tool, but if it's the _only_ tool I can reach in time, the advice I got (for myself, which I am not a therapist, and which may not be relevant to you) was to not second-guess whether to use it.

blamestross 5y ago
A more general version of this: You, being vaguely competent, are where you are because it is a local optima. Always, to progress to a better state, you are going to take at least some steps down a hill to get there. Sometimes a lot of them. We end up in situations bc the paths past/out of them are not obvious or easy. Don't let an obsession for every step being 'improvement' prevent you from taking the messy up and down path to get somewhere better.

randomsilence 5y ago

>The idea of venting can be traced as far back as Aristotle, but Freud is the one who really popularized the notion of catharsis. Most of what we assume about the need to “let it out” comes from his assertions about the danger of unexpressed feelings. When it comes to 'let it out', it should be traced back even further to the Iliad. At least according to this [1] video by Lindybeige, the Iliad is all about forgiving, after having exhausted every other option, aka after letting it all out. Having said that, the article seems to make a negation error. The opposite of not expressing feelings is not expressing all feelings but expressing some feelings. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofPdMbXzUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofPdMbXzUQ The Iliad - what is it really about?

notfbi 5y ago

I've noticed situations on the job where I've had little issues with management on my own, but experienced going out with drinks/coffees with gossipy venting colleagues and me internalizing their anger. This prima-facie seemed like the primary reason they did it. If venting is instead a coalitions/tribal consensus building exercise, the psychologists might need to wait until after the revolution to retest the subject's well-being.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

From my purely anecdotal experience with mentoring younger people, I've seen two main categories of venting: 1) Venting about frustrations by talking them through with someone who will listen. This forces people to put their frustrations into words and elucidate the narrative as they put it into words. This can not only help people identify their feelings and work through them, but it also forces people to decide what a mature response would be. Once you start venting to someone you know, especially someone you respect, you have an incentive to present a mature interpretation and approach to the situation. This can help immensely. 2) The other group tends to want to avoid the mature response part, and instead wants to seek sympathy and confirmation for their frustrations. They deliberately avoid discussing these issues with respected peers or mentors because they know their response is unhealthy and not a good look. They embrace online forums like Reddit and Twitter where they're free to give one-sided stories without fear of their peers calling them out for exaggerating or stretching the details. This type of venting doesn't solve anything because they don't really want solutions in the first place. There's something rewarding or perhaps freeing about hunkering down in the victim role and being showered with sympathy from random internet strangers. I haven't seen any reason to believe the first type of venting (discussing with respected peers, seeking feedback and solutions in the process) is anything but helpful. However, the latter type of venting (online venting to collect sympathy) does seem to be quite damaging from my limited experience. There's something dangerous about going online to bond with others and seek personal affirmation in a way that's fueled by venting frustrations and victimizations. Once inside of those circles, there's an incentive to continue bringing more frustrations and more victimizations to the table to keep the bonding and community contact flowing. The story in the article about going to a park to scream together raises my red flags as such a situation: It becomes an in-group thing where you need to adopt an outward appearance of being very frustrated to fit in with the other people in the group. Not a good incentive for improving the situation.

PaulHoule 5y ago
Is this http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/why-estranged-parents-forums.html http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/why-estrange... and example of type (2)?

tgv 5y ago

> Neuroscience—specifically, neural plasticity—explains why venting reinforces negative emotions. You can think of our brain circuitry like hiking trails. The ones that get a lot of traffic get smoother and wider, with brush stomped down and pushed back. That is so bad. It assumes that the brain uses one pathway for (different forms of) aggression and one neural mechanism for adapting behavior. It also assumes that the effect is cumulative. None of these are true.

maerF0x0 5y ago

This article talks about "catharsis" catharsis and processing are key to getting past something, but it also depends on if sufficient (time|mental processing) have past to allow one to not become distraught over the situation. see: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/798927.Writing_to_Heal https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/798927.Writing_to_Heal

meowzero 5y ago

Not sure of the validity of the article. But in my experience, my friends and colleagues who vent a lot seem to vent all the time. It seem like their venting is fueling whatever their annoyances is at that moment. I think it's more about regulating your emotions in a calm, rational way. Venting can get emotional and could add fuel to the fire. But if you can achieve talking about the problem in a more calm, empathetic, rational way, it might work better. Of course, easier said than done.

cannonpalms 5y ago

The conclusion here presupposes that other benefits such as increased clarity of the situation and one's own feelings are not present, but in that context vacuum? Sure, I agree.

aseerdbnarng 5y ago

This naturally human response thats existed for longer than commerce needs to be suppressed because it doesn’t further your career. Yup. Makes sense to me.

slowhadoken 5y ago

serenity now!

MrYellowP 5y ago

Venting does work, but there's differences in how you do it. Mindlessly ranting about bullshit doesn't help. Mindfulness is the key. Feelings want to get out. Keeping them inside doesn't do any good.

dane-pgp 5y ago

You just need to make sure no one is around when you vent, otherwise you look really sus.

cryptica 5y ago

For me, venting is absolutely essential. It's my greatest source of motivation. Once I can clearly identify and describe flaws which I see in the system which are holding me back, I can start to look for alternative paths... At the same time, venting helps to raise awareness of systemic flaws; it increases the probability that the flaws will be fixed at some point in the future. So if I vent about some issue today, there is a chance that it will be resolved in maybe 20 years from now... So if I managed to keep working for 20 years straight, I will be among the first in line to benefit from the system being fixed because I'd have been waiting for that fix for so long and keeping tabs on it. For example, I've been venting my frustrations about the fiat monetary system for years while being involved in crypto. I'm just building software while at the same time waiting for the monetary system to get fixed so that my work has a chance of becoming relevant. I'm also benefiting from mainstream crypto projects (not my own) acting as an 'alternative path' since they benefit from the flaws in the monetary system due to the wealth concentrating forces of centralized money-printing. Unfortunately, my own projects cannot benefit from the current fiat system because me and my community are socially too far from the money printers... Though obviously, the Bitcoin network is very close to the sources of freshly printed fiat...

nine_zeros 5y ago

I have vented - about management and to management - often to give a signal that I am frustrated (managers can't read between the lines, they are humans) and to get management to realize that they are doing a bad job. Venting is a very important social tool to account for mediocrity or lackadaisical attitude of others. Venting is not useful if you yourself can do something about it.

TheRealNGenius 5y ago

I hate it when oft times, a completely unrelated picture is inserted into a blog post with seemingly no relation to the actual content of said post.

snvzz 5y ago

As it turns out, Stoicism was the way all along.

FpUser 5y ago

I vent by dancing and swearing in the basement with the music blasting. No harm done and I feel better in the end ;)

danielovichdk 5y ago

This piece is all over the place. And i don't give the studies any value at all. Emotions cannot be measured as such, it's far more complex than that. The underlying emotions caused by so-called venting is the thing which is interesting. Not the venting. It's a side effect of the real emotions underneath. How you express your feelings towards yourself and others is what this is basically about. Anger is most often a layer around grief or sorrow, so the anger-feeling is no more than a hint to that something else is going on deeper inside you[0]. [0] https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/peeling-the-onion-uncovering-our-wounds-in-therapy/ https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/peeling-the-onion-uncoverin...

dharmit 5y ago

This kinda makes sense. I belong to the group of people that either vents or keeps ruminating in the head, while my wife is the opposite. I have suffered from occasional bouts of high blood pressure, while my wife doesn't face any such issues.

omgmajk 5y ago

I find that when and if I vent something I usually always feel anxious about it afterwards. Like I have said something I shouldn't have.

everdrive 5y ago

I think Freudian psychological ideas still have a lot of hold on people, even though in general his theories are generally not taken seriously these days. Under Freud, your emotions are almost like physical substances: you can have “too much” of them, and need to release them. “Releasing” your anger literally removes it from your body in Freudian psychology. I believe this (incorrectly) makes a lot of intuitive sense to people, as it is difficult to maintain a state of full-fledged rage and yelling. ie, you will calm down and the emotion will pass. This is more akin to a biological state: you cannot maintain any feeling indefinitely. But, I do not believe that this means that someone is releasing the emotion in the Freudian sense of the word. In practice, if you “release” your anger in this way often you are simply practicing feeling angry. In other words, you are training your mind to focus on this emotional state, and are therefore most likely increasing the amount of anger you have. You cannot “vent” all this anger because it is not a discrete substance that you can run out of. Instead, you’re behaviorally training yourself to experience anger more often: the opposite what was intended. To the extent that people can “keep emotions bottled up inside,” I believe this simply means just not addressing a point of contention which makes you angry. The point is not to “release” the anger, but to address this issue which is causing the anger. If you’re not addressing it (either by preventing it or coming to peace with it) then you will keep experiencing the point of contention. In that narrow and non-Freudian sense, you are keeping your anger “bottled up.” But, you cannot just “release” your anger: you must address it. Really, there is no releasing anger; there is merely expressing it.