4 ms·

They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.

by jstx1 5y ago

lordnacho 5y ago
Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. There's no way around it, we all already know where they are from, regardless of what they think of the war.
- jstx1 5y ago
  > Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. Yeah because they're from Russia. I just don't see how "people will think" is enough of a reason to ban them from playing an event. (1) Some deranged person running Russia decided to invade Ukraine, kill innocent people and ruin millions of lives. (2) A chess organization in Norway bans a player because they were born in the same country as the deranged person from above. I don't get how (2) is an appropriate response to (1) or how it helps anyone. It's not a deterrent, it's not any kind of response - nobody in the Russian government will feel the tiniest bit of pressure because of it, it's such a token act that it's laughable to think about in the context of what's happening in Ukraine. At the same time it's a big deal to the handful of players it affects. All this does is create publicity and make the careers of a few people significantly worse just because they happened to be born in the wrong country.
  - cutemonster 5y ago
    I wonder if this will also push some people closer to Russia and Putin -- if they're not welcome in Europe, then, what's left for them?
- throw10920 5y ago
  > Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Citation needed. If I see someone playing chess, or any game for that matter, then I assume they represent the flag that they're playing under is what the represent. If I see someone playing under a non-Russian flag, it doesn't matter how Russian their name sounds - I don't consider them to be representing Russia in any capacity - they could have been born in India, a French citizen, ethnically Ethiopian, and just given that name by their parents, for all I know. (and, if I look into them further, and discover that they're a Russian citizen and they're intentionally not playing under a Russian flag, there's no way I'll think that they're representing Russia) Please find me examples of people who do not believe this, because the idea that "Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though" is both deeply weird and completely illogical to me, and I've never met someone who agrees with it.
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    You gotta be kidding me. The winter Olympics just ended. Who did you think Valieva was skating for? Herself? There's a huge team behind each competitor and they're based around nations. What about the ice hockey team? Bunch of neutrals who happened to have a history of playing together, having grown up in Russia, and got to the final? Totally disingenuous to not call them the Russian team, and nobody thought otherwise either. At some point you have to common sense and admit the whole neutral flag thing is just a convenient way for the IOC to avoid some tough decisions.
    - cutemonster 5y ago
      To me, chess is primarily an individual game, and I was mildly surprised that so many here think about it as a country thing. Magnus Carlsen the individual, not Norway, is best in the world. Norway is just one mildly interesting data point about him. In my mind. In the Olympics -- yes then I understand, then it's one player per country. So disallow, then. But there's so many other chess competitions. Comparing with ice hockey doesn't make sense to me.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  >Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though not really, in chess at least. Playing under the FIDE flag is pretty common when geopolitical tensions are involved, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_flag_player https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_flag_player Israeli players playing under the FIDE flag at UAE tournaments has happened as well. There's plenty of precedent for it.
gpm 5y ago
To add to this, it seems like chess players semi-frequently change what flag they play under, and can play under no flag at all. Alireza Firouzja (world #2) for instance originally played under the Iranian flag, played under no flag for a year and a half, and now plays under the French flag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja
- orwin 5y ago
  Firouzja is now French. He did the right thing. Alexander Grishuk should be able too, i'm pretty sure the Ukrainian government would be thrilled to give him a passport, even for free and without the usual administrative red tape.
cool_dude85 5y ago
As I recall, this is what happened to Nepo during the recent World Chess Championship anyway due to the doping scandal.

They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.

by jstx1 5y ago

They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.

lordnacho 5y ago

Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. There's no way around it, we all already know where they are from, regardless of what they think of the war.

jstx1 5y ago
> Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. Yeah because they're from Russia. I just don't see how "people will think" is enough of a reason to ban them from playing an event. (1) Some deranged person running Russia decided to invade Ukraine, kill innocent people and ruin millions of lives. (2) A chess organization in Norway bans a player because they were born in the same country as the deranged person from above. I don't get how (2) is an appropriate response to (1) or how it helps anyone. It's not a deterrent, it's not any kind of response - nobody in the Russian government will feel the tiniest bit of pressure because of it, it's such a token act that it's laughable to think about in the context of what's happening in Ukraine. At the same time it's a big deal to the handful of players it affects. All this does is create publicity and make the careers of a few people significantly worse just because they happened to be born in the wrong country.
- cutemonster 5y ago
  I wonder if this will also push some people closer to Russia and Putin -- if they're not welcome in Europe, then, what's left for them?
throw10920 5y ago
> Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Citation needed. If I see someone playing chess, or any game for that matter, then I assume they represent the flag that they're playing under is what the represent. If I see someone playing under a non-Russian flag, it doesn't matter how Russian their name sounds - I don't consider them to be representing Russia in any capacity - they could have been born in India, a French citizen, ethnically Ethiopian, and just given that name by their parents, for all I know. (and, if I look into them further, and discover that they're a Russian citizen and they're intentionally not playing under a Russian flag, there's no way I'll think that they're representing Russia) Please find me examples of people who do not believe this, because the idea that "Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though" is both deeply weird and completely illogical to me, and I've never met someone who agrees with it.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  You gotta be kidding me. The winter Olympics just ended. Who did you think Valieva was skating for? Herself? There's a huge team behind each competitor and they're based around nations. What about the ice hockey team? Bunch of neutrals who happened to have a history of playing together, having grown up in Russia, and got to the final? Totally disingenuous to not call them the Russian team, and nobody thought otherwise either. At some point you have to common sense and admit the whole neutral flag thing is just a convenient way for the IOC to avoid some tough decisions.
  - cutemonster 5y ago
    To me, chess is primarily an individual game, and I was mildly surprised that so many here think about it as a country thing. Magnus Carlsen the individual, not Norway, is best in the world. Norway is just one mildly interesting data point about him. In my mind. In the Olympics -- yes then I understand, then it's one player per country. So disallow, then. But there's so many other chess competitions. Comparing with ice hockey doesn't make sense to me.
Barrin92 5y ago
>Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though not really, in chess at least. Playing under the FIDE flag is pretty common when geopolitical tensions are involved, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_flag_player https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_flag_player Israeli players playing under the FIDE flag at UAE tournaments has happened as well. There's plenty of precedent for it.

gpm 5y ago

To add to this, it seems like chess players semi-frequently change what flag they play under, and can play under no flag at all. Alireza Firouzja (world #2) for instance originally played under the Iranian flag, played under no flag for a year and a half, and now plays under the French flag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja

orwin 5y ago
Firouzja is now French. He did the right thing. Alexander Grishuk should be able too, i'm pretty sure the Ukrainian government would be thrilled to give him a passport, even for free and without the usual administrative red tape.

cool_dude85 5y ago

As I recall, this is what happened to Nepo during the recent World Chess Championship anyway due to the doping scandal.