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It doesn't surprise me if they believe that considering the ridiculous stream of fantasy being spewed out of Russian leader and media.

by sidibe 5y ago

pasquinelli 5y ago
- short_sells_poo 5y ago
  This whataboutism has to stop. One bad thing doesn't excuse another. Would you suggest that it's OK to use nuclear weapons because the US used two of them in WW2? I hope not. The invasion of Iraq was based on lies and this is terrible. The invasion of Ukraine is based on lies and it is also terrible.
  - mkmk2 5y ago
    Didn't read it as whataboutism. Was more a call to consider the "ridiculous stream of fantasy being spewed out of <country> leader and media" is rhetoric which is almost always applicable somewhere. The spewing's given some credit elsewhere, just not here because they've been pretty cleanly labelled as the enemy. Also maybe because it's batshit, but the people who are unsure of that will have a harder time having a discussion about it because so many people are jumping to emotional or canned responses.
- keymone 5y ago
  Russian ship, go fuck yourself. Russian bot, convert yourself into a sunflower.
- pqwEfkvjs 5y ago
  How does that justify Russian actions right now?
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  Iraq was a terrorist state full of abuses Russia is a terrorist state full of abuses invading a peaceful democratic country. This is incomparable.
  - Amezarak 5y ago
    "Democratic" is used as a thought-terminating cliche. Just a few years ago Ukraine had an insurrection because of their election results and overturned the election to install a new leader. It's a corrupt kleptocratic state very similar to Russia, it's just more of the money comes from American interests than in Russia, and that upsets the Russian kleptocrats who don't want American influence in Ukraine. Similarly, although Ukraine is clearly much more peaceful relative to Russia, there has been low-level conflict for years (including violence in the insurrection and fighting in the contested territories) and there are verifiable claims of them having committed atrocities. All this can be true and Russia can still be engaged in morally (strategically may be a different story) unjustified aggression.
    - fami-com 5y ago
      That's objectively and demonstrably false. The revolution (not an insurrection) didn't happen because of election results (the election was in 2010, the revolution started at the end of 2013 and continued into 2014). It started because the president decided to halt the integration of Ukraine with the EU and was peaceful until the government had decided to escalate. And if you're talking about the Orange Revolution from 2004, that was peaceful all the way through, and lead to a second round of the election, not installing a new leader.
      - Amezarak 5y ago
        You’re going to have to explain the difference between an insurrection and a revolution to me.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  There were world-wide protests against that war [0]. You might consider that many of the people commenting here will have been involved in those protests, or are otherwise well aware that the justifications were a huge flight of fantasy. That doesn't mean that current news from the Russian media isn't also a huge flight of fantasy. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_prot...
- jMyles 5y ago
  I agree that remembering these events is a crucial enterprise in a moment like this. And, since both wars are based on bombastic lies, it seems consistent, given this act of remembering, to call the aggressor in each to account. With these memories still fresh in terms of the cognition of the collective internet, perhaps now we can begin to get serious about a future in which the streams of fantasy which are reliably produced by hegemonic states (or mutually-assured-destructive states) are muted indefinitely, and the capacity for capricious warfare stemming from them dismantled.
TillE 5y ago
Every country has its propaganda and lies, but they're generally couched in half-truths. It's truly remarkable how the Russian flavor of misinformation sounds just like a pathological liar making up wild bullshit that nobody could possibly take seriously. That's been a tradition for decades, as far as I know.
- nine_k 5y ago
  Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister, noted that people more easily believe colossal lies, totally out of whack with reality, exactly because, well, who would say such a wild thing if it were not the terrible truth?
- rjzzleep 5y ago
- jeromegv 5y ago
  I mean… Trump was lying about how many electoral votes he got. It was easily verifiable. Also such a stupid lie because he did have enough electoral votes to win the election anyway. But still! He fabricated that number. He was also truly in pathological liar territory.
  - d23 5y ago
    I'll take the downvotes too. We had a president who idolized Putin and still praises him to this day. If we think this sort of thing can't happen here, or aren't clear eyed about the threat he and his enablers still pose, we are in even more danger.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      Yes, propaganda and political lies is certainly not confined to Russia or backwater dictatorships. In America you also had that president's opponents concocting lies and peddling insane and baseless conspiracy theories for years about him colluding with Putin to hack the election and other such nonsense. That was even more infantile and simple than the propaganda that comes out of Russia.
supergirl 5y ago
anything is possible in war. if Ukraine was on the brink of losing everything and they had nuclear weapons, would they not use them against Russia? that's the whole point. if your state is about to cease to exist, you are desperate. for now, the war has not reached this point. if Ukraine where to try to use nuclear material now they would lose allies. but you don't know what the war will look like in 2 weeks. so I don't think it's fantasy.
- sofixa 5y ago
  No? Considering the nuclear power plants are in Ukraine, and whichever way the wind blows, it will at a minimum impact Ukrainians. And then you can't know where it will end up - maybe Russia, maybe Germany.
  - supergirl 5y ago
    yes, whether Ukraine would actually launch such a bomb is debatable. it's not like it would change the tide of the war, it would be mostly for revenge. war is very unpredictable. I wouldn't rule out anything.
- trashtester 5y ago
  If the Ukranians are willing to sacrifice everything for the independence, chances are, they will get their independence, nukes or not. At least as long as they keep getting support from the west. If Russia keeps getting thousands or tens of thousands of body bags back each year, for 10, 20 or 30 years, eventually, they will tire of holding on to the Ukraine. The cost may be millions of Ukrainian lives, so this all comes down to how much the Ukranian people is willing to endure for their eventual independence.

It doesn't surprise me if they believe that considering the ridiculous stream of fantasy being spewed out of Russian leader and media.

by sidibe 5y ago

It doesn't surprise me if they believe that considering the ridiculous stream of fantasy being spewed out of Russian leader and media.

pasquinelli 5y ago

short_sells_poo 5y ago
This whataboutism has to stop. One bad thing doesn't excuse another. Would you suggest that it's OK to use nuclear weapons because the US used two of them in WW2? I hope not. The invasion of Iraq was based on lies and this is terrible. The invasion of Ukraine is based on lies and it is also terrible.
- mkmk2 5y ago
  Didn't read it as whataboutism. Was more a call to consider the "ridiculous stream of fantasy being spewed out of <country> leader and media" is rhetoric which is almost always applicable somewhere. The spewing's given some credit elsewhere, just not here because they've been pretty cleanly labelled as the enemy. Also maybe because it's batshit, but the people who are unsure of that will have a harder time having a discussion about it because so many people are jumping to emotional or canned responses.
keymone 5y ago
Russian ship, go fuck yourself. Russian bot, convert yourself into a sunflower.
pqwEfkvjs 5y ago
How does that justify Russian actions right now?
dzhiurgis 5y ago
Iraq was a terrorist state full of abuses Russia is a terrorist state full of abuses invading a peaceful democratic country. This is incomparable.
- Amezarak 5y ago
  "Democratic" is used as a thought-terminating cliche. Just a few years ago Ukraine had an insurrection because of their election results and overturned the election to install a new leader. It's a corrupt kleptocratic state very similar to Russia, it's just more of the money comes from American interests than in Russia, and that upsets the Russian kleptocrats who don't want American influence in Ukraine. Similarly, although Ukraine is clearly much more peaceful relative to Russia, there has been low-level conflict for years (including violence in the insurrection and fighting in the contested territories) and there are verifiable claims of them having committed atrocities. All this can be true and Russia can still be engaged in morally (strategically may be a different story) unjustified aggression.
  - fami-com 5y ago
    That's objectively and demonstrably false. The revolution (not an insurrection) didn't happen because of election results (the election was in 2010, the revolution started at the end of 2013 and continued into 2014). It started because the president decided to halt the integration of Ukraine with the EU and was peaceful until the government had decided to escalate. And if you're talking about the Orange Revolution from 2004, that was peaceful all the way through, and lead to a second round of the election, not installing a new leader.
    - Amezarak 5y ago
      You’re going to have to explain the difference between an insurrection and a revolution to me.
nicoburns 5y ago
There were world-wide protests against that war [0]. You might consider that many of the people commenting here will have been involved in those protests, or are otherwise well aware that the justifications were a huge flight of fantasy. That doesn't mean that current news from the Russian media isn't also a huge flight of fantasy. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_prot...
jMyles 5y ago
I agree that remembering these events is a crucial enterprise in a moment like this. And, since both wars are based on bombastic lies, it seems consistent, given this act of remembering, to call the aggressor in each to account. With these memories still fresh in terms of the cognition of the collective internet, perhaps now we can begin to get serious about a future in which the streams of fantasy which are reliably produced by hegemonic states (or mutually-assured-destructive states) are muted indefinitely, and the capacity for capricious warfare stemming from them dismantled.

TillE 5y ago

Every country has its propaganda and lies, but they're generally couched in half-truths. It's truly remarkable how the Russian flavor of misinformation sounds just like a pathological liar making up wild bullshit that nobody could possibly take seriously. That's been a tradition for decades, as far as I know.

nine_k 5y ago
Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister, noted that people more easily believe colossal lies, totally out of whack with reality, exactly because, well, who would say such a wild thing if it were not the terrible truth?
rjzzleep 5y ago
jeromegv 5y ago
I mean… Trump was lying about how many electoral votes he got. It was easily verifiable. Also such a stupid lie because he did have enough electoral votes to win the election anyway. But still! He fabricated that number. He was also truly in pathological liar territory.
- d23 5y ago
  I'll take the downvotes too. We had a president who idolized Putin and still praises him to this day. If we think this sort of thing can't happen here, or aren't clear eyed about the threat he and his enablers still pose, we are in even more danger.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Yes, propaganda and political lies is certainly not confined to Russia or backwater dictatorships. In America you also had that president's opponents concocting lies and peddling insane and baseless conspiracy theories for years about him colluding with Putin to hack the election and other such nonsense. That was even more infantile and simple than the propaganda that comes out of Russia.

supergirl 5y ago

anything is possible in war. if Ukraine was on the brink of losing everything and they had nuclear weapons, would they not use them against Russia? that's the whole point. if your state is about to cease to exist, you are desperate. for now, the war has not reached this point. if Ukraine where to try to use nuclear material now they would lose allies. but you don't know what the war will look like in 2 weeks. so I don't think it's fantasy.

sofixa 5y ago
No? Considering the nuclear power plants are in Ukraine, and whichever way the wind blows, it will at a minimum impact Ukrainians. And then you can't know where it will end up - maybe Russia, maybe Germany.
- supergirl 5y ago
  yes, whether Ukraine would actually launch such a bomb is debatable. it's not like it would change the tide of the war, it would be mostly for revenge. war is very unpredictable. I wouldn't rule out anything.
trashtester 5y ago
If the Ukranians are willing to sacrifice everything for the independence, chances are, they will get their independence, nukes or not. At least as long as they keep getting support from the west. If Russia keeps getting thousands or tens of thousands of body bags back each year, for 10, 20 or 30 years, eventually, they will tire of holding on to the Ukraine. The cost may be millions of Ukrainian lives, so this all comes down to how much the Ukranian people is willing to endure for their eventual independence.