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It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the poli

It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the political views of every single participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin? Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.

jstx1 5y ago
They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. There's no way around it, we all already know where they are from, regardless of what they think of the war.
  - jstx1 5y ago
    > Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. Yeah because they're from Russia. I just don't see how "people will think" is enough of a reason to ban them from playing an event. (1) Some deranged person running Russia decided to invade Ukraine, kill innocent people and ruin millions of lives. (2) A chess organization in Norway bans a player because they were born in the same country as the deranged person from above. I don't get how (2) is an appropriate response to (1) or how it helps anyone. It's not a deterrent, it's not any kind of response - nobody in the Russian government will feel the tiniest bit of pressure because of it, it's such a token act that it's laughable to think about in the context of what's happening in Ukraine. At the same time it's a big deal to the handful of players it affects. All this does is create publicity and make the careers of a few people significantly worse just because they happened to be born in the wrong country.
    - cutemonster 5y ago
      I wonder if this will also push some people closer to Russia and Putin -- if they're not welcome in Europe, then, what's left for them?
  - throw10920 5y ago
    > Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Citation needed. If I see someone playing chess, or any game for that matter, then I assume they represent the flag that they're playing under is what the represent. If I see someone playing under a non-Russian flag, it doesn't matter how Russian their name sounds - I don't consider them to be representing Russia in any capacity - they could have been born in India, a French citizen, ethnically Ethiopian, and just given that name by their parents, for all I know. (and, if I look into them further, and discover that they're a Russian citizen and they're intentionally not playing under a Russian flag, there's no way I'll think that they're representing Russia) Please find me examples of people who do not believe this, because the idea that "Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though" is both deeply weird and completely illogical to me, and I've never met someone who agrees with it.
    - lordnacho 5y ago
      You gotta be kidding me. The winter Olympics just ended. Who did you think Valieva was skating for? Herself? There's a huge team behind each competitor and they're based around nations. What about the ice hockey team? Bunch of neutrals who happened to have a history of playing together, having grown up in Russia, and got to the final? Totally disingenuous to not call them the Russian team, and nobody thought otherwise either. At some point you have to common sense and admit the whole neutral flag thing is just a convenient way for the IOC to avoid some tough decisions.
      - cutemonster 5y ago
        To me, chess is primarily an individual game, and I was mildly surprised that so many here think about it as a country thing. Magnus Carlsen the individual, not Norway, is best in the world. Norway is just one mildly interesting data point about him. In my mind. In the Olympics -- yes then I understand, then it's one player per country. So disallow, then. But there's so many other chess competitions. Comparing with ice hockey doesn't make sense to me.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    >Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though not really, in chess at least. Playing under the FIDE flag is pretty common when geopolitical tensions are involved, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_flag_player https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_flag_player Israeli players playing under the FIDE flag at UAE tournaments has happened as well. There's plenty of precedent for it.
- gpm 5y ago
  To add to this, it seems like chess players semi-frequently change what flag they play under, and can play under no flag at all. Alireza Firouzja (world #2) for instance originally played under the Iranian flag, played under no flag for a year and a half, and now plays under the French flag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja
  - orwin 5y ago
    Firouzja is now French. He did the right thing. Alexander Grishuk should be able too, i'm pretty sure the Ukrainian government would be thrilled to give him a passport, even for free and without the usual administrative red tape.
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  As I recall, this is what happened to Nepo during the recent World Chess Championship anyway due to the doping scandal.
endisneigh 5y ago
If that were actually the issue they’d be allowed to play, but not on behalf of Russia. Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? If actions have to be taken, which ones? If actions can be taken to allow them to participate then in a sense is that saying the actions are sufficient to compensate for the senseless killing of Ukrainians? If no time or actions can be taken then are we ok with indefinitely ostracizing a group of people? What of their children? Earth has already been down that road, it’s not really great. Best to just punish those who directly contributed to the things with disagree with.
- Miner49er 5y ago
  > Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? I think the idea in this case is that since many Ukranians can't play, Russians shouldn't be able to either. So I would think the sanctions would end when Ukraine isn't fighting anymore, and can participate again. That's at least the IOC's stance. [0] [0] https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participa...
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    But no Ukrainian was banned from playing? Were any even invited?
    - ladon86 5y ago
      You're right! The only fair solution is to drop Grischuk in central Kyiv; if he survives the journey to Norway and arrives on time, he should be allowed to play.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        Not every Ukrainian is located in Kyiv. There are Ukrainians living abroad, that have left Ukraine, and have the ability to leave Ukraine. Why is the standard an imaginary Ukrainian grandmaster currently trapped or engaged in fighting? Perhaps they should cancel it for everyone because this imaginary person can't make it. After all it is also unfair that people can travel from Germany and the US while the imaginary Ukrainian can't.
ZoomZoomZoom 5y ago
> the person is representing Russia It's not a team sport. One would think chess players represent themselves.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
  Most sports are not team sports, yet sportsmen represent their countries.
  - StanislavPetrov 5y ago
    No, that is only true in an event such as the Olympics where the team is officially sanctioned and determined by their country. A random individual does not represent their country whether they are playing a sport, working a job, or doing anything else - they represent themselves.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
The is position that a person with Russian citizen cannot represent themselves and will always be representing the country is bankrupt. Invitations are based on personal performance, not allocated based on national identity like the Olympics. Should us companies fire workers with Russian citizenship or ties?
dmitrygr 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
RustyBucket 5y ago
This is how you step on a path of a genocide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)
- goto11 5y ago
  Allowing a dictator to invade a neighboring country which he don't think had a right to exist, is how you end up with genocide.
  - ZainRiz 5y ago
    Are you claiming Alexander Grischuk allowed Russia to invade Ukraine? (something he's been openly critical of?) How much more critical have you been of your own country invading other nations?
    - goto11 5y ago
      > Are you claiming Alexander Grischuk allowed Russia to invade Ukraine? The purpose of the cultural sanctions is not to punish the individual sportsmen or artist or change their opinions, the purpose is to undermine the popular support for the war and the Putin-regime. The Putin regime have used sports as a point of national pride in order to strengthen popular support. So it stands to reason that excluding Russia from sports would weaken the regime in some degree. Apparently many Russians are not even aware they are involved in a war due to the massive propaganda and censorship. Maybe Russia getting excluded from all sports event might at least get them to ask some questions about what is going on?
- trhway 5y ago
  Genocide and ethnic cleansing is already in full swing. Too late for "step on a path". As a Russian immigrant in US, i support kicking out from US or any other country any Russian who wouldn't condemn in straight clear words Putin's fascist regime and the genocide it conducts in Ukraine. Anything less is just a support of what is going on. For any public figure it is doubly so. Grischuk didn't even use the word "war" in order to not have issues with Russian government. Well, it is a war and one can't be on good terms with all the sides simultaneously, and there is no neutrality when it comes to genocide and ethnic cleansing. Ukrainian civilians get killed being intentionally bombed in their homes just for being Ukrainians (it is called genocide), Ukrainian women and children are running for their lives to Poland (as their lives are in danger just for them being Ukrainians, and such ethnicity based forced displacement constitutes ethnic cleansing), with some walking tens of kilometers in cold winter, and even some women giving birth in-route. If you don't take their side then you really should be kicked out of the civilized world.
random314 5y ago
Iran does the same thing with Israeli chess players which it considers an apartheid occupation of Palestine. I would love to hear your views on it.
cyanydeez 5y ago
ritht,n and do people really think governments should be independent of their citizenship? you are right, this is sending a message, but its a deeply philosophical message.
nigerian1981 5y ago
What’s the difference between what Russia is doing and America’s illegal invasion of Iraq. Why weren’t American athletes banned?
- pastor_bob 5y ago
  Russians have been carpet bombing innocent Syrians for years. Even using thermobarbic bombs against them, with no sanctioning from the West. Obviously the middle east is of little consequence in these discussions for all parties.
  - nigerian1981 5y ago
    You’re not wrong there. The BBC interviewed a former deputy prosecutor general of Ukraine, who told the network: “It’s very emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blond hair … being killed every day.” Rather than question or challenge the comment, the BBC host flatly replied, “I understand and respect the emotion.”
    - rixed 5y ago
      In one of the "Russian Roulette" episode when the Ukrainian army circle and bomb some city in Dombas, the journalist notice a swastika pendant on one of the soldier and ask if he is not afraid of being misrepresented as a fascist, before moving on. Double standards at its best.
plandis 5y ago
What is the purpose of the ban? Is it really doing anything to undermine Russia’s leadership? My guess is that this harms chess players who happen to be Russian but who have no control over the government and doesn’t do anything to hinder the actual Russian government in any meaningful way.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  Yeah as an Iranian, I have experience with these sort of decisions and they are discriminatory and an excuse for xenophobia. I never chose where I was born. I left the second I could. Holding me to my birthplace is just as fucked as having a "no Browns allowed" sign.
- goto11 5y ago
  The purpose of the ban is to weaken and undermine the Putin regime. Of course it is unfortunate for the players not getting to play a chess match, but if this ban (along with all the other economic and cultural sanctions) shorten the war by just a day, surely that sacrifice would be well worth it.
  - plandis 5y ago
    Perhaps I’m missing something but I really don’t see _how_ banning chess players shortens a war that those same chess players have no control over.
    - goto11 5y ago
      There is no way to hit Putin and his war chest directly. The intent of the sanctions is to indirectly weaken him and his power structure and undermine his public support. The cultural sanctions are certainly the mildest, the economic sanctions are going to hit the average Russian a lot harder. All of the sanctions work together to send a clear message. Will it work? We don't know. Sanctions does not have a good track record of being effective, but on the other hand such a massive package of sanctions have been tried before. Of course the effect of any single sanction seem negligible. Does it stop the war to cancel a chess match? Of course not. Does it stop the war to seize some billionaires Yacht? Probably not. But the combined force of all the sanctions hopefully have an effect. Some say that popular support does not matter because Putin is a dictator. However Putin himself clearly believe popular support is important, otherwise why the need for the massive propaganda and silencing dissenting voices? When taking about the fairness of the sanctions, realize that a "fair and proportional response" according to international law would be to literally bomb and shell Russians cities.

jstx1 5y ago

They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.

lordnacho 5y ago
Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. There's no way around it, we all already know where they are from, regardless of what they think of the war.
- jstx1 5y ago
  > Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. Yeah because they're from Russia. I just don't see how "people will think" is enough of a reason to ban them from playing an event. (1) Some deranged person running Russia decided to invade Ukraine, kill innocent people and ruin millions of lives. (2) A chess organization in Norway bans a player because they were born in the same country as the deranged person from above. I don't get how (2) is an appropriate response to (1) or how it helps anyone. It's not a deterrent, it's not any kind of response - nobody in the Russian government will feel the tiniest bit of pressure because of it, it's such a token act that it's laughable to think about in the context of what's happening in Ukraine. At the same time it's a big deal to the handful of players it affects. All this does is create publicity and make the careers of a few people significantly worse just because they happened to be born in the wrong country.
  - cutemonster 5y ago
    I wonder if this will also push some people closer to Russia and Putin -- if they're not welcome in Europe, then, what's left for them?
- throw10920 5y ago
  > Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Citation needed. If I see someone playing chess, or any game for that matter, then I assume they represent the flag that they're playing under is what the represent. If I see someone playing under a non-Russian flag, it doesn't matter how Russian their name sounds - I don't consider them to be representing Russia in any capacity - they could have been born in India, a French citizen, ethnically Ethiopian, and just given that name by their parents, for all I know. (and, if I look into them further, and discover that they're a Russian citizen and they're intentionally not playing under a Russian flag, there's no way I'll think that they're representing Russia) Please find me examples of people who do not believe this, because the idea that "Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though" is both deeply weird and completely illogical to me, and I've never met someone who agrees with it.
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    You gotta be kidding me. The winter Olympics just ended. Who did you think Valieva was skating for? Herself? There's a huge team behind each competitor and they're based around nations. What about the ice hockey team? Bunch of neutrals who happened to have a history of playing together, having grown up in Russia, and got to the final? Totally disingenuous to not call them the Russian team, and nobody thought otherwise either. At some point you have to common sense and admit the whole neutral flag thing is just a convenient way for the IOC to avoid some tough decisions.
    - cutemonster 5y ago
      To me, chess is primarily an individual game, and I was mildly surprised that so many here think about it as a country thing. Magnus Carlsen the individual, not Norway, is best in the world. Norway is just one mildly interesting data point about him. In my mind. In the Olympics -- yes then I understand, then it's one player per country. So disallow, then. But there's so many other chess competitions. Comparing with ice hockey doesn't make sense to me.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  >Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though not really, in chess at least. Playing under the FIDE flag is pretty common when geopolitical tensions are involved, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_flag_player https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_flag_player Israeli players playing under the FIDE flag at UAE tournaments has happened as well. There's plenty of precedent for it.
gpm 5y ago
To add to this, it seems like chess players semi-frequently change what flag they play under, and can play under no flag at all. Alireza Firouzja (world #2) for instance originally played under the Iranian flag, played under no flag for a year and a half, and now plays under the French flag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja
- orwin 5y ago
  Firouzja is now French. He did the right thing. Alexander Grishuk should be able too, i'm pretty sure the Ukrainian government would be thrilled to give him a passport, even for free and without the usual administrative red tape.
cool_dude85 5y ago
As I recall, this is what happened to Nepo during the recent World Chess Championship anyway due to the doping scandal.

endisneigh 5y ago

If that were actually the issue they’d be allowed to play, but not on behalf of Russia. Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? If actions have to be taken, which ones? If actions can be taken to allow them to participate then in a sense is that saying the actions are sufficient to compensate for the senseless killing of Ukrainians? If no time or actions can be taken then are we ok with indefinitely ostracizing a group of people? What of their children? Earth has already been down that road, it’s not really great. Best to just punish those who directly contributed to the things with disagree with.

Miner49er 5y ago
> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? I think the idea in this case is that since many Ukranians can't play, Russians shouldn't be able to either. So I would think the sanctions would end when Ukraine isn't fighting anymore, and can participate again. That's at least the IOC's stance. [0] [0] https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participa...
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  But no Ukrainian was banned from playing? Were any even invited?
  - ladon86 5y ago
    You're right! The only fair solution is to drop Grischuk in central Kyiv; if he survives the journey to Norway and arrives on time, he should be allowed to play.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      Not every Ukrainian is located in Kyiv. There are Ukrainians living abroad, that have left Ukraine, and have the ability to leave Ukraine. Why is the standard an imaginary Ukrainian grandmaster currently trapped or engaged in fighting? Perhaps they should cancel it for everyone because this imaginary person can't make it. After all it is also unfair that people can travel from Germany and the US while the imaginary Ukrainian can't.

ZoomZoomZoom 5y ago

> the person is representing Russia It's not a team sport. One would think chess players represent themselves.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
Most sports are not team sports, yet sportsmen represent their countries.
- StanislavPetrov 5y ago
  No, that is only true in an event such as the Olympics where the team is officially sanctioned and determined by their country. A random individual does not represent their country whether they are playing a sport, working a job, or doing anything else - they represent themselves.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

The is position that a person with Russian citizen cannot represent themselves and will always be representing the country is bankrupt. Invitations are based on personal performance, not allocated based on national identity like the Olympics. Should us companies fire workers with Russian citizenship or ties?

dmitrygr 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

RustyBucket 5y ago

This is how you step on a path of a genocide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)

goto11 5y ago
Allowing a dictator to invade a neighboring country which he don't think had a right to exist, is how you end up with genocide.
- ZainRiz 5y ago
  Are you claiming Alexander Grischuk allowed Russia to invade Ukraine? (something he's been openly critical of?) How much more critical have you been of your own country invading other nations?
  - goto11 5y ago
    > Are you claiming Alexander Grischuk allowed Russia to invade Ukraine? The purpose of the cultural sanctions is not to punish the individual sportsmen or artist or change their opinions, the purpose is to undermine the popular support for the war and the Putin-regime. The Putin regime have used sports as a point of national pride in order to strengthen popular support. So it stands to reason that excluding Russia from sports would weaken the regime in some degree. Apparently many Russians are not even aware they are involved in a war due to the massive propaganda and censorship. Maybe Russia getting excluded from all sports event might at least get them to ask some questions about what is going on?
trhway 5y ago
Genocide and ethnic cleansing is already in full swing. Too late for "step on a path". As a Russian immigrant in US, i support kicking out from US or any other country any Russian who wouldn't condemn in straight clear words Putin's fascist regime and the genocide it conducts in Ukraine. Anything less is just a support of what is going on. For any public figure it is doubly so. Grischuk didn't even use the word "war" in order to not have issues with Russian government. Well, it is a war and one can't be on good terms with all the sides simultaneously, and there is no neutrality when it comes to genocide and ethnic cleansing. Ukrainian civilians get killed being intentionally bombed in their homes just for being Ukrainians (it is called genocide), Ukrainian women and children are running for their lives to Poland (as their lives are in danger just for them being Ukrainians, and such ethnicity based forced displacement constitutes ethnic cleansing), with some walking tens of kilometers in cold winter, and even some women giving birth in-route. If you don't take their side then you really should be kicked out of the civilized world.

random314 5y ago

Iran does the same thing with Israeli chess players which it considers an apartheid occupation of Palestine. I would love to hear your views on it.

cyanydeez 5y ago

ritht,n and do people really think governments should be independent of their citizenship? you are right, this is sending a message, but its a deeply philosophical message.

nigerian1981 5y ago

What’s the difference between what Russia is doing and America’s illegal invasion of Iraq. Why weren’t American athletes banned?

pastor_bob 5y ago
Russians have been carpet bombing innocent Syrians for years. Even using thermobarbic bombs against them, with no sanctioning from the West. Obviously the middle east is of little consequence in these discussions for all parties.
- nigerian1981 5y ago
  You’re not wrong there. The BBC interviewed a former deputy prosecutor general of Ukraine, who told the network: “It’s very emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blond hair … being killed every day.” Rather than question or challenge the comment, the BBC host flatly replied, “I understand and respect the emotion.”
  - rixed 5y ago
    In one of the "Russian Roulette" episode when the Ukrainian army circle and bomb some city in Dombas, the journalist notice a swastika pendant on one of the soldier and ask if he is not afraid of being misrepresented as a fascist, before moving on. Double standards at its best.

plandis 5y ago

What is the purpose of the ban? Is it really doing anything to undermine Russia’s leadership? My guess is that this harms chess players who happen to be Russian but who have no control over the government and doesn’t do anything to hinder the actual Russian government in any meaningful way.

aaomidi 5y ago
Yeah as an Iranian, I have experience with these sort of decisions and they are discriminatory and an excuse for xenophobia. I never chose where I was born. I left the second I could. Holding me to my birthplace is just as fucked as having a "no Browns allowed" sign.
goto11 5y ago
The purpose of the ban is to weaken and undermine the Putin regime. Of course it is unfortunate for the players not getting to play a chess match, but if this ban (along with all the other economic and cultural sanctions) shorten the war by just a day, surely that sacrifice would be well worth it.
- plandis 5y ago
  Perhaps I’m missing something but I really don’t see _how_ banning chess players shortens a war that those same chess players have no control over.
  - goto11 5y ago
    There is no way to hit Putin and his war chest directly. The intent of the sanctions is to indirectly weaken him and his power structure and undermine his public support. The cultural sanctions are certainly the mildest, the economic sanctions are going to hit the average Russian a lot harder. All of the sanctions work together to send a clear message. Will it work? We don't know. Sanctions does not have a good track record of being effective, but on the other hand such a massive package of sanctions have been tried before. Of course the effect of any single sanction seem negligible. Does it stop the war to cancel a chess match? Of course not. Does it stop the war to seize some billionaires Yacht? Probably not. But the combined force of all the sanctions hopefully have an effect. Some say that popular support does not matter because Putin is a dictator. However Putin himself clearly believe popular support is important, otherwise why the need for the massive propaganda and silencing dissenting voices? When taking about the fairness of the sanctions, realize that a "fair and proportional response" according to international law would be to literally bomb and shell Russians cities.