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Isn’t that exactly the kind of the arrogance of the West pushing the boundaries as the East has argued is its red line ?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lmm 5y ago
Well not posting troops in Ukraine doesn't seem to have stopped Ukraine getting invaded does it? So it seems that was empty rhetoric.
- alephnan 5y ago
  The red line was the expansion of the West. Putting troops in Ukraine is one way of satisfying that. The encroachment of NATO was another. Whether that is true or not, it would have given more weight to Russia/Putin’s argument than stuff about Nazis.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    The thing is defence spending in Europe has plummeted since the fall of the Soviet Union. The threat from the West was never a reasonable justification for invading Ukraine.
  - timeon 5y ago
    > red line Only relevant red line is border of sovereign nation. No NATO member was forced to join - they actually asked to join in order to prevent invasion like the one which is in Ukraine now. > expansion of the West Isn't is cynical to call it expansion of the West while no-one except Russia expanded beyond borders of Russia? It is just expansion of Russia.
    - alephnan 5y ago
      > Isn't is cynical to call it expansion of the West while no-one except Russia expanded beyond borders of Russia? It is just expansion of Russia. Nope, no one is denying Russia's expansion, nor China or the next superpower. The only hypocrisy would be recognizing Russia's expansion and not the West. The conservative argument is that the world should be kept as is, and whoever makes the first move is to blame for breaking that balance. Putin thinks the West did it first, before this Ukrainian invasion. The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time
      - lmm 5y ago
        What "expansion of the west"? Estonia et al joined NATO of their own accord, and if sovereignty means anything then they had the right to. (You could certainly make a case about Iraq or Afghanistan, where the west did install a new government by force, but I don't think Russia has been talking about those) > The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time Hardly the first. What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? This isn't a story of mutual escalation, it's Russia taking as much as it can get away with.
        vogre 5y ago
        > What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs, armed these countries with heavy weapons, encouraged them to fight Russia and promised to support this fight, then leave and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe. It didn't started in 2022 or 2014, it escalated for the last 30 years.
        xdennis 5y ago
        > Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs The Revolution of Dignity was about removing the Russian puppet. It was let by the people, who opposed orc control. > armed these countries with heavy weapons Friends help each other like that. > encouraged them to fight Russia As every sovereign nation should on their land. > and promised to support this fight Source. > then leave What NATO soldiers were there to leave? > and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe. Disgusting point of view. Russians attacked! What were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Surrender to people who want them killed?
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    Right up until they went mental, Russia was pretty damn close to the west. Especially with Putin gone and a more moderate leader.
lordnacho 5y ago
Yes but the logic you hear in the news now is that doing something like a no fly zone would be provoking ww3 because then Russians and Americans would be fighting directly. So then if troops had been put there first it would be Putin starting it, and even he might not be crazy enough to do that. By wavering the west has gotten into a position where Ukraine is being destroyed.
- alephnan 5y ago
  > By wavering the west has gotten into a position where Ukraine is being destroyed. And this I agree. So now maybe the United States will stop wavering on Taiwan.
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    Yes, the same logic should apply. Whoever puts troops there first stops the other side from doing it, under threat from ww3 and nuclear war.
    - alephnan 5y ago
      > Whoever puts troops there first stops the other side from doing it, The problem is that is equivalent to setting up a flag. The East views America as an imperialist, and this would be provocation of imperialist expansion.
      - lordnacho 5y ago
        That's two ways, isn't it? But it still makes sense of the premise is correct that a nuke state cannot fight with another.
imnotlost 5y ago
NATO membership is entirely voluntary. As such, there haven't been any "pushing of boundaries" unless you presume Russia gets to decide what independent nations like Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Sweden, Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, etc. may or may not do.
- alephnan 5y ago
  > NATO membership is entirely voluntary. Yes and Russia doesn't deny that either. The request was for NATO to stop allowing countries like Ukraine to volunteer. Is that unfair ? Yes, it is a bully move. But that was the bully's request, and the West's stance is, effectively, we don't negotiate with terrorists. It's the attitude of: whatever, we do whatever we want. That's also fair, but don't be surprised why Russia proceeded, because they can have the same sentiment: whatever, we do whatever we want. The magnitude of recklessness is outsized, but the direction is the same.
  - imnotlost 5y ago
    You're not suggesting NATO saying "sure let's talk about membership" and Russia INVADING a country is the same but different "magnitude"? It's up to Ukraine if they want to pursue NATO membership or any other agreement with any country or organization. Russia has no say. It's not a negotiation between NATO and Russia. Russia isn't at the table. They can pine for old USSR glory all they want but nobody else wants that. And the way Putin's been killing journalists and dissidents (in the UK no less), raiding the treasury, annexing Crimea, and other nonsense, I don't see them being invited to many negotiations in the future.
    - vogre 5y ago
      > Russia has no say. It's not a negotiation between NATO and Russia. Russia isn't at the table Well that attitude brought us to that point. Russia thinks that it should be at the table and it can prove it. > And the way Putin's been killing journalists and dissidents (in the UK no less), raiding the treasury, annexing Crimea, and other nonsense, I don't see them being invited to many negotiations in the future. Turkey is NATO member, do you know anything about Erdogan deeds? Or maybe that story when Saudi Prince DISMEMBERED that journalist in embassy and everyone were okay with it?
timeon 5y ago
There are people in Eastern Europe who call [1] the arrogance statement like yours. [1]: https://www-capital-bg.translate.goog/politika_i_ikonomika/voinata-v-ukraina/2022/03/06/4320343_problemut_na_amerikanskoto_govorene_za_iztochna_evropa/?_x_tr_sl=bg&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-capital-bg.translate.goog/politika_i_ikonomika/v...
- alephnan 5y ago
  Could you give context on whether this is an objective source, reflects the sentiment of the Eastern European people, or propaganda?
  - sofixa 5y ago
    It's one of the most serious Bulgarian publications ( Financial Times level, somewhat focused on business etc. ( as the name, Capital, implies)), and it reflects the sentiment of many ( probably most) Eastern European people.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

lmm 5y ago

Well not posting troops in Ukraine doesn't seem to have stopped Ukraine getting invaded does it? So it seems that was empty rhetoric.

alephnan 5y ago
The red line was the expansion of the West. Putting troops in Ukraine is one way of satisfying that. The encroachment of NATO was another. Whether that is true or not, it would have given more weight to Russia/Putin’s argument than stuff about Nazis.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  The thing is defence spending in Europe has plummeted since the fall of the Soviet Union. The threat from the West was never a reasonable justification for invading Ukraine.
- timeon 5y ago
  > red line Only relevant red line is border of sovereign nation. No NATO member was forced to join - they actually asked to join in order to prevent invasion like the one which is in Ukraine now. > expansion of the West Isn't is cynical to call it expansion of the West while no-one except Russia expanded beyond borders of Russia? It is just expansion of Russia.
  - alephnan 5y ago
    > Isn't is cynical to call it expansion of the West while no-one except Russia expanded beyond borders of Russia? It is just expansion of Russia. Nope, no one is denying Russia's expansion, nor China or the next superpower. The only hypocrisy would be recognizing Russia's expansion and not the West. The conservative argument is that the world should be kept as is, and whoever makes the first move is to blame for breaking that balance. Putin thinks the West did it first, before this Ukrainian invasion. The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time
    - lmm 5y ago
      What "expansion of the west"? Estonia et al joined NATO of their own accord, and if sovereignty means anything then they had the right to. (You could certainly make a case about Iraq or Afghanistan, where the west did install a new government by force, but I don't think Russia has been talking about those) > The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time Hardly the first. What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? This isn't a story of mutual escalation, it's Russia taking as much as it can get away with.
      - vogre 5y ago
        > What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs, armed these countries with heavy weapons, encouraged them to fight Russia and promised to support this fight, then leave and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe. It didn't started in 2022 or 2014, it escalated for the last 30 years.
        xdennis 5y ago
        > Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs The Revolution of Dignity was about removing the Russian puppet. It was let by the people, who opposed orc control. > armed these countries with heavy weapons Friends help each other like that. > encouraged them to fight Russia As every sovereign nation should on their land. > and promised to support this fight Source. > then leave What NATO soldiers were there to leave? > and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe. Disgusting point of view. Russians attacked! What were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Surrender to people who want them killed?
- Aeolun 5y ago
  Right up until they went mental, Russia was pretty damn close to the west. Especially with Putin gone and a more moderate leader.

lordnacho 5y ago

Yes but the logic you hear in the news now is that doing something like a no fly zone would be provoking ww3 because then Russians and Americans would be fighting directly. So then if troops had been put there first it would be Putin starting it, and even he might not be crazy enough to do that. By wavering the west has gotten into a position where Ukraine is being destroyed.

alephnan 5y ago
> By wavering the west has gotten into a position where Ukraine is being destroyed. And this I agree. So now maybe the United States will stop wavering on Taiwan.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  Yes, the same logic should apply. Whoever puts troops there first stops the other side from doing it, under threat from ww3 and nuclear war.
  - alephnan 5y ago
    > Whoever puts troops there first stops the other side from doing it, The problem is that is equivalent to setting up a flag. The East views America as an imperialist, and this would be provocation of imperialist expansion.
    - lordnacho 5y ago
      That's two ways, isn't it? But it still makes sense of the premise is correct that a nuke state cannot fight with another.

imnotlost 5y ago

NATO membership is entirely voluntary. As such, there haven't been any "pushing of boundaries" unless you presume Russia gets to decide what independent nations like Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Sweden, Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, etc. may or may not do.

alephnan 5y ago
> NATO membership is entirely voluntary. Yes and Russia doesn't deny that either. The request was for NATO to stop allowing countries like Ukraine to volunteer. Is that unfair ? Yes, it is a bully move. But that was the bully's request, and the West's stance is, effectively, we don't negotiate with terrorists. It's the attitude of: whatever, we do whatever we want. That's also fair, but don't be surprised why Russia proceeded, because they can have the same sentiment: whatever, we do whatever we want. The magnitude of recklessness is outsized, but the direction is the same.
- imnotlost 5y ago
  You're not suggesting NATO saying "sure let's talk about membership" and Russia INVADING a country is the same but different "magnitude"? It's up to Ukraine if they want to pursue NATO membership or any other agreement with any country or organization. Russia has no say. It's not a negotiation between NATO and Russia. Russia isn't at the table. They can pine for old USSR glory all they want but nobody else wants that. And the way Putin's been killing journalists and dissidents (in the UK no less), raiding the treasury, annexing Crimea, and other nonsense, I don't see them being invited to many negotiations in the future.
  - vogre 5y ago
    > Russia has no say. It's not a negotiation between NATO and Russia. Russia isn't at the table Well that attitude brought us to that point. Russia thinks that it should be at the table and it can prove it. > And the way Putin's been killing journalists and dissidents (in the UK no less), raiding the treasury, annexing Crimea, and other nonsense, I don't see them being invited to many negotiations in the future. Turkey is NATO member, do you know anything about Erdogan deeds? Or maybe that story when Saudi Prince DISMEMBERED that journalist in embassy and everyone were okay with it?

timeon 5y ago

There are people in Eastern Europe who call [1] the arrogance statement like yours. [1]: https://www-capital-bg.translate.goog/politika_i_ikonomika/voinata-v-ukraina/2022/03/06/4320343_problemut_na_amerikanskoto_govorene_za_iztochna_evropa/?_x_tr_sl=bg&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-capital-bg.translate.goog/politika_i_ikonomika/v...

alephnan 5y ago
Could you give context on whether this is an objective source, reflects the sentiment of the Eastern European people, or propaganda?
- sofixa 5y ago
  It's one of the most serious Bulgarian publications ( Financial Times level, somewhat focused on business etc. ( as the name, Capital, implies)), and it reflects the sentiment of many ( probably most) Eastern European people.