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Which is why it really surprised me when I learned that Disney had decided to leave the Russian market a couple of days ago. For whomever lived East of the Well

Which is why it really surprised me when I learned that Disney had decided to leave the Russian market a couple of days ago. For whomever lived East of the Well pre-1990 (I did grow up as a kid in Ceausescu's Romania) it is well known that things like Disney/Hollywood movies (that were still circulating in a sort of samizdat way) and mundane consumer products like Coca-Cola or Levi's did a lot more at bringing the Wall down than the entire US nuclear arsenal.

MrDresden 5y ago
Potentially by removing the access to these products and services, there is a slight chance for the Russian population to react in such a way as to force change in their country. Isolating them from the internet would though probably backfire.
- ivan90210 5y ago
  - hellorussianbot 5y ago
  - netmonk 5y ago
    with real reasons.
    - witrak 5y ago
      Would you name some of these? I mean related to the subject...
      - djbusby 5y ago
        Loads of folk in the "west" are brainwashed too - like all the ones who insist Trump won election in USA as one example. That same group is now claiming this conflict never would have started because Putin was afraid of Trump.
        ziml77 5y ago
        It is amazing to me that so many people can think that. It’s not like the truth is being censored.
      - netmonk 5y ago
        well i confess there is a difference between brainwashed and braindead, given the result of latest USA election i think we are more facing braindead peoples. Which could have a clear biological explanation as far as USA is the most diabetic country in the wolrd and diabete leads to Alzheimer (that some specialists call diabete Type3). Associated with third world education system, and high level of self esteem, it's easy to brainwash braindead peoples such as USA citizen. We all remember this Collin Powell little bottle of Anthrax. But what surprise me more is how true american can be so proud of themselve as far as they are such liitle dog of Israel... That's a pitty.
ant6n 5y ago
The Soviet Union had Pepsi.
- emteycz 5y ago
  And the non-Soviet states behind the Iron curtain had Coca Cola in Tuzex and similar.
- paganel 5y ago
  Technically we also had Pepsi in Romania, I drank it once or twice before 1990, but we didn’t have the consumer society the West had that made it so you could buy Pepsi or Coca Cola from basically almost everywhere.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    This is one thing I've always been curious about, if you'd indulge me for a short answer. Or link! How did consumer goods and food distribution actually happen in (commun|social)ist economies? As in, the last mile experience as a consumer?
    - dsign 5y ago
      The actual process is essentially the same than in an industrialized country: trucks that move goods from A to B. It's just that A, B, and the agent moving the goods are very different. By "different", I mean "much worse". Maladies: bad refrigeration, multi-week delays, places crumbling down. Check this photo of a "bodega" in Cuba (first image in this page): https://www.cibercuba.com/noticias/2018-08-01-u1-e192519-s27061-asi-cuida-socialismo-cubano-bodegas-productos-subsidiados https://www.cibercuba.com/noticias/2018-08-01-u1-e192519-s27...
    - retrac 5y ago
      They varied as much as anywhere, depending mostly on the level of economic development. From what I've read and from what relatives have told me, in the "good" economic years in East Germany, it was almost like in capitalist societies today. Restaurants, grocery stores, shopping malls, albeit with less selection, quality and periodic shortages and rationing of imported and more scarce supplies. Bananas were common enough but more of a "wow isn't this nice?" food you felt lucky to find in stock, rather than a daily breakfast item. Fresh tropical fruits were one of the things people were crazy for in the West when the wall fell. Despite the reputation, the government usually was very sensitive to the issue of keeping meat or at least a lot of bread on the table. When the DDR ran out of money to import coffee in the 70s, it was one of the more serious threats to their rule and it stimulated the development of the Vietnamese coffee industry in "socialist cooperation". (Fun fact: to this day Germany is still Vietnam's largest coffee buyer.). Prices were quite low in proportion to wages, effectively government subsidised. Hence shortages, though rarely for staples. Hunger was rare after 1950. Dietary boredom was not. In the not so good economic years, or in many parts of the Soviet Union or less wealthy socialist countries, similar story, except meat shortages and too many turnips and your wages might not afford too many restaurant visits. Out in the country there was some subsistence agriculture in the poorer places like Vietnam. Some places never Stalin-style collectivised the farms, and there you saw small market or at least barter economies in small towns and rural areas consuming local product locally, farmer's markets basically.
dunkelheit 5y ago
Many boycotts in the current round don't make any rational sense. It is all emotional reaction and desire not to be seen as collaborators.
- martimarkov 5y ago
  So if the desire by Google, Disney, Sony, Apple, etc. is to not be seen as enablers or collaborators to the russian-led war, one can assume that it's a rational decision not an emotional one... :D
- matwood 5y ago
  They are rational in the sense that most of the world is trying everything they can to avoid a shooting war with Russia. It's the whole of sanctions that will put pressure on Russia, not any single one.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  New Hampshire’s Governor has ordered state-run liquor stores to pull Russian vodka _and_ Russian branded vodka from the shelves.[1] So a product made entirely outside of Russia where not a single cent of profit finds its way back to Russia is still removed under the order if it uses Russian “branding”: > Products that use the words 'Russia' or 'Russian' in the brand name, advertising, or product description—along with products that depict Russian architecture or symbols colloquially associated with Russia—are all considered to be Russian-branded products and have been removed under the Governor's Executive Order[2] It’s hard to see how that’s anything other than emotional. And, I would imagine, illegal. [1](PDF)https://www.governor.nh.gov/sites/g/files/ehbemt336/files/inline-documents/sonh/2022-2.pdf https://www.governor.nh.gov/sites/g/files/ehbemt336/files/in... [2]https://www.newsweek.com/vodka-brands-remind-they-arent-russian-based-more-states-move-bans-1683716 https://www.newsweek.com/vodka-brands-remind-they-arent-russ...
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    Before long we'll see people attacking and targeting Russian Americans like they did Asian Americans and the media will justify it.
EnKopVand 5y ago
This is anecdotal and just what I’ve seen but here in Denmark one of the leading Apple retailers and certified repair shops is called Humac. Until recently I didn’t know they had a Russian owner. Now it’s become so much of a problem for them that they’ve edited their website to try and hide it. Companies that don’t severe ties with Russia as fast as possibly seem to be at a very real risk losing their customer bases here in Europe in the wake of the invasion. I can’t even claim to be above it. I cancelled my Netflix subscription when it was aired that they complied with Russian broadcast laws. Something Netflix no longer does by the way. I’ve never had an issue buying products from Russia before, so if I’m not the only one reacting like this, and it seems like my reaction has been amongst the milder here, then you may find some of the answer in that.
- lupire 5y ago
  Attacking Russian expats/exiles is a disgrace.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Absolutely agreed. At some point it's just ethnoracism, masquerading as virtue-signaling. "How does this action help end the war in Ukraine?" should be the litmus test, and if the logic to get there is too tortured, maybe rethink the action.
    - witrak 5y ago
      Say openly "I don't care about Ukraine"!
    - gran_colombia 5y ago
      The other test is also, "How does this action help prevent Putin's next invasion?" Actions should not only be about applying pressure now, it's about destroying a literally imperialist government's ability to win its wars. So anything which undermines any aspect of the Russian economy is fair game. If we can keep them from training people, good. If we can keep them from raising taxes, good. If we can keep them from feeding their troops, good. If we can usher in strikes over unpaid wages, good. If East European stores stop importing Russian goods, good.
lupire 5y ago
Disney still actively edits movies to add Chinese government propaganda, so obviously this is a short term PR gimmick.
- sitkack 5y ago
  Lots of their movies are re-rendered, re-voiced, etc for lots of markets. This is in addition to the propaganda they already contain. The ability to change digital movies on a market by market basis is astounding. Give the protagonist a folksy drawl in the south (US), a crisp British accent in the north, a Mexican Spanish accent in the west. You can basically render out the combinatorial expansion of all the parameters.
fennecfoxen 5y ago
Disney has a finite amount of money to gain in that market, and collecting it when sanctions are afflicting the main banks is risky and complicated. There’s also a PR win to be had.
- tsol 5y ago
  Unfortunately that also removes the possibility of using American media such as Disney as a cultural weapon. IMO it's further splitting the two worlds and making it only more likely to end in animosity
dleslie 5y ago
This is more likely because Russia is going to start requiring online services to carry a few dozen government mandated channels, and Disney didn't want to associate their brands with that.
awb 5y ago
In your example it was the introduction of those Western products that had some effect. Now, those products are ubiquitous and it’s their withdrawal that might have some effect. Most kids through middle age adults in Russia don’t know what it’s like without those Western products. The West seems happy to give Putin the full USSR glory days experience.
- tsol 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure it'll just end up being pirated by those who can, and those who can't will just move on. I don't see parents waging a revolution because they can't get Disney. Media can be easily substituted if it's the only option
cronix 5y ago
> it is well known that things like Disney/Hollywood movies (that were still circulating in a sort of samizdat way) and mundane consumer products like Coca-Cola or Levi's did a lot more at bringing the Wall down than the entire US nuclear arsenal. Interesting. As a young kid in the early 80's (USA), I remember going to a Disney movie with my mom and brothers called "Night Crossing," which was about a family in East Germany escaping to West Germany via a hot air balloon in the middle of the night that they constructed. Being less than 10, I had no clue what was going on in Europe or the effects of post-WW2, but that movie sure stuck with me even to this day. It prompted many healthy discussions as a child that would probably never have been brought up, or at least for another 10 years.

MrDresden 5y ago

Potentially by removing the access to these products and services, there is a slight chance for the Russian population to react in such a way as to force change in their country. Isolating them from the internet would though probably backfire.

ivan90210 5y ago
- hellorussianbot 5y ago
- netmonk 5y ago
  with real reasons.
  - witrak 5y ago
    Would you name some of these? I mean related to the subject...
    - djbusby 5y ago
      Loads of folk in the "west" are brainwashed too - like all the ones who insist Trump won election in USA as one example. That same group is now claiming this conflict never would have started because Putin was afraid of Trump.
      - ziml77 5y ago
        It is amazing to me that so many people can think that. It’s not like the truth is being censored.
    - netmonk 5y ago
      well i confess there is a difference between brainwashed and braindead, given the result of latest USA election i think we are more facing braindead peoples. Which could have a clear biological explanation as far as USA is the most diabetic country in the wolrd and diabete leads to Alzheimer (that some specialists call diabete Type3). Associated with third world education system, and high level of self esteem, it's easy to brainwash braindead peoples such as USA citizen. We all remember this Collin Powell little bottle of Anthrax. But what surprise me more is how true american can be so proud of themselve as far as they are such liitle dog of Israel... That's a pitty.

ant6n 5y ago

The Soviet Union had Pepsi.

emteycz 5y ago
And the non-Soviet states behind the Iron curtain had Coca Cola in Tuzex and similar.
paganel 5y ago
Technically we also had Pepsi in Romania, I drank it once or twice before 1990, but we didn’t have the consumer society the West had that made it so you could buy Pepsi or Coca Cola from basically almost everywhere.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  This is one thing I've always been curious about, if you'd indulge me for a short answer. Or link! How did consumer goods and food distribution actually happen in (commun|social)ist economies? As in, the last mile experience as a consumer?
  - dsign 5y ago
    The actual process is essentially the same than in an industrialized country: trucks that move goods from A to B. It's just that A, B, and the agent moving the goods are very different. By "different", I mean "much worse". Maladies: bad refrigeration, multi-week delays, places crumbling down. Check this photo of a "bodega" in Cuba (first image in this page): https://www.cibercuba.com/noticias/2018-08-01-u1-e192519-s27061-asi-cuida-socialismo-cubano-bodegas-productos-subsidiados https://www.cibercuba.com/noticias/2018-08-01-u1-e192519-s27...
  - retrac 5y ago
    They varied as much as anywhere, depending mostly on the level of economic development. From what I've read and from what relatives have told me, in the "good" economic years in East Germany, it was almost like in capitalist societies today. Restaurants, grocery stores, shopping malls, albeit with less selection, quality and periodic shortages and rationing of imported and more scarce supplies. Bananas were common enough but more of a "wow isn't this nice?" food you felt lucky to find in stock, rather than a daily breakfast item. Fresh tropical fruits were one of the things people were crazy for in the West when the wall fell. Despite the reputation, the government usually was very sensitive to the issue of keeping meat or at least a lot of bread on the table. When the DDR ran out of money to import coffee in the 70s, it was one of the more serious threats to their rule and it stimulated the development of the Vietnamese coffee industry in "socialist cooperation". (Fun fact: to this day Germany is still Vietnam's largest coffee buyer.). Prices were quite low in proportion to wages, effectively government subsidised. Hence shortages, though rarely for staples. Hunger was rare after 1950. Dietary boredom was not. In the not so good economic years, or in many parts of the Soviet Union or less wealthy socialist countries, similar story, except meat shortages and too many turnips and your wages might not afford too many restaurant visits. Out in the country there was some subsistence agriculture in the poorer places like Vietnam. Some places never Stalin-style collectivised the farms, and there you saw small market or at least barter economies in small towns and rural areas consuming local product locally, farmer's markets basically.

dunkelheit 5y ago

Many boycotts in the current round don't make any rational sense. It is all emotional reaction and desire not to be seen as collaborators.

martimarkov 5y ago
So if the desire by Google, Disney, Sony, Apple, etc. is to not be seen as enablers or collaborators to the russian-led war, one can assume that it's a rational decision not an emotional one... :D
matwood 5y ago
They are rational in the sense that most of the world is trying everything they can to avoid a shooting war with Russia. It's the whole of sanctions that will put pressure on Russia, not any single one.
elliekelly 5y ago
New Hampshire’s Governor has ordered state-run liquor stores to pull Russian vodka _and_ Russian branded vodka from the shelves.[1] So a product made entirely outside of Russia where not a single cent of profit finds its way back to Russia is still removed under the order if it uses Russian “branding”: > Products that use the words 'Russia' or 'Russian' in the brand name, advertising, or product description—along with products that depict Russian architecture or symbols colloquially associated with Russia—are all considered to be Russian-branded products and have been removed under the Governor's Executive Order[2] It’s hard to see how that’s anything other than emotional. And, I would imagine, illegal. [1](PDF)https://www.governor.nh.gov/sites/g/files/ehbemt336/files/inline-documents/sonh/2022-2.pdf https://www.governor.nh.gov/sites/g/files/ehbemt336/files/in... [2]https://www.newsweek.com/vodka-brands-remind-they-arent-russian-based-more-states-move-bans-1683716 https://www.newsweek.com/vodka-brands-remind-they-arent-russ...
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  Before long we'll see people attacking and targeting Russian Americans like they did Asian Americans and the media will justify it.

EnKopVand 5y ago

This is anecdotal and just what I’ve seen but here in Denmark one of the leading Apple retailers and certified repair shops is called Humac. Until recently I didn’t know they had a Russian owner. Now it’s become so much of a problem for them that they’ve edited their website to try and hide it. Companies that don’t severe ties with Russia as fast as possibly seem to be at a very real risk losing their customer bases here in Europe in the wake of the invasion. I can’t even claim to be above it. I cancelled my Netflix subscription when it was aired that they complied with Russian broadcast laws. Something Netflix no longer does by the way. I’ve never had an issue buying products from Russia before, so if I’m not the only one reacting like this, and it seems like my reaction has been amongst the milder here, then you may find some of the answer in that.

lupire 5y ago
Attacking Russian expats/exiles is a disgrace.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Absolutely agreed. At some point it's just ethnoracism, masquerading as virtue-signaling. "How does this action help end the war in Ukraine?" should be the litmus test, and if the logic to get there is too tortured, maybe rethink the action.
  - witrak 5y ago
    Say openly "I don't care about Ukraine"!
  - gran_colombia 5y ago
    The other test is also, "How does this action help prevent Putin's next invasion?" Actions should not only be about applying pressure now, it's about destroying a literally imperialist government's ability to win its wars. So anything which undermines any aspect of the Russian economy is fair game. If we can keep them from training people, good. If we can keep them from raising taxes, good. If we can keep them from feeding their troops, good. If we can usher in strikes over unpaid wages, good. If East European stores stop importing Russian goods, good.

lupire 5y ago

Disney still actively edits movies to add Chinese government propaganda, so obviously this is a short term PR gimmick.

sitkack 5y ago
Lots of their movies are re-rendered, re-voiced, etc for lots of markets. This is in addition to the propaganda they already contain. The ability to change digital movies on a market by market basis is astounding. Give the protagonist a folksy drawl in the south (US), a crisp British accent in the north, a Mexican Spanish accent in the west. You can basically render out the combinatorial expansion of all the parameters.

fennecfoxen 5y ago

Disney has a finite amount of money to gain in that market, and collecting it when sanctions are afflicting the main banks is risky and complicated. There’s also a PR win to be had.

tsol 5y ago
Unfortunately that also removes the possibility of using American media such as Disney as a cultural weapon. IMO it's further splitting the two worlds and making it only more likely to end in animosity

dleslie 5y ago

This is more likely because Russia is going to start requiring online services to carry a few dozen government mandated channels, and Disney didn't want to associate their brands with that.

awb 5y ago

In your example it was the introduction of those Western products that had some effect. Now, those products are ubiquitous and it’s their withdrawal that might have some effect. Most kids through middle age adults in Russia don’t know what it’s like without those Western products. The West seems happy to give Putin the full USSR glory days experience.

tsol 5y ago
I'm pretty sure it'll just end up being pirated by those who can, and those who can't will just move on. I don't see parents waging a revolution because they can't get Disney. Media can be easily substituted if it's the only option

cronix 5y ago

> it is well known that things like Disney/Hollywood movies (that were still circulating in a sort of samizdat way) and mundane consumer products like Coca-Cola or Levi's did a lot more at bringing the Wall down than the entire US nuclear arsenal. Interesting. As a young kid in the early 80's (USA), I remember going to a Disney movie with my mom and brothers called "Night Crossing," which was about a family in East Germany escaping to West Germany via a hot air balloon in the middle of the night that they constructed. Being less than 10, I had no clue what was going on in Europe or the effects of post-WW2, but that movie sure stuck with me even to this day. It prompted many healthy discussions as a child that would probably never have been brought up, or at least for another 10 years.