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It's because USA knows the nuclear power of Russia that both countries doesn't go in conflict directly. It seems strange, but because you can nuke me, and i ca

It's because USA knows the nuclear power of Russia that both countries doesn't go in conflict directly. It seems strange, but because you can nuke me, and i can nuke you, we need to live peacefully for good or for worse. I know that Ukraine is in a bad situation, but you think this would happen if Ukraine had nuclear power? Actually, the United States wanted Ukraine to give up on their nuclear weapons. Actually because nations have the power to destroy humanity multiple times with their arsenal we live in a more peaceful world (although there are multiple wars, none of them compare to WW2 or WW1, there's a good video from Kurzgesagt on that topic.)

aaronbrethorst 5y ago
Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons because they gave them back to Russia in exchange for guarantees about their territorial sovereignty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Didn’t other countries say they’d have ukraines back if something like this happen though?
  - jerlam 5y ago
    The wording is more akin to "we won't attack", not "we will defend". Two of the signatories are Russia and Belarus.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    Yes, the US and the UK promised to protect Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for disarmament. (we didn't) Edit: just look it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances#Content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      No, they promised to respect it. That's a very significant difference. Nothing in that document obliges the US or UK to intervene. It obliges them to go to the Security Council (done; Russia vetoed). They've gone beyond their obligations by providing arms and sanctions.
andy_ppp 5y ago
This is true until suddenly it isn’t…
chiefalchemist 5y ago
That's know as MAD: Mutual Assured Destruction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction
frobozz 5y ago
MAD is the same concept as "an armed society is a polite society" I don't like either idea. Being civil to one another simply because the other party might respond with incredibly disproportionate violence is not a civilised way to live.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Disarming and then getting rolled when your counterparty takes advantage isn't a civilized way to live. See: Ukraine.
- mgfist 5y ago
  They're quite different actually. A gun does not guarantee MAD. Hence why the invention of firearms did not end wars. If I had a gun and you had a gun, I can kill you with said gun before you fire your weapon. That's not the case with nukes. With nukes, I see that you've fired yours, so I will fire mine. And due to the amount of nukes owned by the world, we know that said firing of all nukes will lead to the destruction of most if not all life on earth. > Being civil to one another simply because the other party might respond with incredibly disproportionate violence is not a civilised way to live Nature doesn't care about civility. Don't let the means get in the way of results. The world has been much more peaceful since the invention of nuclear weapons. In any case, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. We have no choice but to live with it.
- flyinglizard 5y ago
  What we call "civilization" is always founded on a threat of using force. Even in a primitive tribal society with nothing but spears, you keep in line with the tribe for fear of retaliation.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  But we cannot be blind to the reality that there are people who only behave because of coercion.
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  What is the alternative? If I have a gun and you aren't armed, your only hope for a peaceful life is that I choose to leave you alone. If I choose to enslave you, abuse you, or kill you, what could you reasonably do about it at that point? Nuclear weapons are the same. It would be irresponsible to disarm fully while you have enemies that seek to take advantage of you. Making appeals to what is "civilized" or not is just fluff, it means nothing. At one point in "civilized" society people would duel to the death over insults.
rootusrootus 5y ago
AFAIK, Ukraine never had nuclear weapons as a practical matter. They were always under the control of the Russian military. Edit: More specifically, under the control of the Kremlin. Assuming they have properly implemented nuclear codes that are non-trivial to circumvent. Given the US's track record on that, I'd be nervous.
- rhino369 5y ago
  I believe they had physical control but no launch codes.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  There wasn't really any clear legal status to them; the unit of the USSR military that was responsible for them wound up in the Ukranian armed forces after the split, as did quite a bit of other material. Thus, the agreement. They could have, at the very least, used them as raw disasembled nuclear material for their own program, if they had wanted. As the recording industry discovered, once your stuff is in someone else's physical posession, it's hard to stop them from figuring out how it works.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    The issue is by that time they'd have been overrun by both the Russians and the US.
junon 5y ago
That's know as MAD and only works when your enemy's button pusher is a sane individual. There is less and less confidence that Putin sane.
- croes 5y ago
  It works best if both are insane but fear death. A reasonable actor wouldn't counter attack a first strike because annihilation of mankind is not an option.
  - jakear 5y ago
    Not entirely factious: why not? Life would go on. Not human life sure, but it’s not like we’re the ultimate shepherds of the planet and it would be a valueless rock without us. If the options are: yield the planet over to some nuclear hardened species to chill out and recover for a few hundred thousand years while other novel (radiation hardened) lifeforms develop, or yield the planet over to the people who have demonstrated willingness to absolutely obliterate their enemies and will likely continue initiating mass extinction events far into the future… I certainly don’t think one option is 100% off the table. Interestingly, those radiation hardened life forms might actually be better suited to be earth-seed than us — space is an unfriendly environment for human kind, making us ill suited to be the planet’s intergalactic ambassadors. (Now I want to read some sci fi book where it turns out all the intergalactic species come from planets where the original intelligent inhabitants blew themselves to smithereens and created a nuclear winter, causing the next intelligence to develop a deep rooted desire for world peace and scientific exploration…)
  - staticman2 5y ago
    We're all going to die someday so I would certainly be fine with shooting back. If you are christian you believe mankind lives on in a happy afterlife event, nobody really dies. So no biggie if you shoot back. If you are atheist, it's not clear why you should care about the continued existence of a species evil enough to murder your friends and family. Seeking justice for them makes more sense. At any rate it's not reasonable for an atheist to believe our species would live forever. We were going to eventually die anyway.
runarberg 5y ago
You might be asking the wrong question. You could instead be asking: “Do you think this would happen if Russia wouldn’t have Nuclear Weapons?” Deterrence works both ways. If it really deters a military action against you, then perhaps you can be the aggressor and be safe from retaliation as long as you threaten your nukes.
jerlam 5y ago
The counterpoint of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) is that nuclear-armed countries are more free to start minor wars with non nuclear-armed countries, confident that there won't be direct intervention by other nuclear-armed countries. These wars become proxy wars between the nuclear powers. It's referred to as the Stability-instability paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability%E2%80%93instability_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability%E2%80%93instability_...

aaronbrethorst 5y ago

Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons because they gave them back to Russia in exchange for guarantees about their territorial sovereignty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...

endisneigh 5y ago
Didn’t other countries say they’d have ukraines back if something like this happen though?
- jerlam 5y ago
  The wording is more akin to "we won't attack", not "we will defend". Two of the signatories are Russia and Belarus.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Yes, the US and the UK promised to protect Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for disarmament. (we didn't) Edit: just look it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances#Content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    No, they promised to respect it. That's a very significant difference. Nothing in that document obliges the US or UK to intervene. It obliges them to go to the Security Council (done; Russia vetoed). They've gone beyond their obligations by providing arms and sanctions.

andy_ppp 5y ago

This is true until suddenly it isn’t…

chiefalchemist 5y ago

That's know as MAD: Mutual Assured Destruction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

frobozz 5y ago

MAD is the same concept as "an armed society is a polite society" I don't like either idea. Being civil to one another simply because the other party might respond with incredibly disproportionate violence is not a civilised way to live.

jjoonathan 5y ago
Disarming and then getting rolled when your counterparty takes advantage isn't a civilized way to live. See: Ukraine.
mgfist 5y ago
They're quite different actually. A gun does not guarantee MAD. Hence why the invention of firearms did not end wars. If I had a gun and you had a gun, I can kill you with said gun before you fire your weapon. That's not the case with nukes. With nukes, I see that you've fired yours, so I will fire mine. And due to the amount of nukes owned by the world, we know that said firing of all nukes will lead to the destruction of most if not all life on earth. > Being civil to one another simply because the other party might respond with incredibly disproportionate violence is not a civilised way to live Nature doesn't care about civility. Don't let the means get in the way of results. The world has been much more peaceful since the invention of nuclear weapons. In any case, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. We have no choice but to live with it.
flyinglizard 5y ago
What we call "civilization" is always founded on a threat of using force. Even in a primitive tribal society with nothing but spears, you keep in line with the tribe for fear of retaliation.
MattGaiser 5y ago
But we cannot be blind to the reality that there are people who only behave because of coercion.
bluefirebrand 5y ago
What is the alternative? If I have a gun and you aren't armed, your only hope for a peaceful life is that I choose to leave you alone. If I choose to enslave you, abuse you, or kill you, what could you reasonably do about it at that point? Nuclear weapons are the same. It would be irresponsible to disarm fully while you have enemies that seek to take advantage of you. Making appeals to what is "civilized" or not is just fluff, it means nothing. At one point in "civilized" society people would duel to the death over insults.

rootusrootus 5y ago

AFAIK, Ukraine never had nuclear weapons as a practical matter. They were always under the control of the Russian military. Edit: More specifically, under the control of the Kremlin. Assuming they have properly implemented nuclear codes that are non-trivial to circumvent. Given the US's track record on that, I'd be nervous.

rhino369 5y ago
I believe they had physical control but no launch codes.
ceejayoz 5y ago
There wasn't really any clear legal status to them; the unit of the USSR military that was responsible for them wound up in the Ukranian armed forces after the split, as did quite a bit of other material. Thus, the agreement. They could have, at the very least, used them as raw disasembled nuclear material for their own program, if they had wanted. As the recording industry discovered, once your stuff is in someone else's physical posession, it's hard to stop them from figuring out how it works.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  The issue is by that time they'd have been overrun by both the Russians and the US.

junon 5y ago

That's know as MAD and only works when your enemy's button pusher is a sane individual. There is less and less confidence that Putin sane.

croes 5y ago
It works best if both are insane but fear death. A reasonable actor wouldn't counter attack a first strike because annihilation of mankind is not an option.
- jakear 5y ago
  Not entirely factious: why not? Life would go on. Not human life sure, but it’s not like we’re the ultimate shepherds of the planet and it would be a valueless rock without us. If the options are: yield the planet over to some nuclear hardened species to chill out and recover for a few hundred thousand years while other novel (radiation hardened) lifeforms develop, or yield the planet over to the people who have demonstrated willingness to absolutely obliterate their enemies and will likely continue initiating mass extinction events far into the future… I certainly don’t think one option is 100% off the table. Interestingly, those radiation hardened life forms might actually be better suited to be earth-seed than us — space is an unfriendly environment for human kind, making us ill suited to be the planet’s intergalactic ambassadors. (Now I want to read some sci fi book where it turns out all the intergalactic species come from planets where the original intelligent inhabitants blew themselves to smithereens and created a nuclear winter, causing the next intelligence to develop a deep rooted desire for world peace and scientific exploration…)
- staticman2 5y ago
  We're all going to die someday so I would certainly be fine with shooting back. If you are christian you believe mankind lives on in a happy afterlife event, nobody really dies. So no biggie if you shoot back. If you are atheist, it's not clear why you should care about the continued existence of a species evil enough to murder your friends and family. Seeking justice for them makes more sense. At any rate it's not reasonable for an atheist to believe our species would live forever. We were going to eventually die anyway.

runarberg 5y ago

You might be asking the wrong question. You could instead be asking: “Do you think this would happen if Russia wouldn’t have Nuclear Weapons?” Deterrence works both ways. If it really deters a military action against you, then perhaps you can be the aggressor and be safe from retaliation as long as you threaten your nukes.

jerlam 5y ago

The counterpoint of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) is that nuclear-armed countries are more free to start minor wars with non nuclear-armed countries, confident that there won't be direct intervention by other nuclear-armed countries. These wars become proxy wars between the nuclear powers. It's referred to as the Stability-instability paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability%E2%80%93instability_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability%E2%80%93instability_...