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Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

273 points by throwaway2048 5y ago

jeroenhd 5y ago
Nothing new here. Nintendo hates emulation with a passion. It passionately hates ways people enjoy their devices and platforms in ways they didn't intent. It hates fan projects, it might even hate its fans. Nintendo has a long history of lying in legal documents like DMCAs to take content that doesn't please them down. To be a dedicated fan of Nintendo's franchises is to be a masochist. The Steam deck doesn't just threaten the outdated hardware of the switch in terms of games and gaming performance, it threatens Nintendo's platform on its own turf. Nintendo can't compete with the Steam deck on hardware terms or even game availability. Brand exclusives and a low console price are all it's got, and they seem to know that that's not enough to keep all of their customers glued to their platform.
- rhacker 5y ago
  most of that is not true about hating things. It is trying to make sure people are not stealing games.
- sneak 5y ago
  Nintendo hates emulation that isn't generating Nintendo revenue, to be specific. They sell emulator hardware and emulator software via their platforms.
  - shmerl 5y ago
    No one stops them from selling DRM-free images of their games to be run with any emulator on any platform and generate revenue from that. They don't, so it's their own loss pirates provide that flexibility instead.
  - jklinger410 5y ago
    They would make more money from emulated content if they allowed you to transfer your purchases to the next generation console. So they don't just want to make money off of it, they want every emulated Nintendo title to survive the same way Grand Theft Auto or Skyrim does, except it's just you buying it over and over again on the newest Nintendo console.
    - mrguyorama 5y ago
      They don't even let you buy MOST old games to emulate officially. There's plenty of SNES, GBA, etc games that do not have a legal path to play other than finding the original cartridge on ebay and hoping your original hardware still works.
    - Talanes 5y ago
      And then they're spotty about what they'll actually allow you to buy that way anyway. I would have loved to play the first NA released Fire Emblem legitimately, but they only released it for WiiU.
- candiddevmike 5y ago
  There has to be an alternative reality where I can purchase Nintendo software on Steam, right? Nintendo would make so much money...
  - usrusr 5y ago
    Sounds like a MacOS on third party hardware situation to me. Brand dilution and all that. I wouldn't expect that before they are end-of-days desperate.
    - candiddevmike 5y ago
      But they already sell shitty P2W mobile games on the app stores, seems like hubris trying to maintain their own platform.
      - Klonoar 5y ago
        There's an argument to be made that mobile gaming in Asia is what forced Nintendo's hand on the P2W mobile games. I don't (yet) see a world where Steam has the muscle to do this.
    - genewitch 5y ago
      the mid-90s called, they said "been there, done that". I can't even remember what other brands apple licensed their stuff to, but there were macintosh clones.
      - usrusr 5y ago
        Yeah, it was a reference to that time. It brought Apple so close to the grave that only a music piracy gadget could save them.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  I think the interesting question is, how are they doing it? I would think if you kept the game shots short and incidental the copyright would be fair use.
  - throwanem 5y ago
    A judge would consider the fair use argument. I don't know that YouTube employs judges in content moderation. (I don't know that YouTube employs humans in content moderation, at least below director level.)
    - gitowiec 5y ago
      That made me laugh. Because my movies were also taken down because of background music. And that was the feeling I got when I raised "dispute" in YouTube system to defend my videos. It was like a Russian roulette
    - rezonant 5y ago
      YouTube does not employ judges or humans in deciding whether to honor a content owner's request. It doesn't employ anything. It is up to the content owner to police themselves, only when they mess up royally will YouTube remove them from the content owner system.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      Most YouTube takedowns are not done through DMCA. They're done because YouTube cooperates directly with many content owners to do takedowns voluntarily. There are almost no legal limits or regulatory terms to what YouTube is permitted to voluntarily take down. Fair Use is only a legal defense. It is not a requirement that YouTube host your content.
    - monkeywork 5y ago
      Tom Scott has a great video on Copyright: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jwo5qc78QU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jwo5qc78QU
  - pjc50 5y ago
- endisneigh 5y ago
  I mean, of course Nintendo would hate piracy. You might say emulation can be used with legit roms, or roms for games you’ve purchased, but let’s be honest. The fact Nintendo even exists at all in the face of competitors orders of magnitude bigger is impressive. Nintendo’s position is and always will be that you can only play their games on their platforms.
  - lostgame 5y ago
    >> Nintendo’s position is and always will be that you can only play their games on their platforms. We all felt the same way about SEGA in the early 90’s…
    - themikesanto 5y ago
      ...and now I play Sonic Mania on my Nintendo Switch
      - mattl 5y ago
        And Nintendo will even sell you a Genesis controller. https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/sega-genesis-control-pad/ https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/sega-genesis-control...
    - threeseed 5y ago
      And people have been talking about Nintendo's demise since the early 90's.
  - JoshTriplett 5y ago
    > You might say emulation can be used with legit roms, or roms for games you’ve purchased, but let’s be honest. I have an actual physical NES, SNES, Genesis, N64, Gamecube, and Wii, along with games. The NES and SNES don't reliably run games anymore. I expect the others to eventually follow. And emulation provides better graphics, better features, portability (e.g. playing on a device you can travel with), creativity (romhacks, translations, etc). So yes, emulation can be used with games you actually own, and doing so has great advantages.
- jonny_eh 5y ago
  > Brand exclusives and a low console price are all it's got A lower price and better games is quite a lot actually.
  - hombre_fatal 5y ago
    Switch has an e-shop with expensive games that will eventually get offlined within a couple generations like the ones before it vs. Steam, an e-shop with every game, for cheaper, including all the games people bought over the last two decades. I can imagine how disruptive a successful Steam entry into the console space could be once people realize they are tired of "renting" $60 games from ad-hoc console e-shops.
    - ascar 5y ago
      I have to disagree hard on this. Nintendo was on the forefront of making old games playable on the new hardware. On the switch you can play many old SNES and N64 classics included in the Nintendo online subscription at ~2-4€ a month. They re-released childhood favorites like Zelda Ocarina of Times and Super Mario 64 on the 3DS and I actually bought the 3DS (in a special Zelda variant no less) just for that and Majora's Mask. I had a blast. In comparison Steam and PC in general was late to the party of remastering old games or even just keeping them playable. Getting old Win 98 or even some XP titles running is often a challenge and sometimes borderline impossible.
      - monksy 5y ago
        If you have to pay a subscription and that's the only way to play the classics there.. that's not free
        ascar 5y ago
        Well that's why I said "or". I'm honestly not sure, I never tried to play them while not having a subscription. The subscription at 20€/year is much cheaper than what Microsoft or Playstation are offering though. Edit: I looked it up, it requires the subscription and updated my comment accordingly.
- jrimbault 5y ago
  Japanese animations studios seem equallly litigious.
- staticman2 5y ago
  Switch has better battery life than Deck, has a supply chain which is actually able to aquire parts in mass quantities and sell to a large number of customers, and is more user friendly than any PC will ever be. I'll be buying a Deck in a few months when my preorder is ready to ship, but it's a niche product for tech enthusiasts while Nintendo makes mass market products for the general public.
  - Lascaille 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - mwt 5y ago
    > it's a niche product for tech enthusiasts It is if you want it to be, but it's also a plug-and-play handheld console for PC gamers, which is not a niche market. Yeah, it runs a Linux-based OS but it's not like the user has to install it. Yeah, tinkerers and hackers are gonna do crazy stuff with it, but the vast majority of users will simply exchange $400 for a thing that runs video games.
    - staticman2 5y ago
      Well it's definetly "niche" in that it's not sold in general stores and you have to order it 6 months in advance since Valve can't make them in large quantities at the moment. That's gonna be a deal killer for most consumers for now. Best case scenario it is plug and play for Deck verified games bought on Steam. If you want to play a game you own on GOG or the Epic store that's already going to require some tinkering to get it working in handheld mode if the experience is anything like trying to get the steam controller to work with other stores on PC. Similarly anything not sold on Steam (Including any Ubisoft game or Blizzard game these days I think). And all the parts of the Steam catalogue that just aren't verified to run well.
      - mwt 5y ago
- beebmam 5y ago
  And out of all this, by far the most unethical thing Nintendo has ever done is refuse to release an English-language translation of Mother 3. I'll never forgive them for this, and I decided long ago I'll never buy another one of their products until they release it.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    I'm sorry, but how is a company deciding not to localise and release a product to a certain market unethical?
    - avindroth 5y ago
      People like to complain, especially to big rich companies.
  - newbie789 5y ago
- newbie789 5y ago
  > To be a dedicated fan of Nintendo's franchises is to be a masochist. For example I am a Zelda and Metroid fan (by “fan” I mean “someone that enjoys playing those games”), but I don’t think I’ve ever cared about any video game to the point of actually subjecting myself to any suffering. I know even more diehard friends than me that happily use emulators for games that they can’t find/afford. Maybe there is a masochistic style of being a fan that someone can choose to subscribe to, but it’s not clear that it’s Nintendo’s fault that one would make such a choice.
- teawrecks 5y ago
  > Nintendo has a long history of lying in legal documents like DMCAs to take content that doesn't please them down. Something something that's capitalism. But seriously, what do we do as responsible consumers and voters to prevent this? Should there be a measurable penalty for knowingly lying on DMCA takedown orders, something proportional to the estimation of attempted damages caused? It's obviously anticompetitive, but can anything be done?
- 999900000999 5y ago
  This completely encourages piracy of recently released software. You can't give me the archivist argument that there's no other ways to experience these games. Nintendo is not targeting the same market as the Steam Deck. The Steam Deck still looks too much like a prototype for me to want to buy it. A very large percentage of games available on Steam will simply not work on a steam deck. Nobody knows if it's even possible to get Microsoft Game Pass running on it, and for many PC gamers that's a significant percentage of your library. Nobody knows if other storefronts are going to play ball. For example, I really wanted to play the HD. Tony hawk. But since Epic has an exclusive deal, I dusted off my PS4 and played it there. Compare this to a Nintendo switch, it's a small game console for me to play Smash Bros and Advance Wars. It's a vastly more polished experience. I don't need to worry about Photon compatibility issues , I can just play a video game. It's as if someone posted "Here's how you get Netflix for free", and Netflix filed a DMCA request against it. You can't call Netflix the bad guy here. Likewise Nintendo isn't monopolizing an essential service, you can enjoy other content. You just don't have a right to enjoy theirs without paying the entry fee. For example, if you decide you don't want to buy a Mac, and then your Hackintosh gets your Apple account banned, you have no one to blame but yourself.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    >>Nobody knows if it's even possible to get Microsoft Game Pass running on it What do you mean nobody knows? Just install windows on it, and play your Gamepass games? Same with the Epic launcher. >>It's as if someone posted "Here's how you get Netflix for free", and Netflix filed a DMCA request against it. That's not even remotely comparable. May I remind you that in US Sony has lost the legal battle against Blem! Emulator, for this exact reason, and the court was explicit in its ruling - the games that you own can be played on other systems using emulators and Sony doesn't get to have a say in it. >>You just don't have a right to enjoy theirs without paying the entry fee. No one said anything about playing games without paying for them. That's your own interpretation. >>Compare this to a Nintendo switch, it's a small game console for me to play Smash Bros and Advance Wars. It's a vastly more polished experience. Literally no one is making you get rid of your switch. Enjoy the system and the experiences on it.
- afrcnc 5y ago
  I stopped buying their crap years ago. No platform lock for me.
  - avindroth 5y ago
    Don’t platform locks lead to better games?
- vlunkr 5y ago
  > The Steam deck doesn't just threaten the outdated hardware of the switch in terms of games and gaming performance, it threatens Nintendo's platform on its own turf. I really doubt it. - It doesn't include a dock or any external controller without paying more. This was the entire pitch for the Switch - It's more expensive and has worse battery life. Better graphics don't matter that much on a tiny screen. (Game Gear anyone?) - Valve has a bad track record for committing to their own hardware. Remember how everyone also thought SteamOS was going to be the big takeover and it barely even happened? - It runs linux. I run linux and love it, but running specific games, correctly interfacing with a variety of inputs and displays, it's just not going to be as smooth as a console with a dedicated OS. I'm guessing lots of people will install windows. - Their marketing is basically non-existent next to Nintendo. It's impressive how successful Steam is without really marketing, but that won't fly in the console space. Having a successful console launch is incredibly hard. Nintendo only manages it about half the time. - From what I've read, the emulation isn't perfect. Switch emulators even on desktop hardware can't necessarily handle every game well, why would the Steam Deck be able to?
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    > - It doesn't include a dock or any external controller without paying more. This was the entire pitch for the Switch did you miss the fact that they now sell undockable Switch versions? > m guessing lots of people will install windows. You will be surprised. A lot of customization went in steamOS that wont be easily done on a windows build
  - jbluepolarbear 5y ago
    Battery life is variable. Pokémon kills my switch in about 1.5 hours. It’s been shown that , depending on the setting, steam deck can rival switch in battery life. Playing a modern game at high settings and uncapped frame rate will kill your battery, but low settings and capping frame rate at 30fps will make the steam deck last much longer.
  - TuringTest 5y ago
    > Valve has a bad track record for committing to their own hardware. Remember how everyone also thought SteamOS was going to be the big takeover and it barely even happened? You seem to be unaware that SteamOS was a a resounding success in its primary goal: to stop in its tracks Microsoft's plan to turn the Windows OS into a locked-down walled garden that would run only MS-approved software* (by threatening them to switch the majority of gamers to Linux). Microsoft has never attempted such thing again to the same extent, and even XBox games are largely PC compatible. That Valve has learned a lot about porting Windows games to Linux and they went through all the early labor pains, so that a few years later they have a robust and stable platform for their new competitive device, is just icing on the cake. * For a hint of this backstory, see https://www.pcworld.com/article/394953/why-does-the-steam-deck-run-linux-blame-windows.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/394953/why-does-the-steam-de... > it's just not going to be as smooth as a console with a dedicated OS. I'm guessing lots of people will install windows. This is a console with a dedicated OS (which just happens to be Windows retro-compatible, thanks to Valve's Proton layer). Given the success it looks set to have, publishers won't be able to afford not to optimize their future AAA games for the device.
- epolanski 5y ago
  Their brand exclusives are by far the most envied.
- jmyeet 5y ago
  I'm all for emulating systems that don't exist anymore. But this commenter's level of naive entitlement is beyond obnoxious. A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't. Switches are generally available and not that expensive. If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don't. And failing that if you want to just steal, then just steal. But what really rubs me the wrong way is when people who have chosen to steal start moralizing their position like they're standing up for some vague rights or principles. At least be honest about it. The hyporcrisy, intellectual dishonesty, bad faith arguments and self-delusion is in many ways worse than the theft.
  - notyourwork 5y ago
    > If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don't. +1 I like hacking and tinkering with tech but these should not be socialized solutions for the masses. They are fun hobby projects, if you want the thing go buy it. The money supports the thing and is the reason it exists.
  - dolni 5y ago
    > A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" This is an awful rule to live by. There are very few things in the world that _everyone_ would actually do.
    - Aethylia 5y ago
      While true, that isn't the point of the rule. The meaning is that _if_ everyone did what you do, what _would_ happen. The practi alities of that are irrelevant. It's really about asking yourself if your actions are sustainable or damaging by scaling them up.
      - dolni 5y ago
        Perhaps, in this instance, we should be asking the more pressing question of what will happen if we allow powerful corporations to suppress knowledge that they don't like.
- evanextreme 5y ago
  comparing the switch to the deck is akin to comparing a ps5 to a top of the line pc, in terms of both UX, time / effort required to run games, price, etc. consoles are _always_ underpowered and restricted in terms of graphical capabilities compared to computers, but the minimal amount of effort required, exclusive game library, and significantly lower price point (all of which the switch have over the deck) keep the market incredibly successful at least in north america. keep in mind, a lot of people like to play their switch connected to a television using the dock, a feature which will generally cost you an additional 150 bucks to play on the deck ($100 deck dock, $60 wireless bluetooth controller). not to say the deck isnt a fantastic product, i am absolutely getting one, but there's a reason the console market is still booming and hasnt eradicated the console market despite being the "superior platform". they fill separate needs
- deleted 5y ago
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- polished85 5y ago
  If keeping the "how to" videos off the internet is their survival strategy, they've already lost. IMO this is not a threat to Nintendo, and those who want to emulate will figure it out no matter how many YouTube videos get taken down.
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  My company has access to special equipment under NDA, so I might be very biased. But my impression is that Nintendo is working super hard to keep game developers happy. And that includes working DRM. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's why you see so many games on Steam and so relatively few on Gog. And can you really fault studios who put in 100+ mio USD into financing a new game that they hate with a passion those people who play but don't pay? Nintendo has to act strongly against emulation, or else their game development partners will be upset. The other thing that I believe Nintendo is extremely concerned about is making things family safe. With an actual Switch, you can put it into kids mode, set a play timer, and safely hand it to your kid. That's also why they do not have a web browser. What did you expect would happen with a video showing DRM removal, software piracy, and the ability to mix in adult content?
0x500x79 5y ago
There should be more accountability for incorrect DMCAs. I see why Nintendo is doing this, but it is wrong. Nintendo is famous for reselling old games on each and every new platform they build and this takes away that revenue. According to a thread on Reddit this video only showed emulators and not ROMs. Pretty wild that there is no accountability for these actions.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- TheDong 5y ago
  > this video only showed emulators and not ROMs It is probably still in violation of the DMCA. The DMCA also makes illegal tools that are primarily intended for circumvention, which these emulators almost certainly are. But, even moreso, removals of videos on youtube are typically not done through the DMCA directly, but rather through a private extra-judicial system youtube manages (content-id et al). Of course youtube has the rights, as a private company, to remove videos for no reason. Of course Nintendo can request youtube to remove any video for any reasons, DMCA or not, with no legal issues. I doubt any DMCA, false or otherwise, has actually been issued in this case, and "accountability for incorrect DMCAs" would not help as a result.
  - causality0 5y ago
    I can't speak for other countries but emulators are 100% legal in the United States.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - humanistbot 5y ago
    > It is probably still in violation of the DMCA. The DMCA also makes illegal tools that are primarily intended for circumvention, which these emulators almost certainly are. Nope. Emulators do not circumvent copy protection. When a ROM maker is extracting the game content from the original version, they are breaking copy protection. The ROM file they create and distribute does not have copy protection, so the emulator does not need to include copy protection circumvention. > But, even moreso, removals of videos on youtube are typically not done through the DMCA directly, but rather through a private extra-judicial system youtube manages (content-id et al). These are not, which is the point. Nintendo is doing this intentionally with their own DMCA takedowns. These aren't accidental false positives picked up by content id.
shmerl 5y ago
Someone is scared Switch got competition that can run Nintendo games that even Switch itself can't.
- meibo 5y ago
  Not really can't, moreso won't. It's embarrassing how small their retro games lineup is, so long after launch. And yet they're raking it in, because their extremely low quality online offering is so cheap that it doesn't matter to most.
- causality0 5y ago
  I wonder how the Steam Deck does with Switch games that run notoriously poorly, like Age of Calamity.
  - jeroenhd 5y ago
    That's perhaps the saddest part of this ordeal, the Deck struggles to keep framerates consistent in all but the easiest to run games. From what I've seen most games are playable, but there are often stutters and interruptions because of things like shader compilation that seem to make the whole experience quite frustrating. The other issue is that the manageable framerates only exist when the Deck is throwing everything it's got at the emulator. The advertised battery life of the Deck is shorter to begin with, and the chip constantly running at max power only makes that worse. I doubt anyone is going to buy a Deck instead of a Switch to run Switch games. Any fan seeing clear footage of game performance should realise that to play Switch games, you should really just get a Switch. By killing the videos, they're giving off the signal that they're afraid of emulators encroaching on their territory, which will only drive Deck sales.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    It wouldn't be any different than PC. the steam deck is essentially x86 squeezed into the format of a switch/gameboy/handheld_x
  - tvb12 5y ago
    I'd be interested to know how it does with Breath of the Wild as well. Animal Crossing, too. We own both games, but the Switch's long load times hamper my fun. It's especially a problem in Animal Crossing. Last time I looked, it took an uncommonly powerful computer to emulate BoTW, but I haven't looked in a long time.
fermentation 5y ago
Nintendo has a history of being very anti-emulation (see https://www.nintendo.com.au/legal/information https://www.nintendo.com.au/legal/information). With their stance it's no wonder their own first-party emulators are so poorly made.
- PebblesHD 5y ago
  > Also, the limited right which the Copyright Act gives to make backup copies of computer programs does not apply to Nintendo video games. That seems like quite an assertion, largely untested in Australian courts I would assume, as our consumer watchdog is usually pretty good at ensuring we’re able to exercise what relatively few rights we do have in regards to purchased products.
  - antifa 5y ago
    > does not apply to Nintendo video games Nintendo's opinion is obviously false and easily ignored.
joenathanone 5y ago
I wouldn't have known about this if not for the take down, now I am interested in purchasing a Steam Deck.
- weberer 5y ago
  You're going to be waiting in line for a long time.
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    Still waiting for the 2019 Index to be actually in stock in Australia.
- threeseed 5y ago
  If people were showing you how to bypass Steam and download games for free do you really think Valve wouldn't use DCMA to have it removed ? Because I can't think of any business who would tolerate this.
  - snvzz 5y ago
    False equivalence. These videos aren't showing how to download games for free.
  - LeoPanthera 5y ago
    Emulation, unlike software piracy, is not illegal.
  - kevinh 5y ago
    I seriously doubt they would. Gabe Newell, Valve's owner, has talked about how piracy is a service problem. Steam is wildly successful even though most of the games on the service either have no DRM or Steam's easily cracked one. There's also a YT video from over a year ago with over 250k views with a title about pirating games, which I imagine would've gotten taken down if Valve cared since it references Steam specifically.
  - Karsteski 5y ago
prvc 5y ago
What is the legal theory under which they are asserting ownership of such videos? Could this be avoided by excluding all footage of in-game cutscenes?
eezurr 5y ago
Nintendo really cares about the Nintendo experience, from their games all the way to the physical product people hold to experience them. And it shows. People talk about Nintendo as if a spell has been cast on them (much in the way Apple fans talk about Apple). If you look into how much Nintendo spends on R&D and compare it to their revenues, you'll see they are _really_ serious about R&D. It would be detrimental to their business to allow that experience to be watered down. There's nothing to be angry about. I dont think a product (at the scale and quality as Nintendo, Apple, etc) can exist in this world without it being in total control by the people who know how to create that experience. I'll happily pay more money to a company I trust to deliver quality (and fewer, polished options), much like people love Apple because it removes so many choices from people's lexicon. Perhaps (I'll hesitantly say young) people don't realize that with freedom comes the more choices. And with more choices, you spend less time enjoying the product. You're a different market. You have time to research the hundreds of different flavors of Linux (as an example). There's nothing wrong with that; just be aware of what you're buying and dont complain when they aren't catering to your needs.
- munchbunny 5y ago
  I disagree with the "young" part, to the extent that plenty of young people who are not power users understand this tradeoff viscerally just as much as older people do. The main difference I see is that people who are of working age tend to be more willing to pay money/a premium for someone to remove the need to make those choices.
  - enos_feedler 5y ago
    Also I would actually say that older folks that have been around for the more open systems when the web was flourishing have a bias for things to always be this way, even if it was transient. Younger people who experience more locked down things throughout their existence come to expect it. So not sure about the young vs old
- corndoge 5y ago
  Corporate censorship is unacceptable
oversocialized 5y ago
genewitch 5y ago
As someone who has the Steam Link, a PSTV (the old one), and a switch, the switch is the only one with anything approaching "turn it on and play a game". I only play the switch 'docked', on a large screen. The steam controller is, in my opinion, a really poor control device. The switch pro controller at least does normal controller-like things - although i think it's too small. The PSTV generally has issues with updates or connectivity, but when it works it's roughly the same quality on my 720p projector as the switch and the steam link. And there's the answer to "why not just play the Playstation directly?" - in order to get sound that's synchronized with the screen, you need a way to get the video from the sound bar area where the playstation lives to the projector, which is a dozen feet away, on the ceiling. With the switch, the dock is next to the projector, and bluetooth sends audio fast enough for 99% of switch games. Steam link has built in BT as well. Sony doesn't. long range HDMI cables cost more than the PSTV did, so there's all the answers anyone could want. When, once or twice a month i want to sit on the most comfortable chair in my house and play a game, it's the switch. I also try my best to only buy games with cartridges unless there's a serious sale and i have a gift card.
dcchambers 5y ago
I am not going to blatantly support piracy of video games (Most of us work in the software industry, and most of us want to get paid for our work. Video games should be no different.), but I think it's clear that game preservation has some issues in its current state, and Nintendo is one of the worst offenders. Nintendo is a lot like Apple in this way. They see things in one way, and assume all consumers will happily conform to that standard. They are stubborn and perhaps less willing to listen to the consumer than any other major video game company. And we all know that gamers are some of the most vocal, opinionated fans out there. In my opinion, if you own a game (digitally or physically), there are absolutely zero moral qualms, and there should be zero legal issues, with playing a copy of that game on an emulator. Emulation is 100% legal and should be encouraged. ESPECIALLY because Nintendo makes it such a challenge to legally acquire old games, I understand why people turn to piracy and emulators. I think Nintendo is within their rights to not want people showing videos of how to explicitly download pirated games and emulate them, but I don't see any way they can prevent people from simply showing an emulated game.
- asimops 5y ago
  But where do you still find games that you own? You might be lucky enought to still own a physical media but the game is still only licensed to you. What if the licensor decides that the media will burn the first account it is used with into some efuses? No more selling that cart. You can be f*cked with every minute. Or just a hypothetical example: you bought a cool sandbox game in alpha and then some years later, some big IT corp comes around and requires that you now have to use their account system, hand over your data and agree to being tracked.
  - _michaelll 5y ago
    Shit, thanks for reminding me I have migrate before they lock me out
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  > In my opinion, if you own a game (digitally or physically), there are absolutely zero moral qualms, and there should be zero legal issues, with playing a copy of that game on an emulator. I agree. However—What percentage of the people who visit a Switch rom site, and are scrolling through the list of games, think "oh, that game looks interesting, but I don't own it. I won't download that one. Maybe I'll buy an eShop code off Amazon, and then come back and download it." I've been that person. I'd hazard a guess that people like me make up 0.1% of users, at most. And I'm being generous. There's a problem here. Possibly one with no solution; I don't know the right thing to do. But, I certainly don't fault Nintendo for their hostility towards emulators.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
This is why peertube and other are so important. Despite all the garbage hate stuff on there, just ignore the loonies and look for the good stuff.
chaostheory 5y ago
It's hard to defend what Nintendo is doing because no one can actually buy old NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, and Wii titles online legally.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Mario-Galaxy-Marketplace-Brands-Nintendo-Wii-Refurbished/757842271 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Mario-Galaxy-Marketplace-Br... I realize that's not a digital download, but these titles were never offered as digital downloads, and Nintendo isn't obligated to use the exact format which suits your needs. (And while Nintendo isn't directly profiting from used sales, high prices on the secondary market make their new games seem like good investments.) (If we were talking about WiiWare exclusively, I'd have a very different attitude.)
  - chaostheory 5y ago
    > I realize that's not a digital download, but these titles were never offered as digital download That's not a good excuse. > Nintendo isn't obligated to use the exact format which suits your needs You're right. They're just providing a really good argument for the continuation of mass piracy of their products.
- avindroth 5y ago
  Why is Nintendo obliged to provide older content, or otherwise allow emulation? If a company ceases to provide something, does that give you rights to acquire that something illegally?
  - chaostheory 5y ago
    It doesn't give anyone the rights to anything. What it does though is provide a massive incentive for piracy. While I don't pirate myself, I can see many rational people do it for Nintendo products, and I don't have a good argument against it.
  - EMIRELADERO 5y ago
ectospheno 5y ago
Everyone on HN when someone isn’t paying them for their product : “How dare they, everyone be mad at them with me.” Everyone on HN when something they don’t want to pay for does the same thing: “How dare they, everyone be be mad at them with me.”
bdowling 5y ago
This isn't only a copyright issue. Nintendo can also complain that these videos create a likelihood of confusion regarding an association between Nintendo and Steam Deck. That's a trademark issue, not copyright. Before you say, "No reasonable person would believe that Switch games running on Steam Deck are authorized by Nintendo," that's an argument that you raise when you are sued for trademark infringement. No one wants that, so they take the videos down.
shirro 5y ago
Nintendo have the right to protect their IP and revenue. They have made some iconic games and characters that I would argue are as culturely significant as anything made by Disney. I would like them to be able to keep funding creative people. However their revenues almost entirely comes from the new and not the old. Games don't go into syndication and get tv reruns. They are kept alive by the emulation community and I would argue it builds support for Nintendo's IP rather than do them damage. I have a kid whose first exposure to Metroid was Metroid Dread which he loved. We have a Wii but it is struggling a bit and he is playing through the Prime trilogy on Dolphin. No question he is going to go nuts when Nintendo release Prime 4. Cheap marketing. I have been tempted to rip our Switch games to run on Yuzu but to be honest the Switch (we have 3 in the house) is just an ideal platform for these games and playing on a PC is going to be a worse experience in almost every way. The story is very different with older platforms. These will be history soon without emulation.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  > However their revenues almost entirely comes from the new and not the old. Games don't go into syndication and get tv reruns. They are kept alive by the emulation community and I would argue it builds support for Nintendo's IP rather than do them damage. Note that in this case, we're talking about a Switch emulator. > Playing on a PC is going to be a worse experience in almost every way. I mean, not necessarily. I would argue that Breath of the Wild is already a better experience on a powerful PC (not necessarily a Steam Deck), once everything is set up. You can play in 4K and 60 fps with a long draw distance. --- I wish there was an easy, accessible way to rip legitimate cartridges for emulation. The problem is that no reasonable person is ever going to buy a game to play it in an emulator, because it requires an order of magnitude more work than downloading the game for free. (The only exception I can think of is the PS2; PCSX2 can play PS2 games directly from a standard optical drive, and was released in an era when such drives were standard.)
  - Nursie 5y ago
    > The only exception I can think of is the PS2; PCSX2 can play PS2 games directly from a standard optical drive I'm not sure of anything else directly as easy, but both the PSP and Wii could be made to rip their own disks, with the appropriate firmware installed, and some PC DVD drives were apparently Wii-disc compatible, but not all. As you say though, it's extra work even then. I think I would probably buy the game and then download from an internet source, if I wanted to emulate but stay honest.
danShumway 5y ago
There's a really surprising amount of confusion in these comments about how copyright (at least in the US) works. More confusion than I expected to see on a site like Hackernews. Emulators are legal, including emulators for current-gen systems. Switch emulation is exactly as legal as Gameboy emulation. You can argue current-gen emulators are irresponsible, you can say they're mostly used for piracy, but Nintendo doesn't have a right to stop people from talking about emulators. Taking down videos that talk about emulators is not Nintendo protecting its IP, it is an abuse of the DMCA or other non-DMCA tools in Youtube to shut down conversation that Nintendo has no legal right to shut down. Nintendo does not have the legal right to demand people not talk about emulators or share how they work, that's not a right that IP law grants. To say that they're protecting their IP is just false, they're claiming IP rights that they don't have. Of course in this scenario, no one is going to challenge these takedowns because no one wants to get sued, and the stakes are ultimately unbelievably low. But a video about how to install an emulator is probably not copyright infringement, and (IANAL), I would be very surprised to see Nintendo get a positive ruling if they actually sued someone over showing how to install an emulator on a computer. Again, IANAL, but I'm not even sure you would claim fair use in a case like this. Fair use is a defense for violating copyright, and emulators don't violate copyright. Discussions about the morality of emulation and the proliferation of piracy are fine, this can be a complicated subject with moral ramifications. But legally speaking, at least in the US, emulators are not piracy and talking about them is not copyright infringement.
- lrae 5y ago
  > More confusion than I expected to see on a site like Hackernews. Kinda funny, because... you're here claiming that Nintendo is (likely) doing something illegal here and are adding to the confusion. The thing is, the removals that are in the press right now, especially the Steam Deck one, had gameplay in them... and as far as I know and understand US law and its current interpretation, Nintendo is likely well within its rights to DMCA gameplay.
  - ThrustVectoring 5y ago
    The problem is using the process of threatening legal action to suppress speech. This is the very problem that anti-SLAPP statutes are designed to protect against; if they're ineffective in this case, they should be amended to explicitly cover DMCA notices in a way that dissuades using them to suppress speech. For what it's worth, using a brief clip of an emulated Switch game seems to me to clearly fall under Fair Use. It's transformative and does not substitute for the original work, often non-profit and/or educational, is a small portion of the copyrighted work, and fails to displace any sales.
papa2034 5y ago
Valve should put some effort on preventing emulation on this device. It’s going to hurt them as well.
Shadonototra 5y ago
Wtf is that title, they remove nothing, Google remove videos Where is dang yo? This adoration for japanese companies is dangerous, the west really want to go extinct
3np 5y ago
Nintendo didn’t remove anything. YouTube removed them after Nintendo asked them to. Yes, I understand how DMCA tends to work but nobody other than YouTube can effectively remove videos. (Obvious you most readers here I assume but it’s not just a headline issue - the same framing appears in TFA)
advael 5y ago
I'm honestly feeling like my perspective must be bubbled somehow. Can anyone point to an example of the DMCA doing anything that isn't just snuffing out the efforts of small communities or individuals in service of some megacorp's imagined potential extortion profits?
pipeline_peak 5y ago
It’s almost like they don’t want users playing their exclusive titles on a competing, similar product. How dare they
SLWW 5y ago
This was finally the article to get me to buy the Steam Deck, since if i can do switch emulation... I'm sure I can get it to emulate most everything else I would want it for (legacy stuff, you feel me?), and that's all i really want :)
throw_m239339 5y ago
Nintendo is removing nothing on Youtube. It's Youtube who is removing content at Nintendo's request. Subtle but important difference. You can be mad at Nintendo, but you should then also be mad at Google the exact same way.
deleted 5y ago
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273 points by throwaway2048 5y ago

Nothing new here. Nintendo hates emulation with a passion. It passionately hates ways people enjoy their devices and platforms in ways they didn't intent. It hates fan projects, it might even hate its fans. Nintendo has a long history of lying in legal documents like DMCAs to take content that doesn't please them down. To be a dedicated fan of Nintendo's franchises is to be a masochist. The Steam deck doesn't just threaten the outdated hardware of the switch in terms of games and gaming performance, it threatens Nintendo's platform on its own turf. Nintendo can't compete with the Steam deck on hardware terms or even game availability. Brand exclusives and a low console price are all it's got, and they seem to know that that's not enough to keep all of their customers glued to their platform.

rhacker 5y ago
most of that is not true about hating things. It is trying to make sure people are not stealing games.
sneak 5y ago
Nintendo hates emulation that isn't generating Nintendo revenue, to be specific. They sell emulator hardware and emulator software via their platforms.
- shmerl 5y ago
  No one stops them from selling DRM-free images of their games to be run with any emulator on any platform and generate revenue from that. They don't, so it's their own loss pirates provide that flexibility instead.
- jklinger410 5y ago
  They would make more money from emulated content if they allowed you to transfer your purchases to the next generation console. So they don't just want to make money off of it, they want every emulated Nintendo title to survive the same way Grand Theft Auto or Skyrim does, except it's just you buying it over and over again on the newest Nintendo console.
  - mrguyorama 5y ago
    They don't even let you buy MOST old games to emulate officially. There's plenty of SNES, GBA, etc games that do not have a legal path to play other than finding the original cartridge on ebay and hoping your original hardware still works.
  - Talanes 5y ago
    And then they're spotty about what they'll actually allow you to buy that way anyway. I would have loved to play the first NA released Fire Emblem legitimately, but they only released it for WiiU.
candiddevmike 5y ago
There has to be an alternative reality where I can purchase Nintendo software on Steam, right? Nintendo would make so much money...
- usrusr 5y ago
  Sounds like a MacOS on third party hardware situation to me. Brand dilution and all that. I wouldn't expect that before they are end-of-days desperate.
  - candiddevmike 5y ago
    But they already sell shitty P2W mobile games on the app stores, seems like hubris trying to maintain their own platform.
    - Klonoar 5y ago
      There's an argument to be made that mobile gaming in Asia is what forced Nintendo's hand on the P2W mobile games. I don't (yet) see a world where Steam has the muscle to do this.
  - genewitch 5y ago
    the mid-90s called, they said "been there, done that". I can't even remember what other brands apple licensed their stuff to, but there were macintosh clones.
    - usrusr 5y ago
      Yeah, it was a reference to that time. It brought Apple so close to the grave that only a music piracy gadget could save them.
- deleted 5y ago
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jay_kyburz 5y ago
I think the interesting question is, how are they doing it? I would think if you kept the game shots short and incidental the copyright would be fair use.
- throwanem 5y ago
  A judge would consider the fair use argument. I don't know that YouTube employs judges in content moderation. (I don't know that YouTube employs humans in content moderation, at least below director level.)
  - gitowiec 5y ago
    That made me laugh. Because my movies were also taken down because of background music. And that was the feeling I got when I raised "dispute" in YouTube system to defend my videos. It was like a Russian roulette
  - rezonant 5y ago
    YouTube does not employ judges or humans in deciding whether to honor a content owner's request. It doesn't employ anything. It is up to the content owner to police themselves, only when they mess up royally will YouTube remove them from the content owner system.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Most YouTube takedowns are not done through DMCA. They're done because YouTube cooperates directly with many content owners to do takedowns voluntarily. There are almost no legal limits or regulatory terms to what YouTube is permitted to voluntarily take down. Fair Use is only a legal defense. It is not a requirement that YouTube host your content.
  - monkeywork 5y ago
    Tom Scott has a great video on Copyright: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jwo5qc78QU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jwo5qc78QU
- pjc50 5y ago
endisneigh 5y ago
I mean, of course Nintendo would hate piracy. You might say emulation can be used with legit roms, or roms for games you’ve purchased, but let’s be honest. The fact Nintendo even exists at all in the face of competitors orders of magnitude bigger is impressive. Nintendo’s position is and always will be that you can only play their games on their platforms.
- lostgame 5y ago
  >> Nintendo’s position is and always will be that you can only play their games on their platforms. We all felt the same way about SEGA in the early 90’s…
  - themikesanto 5y ago
    ...and now I play Sonic Mania on my Nintendo Switch
    - mattl 5y ago
      And Nintendo will even sell you a Genesis controller. https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/sega-genesis-control-pad/ https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/sega-genesis-control...
  - threeseed 5y ago
    And people have been talking about Nintendo's demise since the early 90's.
- JoshTriplett 5y ago
  > You might say emulation can be used with legit roms, or roms for games you’ve purchased, but let’s be honest. I have an actual physical NES, SNES, Genesis, N64, Gamecube, and Wii, along with games. The NES and SNES don't reliably run games anymore. I expect the others to eventually follow. And emulation provides better graphics, better features, portability (e.g. playing on a device you can travel with), creativity (romhacks, translations, etc). So yes, emulation can be used with games you actually own, and doing so has great advantages.
jonny_eh 5y ago
> Brand exclusives and a low console price are all it's got A lower price and better games is quite a lot actually.
- hombre_fatal 5y ago
  Switch has an e-shop with expensive games that will eventually get offlined within a couple generations like the ones before it vs. Steam, an e-shop with every game, for cheaper, including all the games people bought over the last two decades. I can imagine how disruptive a successful Steam entry into the console space could be once people realize they are tired of "renting" $60 games from ad-hoc console e-shops.
  - ascar 5y ago
    I have to disagree hard on this. Nintendo was on the forefront of making old games playable on the new hardware. On the switch you can play many old SNES and N64 classics included in the Nintendo online subscription at ~2-4€ a month. They re-released childhood favorites like Zelda Ocarina of Times and Super Mario 64 on the 3DS and I actually bought the 3DS (in a special Zelda variant no less) just for that and Majora's Mask. I had a blast. In comparison Steam and PC in general was late to the party of remastering old games or even just keeping them playable. Getting old Win 98 or even some XP titles running is often a challenge and sometimes borderline impossible.
    - monksy 5y ago
      If you have to pay a subscription and that's the only way to play the classics there.. that's not free
      - ascar 5y ago
        Well that's why I said "or". I'm honestly not sure, I never tried to play them while not having a subscription. The subscription at 20€/year is much cheaper than what Microsoft or Playstation are offering though. Edit: I looked it up, it requires the subscription and updated my comment accordingly.
jrimbault 5y ago
Japanese animations studios seem equallly litigious.
staticman2 5y ago
Switch has better battery life than Deck, has a supply chain which is actually able to aquire parts in mass quantities and sell to a large number of customers, and is more user friendly than any PC will ever be. I'll be buying a Deck in a few months when my preorder is ready to ship, but it's a niche product for tech enthusiasts while Nintendo makes mass market products for the general public.
- Lascaille 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
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- mwt 5y ago
  > it's a niche product for tech enthusiasts It is if you want it to be, but it's also a plug-and-play handheld console for PC gamers, which is not a niche market. Yeah, it runs a Linux-based OS but it's not like the user has to install it. Yeah, tinkerers and hackers are gonna do crazy stuff with it, but the vast majority of users will simply exchange $400 for a thing that runs video games.
  - staticman2 5y ago
    Well it's definetly "niche" in that it's not sold in general stores and you have to order it 6 months in advance since Valve can't make them in large quantities at the moment. That's gonna be a deal killer for most consumers for now. Best case scenario it is plug and play for Deck verified games bought on Steam. If you want to play a game you own on GOG or the Epic store that's already going to require some tinkering to get it working in handheld mode if the experience is anything like trying to get the steam controller to work with other stores on PC. Similarly anything not sold on Steam (Including any Ubisoft game or Blizzard game these days I think). And all the parts of the Steam catalogue that just aren't verified to run well.
    - mwt 5y ago
beebmam 5y ago
And out of all this, by far the most unethical thing Nintendo has ever done is refuse to release an English-language translation of Mother 3. I'll never forgive them for this, and I decided long ago I'll never buy another one of their products until they release it.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  I'm sorry, but how is a company deciding not to localise and release a product to a certain market unethical?
  - avindroth 5y ago
    People like to complain, especially to big rich companies.
- newbie789 5y ago
newbie789 5y ago
> To be a dedicated fan of Nintendo's franchises is to be a masochist. For example I am a Zelda and Metroid fan (by “fan” I mean “someone that enjoys playing those games”), but I don’t think I’ve ever cared about any video game to the point of actually subjecting myself to any suffering. I know even more diehard friends than me that happily use emulators for games that they can’t find/afford. Maybe there is a masochistic style of being a fan that someone can choose to subscribe to, but it’s not clear that it’s Nintendo’s fault that one would make such a choice.
teawrecks 5y ago
> Nintendo has a long history of lying in legal documents like DMCAs to take content that doesn't please them down. Something something that's capitalism. But seriously, what do we do as responsible consumers and voters to prevent this? Should there be a measurable penalty for knowingly lying on DMCA takedown orders, something proportional to the estimation of attempted damages caused? It's obviously anticompetitive, but can anything be done?
999900000999 5y ago
This completely encourages piracy of recently released software. You can't give me the archivist argument that there's no other ways to experience these games. Nintendo is not targeting the same market as the Steam Deck. The Steam Deck still looks too much like a prototype for me to want to buy it. A very large percentage of games available on Steam will simply not work on a steam deck. Nobody knows if it's even possible to get Microsoft Game Pass running on it, and for many PC gamers that's a significant percentage of your library. Nobody knows if other storefronts are going to play ball. For example, I really wanted to play the HD. Tony hawk. But since Epic has an exclusive deal, I dusted off my PS4 and played it there. Compare this to a Nintendo switch, it's a small game console for me to play Smash Bros and Advance Wars. It's a vastly more polished experience. I don't need to worry about Photon compatibility issues , I can just play a video game. It's as if someone posted "Here's how you get Netflix for free", and Netflix filed a DMCA request against it. You can't call Netflix the bad guy here. Likewise Nintendo isn't monopolizing an essential service, you can enjoy other content. You just don't have a right to enjoy theirs without paying the entry fee. For example, if you decide you don't want to buy a Mac, and then your Hackintosh gets your Apple account banned, you have no one to blame but yourself.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>Nobody knows if it's even possible to get Microsoft Game Pass running on it What do you mean nobody knows? Just install windows on it, and play your Gamepass games? Same with the Epic launcher. >>It's as if someone posted "Here's how you get Netflix for free", and Netflix filed a DMCA request against it. That's not even remotely comparable. May I remind you that in US Sony has lost the legal battle against Blem! Emulator, for this exact reason, and the court was explicit in its ruling - the games that you own can be played on other systems using emulators and Sony doesn't get to have a say in it. >>You just don't have a right to enjoy theirs without paying the entry fee. No one said anything about playing games without paying for them. That's your own interpretation. >>Compare this to a Nintendo switch, it's a small game console for me to play Smash Bros and Advance Wars. It's a vastly more polished experience. Literally no one is making you get rid of your switch. Enjoy the system and the experiences on it.
afrcnc 5y ago
I stopped buying their crap years ago. No platform lock for me.
- avindroth 5y ago
  Don’t platform locks lead to better games?
vlunkr 5y ago
> The Steam deck doesn't just threaten the outdated hardware of the switch in terms of games and gaming performance, it threatens Nintendo's platform on its own turf. I really doubt it. - It doesn't include a dock or any external controller without paying more. This was the entire pitch for the Switch - It's more expensive and has worse battery life. Better graphics don't matter that much on a tiny screen. (Game Gear anyone?) - Valve has a bad track record for committing to their own hardware. Remember how everyone also thought SteamOS was going to be the big takeover and it barely even happened? - It runs linux. I run linux and love it, but running specific games, correctly interfacing with a variety of inputs and displays, it's just not going to be as smooth as a console with a dedicated OS. I'm guessing lots of people will install windows. - Their marketing is basically non-existent next to Nintendo. It's impressive how successful Steam is without really marketing, but that won't fly in the console space. Having a successful console launch is incredibly hard. Nintendo only manages it about half the time. - From what I've read, the emulation isn't perfect. Switch emulators even on desktop hardware can't necessarily handle every game well, why would the Steam Deck be able to?
- ekianjo 5y ago
  > - It doesn't include a dock or any external controller without paying more. This was the entire pitch for the Switch did you miss the fact that they now sell undockable Switch versions? > m guessing lots of people will install windows. You will be surprised. A lot of customization went in steamOS that wont be easily done on a windows build
- jbluepolarbear 5y ago
  Battery life is variable. Pokémon kills my switch in about 1.5 hours. It’s been shown that , depending on the setting, steam deck can rival switch in battery life. Playing a modern game at high settings and uncapped frame rate will kill your battery, but low settings and capping frame rate at 30fps will make the steam deck last much longer.
- TuringTest 5y ago
  > Valve has a bad track record for committing to their own hardware. Remember how everyone also thought SteamOS was going to be the big takeover and it barely even happened? You seem to be unaware that SteamOS was a a resounding success in its primary goal: to stop in its tracks Microsoft's plan to turn the Windows OS into a locked-down walled garden that would run only MS-approved software* (by threatening them to switch the majority of gamers to Linux). Microsoft has never attempted such thing again to the same extent, and even XBox games are largely PC compatible. That Valve has learned a lot about porting Windows games to Linux and they went through all the early labor pains, so that a few years later they have a robust and stable platform for their new competitive device, is just icing on the cake. * For a hint of this backstory, see https://www.pcworld.com/article/394953/why-does-the-steam-deck-run-linux-blame-windows.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/394953/why-does-the-steam-de... > it's just not going to be as smooth as a console with a dedicated OS. I'm guessing lots of people will install windows. This is a console with a dedicated OS (which just happens to be Windows retro-compatible, thanks to Valve's Proton layer). Given the success it looks set to have, publishers won't be able to afford not to optimize their future AAA games for the device.
epolanski 5y ago
Their brand exclusives are by far the most envied.
jmyeet 5y ago
I'm all for emulating systems that don't exist anymore. But this commenter's level of naive entitlement is beyond obnoxious. A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't. Switches are generally available and not that expensive. If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don't. And failing that if you want to just steal, then just steal. But what really rubs me the wrong way is when people who have chosen to steal start moralizing their position like they're standing up for some vague rights or principles. At least be honest about it. The hyporcrisy, intellectual dishonesty, bad faith arguments and self-delusion is in many ways worse than the theft.
- notyourwork 5y ago
  > If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don't. +1 I like hacking and tinkering with tech but these should not be socialized solutions for the masses. They are fun hobby projects, if you want the thing go buy it. The money supports the thing and is the reason it exists.
- dolni 5y ago
  > A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" This is an awful rule to live by. There are very few things in the world that _everyone_ would actually do.
  - Aethylia 5y ago
    While true, that isn't the point of the rule. The meaning is that _if_ everyone did what you do, what _would_ happen. The practi alities of that are irrelevant. It's really about asking yourself if your actions are sustainable or damaging by scaling them up.
    - dolni 5y ago
      Perhaps, in this instance, we should be asking the more pressing question of what will happen if we allow powerful corporations to suppress knowledge that they don't like.
evanextreme 5y ago
comparing the switch to the deck is akin to comparing a ps5 to a top of the line pc, in terms of both UX, time / effort required to run games, price, etc. consoles are _always_ underpowered and restricted in terms of graphical capabilities compared to computers, but the minimal amount of effort required, exclusive game library, and significantly lower price point (all of which the switch have over the deck) keep the market incredibly successful at least in north america. keep in mind, a lot of people like to play their switch connected to a television using the dock, a feature which will generally cost you an additional 150 bucks to play on the deck ($100 deck dock, $60 wireless bluetooth controller). not to say the deck isnt a fantastic product, i am absolutely getting one, but there's a reason the console market is still booming and hasnt eradicated the console market despite being the "superior platform". they fill separate needs
deleted 5y ago
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polished85 5y ago
If keeping the "how to" videos off the internet is their survival strategy, they've already lost. IMO this is not a threat to Nintendo, and those who want to emulate will figure it out no matter how many YouTube videos get taken down.
fxtentacle 5y ago
My company has access to special equipment under NDA, so I might be very biased. But my impression is that Nintendo is working super hard to keep game developers happy. And that includes working DRM. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's why you see so many games on Steam and so relatively few on Gog. And can you really fault studios who put in 100+ mio USD into financing a new game that they hate with a passion those people who play but don't pay? Nintendo has to act strongly against emulation, or else their game development partners will be upset. The other thing that I believe Nintendo is extremely concerned about is making things family safe. With an actual Switch, you can put it into kids mode, set a play timer, and safely hand it to your kid. That's also why they do not have a web browser. What did you expect would happen with a video showing DRM removal, software piracy, and the ability to mix in adult content?

0x500x79 5y ago

There should be more accountability for incorrect DMCAs. I see why Nintendo is doing this, but it is wrong. Nintendo is famous for reselling old games on each and every new platform they build and this takes away that revenue. According to a thread on Reddit this video only showed emulators and not ROMs. Pretty wild that there is no accountability for these actions.

deleted 5y ago
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TheDong 5y ago
> this video only showed emulators and not ROMs It is probably still in violation of the DMCA. The DMCA also makes illegal tools that are primarily intended for circumvention, which these emulators almost certainly are. But, even moreso, removals of videos on youtube are typically not done through the DMCA directly, but rather through a private extra-judicial system youtube manages (content-id et al). Of course youtube has the rights, as a private company, to remove videos for no reason. Of course Nintendo can request youtube to remove any video for any reasons, DMCA or not, with no legal issues. I doubt any DMCA, false or otherwise, has actually been issued in this case, and "accountability for incorrect DMCAs" would not help as a result.
- causality0 5y ago
  I can't speak for other countries but emulators are 100% legal in the United States.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- humanistbot 5y ago
  > It is probably still in violation of the DMCA. The DMCA also makes illegal tools that are primarily intended for circumvention, which these emulators almost certainly are. Nope. Emulators do not circumvent copy protection. When a ROM maker is extracting the game content from the original version, they are breaking copy protection. The ROM file they create and distribute does not have copy protection, so the emulator does not need to include copy protection circumvention. > But, even moreso, removals of videos on youtube are typically not done through the DMCA directly, but rather through a private extra-judicial system youtube manages (content-id et al). These are not, which is the point. Nintendo is doing this intentionally with their own DMCA takedowns. These aren't accidental false positives picked up by content id.

shmerl 5y ago

Someone is scared Switch got competition that can run Nintendo games that even Switch itself can't.

meibo 5y ago
Not really can't, moreso won't. It's embarrassing how small their retro games lineup is, so long after launch. And yet they're raking it in, because their extremely low quality online offering is so cheap that it doesn't matter to most.
causality0 5y ago
I wonder how the Steam Deck does with Switch games that run notoriously poorly, like Age of Calamity.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  That's perhaps the saddest part of this ordeal, the Deck struggles to keep framerates consistent in all but the easiest to run games. From what I've seen most games are playable, but there are often stutters and interruptions because of things like shader compilation that seem to make the whole experience quite frustrating. The other issue is that the manageable framerates only exist when the Deck is throwing everything it's got at the emulator. The advertised battery life of the Deck is shorter to begin with, and the chip constantly running at max power only makes that worse. I doubt anyone is going to buy a Deck instead of a Switch to run Switch games. Any fan seeing clear footage of game performance should realise that to play Switch games, you should really just get a Switch. By killing the videos, they're giving off the signal that they're afraid of emulators encroaching on their territory, which will only drive Deck sales.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  It wouldn't be any different than PC. the steam deck is essentially x86 squeezed into the format of a switch/gameboy/handheld_x
- tvb12 5y ago
  I'd be interested to know how it does with Breath of the Wild as well. Animal Crossing, too. We own both games, but the Switch's long load times hamper my fun. It's especially a problem in Animal Crossing. Last time I looked, it took an uncommonly powerful computer to emulate BoTW, but I haven't looked in a long time.

fermentation 5y ago

Nintendo has a history of being very anti-emulation (see https://www.nintendo.com.au/legal/information https://www.nintendo.com.au/legal/information). With their stance it's no wonder their own first-party emulators are so poorly made.

PebblesHD 5y ago
> Also, the limited right which the Copyright Act gives to make backup copies of computer programs does not apply to Nintendo video games. That seems like quite an assertion, largely untested in Australian courts I would assume, as our consumer watchdog is usually pretty good at ensuring we’re able to exercise what relatively few rights we do have in regards to purchased products.
- antifa 5y ago
  > does not apply to Nintendo video games Nintendo's opinion is obviously false and easily ignored.

joenathanone 5y ago

I wouldn't have known about this if not for the take down, now I am interested in purchasing a Steam Deck.

weberer 5y ago
You're going to be waiting in line for a long time.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  Still waiting for the 2019 Index to be actually in stock in Australia.
threeseed 5y ago
If people were showing you how to bypass Steam and download games for free do you really think Valve wouldn't use DCMA to have it removed ? Because I can't think of any business who would tolerate this.
- snvzz 5y ago
  False equivalence. These videos aren't showing how to download games for free.
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  Emulation, unlike software piracy, is not illegal.
- kevinh 5y ago
  I seriously doubt they would. Gabe Newell, Valve's owner, has talked about how piracy is a service problem. Steam is wildly successful even though most of the games on the service either have no DRM or Steam's easily cracked one. There's also a YT video from over a year ago with over 250k views with a title about pirating games, which I imagine would've gotten taken down if Valve cared since it references Steam specifically.
- Karsteski 5y ago

prvc 5y ago

What is the legal theory under which they are asserting ownership of such videos? Could this be avoided by excluding all footage of in-game cutscenes?

eezurr 5y ago

Nintendo really cares about the Nintendo experience, from their games all the way to the physical product people hold to experience them. And it shows. People talk about Nintendo as if a spell has been cast on them (much in the way Apple fans talk about Apple). If you look into how much Nintendo spends on R&D and compare it to their revenues, you'll see they are _really_ serious about R&D. It would be detrimental to their business to allow that experience to be watered down. There's nothing to be angry about. I dont think a product (at the scale and quality as Nintendo, Apple, etc) can exist in this world without it being in total control by the people who know how to create that experience. I'll happily pay more money to a company I trust to deliver quality (and fewer, polished options), much like people love Apple because it removes so many choices from people's lexicon. Perhaps (I'll hesitantly say young) people don't realize that with freedom comes the more choices. And with more choices, you spend less time enjoying the product. You're a different market. You have time to research the hundreds of different flavors of Linux (as an example). There's nothing wrong with that; just be aware of what you're buying and dont complain when they aren't catering to your needs.

munchbunny 5y ago
I disagree with the "young" part, to the extent that plenty of young people who are not power users understand this tradeoff viscerally just as much as older people do. The main difference I see is that people who are of working age tend to be more willing to pay money/a premium for someone to remove the need to make those choices.
- enos_feedler 5y ago
  Also I would actually say that older folks that have been around for the more open systems when the web was flourishing have a bias for things to always be this way, even if it was transient. Younger people who experience more locked down things throughout their existence come to expect it. So not sure about the young vs old
corndoge 5y ago
Corporate censorship is unacceptable

oversocialized 5y ago

genewitch 5y ago

As someone who has the Steam Link, a PSTV (the old one), and a switch, the switch is the only one with anything approaching "turn it on and play a game". I only play the switch 'docked', on a large screen. The steam controller is, in my opinion, a really poor control device. The switch pro controller at least does normal controller-like things - although i think it's too small. The PSTV generally has issues with updates or connectivity, but when it works it's roughly the same quality on my 720p projector as the switch and the steam link. And there's the answer to "why not just play the Playstation directly?" - in order to get sound that's synchronized with the screen, you need a way to get the video from the sound bar area where the playstation lives to the projector, which is a dozen feet away, on the ceiling. With the switch, the dock is next to the projector, and bluetooth sends audio fast enough for 99% of switch games. Steam link has built in BT as well. Sony doesn't. long range HDMI cables cost more than the PSTV did, so there's all the answers anyone could want. When, once or twice a month i want to sit on the most comfortable chair in my house and play a game, it's the switch. I also try my best to only buy games with cartridges unless there's a serious sale and i have a gift card.

dcchambers 5y ago

I am not going to blatantly support piracy of video games (Most of us work in the software industry, and most of us want to get paid for our work. Video games should be no different.), but I think it's clear that game preservation has some issues in its current state, and Nintendo is one of the worst offenders. Nintendo is a lot like Apple in this way. They see things in one way, and assume all consumers will happily conform to that standard. They are stubborn and perhaps less willing to listen to the consumer than any other major video game company. And we all know that gamers are some of the most vocal, opinionated fans out there. In my opinion, if you own a game (digitally or physically), there are absolutely zero moral qualms, and there should be zero legal issues, with playing a copy of that game on an emulator. Emulation is 100% legal and should be encouraged. ESPECIALLY because Nintendo makes it such a challenge to legally acquire old games, I understand why people turn to piracy and emulators. I think Nintendo is within their rights to not want people showing videos of how to explicitly download pirated games and emulate them, but I don't see any way they can prevent people from simply showing an emulated game.

asimops 5y ago
But where do you still find games that you own? You might be lucky enought to still own a physical media but the game is still only licensed to you. What if the licensor decides that the media will burn the first account it is used with into some efuses? No more selling that cart. You can be f*cked with every minute. Or just a hypothetical example: you bought a cool sandbox game in alpha and then some years later, some big IT corp comes around and requires that you now have to use their account system, hand over your data and agree to being tracked.
- _michaelll 5y ago
  Shit, thanks for reminding me I have migrate before they lock me out
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
> In my opinion, if you own a game (digitally or physically), there are absolutely zero moral qualms, and there should be zero legal issues, with playing a copy of that game on an emulator. I agree. However—What percentage of the people who visit a Switch rom site, and are scrolling through the list of games, think "oh, that game looks interesting, but I don't own it. I won't download that one. Maybe I'll buy an eShop code off Amazon, and then come back and download it." I've been that person. I'd hazard a guess that people like me make up 0.1% of users, at most. And I'm being generous. There's a problem here. Possibly one with no solution; I don't know the right thing to do. But, I certainly don't fault Nintendo for their hostility towards emulators.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

This is why peertube and other are so important. Despite all the garbage hate stuff on there, just ignore the loonies and look for the good stuff.

chaostheory 5y ago

It's hard to defend what Nintendo is doing because no one can actually buy old NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, and Wii titles online legally.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Mario-Galaxy-Marketplace-Brands-Nintendo-Wii-Refurbished/757842271 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Mario-Galaxy-Marketplace-Br... I realize that's not a digital download, but these titles were never offered as digital downloads, and Nintendo isn't obligated to use the exact format which suits your needs. (And while Nintendo isn't directly profiting from used sales, high prices on the secondary market make their new games seem like good investments.) (If we were talking about WiiWare exclusively, I'd have a very different attitude.)
- chaostheory 5y ago
  > I realize that's not a digital download, but these titles were never offered as digital download That's not a good excuse. > Nintendo isn't obligated to use the exact format which suits your needs You're right. They're just providing a really good argument for the continuation of mass piracy of their products.
avindroth 5y ago
Why is Nintendo obliged to provide older content, or otherwise allow emulation? If a company ceases to provide something, does that give you rights to acquire that something illegally?
- chaostheory 5y ago
  It doesn't give anyone the rights to anything. What it does though is provide a massive incentive for piracy. While I don't pirate myself, I can see many rational people do it for Nintendo products, and I don't have a good argument against it.
- EMIRELADERO 5y ago

ectospheno 5y ago

Everyone on HN when someone isn’t paying them for their product : “How dare they, everyone be mad at them with me.” Everyone on HN when something they don’t want to pay for does the same thing: “How dare they, everyone be be mad at them with me.”

bdowling 5y ago

This isn't only a copyright issue. Nintendo can also complain that these videos create a likelihood of confusion regarding an association between Nintendo and Steam Deck. That's a trademark issue, not copyright. Before you say, "No reasonable person would believe that Switch games running on Steam Deck are authorized by Nintendo," that's an argument that you raise when you are sued for trademark infringement. No one wants that, so they take the videos down.

shirro 5y ago

Nintendo have the right to protect their IP and revenue. They have made some iconic games and characters that I would argue are as culturely significant as anything made by Disney. I would like them to be able to keep funding creative people. However their revenues almost entirely comes from the new and not the old. Games don't go into syndication and get tv reruns. They are kept alive by the emulation community and I would argue it builds support for Nintendo's IP rather than do them damage. I have a kid whose first exposure to Metroid was Metroid Dread which he loved. We have a Wii but it is struggling a bit and he is playing through the Prime trilogy on Dolphin. No question he is going to go nuts when Nintendo release Prime 4. Cheap marketing. I have been tempted to rip our Switch games to run on Yuzu but to be honest the Switch (we have 3 in the house) is just an ideal platform for these games and playing on a PC is going to be a worse experience in almost every way. The story is very different with older platforms. These will be history soon without emulation.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
> However their revenues almost entirely comes from the new and not the old. Games don't go into syndication and get tv reruns. They are kept alive by the emulation community and I would argue it builds support for Nintendo's IP rather than do them damage. Note that in this case, we're talking about a Switch emulator. > Playing on a PC is going to be a worse experience in almost every way. I mean, not necessarily. I would argue that Breath of the Wild is already a better experience on a powerful PC (not necessarily a Steam Deck), once everything is set up. You can play in 4K and 60 fps with a long draw distance. --- I wish there was an easy, accessible way to rip legitimate cartridges for emulation. The problem is that no reasonable person is ever going to buy a game to play it in an emulator, because it requires an order of magnitude more work than downloading the game for free. (The only exception I can think of is the PS2; PCSX2 can play PS2 games directly from a standard optical drive, and was released in an era when such drives were standard.)
- Nursie 5y ago
  > The only exception I can think of is the PS2; PCSX2 can play PS2 games directly from a standard optical drive I'm not sure of anything else directly as easy, but both the PSP and Wii could be made to rip their own disks, with the appropriate firmware installed, and some PC DVD drives were apparently Wii-disc compatible, but not all. As you say though, it's extra work even then. I think I would probably buy the game and then download from an internet source, if I wanted to emulate but stay honest.

danShumway 5y ago

There's a really surprising amount of confusion in these comments about how copyright (at least in the US) works. More confusion than I expected to see on a site like Hackernews. Emulators are legal, including emulators for current-gen systems. Switch emulation is exactly as legal as Gameboy emulation. You can argue current-gen emulators are irresponsible, you can say they're mostly used for piracy, but Nintendo doesn't have a right to stop people from talking about emulators. Taking down videos that talk about emulators is not Nintendo protecting its IP, it is an abuse of the DMCA or other non-DMCA tools in Youtube to shut down conversation that Nintendo has no legal right to shut down. Nintendo does not have the legal right to demand people not talk about emulators or share how they work, that's not a right that IP law grants. To say that they're protecting their IP is just false, they're claiming IP rights that they don't have. Of course in this scenario, no one is going to challenge these takedowns because no one wants to get sued, and the stakes are ultimately unbelievably low. But a video about how to install an emulator is probably not copyright infringement, and (IANAL), I would be very surprised to see Nintendo get a positive ruling if they actually sued someone over showing how to install an emulator on a computer. Again, IANAL, but I'm not even sure you would claim fair use in a case like this. Fair use is a defense for violating copyright, and emulators don't violate copyright. Discussions about the morality of emulation and the proliferation of piracy are fine, this can be a complicated subject with moral ramifications. But legally speaking, at least in the US, emulators are not piracy and talking about them is not copyright infringement.

lrae 5y ago
> More confusion than I expected to see on a site like Hackernews. Kinda funny, because... you're here claiming that Nintendo is (likely) doing something illegal here and are adding to the confusion. The thing is, the removals that are in the press right now, especially the Steam Deck one, had gameplay in them... and as far as I know and understand US law and its current interpretation, Nintendo is likely well within its rights to DMCA gameplay.
- ThrustVectoring 5y ago
  The problem is using the process of threatening legal action to suppress speech. This is the very problem that anti-SLAPP statutes are designed to protect against; if they're ineffective in this case, they should be amended to explicitly cover DMCA notices in a way that dissuades using them to suppress speech. For what it's worth, using a brief clip of an emulated Switch game seems to me to clearly fall under Fair Use. It's transformative and does not substitute for the original work, often non-profit and/or educational, is a small portion of the copyrighted work, and fails to displace any sales.

papa2034 5y ago

Valve should put some effort on preventing emulation on this device. It’s going to hurt them as well.

Shadonototra 5y ago

Wtf is that title, they remove nothing, Google remove videos Where is dang yo? This adoration for japanese companies is dangerous, the west really want to go extinct

3np 5y ago

Nintendo didn’t remove anything. YouTube removed them after Nintendo asked them to. Yes, I understand how DMCA tends to work but nobody other than YouTube can effectively remove videos. (Obvious you most readers here I assume but it’s not just a headline issue - the same framing appears in TFA)

advael 5y ago

I'm honestly feeling like my perspective must be bubbled somehow. Can anyone point to an example of the DMCA doing anything that isn't just snuffing out the efforts of small communities or individuals in service of some megacorp's imagined potential extortion profits?

pipeline_peak 5y ago

It’s almost like they don’t want users playing their exclusive titles on a competing, similar product. How dare they

SLWW 5y ago

This was finally the article to get me to buy the Steam Deck, since if i can do switch emulation... I'm sure I can get it to emulate most everything else I would want it for (legacy stuff, you feel me?), and that's all i really want :)

throw_m239339 5y ago

Nintendo is removing nothing on Youtube. It's Youtube who is removing content at Nintendo's request. Subtle but important difference. You can be mad at Nintendo, but you should then also be mad at Google the exact same way.

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