24 ms·

One of the parlament members floated the idea of seizing (*) people's savings to offset the effects of the sanctions. Though "floated" doesn't quite capture it

by eps 5y ago

One of the parlament members floated the idea of seizing (*) people's savings to offset the effects of the sanctions. Though "floated" doesn't quite capture it - he apparently "explained" that this will be necessary and "reminded" that the government will have no choice but to "arrest" the savings of Russians to deal with the crisis. To a question of whether these funds will be repaid, he said that it'll take several generations to to do so, at which point it will all be eaten by an inflation. They are all puppets, so it doesn't matter who said it exactly and in which context. It's the message that matters. And the message is chilling. https://news.ru/economics/v-gosdume-prokommentirovali-vozmozhnuyu-konfiskaciyu-sberezhenij-rossiyan/ https://news.ru/economics/v-gosdume-prokommentirovali-vozmoz... * fixed the typo, kudos to rob74

marvin 5y ago
Would a smart and well-connected Russian keep their savings as a Ruble deposit in a russian bank? It’s too late now, but I’d like to imagine that some individuals kept their stock market savings with international broners.
- miohtama 5y ago
  That's why a lot of sanctions go against oligarchs in a person. It is more discriminate and does not matter what kind of property they have. For example, oligarchs Italian villas https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/uk-targets-three-oligarchs-and-five-russian-banks-in-first-tranche-of-new-sanctions/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/uk-target... The rationale is that you cannot do both support a dictator and plunder your own people, and then enjoy the benefits of European lifestyle without European rule of law based justice.
  - posix_me_less 5y ago
    > rule of law based justice What other kinds of justice are there? In Russia they do not have law based justice?
    - imajoredinecon 5y ago
      "(Rule of law)-based justice" not "rule of (law-based) justice" I agree it's a tad hard to parse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law
    - miohtama 5y ago
      They have Putin’s justice. Disagree with Putin and you go to jail.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - marvin 5y ago
      Rule of law is the name of the principles that make sure everyone gets fair, just and equal treatment.
- rob74 5y ago
  A businessperson probably not, but let's say, a software developer with a relatively good salary? Not sure if they would have any other options than Russian banks (or banks that would be affected by such a confiscation, even if they're not based in Russia)...
  - Klaster_1 5y ago
    There's always an option to invest the money using foreign brokers like Interactive Brokers (they even have russian UI and support) who did not boot russians previously. Or buy a property and rent it, which is a popular option too. Or cash out the foreign currency and keep it under the mattress.
    - lostmsu 5y ago
      AFAIK, Interactive Brokers told all Russia-based accounts to move after sanctions were announced.
rob74 5y ago
I assume you mean "seizing people's savings"? And although they're (probably) all puppets, it's still significant that this opinion came from "deputy from the Communist Party Nikolai Arefiev", and not from a member of Putin's own "United Russia" party, which is significantly more capital- (and oligarch-) friendly...
- hutrdvnj 5y ago
  I think you should remove the word "probably". Even if you put it in parentheses, you give the small possibility that they are not puppets, which is untrue. Every single person in the Duma is specifically pro-Putin. Maybe there a some sleepers around Putin who appear to be pro-Putin in public, but in reality wait for the right conditions to assassinate him, but that's just speculation.
usrbinbash 5y ago
History is full of examples for how letting a dictator run a country for a prolonged period of time will come back to bite the people in the behind.
- gilrain 5y ago
  Putin has used violent oppression to maintain his rule. The victims do not deserve your contempt.
  - linspace 5y ago
    Maybe the comment is about european leaders or even the russian oligarchs, not the russian people.
  - usrbinbash 5y ago
    The comment is primarily about other countries governments and their wide lenience toward Putin, not about the Russian people. Without such leniency and appeasement (usually in the name of the oh-so-important "good economic relations"), no autocratic system can exist for long in todays world.
    - SantalBlush 5y ago
      The US has a long, rich history of calling a foreign leader "dictator" then installing a new government. We kind of got tired of it because it's actually extremely unethical.
  - cloutchaser 5y ago
    That's not quite true though is it. I suggest you read some Viktor Frankl and Scholznitsen. The type of leader a country has always has something to do with its citizens. It's not a one way street. If enough citizens stand up to dictators, you get a better system. After all, almost all countries had kings and dictators at some point, and eventually some got rid of them.
    - 5y ago
zarzavat 5y ago
Maybe the cryptocurrency sceptics on HN who live in stable western countries without any fear of their savings disappearing overnight can now understand why it is a valuable invention.
- dgellow 5y ago
  I would say the exact opposite. So much pressure can be applied against an oppressive fascist regime thanks to the fact that the world is still using fiat. Russia cannot be trusted as a trade partner when Putin, just one guy alone, decides to put at risk more than 25% of worldwide wheat export just to satisfy his personal dream of a lost past glory. He is using nuclear threats to satisfy his own ego. That type of insane behaviour should be completely inacceptable in a global economy and has to be exponentially expensive to do if we want stable peace. Trust between trade partners is one of the most important element of an economy but for ideological reasons crypto-currencies enthusiasts believe that should instead be delegated to a protocol. I think it's a fundamental mistake.
  - unclebucknasty 5y ago
    This. Sure, in the micro, maybe crypto helps Russian citizens protect assets during a difficult period, but so can gold. And, in the macro, these fiat levers are much more punitive to the regime and the elites that support it. Not to mention crypto can help the wealthy targets skirt sanctions. On balance, given that we are dealing with a war of aggression and loss of life, I'm grateful for these tools. And, even to the extent it causes some pain for the Russian people, that further erodes support for the regime's unjust campaign and turns up the heat on them.
    - kordlessagain 5y ago
      I just read that Russia is the 5th largest gold holder in the world.
      - dgellow 5y ago
        Yes, they spent the past ~10 years preparing for Western sanctions by buying gold and foreign currencies. They were warned by western countries before 2014 and took the time to adjust their strategy. IMHO the most interesting change they did is to become self-sufficient regarding their food production, and even net exporter of wheat, corn, and other cereals. They correctly identified that was a risk and made necessary changes to reduce it to the point where they can leverage their position against other actors.
bwindels 5y ago
That is shocking, and seems enough to create a run on the bank on its own.
matwood 5y ago
There were reports (hard to verify obviously) over the weekend that places like jewelry stores were busy as people were trying to change their rubles to a hard asset. Do people who live in Russia keep a lot of money in a bank and/or as rubles, or do they keep it in something like USD/EURO and convert as needed? This drop is obviously extreme, but it's not like the Russian economy was great before.
- toyg 5y ago
  I expect it will be like in any not-so-rich country: most people are stuck with the national currency, while middle and upper classes store their wealth in foreign currency.
  - dunkelheit 5y ago
    USD savings accounts are accessible to everybody with a bank account and pretty popular. Although recently less so, because interest rates dropped to almost zero.
    - hef19898 5y ago
      A dollar account at an Russian bank doesn't help if the Russian government seizes accounts so. And witg Russian banks being partially cut of from SWIFT, those accounts might be harder to come by.
      - dunkelheit 5y ago
        Indeed. Though I think this is the measure of last resort for them. Right now they announced a very steep base rate hike and ordered exporters to sell 80% of inbound currency and these measures seem to be working - ruble rebounded from the high of 110 per USD early in the morning and is now trading at around 95-100.
  - willis936 5y ago
    This is the reason oligarchs were individually sanctioned.
nsonha 5y ago
> seizing aka stealing, war profiteering
- tokai 5y ago
  >war profiteering I doubt very much that it would make any profit.
  - nsonha 5y ago
    if you just take things that belong to other people, of course it isn't called a "profit", but that's hardly the point.
seanw444 5y ago
I'm beginning to wonder if financially crippling the entire nation (and all of its innocent civilians) was the correct alternative to fighting. Possibly just as bad. Gonna have a lot of people starving, homeless, and in poor health. Putin will re-align the remaining pieces of the economy to focus on the war effort, and the Russian elites.
- caeril 5y ago
  > Possibly just as bad. No, it's much worse. Collective Punishment is a globally-recognized war crime: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docindex/v2_rul_rule103 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docindex/v2... The US and the EU are flagrantly violating the Geneva Convention and everyone I know is cheering it on. Absolutely sickening.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    This is a ridiculous comment. Putin started an unprovoked war against a country of 40 million. He's using the full power of the Russian state in this war and has access to nuclear weapons. He's currently engaged in indiscriminate shelling of civilians[1] (how's that for collective punishment). What's your alternative to sanctions? Do nothing? Move NATO troops into Ukraine and start WWIII? [1] https://www.axios.com/kharkiv-russia-ukraine-invasion-civilians-d58b38f1-14f1-46ce-9453-b68de0f17af0.html https://www.axios.com/kharkiv-russia-ukraine-invasion-civili...
  - breakingcups 5y ago
    "on account of the acts of individuals for which it cannot be regarded as collectively responsible" which is up for debate in this instance. I don't agree with you. I do think the literal bombing of residences and hospitals, false flag operations, wearing the enemy's uniform, etc. etc. all constitute provable warcrimes which should be investigated. Not that I want to devolve into whataboutism, which I realize I'm skirting close to.
    - lottin 5y ago
      > which is up for debate in this instance It's not up for debate. The Russian army acts on behalf of Russia. Therefore the whole of Russia is collectively responsible for the actions of the Russian army.
boringg 5y ago
While they may be all puppets attribution to specific comments ALWAYS matters and context is equally important. Otherwise you are just spreading FUD.

by eps 5y ago

marvin 5y ago

Would a smart and well-connected Russian keep their savings as a Ruble deposit in a russian bank? It’s too late now, but I’d like to imagine that some individuals kept their stock market savings with international broners.

miohtama 5y ago
That's why a lot of sanctions go against oligarchs in a person. It is more discriminate and does not matter what kind of property they have. For example, oligarchs Italian villas https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/uk-targets-three-oligarchs-and-five-russian-banks-in-first-tranche-of-new-sanctions/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/uk-target... The rationale is that you cannot do both support a dictator and plunder your own people, and then enjoy the benefits of European lifestyle without European rule of law based justice.
- posix_me_less 5y ago
  > rule of law based justice What other kinds of justice are there? In Russia they do not have law based justice?
  - imajoredinecon 5y ago
    "(Rule of law)-based justice" not "rule of (law-based) justice" I agree it's a tad hard to parse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law
  - miohtama 5y ago
    They have Putin’s justice. Disagree with Putin and you go to jail.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - marvin 5y ago
    Rule of law is the name of the principles that make sure everyone gets fair, just and equal treatment.
rob74 5y ago
A businessperson probably not, but let's say, a software developer with a relatively good salary? Not sure if they would have any other options than Russian banks (or banks that would be affected by such a confiscation, even if they're not based in Russia)...
- Klaster_1 5y ago
  There's always an option to invest the money using foreign brokers like Interactive Brokers (they even have russian UI and support) who did not boot russians previously. Or buy a property and rent it, which is a popular option too. Or cash out the foreign currency and keep it under the mattress.
  - lostmsu 5y ago
    AFAIK, Interactive Brokers told all Russia-based accounts to move after sanctions were announced.

rob74 5y ago

I assume you mean "seizing people's savings"? And although they're (probably) all puppets, it's still significant that this opinion came from "deputy from the Communist Party Nikolai Arefiev", and not from a member of Putin's own "United Russia" party, which is significantly more capital- (and oligarch-) friendly...

hutrdvnj 5y ago
I think you should remove the word "probably". Even if you put it in parentheses, you give the small possibility that they are not puppets, which is untrue. Every single person in the Duma is specifically pro-Putin. Maybe there a some sleepers around Putin who appear to be pro-Putin in public, but in reality wait for the right conditions to assassinate him, but that's just speculation.

usrbinbash 5y ago

History is full of examples for how letting a dictator run a country for a prolonged period of time will come back to bite the people in the behind.

gilrain 5y ago
Putin has used violent oppression to maintain his rule. The victims do not deserve your contempt.
- linspace 5y ago
  Maybe the comment is about european leaders or even the russian oligarchs, not the russian people.
- usrbinbash 5y ago
  The comment is primarily about other countries governments and their wide lenience toward Putin, not about the Russian people. Without such leniency and appeasement (usually in the name of the oh-so-important "good economic relations"), no autocratic system can exist for long in todays world.
  - SantalBlush 5y ago
    The US has a long, rich history of calling a foreign leader "dictator" then installing a new government. We kind of got tired of it because it's actually extremely unethical.
- cloutchaser 5y ago
  That's not quite true though is it. I suggest you read some Viktor Frankl and Scholznitsen. The type of leader a country has always has something to do with its citizens. It's not a one way street. If enough citizens stand up to dictators, you get a better system. After all, almost all countries had kings and dictators at some point, and eventually some got rid of them.
  - 5y ago

zarzavat 5y ago

Maybe the cryptocurrency sceptics on HN who live in stable western countries without any fear of their savings disappearing overnight can now understand why it is a valuable invention.

dgellow 5y ago
I would say the exact opposite. So much pressure can be applied against an oppressive fascist regime thanks to the fact that the world is still using fiat. Russia cannot be trusted as a trade partner when Putin, just one guy alone, decides to put at risk more than 25% of worldwide wheat export just to satisfy his personal dream of a lost past glory. He is using nuclear threats to satisfy his own ego. That type of insane behaviour should be completely inacceptable in a global economy and has to be exponentially expensive to do if we want stable peace. Trust between trade partners is one of the most important element of an economy but for ideological reasons crypto-currencies enthusiasts believe that should instead be delegated to a protocol. I think it's a fundamental mistake.
- unclebucknasty 5y ago
  This. Sure, in the micro, maybe crypto helps Russian citizens protect assets during a difficult period, but so can gold. And, in the macro, these fiat levers are much more punitive to the regime and the elites that support it. Not to mention crypto can help the wealthy targets skirt sanctions. On balance, given that we are dealing with a war of aggression and loss of life, I'm grateful for these tools. And, even to the extent it causes some pain for the Russian people, that further erodes support for the regime's unjust campaign and turns up the heat on them.
  - kordlessagain 5y ago
    I just read that Russia is the 5th largest gold holder in the world.
    - dgellow 5y ago
      Yes, they spent the past ~10 years preparing for Western sanctions by buying gold and foreign currencies. They were warned by western countries before 2014 and took the time to adjust their strategy. IMHO the most interesting change they did is to become self-sufficient regarding their food production, and even net exporter of wheat, corn, and other cereals. They correctly identified that was a risk and made necessary changes to reduce it to the point where they can leverage their position against other actors.

bwindels 5y ago

That is shocking, and seems enough to create a run on the bank on its own.

matwood 5y ago

There were reports (hard to verify obviously) over the weekend that places like jewelry stores were busy as people were trying to change their rubles to a hard asset. Do people who live in Russia keep a lot of money in a bank and/or as rubles, or do they keep it in something like USD/EURO and convert as needed? This drop is obviously extreme, but it's not like the Russian economy was great before.

toyg 5y ago
I expect it will be like in any not-so-rich country: most people are stuck with the national currency, while middle and upper classes store their wealth in foreign currency.
- dunkelheit 5y ago
  USD savings accounts are accessible to everybody with a bank account and pretty popular. Although recently less so, because interest rates dropped to almost zero.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    A dollar account at an Russian bank doesn't help if the Russian government seizes accounts so. And witg Russian banks being partially cut of from SWIFT, those accounts might be harder to come by.
    - dunkelheit 5y ago
      Indeed. Though I think this is the measure of last resort for them. Right now they announced a very steep base rate hike and ordered exporters to sell 80% of inbound currency and these measures seem to be working - ruble rebounded from the high of 110 per USD early in the morning and is now trading at around 95-100.
- willis936 5y ago
  This is the reason oligarchs were individually sanctioned.

nsonha 5y ago

> seizing aka stealing, war profiteering

tokai 5y ago
>war profiteering I doubt very much that it would make any profit.
- nsonha 5y ago
  if you just take things that belong to other people, of course it isn't called a "profit", but that's hardly the point.

seanw444 5y ago

I'm beginning to wonder if financially crippling the entire nation (and all of its innocent civilians) was the correct alternative to fighting. Possibly just as bad. Gonna have a lot of people starving, homeless, and in poor health. Putin will re-align the remaining pieces of the economy to focus on the war effort, and the Russian elites.

caeril 5y ago
> Possibly just as bad. No, it's much worse. Collective Punishment is a globally-recognized war crime: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docindex/v2_rul_rule103 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docindex/v2... The US and the EU are flagrantly violating the Geneva Convention and everyone I know is cheering it on. Absolutely sickening.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  This is a ridiculous comment. Putin started an unprovoked war against a country of 40 million. He's using the full power of the Russian state in this war and has access to nuclear weapons. He's currently engaged in indiscriminate shelling of civilians[1] (how's that for collective punishment). What's your alternative to sanctions? Do nothing? Move NATO troops into Ukraine and start WWIII? [1] https://www.axios.com/kharkiv-russia-ukraine-invasion-civilians-d58b38f1-14f1-46ce-9453-b68de0f17af0.html https://www.axios.com/kharkiv-russia-ukraine-invasion-civili...
- breakingcups 5y ago
  "on account of the acts of individuals for which it cannot be regarded as collectively responsible" which is up for debate in this instance. I don't agree with you. I do think the literal bombing of residences and hospitals, false flag operations, wearing the enemy's uniform, etc. etc. all constitute provable warcrimes which should be investigated. Not that I want to devolve into whataboutism, which I realize I'm skirting close to.
  - lottin 5y ago
    > which is up for debate in this instance It's not up for debate. The Russian army acts on behalf of Russia. Therefore the whole of Russia is collectively responsible for the actions of the Russian army.

boringg 5y ago

While they may be all puppets attribution to specific comments ALWAYS matters and context is equally important. Otherwise you are just spreading FUD.