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Sid Meier warns the games industry about monetisation

220 points by ChrisWreck 5y ago

jerryzh 5y ago
Yeah, yeah, so this is the reason Civ 6 use sh*t dlc to cheat money? Don't forget Civ 6's dlc still hold one of the only 7 games that is "overwhelmingly negative". -- From a (still) angry luxury civ6 pre-order player
sstevenshang 5y ago
Excellent article, and the thing is that if you spend any time talking to gamers or on gaming platforms, there’s a near consensus on this attitude against in-game purchases that contribute nothing to gameplay. Even though people still make these purchases, I’d say most of them are conscious of the fact that the current trend is detrimental to gamers. As a side note, the only people pushing for NTFs in games are crypto enthusiasts or profit-seeking actors who do not care about game experience at all. Even gamers who are also into crypto do not advocate for NTF in games. The whole thing is a shit show IMO.
- stemlord 5y ago
  Do you mean "NFTs"?
  - sstevenshang 5y ago
    Yes NFT! I keep making the same typo everywhere.
- Bombthecat 5y ago
  I think the idea of nfts is cool, imagine star citizen where everyone could model ships and sell them as nft and set a counter of how many they sell (are available) the market should then set the value between work put in to design the ship, sell it and how many are available. So juat like right now, you could buy a ship for 5 dollar, cheaply designed and thousands are available (or endless) or get a unique nice and good looking ship for ome thousand (or more?) because you need to pay the work of one guy for several days and its only one time available. What get right now: bullshit, scams and everything controlled by the company selling the game.
  - tasha0663 5y ago
    > imagine star citizen where everyone could model ships and sell them as nft and set a counter of how many they sell (are available) the market should then set the value between work put in to design the ship, sell it and how many are available. Uh, is that fun or am I back in economics class?
    - 83457 5y ago
      Yes
  - nest0r 5y ago
    But why would I need NFTs for that?
    - saurik 5y ago
      NFTs (as defined by ERC721 or whatever it is) by and large end up acting as an interoperable standard that allows the assets to be traded on unified exchanges with assets from other games in a way that doesn't require any of the game developers to have to deal with money transmission issues (as they would only ever sell, not buy or facilitate trade). Like in some sense all the NFT is to the game you develop is a minimal external yet-trustable representation of the existence of some in-game asset so people can then go and use all of these systems you don't have to worry about to trade it around and then anyone can provide the receipt back to your game later to be the potentially-new owner.
      - nest0r 5y ago
        Why would any publisher do that? They make their profit on ingame marketplaces by taking a cut of the transaction it just doesn't make any sense.
        Bombthecat 5y ago
        The publisher can take a cut from minting (creating an nft) and taking a cut from every sale, for example 30 percent first sale and then any other sale 10 percent.
- washadjeffmad 5y ago
  I'd separate that into two categories: consensus that "withholding content, breaking games up, or locking devices to stores to artificially create redundant sales" and "abusive monetization design where the game is mostly a flimsy pretext for their real product, a gambling addiction simulator" are reviled industry practices. People like their stores and skins, they just don't want to have to gamble to get them or be tricked into pay-to-play. I tried a popular mobile game for the first time recently and almost immediately uninstalled it. As a new player I was overwhelmed with freebies, but every action funneled me back to the store or demanded some kind of worthless interaction. I was horrified at the thought that I might ever allow myself to get used to it and just how many people already had.
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    > People like their stores and skins Two types of people here, too. Those who bought "Horse Armor" and those who thought it was the most ridiculous thing they had ever heard of. Personally I dislike the move towards every game being a live service to justify the presence of a store with skins and emotes and such. I'm getting sick of always online, seasonal event driven live service games where the game balance constantly changes and new stuff is funnelled into it constantly. It is such a relief to me when a game just is released in a mostly final shape, with maybe some QoL patches and an expansion dlc or two. Destiny 2 ruined this for me in a big way with how they are not just introducing new content but also removing old content, content I paid for and now can never access again. It has set a terrible precedent and I'm just not going to use my money on games like that anymore.
    - pom66 5y ago
    - p1necone 5y ago
      > Destiny 2 ruined this for me in a big way with how they are not just introducing new content but also removing old content, content I paid for and now can never access again. There are good reasons why this can be healthy for a game that's constantly evolving with new content and is intended to be live for like a decade+ like Destiny. By sunsetting old content periodically they have a much easier time balancing everything, and making sure the world is consistent. They can also do visual improvements over time without having to polish an ever increasing pile of old content. See also: leagues in Path of Exile, set rotation in trading card games. Destiny is an MMO, you should know going in that it's a live, evolving beast. Not something that you can rely on staying the same forever.
- donmcronald 5y ago
  I think the NFT thing should be illegal. It adds nothing beyond a false promise that you're buying an "investment" instead of an in game item. IMO it's disgusting to see game companies targeting kids with a scam like that. As for the rest of the article, he could be talking about me. I've basically given up on PC gaming. I used to love gaming and now it feels like a second job. It feels like I'm being forced to "accomplish" a bunch of in game goals because the developer thinks "engaging" me like that is going to lead to a microtransaction. I thought I'm probably just getting older and grumpier, but I bought an Oculus Quest before Christmas and it's been a blast. Games like The Room had me feeling like a kid who just got their first PC game. I think a lot of it has to do with VR being a new platform and there's less focus on developers squeezing every penny out of you and more incentive for them to build small, fun games that help discover what makes sense in VR. The craziest part is that I've spent several hundred dollars on VR games in a few months which is more than I've spent on PC games in the last 5 years combined. I know it's popular to trash Meta/Facebook, but I think they did a really good job of pricing VR games. It's <$30 on the high end and they have frequent sales, but the sales aren't such deep discounts that I feel bad for buying something at full price. I also think microtransactions can make sense. GGG did a good job with Path of Exile. I've played that game on and off and every time I pick it back up I play for a bit and if my stash starts getting disorganized with items that have a convenience stash tab as a microtransaction I'll buy that stash tab. It's always after I've spent a weekend playing and it's only $20, so I don't feel like I've gotten ripped off or forced into buying something. I've probably spent twice as much on that game as any other in recent memory.
  - prox 5y ago
    I guess it very much depends what kind of games you play. These are the games I enjoy : Rimworld, Valheim, Police Simulator, Project Zomboid, Space Engineers, KSP 1, Factorio, Skyrim, Mount and Blade 2 : Bannerlord. None of them have significant money sinks with add on purchases. Most are modable, adding to their appeal and longevity.
    - donmcronald 5y ago
      You're right! Rimworld and Factorio have been on my Steam wishlist for a while.
Chris2048 5y ago
Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30497881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30497881
lewispollard 5y ago
It's a bit rich, given there are 14 paid DLCs for the latest Civ game, and they all have pretty negative reviews for being too expensive while adding little to the gameplay.
- StanislavPetrov 5y ago
  Ironically, I'd rather play a game where the DLC didn't add much to gameplay. If I purchase a game, I want to be able to enjoy the full experience of that game without being forced to purchase DLC. If they release DLC that is little more than different skins or supplemental music, I don't feel I've lost out on anything by not purchasing it. On the contrary, if they release a DLC that substantively changes the game and, even worse, makes it incompatible with the original version for saved games or multiplayer, then I'm more or less obligated to purchase it if I want to keep enjoying the game to its full potential.
- kevingadd 5y ago
  Is Sid actually involved in the Civ games anymore? As far as I know he hasn't been directly involved in that franchise for years.
  - usrusr 5y ago
    It's still carrying his name and he is still creative director (of the company, not of the game) so it doesn't seem unfair to be to call him out on it. Even if he is not much involved (which I believe to be accurate)
- EdwardDiego 5y ago
  Yep, the DLC model can be quite obnoxious. Paradox has gone hard on DLCs and cosmetic DLCs are all fine and dandy, but some of the features locked into other DLCs (No espionage in Hearts of Iron 4 without a DLC, no amphibious tanks without a different DLC) are, IMO, core gameplay components that shouldn't require payment. But I was happy to pay for a DLC that gave Commonwealth countries unique focuses.
  - 5y ago
fattless 5y ago
The worst part of this trend to me is how many games sacrifice their identity to fit the mold that is now most profitable, it feels so soulless. This is all from my own experience/memory. Every game needs live service, seasons, and a battle pass. While I appreciate that it can keep the game fresh and evolving over time, I think a lot of times its harmful. Sometimes a relatively simple game is blown out of proportion over time and id almost rather a stagnant game. Furthermore, gameplay can suffer too. In my opinion R6 siege started really strong, but has gone downhill recently, most obviously in operator design. Real power creep is sometimes an issue as well, somewhat recently I remember there were one or two operators added that felt like almost direct upgrades to base game ones. In its case, both the art style and operator design suffered from being stretched out for so long. Or RDR2, who sells most of the content through their premium currency and whose movement between the single player and online is so drastically different that fights online look like smash bros melee matches with frantic strafing and rolling. Compare this to titanfall 2’s design, which has remained stagnant (because it was killed a long time ago), but incredibly successful maintaining a large player base to this day. Cod and pubg have sacrificed their art style and aesthetic, MW went from “realistic” tactical characters to jigsaw puppets and neon, out of place outfits. It’s like power creep, but for ridiculousness, skins have to get crazier and crazier because sometimes it keeps people buying them because its funny. It fit in fortnite because it was cartoonish and ridiculous from the beginning, but through MW and CW lifespan you can see the art style gradually decay. These game aren’t really meant to be taken seriously, but it always kinda put me off. Not necessarily making an argument about my taste, but rather how the games stray more and more from their original vision, driven by micro transactions. Battlefield has thrown out their traditional classes for specialists following in r6 and other hero shooters footsteps, part of me always kinda felt like it was to sell skins for each specialist, but I might be wrong here. This isnt the biggest deal, especially not within the games industry, but frustrating to see innovation slowly be stamped back into the mold. There are many games that hold true to their visions or fill these voids, but the state of AAA gaming and how it molds to the market is a little disappointing to me.
- ranger207 5y ago
  I agree. At this point AAA games are a genera unto themselves, whether they're a shooter, adventure game, sports game, whatever. They all share the same elements you outlined: seasons, battlepass, in-game currency, microtransactions for the smallest items, and game design that puts the focus of the entire game on those elements. AAA games are made with massive budgets and are designed to be very attractive to play, to the point of addiction, but I simply can't get into them because of the genera elements.
time_to_smile 5y ago
I think the real issue is that we've just left a brief period where the best way to succeed in the market was to make good games. Anyone who grew up playing arcade games knows that, for the vast majority of cases, the pre-console arcade world was about finding the best way to keep you feeding quarters to a machine. Difficult, almost beating the boss, but ultimately simple games ruled the day. Some are classics now but many were very meh. The early home console years, when reviews were still hard to come by and rentals weren't a thing yet, were flooded with tons of pure trash games. Everyone knows how awful any licensed game was, but it didn't matter because all they had to do was to get you (or more often parents/grandparents) to buy the game. By the time you got home and realized the game was garbage it was already too late. I remember owning far more horrible games as a kid than good ones. The late 1990s and early 2000s were a great time for gaming because it was much easier to determine if a game was quality or not before buying, and for a brief window of time the only really great way to make money was to just make a compelling game that got good reviews. We've since seen gaming become a major industry, where heavy marketing can play just as big a factor as initial reviews. With the massive growth of online gaming and digital downloads it's much easier to make a game that is really about a million microtransaction (remember when people used to think that would save the internet?) The truth is games have always been structured in a way to optimizer revenue, it's just that we remember a period when the best way to make money in a game was to actually make a game good.
- ece 5y ago
  I think this is an underappreciated point, consoles and PC stores have been able to maintain some quality, but I doubt most people playing gacha games today know they're gacha, much less what the odds on pulls are. In moderation this is all ok, but getting there as an industry seems tough on mobile. There are more good ports than ever, especially for indies on mobile, which is a good start.
imiric 5y ago
Sid is a few years too late with the warning. Gameplay and original game design have taken a backseat to increasingly hostile monetization schemes, lazy/safe/rehashed game loops and marketing/shareholder driven development for at least a decade now. The amount of AAA titles built on hype and released broken at launch, with promises of future patches, is too long to list. With some notable exceptions, most of the innovation and interesting game design is done by indie developers and smaller studios. This video sums it up nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q38fjcyP1IQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q38fjcyP1IQ
- deleted 5y ago
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- 34679 5y ago
  If I understood Zuckerberg correctly during his Lex Fridman interview, he's trying to build an entire alternate reality based on this concept of monetizing in game items. He said something along the lines of, "People want to dress nice and look good in person, so why not in a VR meeting?" and then proceeded to talk about charging people for clothes and haircuts in the Metaverse. I have to wonder what sort of scenarios this might lead to, with all of Facebook's corporate partnerships. Are people going to end up having to pay Facebook in order to keep up with dress codes at company meetings? Will hair grow so anyone who doesn't pay Facebook for a haircut shows up looking like a bum? Will clothes become stained and ragged over time? Lex even proposed an alternative of a closet that you only pay for once, but updates with a basic style over time. The suggestion was mostly dismissed by Zuckerberg. Way too late to be talking about video games, this stuff is about to hit many other aspects of human interaction.
  - bitwize 5y ago
    > He said something along the lines of, "People want to dress nice and look good in person, so why not in a VR meeting?" and then proceeded to talk about charging people for clothes and haircuts in the Metaverse. "Her date doesn't look half bad himself. The other girl is a Brandy. Her date is a Clint. Brandy and Clint are both popular, off-the-shelf models. When white trash high school girls are going on a date in the Metaverse, they invariably run down to the computer-games section of the local Wal-Mart and buy a copy of Brandy. The user can select three breast sizes: improbable, impossible, and ludicrous. Brandy has a limited repertoire of facial expressions: cute and pouty; cute and sultry; perky and interested; smiling and receptive; cute and spacy. Her eyelashes are half an inch long, and the software is so cheap that they are rendered as solid ebony chips. When a Brandy flutters her eyelashes, you can almost feel the breeze. Clint is just the male counterpart of Brandy. He is craggy and handsome and has an extremely limited range of facial expressions." --Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash (whence the term "metaverse").
cehrlich 5y ago
I agree with him completely. But I also wonder sometimes: Who is spending money on all of these awful games? There's so much good stuff on Steam, GOG, the Switch eStore, etc. Wonderful games made by people who care, for a fair price, without exploitative monetisation, that I don't feel even remotely tempted to play whatever Ubisoft is currently peddling. Some examples I've played in recent years are Celeste, Into the Breach, Hades, Slay the Spire, Ori and the Blind Forest, etc. These span every genre, and that's not even mentioning the PC back catalog which spans decades. What does it take for those games to win against the lootbox microtransaction garbage?
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  I think it is largely "casual" gamers and or gamers who can't afford the upfront $50 or $20 for a game and are lured in by the "Free" game and then of course addiction kicks in and they spend $100 or more on it. Sad state of affairs, and something that has only gotten worse with app stores. I don't know if it is causal but they certainly haven't helped stop it.
  - paulmd 5y ago
    a skin in some of these games is $10 or more. Even as someone who might conceivably be tempted (I've bought stuff for TF2 before), there's a point where it's just an obviously bad use of your money. 20 bucks is a nice dinner out, I'm not spending that on a skin. Maybe I am just stuck in 2012 but $2-3 is about the limit for me for a skin. "Unusual" hats (particle effects) in TF2 are basically the original NFT, they are unique items with a very limited number in existence, and they are worth more, but I'm not going to pay $10-20 for the same skin as a million other players. Of course that's why they've started tying them to gameplay, like Rainbow 6 Siege and Battlefield 2042 "operators"... it's taken studios a long time but they've finally gotten us to bite on "pay to win" by framing it as player choice. (although I guess DLCs/expansions having OP weapons that beat the base game is nothing new, but charging $10 or $20 a pop for each unit is new.)
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
aidenn0 5y ago
Does anyone have a ballpark for how much a AAA game would retail at to hit similar mean-profitability as a similar game monetized through smaller purchases? It would be nice to know if this number is more like $70 or $250 in terms of "can this be solved" [edit] I suppose it would actually have to be X copies at $Y to be fully specified.
fleddr 5y ago
I agree with the general idea in the article that games should be about fun and great gameplay at its core. What I don't agree with is this simplistic narrative by gamers on how how very evil and greedy game producers are. Because gamers themselves play a significant role in that. As an example, mobile game developers largely switched to in-game purchases not because they want to, instead because it's the only model that works to even get back their investment. Even asking as little as 3-5$ for a high quality game means most people skip it, even though they would love the game and could easily afford it. Apple Arcade is a counter act against this very perverse market dynamic. Gamers created this dynamic. For being cheap. And please don't respond to say that you're not cheap, it's not a personal comment. Next example. As a Battlefield fan, let's take good old ultra evil EA. Let's restrict this to the monetization part. Upon launch, Battlefield typically costs about 60€ where I live. And it doesn't take very long for this to significantly drop. IF you want to go crazy, you can go for some ultimate version, for about 100€. 59.99€ for some mysterious reason is carved in stone. Games have costs this amount (or less) since forever. Inflation seems to have no grip at all on game prices, nor does the price reflect the explosion in complexity, scope and upkeep (servers, anti-cheat, more bugs due to complexity, etc). I guess this is some gamers' "value treshold". A game just can't be priced any higher no matter the value on offer. Let's talk value. If you're a fan of the series, it has almost infinite replay value, as is the point of an online shooter. You can play the game for years, for thousands of hours. People are still playing BF4, which is from 2013. And still gamers complain that it's expensive. The reality is that at least for this game, it's a steal. Extraordinarily cheap highly engaging entertainment in limitless supply. Thousands of hours compared to about the cost of going out for dinner. The low price of 59.99, enforced by irrational gamers, likely is subsidized by optional in-game purchases that do not affect gameplay. In other words, people wanting a fancy soldier's coat in the game are basically paying to keep 59.99 steady, seemingly forever. And in this magic gamers world, ongoing costs somehow don't exist. Basically, any method to monetize is evil. All of this is to say that game producers use the model that works. If you refuse to pay for fair value and sabotage every reasonable method, this is what you get. Gamers need to look in the mirror.
- malka 5y ago
  So you are saying that gamers have managed to get rich people to eat the entirety of the inflation ? Actually, this makes me more ok with the situation.
3np 5y ago
Slighly OT: There is great arc in the recent anime ODDTAXI following the inner monologue of a character that gets sucked into being a whale on a micro-transaction-monetized Zoo game. Highly recommended series that brings up several contemporary issues in a poignant and entertaining way.
eezurr 5y ago
If the video game market is growing, that means the quantity of people playing games is increasing. Perhaps what's really happening is that a new category of players are being captured by the modern video game market, and that 'old school' video games are still alive and well. I mean, there are still great video games being released. Maybe the audience for those hasn't really changed in size as much. A year or two ago, I watched @shroud (on Twitch) play Squad. I'm not a fan of playing shooter games, but wow it was quite a spectacle to watch! There were tiers leaders on your team to report to and receive orders. Anyone could pin enemy locations on the map. Every squad worked as a team to capture territory. The play development was entirely organic. etc. etc. If anything, I hope someone carves out the 'old school' market from the belly of the beast and creates a name or brand that that market can rally around. It seems unnecessary to be concerned by the modern video game market. They are catering to an entirely different type of player. It doesn't matter that it's more profitable if they aren't taking away your audience.
- somedude895 5y ago
  > It seems unnecessary to be concerned by the modern video game market. The problem is that more publishers who hold well beloved IPs are moving in that direction, see for example Bethesda. So I think it's fair to be concerned.
Barrin92 5y ago
It's getting worse and worse in my opinion. There's so many perverse mechanics now, Gacha games being at the forefront of it. Money is always necessary to develop games, but we've gone from a situation were money was a resource to creative genuinely creative works that had merit to a point where the game itself is just a mechanism to create revenue. In the process the games themselves degrade. Addictive mechanisms are added, stories are dragged out or split into DLCs, money distorts competition between players, games are designed to waste the players time, and so forth. And the problem is not just the industry or 'capitalism' or whatever, I think culturally we also have lost the ability to talk about entertainment critically. Games that are glorified slot machines should be called out for it, parents should tell their kids not to play them, and people need to start valuing their attention.
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
Android games for kids are so depressing. I imagine iOS is no better. The games AND game ads are so manipulative, so transactional, unregulated. It does not take long for me to come to the realization: WOW, these games are all employing addiction triggers, are all manipulative, are all without depth, and the two major app stores are 100% in cahoots with these parasites. In the dawn of the TV age there was so much handwringing about children's programming, advertising. Where are the regulators? I'm not even concerned about depictions of violence or sex or drugs or hedonism. What concerns me the most is the outright psychological manipulation of dopamine triggers and other manipulations. And having played a Machine Zone game (thankfully for not a lot of money) I am familiar with the graduated versions of the childrens "programming": illusory emotional investment, bullying, false group dynamics, fake peer pressure, harassment, direct addiction, rapidly changing economics/devaluation, and other tactics to get you to pony up an endless stream of money. Obviously the app stores won't police this to even a small degree, too much 30% sweet commission involved. I'm going to have to setup a retro emulator for my kid so they can play games that aren't riddled with ads and are designed around manipulation.
- vl 5y ago
  On iOS there is Apple Arcade, which has pretty reasonable curated games. My kids only allowed to get games from Apple Arcade for this reasons (except Minecraft and Roblox). Subscription is included anyway with family Apple One umbrella subscription. Roblox is evil of course with it's micro transactions, but simple rule of never buying robux kinda fixes that.
stack_framer 5y ago
I've been mulling over some ideas for a word game, so I recently installed the top 10 grossing word games in the Google Play Store to see what they're like. They're all just garbage, and they all follow the same dark patterns: Incessant ads and prompts to buy in-game items, interspersed with short bits of gameplay here and there.
tasha0663 5y ago
Did he? It sounded more like he said you'll lose the audience if the games aren't actually good. That seems disconnected from monetization.
jmyeet 5y ago
Yeah this was obvious 10 years ago with the rise of mobile gaming. The only difference between mobile gaming and other forms is that the payment infrastructure was so easily accessible and seamless integrated. But 10+ years ago we had Farmville and then on mobile we had thing slike Candy Crush, Clash of Clans and so on. These aren't games. They're A/B tested addiction loops optimized to extract as much money from you as possible. You can see the impact of this on World of Warcraft, which is >17 years old at this point. In its original form it had traditional RPG game loops. Over the years it has become increasingly dominatded by "micro-transactions". These includes services like character transfers, boosts, racce changes and name changes. It also includes a bunch of cosmetics. Some people are most OK with cosmetics for monetization but this still has a problem. It creates an incentive for the game designers to make paid cosmetics better than in-game cosmetics to encourage you to buy them. You see this in WoW where in-game mounts sometimes look like they're made of 7 triangles while store mounts are rendered in semi-translucent 3D with particle effects, modern textures, large triangle counts and special moves. More importantly though cosmetics matter. The ability to flex through cosmetics is a huge motivator to players. The fact that someone can swipe a credit card and devalue in-game accomplishments really destroys any incentives to work towards in-game goals. Outside of FPS games there are depressingly few actual games out there (as opposed to addiction pay-to-win treadmills). I like computer adaptations of board games for this reason because at least these games tend to stay true to being "games".
- zer0-c00l 5y ago
  I haven’t played in a while but Clash of Clans is a pretty decent and fun game underneath all of its addictive patterns. WoW still has some of the best raid encounter design out right now. I’m not disagreeing about the effect of performance marketing/aggressive growth strategies on the industry but this idea that there are “true” games and then everything else is like playing mindless slot machines doesn’t really make sense to me
- mtnygard 5y ago
  I worked with someone in the mobile games industry that called them "stimulators" and "Skinner boxes".
labster 5y ago
> [Civ] has spawned five sequels, the most recent of which was released in 2016. More like one sequel, SMAC, and five remakes.
- antifa 5y ago
  Colonization is kind of a spinoff.
Shadonototra 5y ago
that's how south korea managed to become something in the gaming industry, by using shady monetization schemes they are after NFTs nowadays, the sooner that shit gets banned, the better the western developers will live, not having to kill their brands and reputation to compete with shitty KR and SEA brands in general one can dream

220 points by ChrisWreck 5y ago

Yeah, yeah, so this is the reason Civ 6 use sh*t dlc to cheat money? Don't forget Civ 6's dlc still hold one of the only 7 games that is "overwhelmingly negative". -- From a (still) angry luxury civ6 pre-order player

sstevenshang 5y ago

Excellent article, and the thing is that if you spend any time talking to gamers or on gaming platforms, there’s a near consensus on this attitude against in-game purchases that contribute nothing to gameplay. Even though people still make these purchases, I’d say most of them are conscious of the fact that the current trend is detrimental to gamers. As a side note, the only people pushing for NTFs in games are crypto enthusiasts or profit-seeking actors who do not care about game experience at all. Even gamers who are also into crypto do not advocate for NTF in games. The whole thing is a shit show IMO.

stemlord 5y ago
Do you mean "NFTs"?
- sstevenshang 5y ago
  Yes NFT! I keep making the same typo everywhere.
Bombthecat 5y ago
I think the idea of nfts is cool, imagine star citizen where everyone could model ships and sell them as nft and set a counter of how many they sell (are available) the market should then set the value between work put in to design the ship, sell it and how many are available. So juat like right now, you could buy a ship for 5 dollar, cheaply designed and thousands are available (or endless) or get a unique nice and good looking ship for ome thousand (or more?) because you need to pay the work of one guy for several days and its only one time available. What get right now: bullshit, scams and everything controlled by the company selling the game.
- tasha0663 5y ago
  > imagine star citizen where everyone could model ships and sell them as nft and set a counter of how many they sell (are available) the market should then set the value between work put in to design the ship, sell it and how many are available. Uh, is that fun or am I back in economics class?
  - 83457 5y ago
    Yes
- nest0r 5y ago
  But why would I need NFTs for that?
  - saurik 5y ago
    NFTs (as defined by ERC721 or whatever it is) by and large end up acting as an interoperable standard that allows the assets to be traded on unified exchanges with assets from other games in a way that doesn't require any of the game developers to have to deal with money transmission issues (as they would only ever sell, not buy or facilitate trade). Like in some sense all the NFT is to the game you develop is a minimal external yet-trustable representation of the existence of some in-game asset so people can then go and use all of these systems you don't have to worry about to trade it around and then anyone can provide the receipt back to your game later to be the potentially-new owner.
    - nest0r 5y ago
      Why would any publisher do that? They make their profit on ingame marketplaces by taking a cut of the transaction it just doesn't make any sense.
      - Bombthecat 5y ago
        The publisher can take a cut from minting (creating an nft) and taking a cut from every sale, for example 30 percent first sale and then any other sale 10 percent.
washadjeffmad 5y ago
I'd separate that into two categories: consensus that "withholding content, breaking games up, or locking devices to stores to artificially create redundant sales" and "abusive monetization design where the game is mostly a flimsy pretext for their real product, a gambling addiction simulator" are reviled industry practices. People like their stores and skins, they just don't want to have to gamble to get them or be tricked into pay-to-play. I tried a popular mobile game for the first time recently and almost immediately uninstalled it. As a new player I was overwhelmed with freebies, but every action funneled me back to the store or demanded some kind of worthless interaction. I was horrified at the thought that I might ever allow myself to get used to it and just how many people already had.
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  > People like their stores and skins Two types of people here, too. Those who bought "Horse Armor" and those who thought it was the most ridiculous thing they had ever heard of. Personally I dislike the move towards every game being a live service to justify the presence of a store with skins and emotes and such. I'm getting sick of always online, seasonal event driven live service games where the game balance constantly changes and new stuff is funnelled into it constantly. It is such a relief to me when a game just is released in a mostly final shape, with maybe some QoL patches and an expansion dlc or two. Destiny 2 ruined this for me in a big way with how they are not just introducing new content but also removing old content, content I paid for and now can never access again. It has set a terrible precedent and I'm just not going to use my money on games like that anymore.
  - pom66 5y ago
  - p1necone 5y ago
    > Destiny 2 ruined this for me in a big way with how they are not just introducing new content but also removing old content, content I paid for and now can never access again. There are good reasons why this can be healthy for a game that's constantly evolving with new content and is intended to be live for like a decade+ like Destiny. By sunsetting old content periodically they have a much easier time balancing everything, and making sure the world is consistent. They can also do visual improvements over time without having to polish an ever increasing pile of old content. See also: leagues in Path of Exile, set rotation in trading card games. Destiny is an MMO, you should know going in that it's a live, evolving beast. Not something that you can rely on staying the same forever.
donmcronald 5y ago
I think the NFT thing should be illegal. It adds nothing beyond a false promise that you're buying an "investment" instead of an in game item. IMO it's disgusting to see game companies targeting kids with a scam like that. As for the rest of the article, he could be talking about me. I've basically given up on PC gaming. I used to love gaming and now it feels like a second job. It feels like I'm being forced to "accomplish" a bunch of in game goals because the developer thinks "engaging" me like that is going to lead to a microtransaction. I thought I'm probably just getting older and grumpier, but I bought an Oculus Quest before Christmas and it's been a blast. Games like The Room had me feeling like a kid who just got their first PC game. I think a lot of it has to do with VR being a new platform and there's less focus on developers squeezing every penny out of you and more incentive for them to build small, fun games that help discover what makes sense in VR. The craziest part is that I've spent several hundred dollars on VR games in a few months which is more than I've spent on PC games in the last 5 years combined. I know it's popular to trash Meta/Facebook, but I think they did a really good job of pricing VR games. It's <$30 on the high end and they have frequent sales, but the sales aren't such deep discounts that I feel bad for buying something at full price. I also think microtransactions can make sense. GGG did a good job with Path of Exile. I've played that game on and off and every time I pick it back up I play for a bit and if my stash starts getting disorganized with items that have a convenience stash tab as a microtransaction I'll buy that stash tab. It's always after I've spent a weekend playing and it's only $20, so I don't feel like I've gotten ripped off or forced into buying something. I've probably spent twice as much on that game as any other in recent memory.
- prox 5y ago
  I guess it very much depends what kind of games you play. These are the games I enjoy : Rimworld, Valheim, Police Simulator, Project Zomboid, Space Engineers, KSP 1, Factorio, Skyrim, Mount and Blade 2 : Bannerlord. None of them have significant money sinks with add on purchases. Most are modable, adding to their appeal and longevity.
  - donmcronald 5y ago
    You're right! Rimworld and Factorio have been on my Steam wishlist for a while.

Chris2048 5y ago

Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30497881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30497881

lewispollard 5y ago

It's a bit rich, given there are 14 paid DLCs for the latest Civ game, and they all have pretty negative reviews for being too expensive while adding little to the gameplay.

StanislavPetrov 5y ago
Ironically, I'd rather play a game where the DLC didn't add much to gameplay. If I purchase a game, I want to be able to enjoy the full experience of that game without being forced to purchase DLC. If they release DLC that is little more than different skins or supplemental music, I don't feel I've lost out on anything by not purchasing it. On the contrary, if they release a DLC that substantively changes the game and, even worse, makes it incompatible with the original version for saved games or multiplayer, then I'm more or less obligated to purchase it if I want to keep enjoying the game to its full potential.
kevingadd 5y ago
Is Sid actually involved in the Civ games anymore? As far as I know he hasn't been directly involved in that franchise for years.
- usrusr 5y ago
  It's still carrying his name and he is still creative director (of the company, not of the game) so it doesn't seem unfair to be to call him out on it. Even if he is not much involved (which I believe to be accurate)
EdwardDiego 5y ago
Yep, the DLC model can be quite obnoxious. Paradox has gone hard on DLCs and cosmetic DLCs are all fine and dandy, but some of the features locked into other DLCs (No espionage in Hearts of Iron 4 without a DLC, no amphibious tanks without a different DLC) are, IMO, core gameplay components that shouldn't require payment. But I was happy to pay for a DLC that gave Commonwealth countries unique focuses.
- 5y ago

fattless 5y ago

The worst part of this trend to me is how many games sacrifice their identity to fit the mold that is now most profitable, it feels so soulless. This is all from my own experience/memory. Every game needs live service, seasons, and a battle pass. While I appreciate that it can keep the game fresh and evolving over time, I think a lot of times its harmful. Sometimes a relatively simple game is blown out of proportion over time and id almost rather a stagnant game. Furthermore, gameplay can suffer too. In my opinion R6 siege started really strong, but has gone downhill recently, most obviously in operator design. Real power creep is sometimes an issue as well, somewhat recently I remember there were one or two operators added that felt like almost direct upgrades to base game ones. In its case, both the art style and operator design suffered from being stretched out for so long. Or RDR2, who sells most of the content through their premium currency and whose movement between the single player and online is so drastically different that fights online look like smash bros melee matches with frantic strafing and rolling. Compare this to titanfall 2’s design, which has remained stagnant (because it was killed a long time ago), but incredibly successful maintaining a large player base to this day. Cod and pubg have sacrificed their art style and aesthetic, MW went from “realistic” tactical characters to jigsaw puppets and neon, out of place outfits. It’s like power creep, but for ridiculousness, skins have to get crazier and crazier because sometimes it keeps people buying them because its funny. It fit in fortnite because it was cartoonish and ridiculous from the beginning, but through MW and CW lifespan you can see the art style gradually decay. These game aren’t really meant to be taken seriously, but it always kinda put me off. Not necessarily making an argument about my taste, but rather how the games stray more and more from their original vision, driven by micro transactions. Battlefield has thrown out their traditional classes for specialists following in r6 and other hero shooters footsteps, part of me always kinda felt like it was to sell skins for each specialist, but I might be wrong here. This isnt the biggest deal, especially not within the games industry, but frustrating to see innovation slowly be stamped back into the mold. There are many games that hold true to their visions or fill these voids, but the state of AAA gaming and how it molds to the market is a little disappointing to me.

ranger207 5y ago
I agree. At this point AAA games are a genera unto themselves, whether they're a shooter, adventure game, sports game, whatever. They all share the same elements you outlined: seasons, battlepass, in-game currency, microtransactions for the smallest items, and game design that puts the focus of the entire game on those elements. AAA games are made with massive budgets and are designed to be very attractive to play, to the point of addiction, but I simply can't get into them because of the genera elements.

time_to_smile 5y ago

I think the real issue is that we've just left a brief period where the best way to succeed in the market was to make good games. Anyone who grew up playing arcade games knows that, for the vast majority of cases, the pre-console arcade world was about finding the best way to keep you feeding quarters to a machine. Difficult, almost beating the boss, but ultimately simple games ruled the day. Some are classics now but many were very meh. The early home console years, when reviews were still hard to come by and rentals weren't a thing yet, were flooded with tons of pure trash games. Everyone knows how awful any licensed game was, but it didn't matter because all they had to do was to get you (or more often parents/grandparents) to buy the game. By the time you got home and realized the game was garbage it was already too late. I remember owning far more horrible games as a kid than good ones. The late 1990s and early 2000s were a great time for gaming because it was much easier to determine if a game was quality or not before buying, and for a brief window of time the only really great way to make money was to just make a compelling game that got good reviews. We've since seen gaming become a major industry, where heavy marketing can play just as big a factor as initial reviews. With the massive growth of online gaming and digital downloads it's much easier to make a game that is really about a million microtransaction (remember when people used to think that would save the internet?) The truth is games have always been structured in a way to optimizer revenue, it's just that we remember a period when the best way to make money in a game was to actually make a game good.

ece 5y ago
I think this is an underappreciated point, consoles and PC stores have been able to maintain some quality, but I doubt most people playing gacha games today know they're gacha, much less what the odds on pulls are. In moderation this is all ok, but getting there as an industry seems tough on mobile. There are more good ports than ever, especially for indies on mobile, which is a good start.

imiric 5y ago

Sid is a few years too late with the warning. Gameplay and original game design have taken a backseat to increasingly hostile monetization schemes, lazy/safe/rehashed game loops and marketing/shareholder driven development for at least a decade now. The amount of AAA titles built on hype and released broken at launch, with promises of future patches, is too long to list. With some notable exceptions, most of the innovation and interesting game design is done by indie developers and smaller studios. This video sums it up nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q38fjcyP1IQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q38fjcyP1IQ

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
34679 5y ago
If I understood Zuckerberg correctly during his Lex Fridman interview, he's trying to build an entire alternate reality based on this concept of monetizing in game items. He said something along the lines of, "People want to dress nice and look good in person, so why not in a VR meeting?" and then proceeded to talk about charging people for clothes and haircuts in the Metaverse. I have to wonder what sort of scenarios this might lead to, with all of Facebook's corporate partnerships. Are people going to end up having to pay Facebook in order to keep up with dress codes at company meetings? Will hair grow so anyone who doesn't pay Facebook for a haircut shows up looking like a bum? Will clothes become stained and ragged over time? Lex even proposed an alternative of a closet that you only pay for once, but updates with a basic style over time. The suggestion was mostly dismissed by Zuckerberg. Way too late to be talking about video games, this stuff is about to hit many other aspects of human interaction.
- bitwize 5y ago
  > He said something along the lines of, "People want to dress nice and look good in person, so why not in a VR meeting?" and then proceeded to talk about charging people for clothes and haircuts in the Metaverse. "Her date doesn't look half bad himself. The other girl is a Brandy. Her date is a Clint. Brandy and Clint are both popular, off-the-shelf models. When white trash high school girls are going on a date in the Metaverse, they invariably run down to the computer-games section of the local Wal-Mart and buy a copy of Brandy. The user can select three breast sizes: improbable, impossible, and ludicrous. Brandy has a limited repertoire of facial expressions: cute and pouty; cute and sultry; perky and interested; smiling and receptive; cute and spacy. Her eyelashes are half an inch long, and the software is so cheap that they are rendered as solid ebony chips. When a Brandy flutters her eyelashes, you can almost feel the breeze. Clint is just the male counterpart of Brandy. He is craggy and handsome and has an extremely limited range of facial expressions." --Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash (whence the term "metaverse").

cehrlich 5y ago

I agree with him completely. But I also wonder sometimes: Who is spending money on all of these awful games? There's so much good stuff on Steam, GOG, the Switch eStore, etc. Wonderful games made by people who care, for a fair price, without exploitative monetisation, that I don't feel even remotely tempted to play whatever Ubisoft is currently peddling. Some examples I've played in recent years are Celeste, Into the Breach, Hades, Slay the Spire, Ori and the Blind Forest, etc. These span every genre, and that's not even mentioning the PC back catalog which spans decades. What does it take for those games to win against the lootbox microtransaction garbage?

gameswithgo 5y ago
I think it is largely "casual" gamers and or gamers who can't afford the upfront $50 or $20 for a game and are lured in by the "Free" game and then of course addiction kicks in and they spend $100 or more on it. Sad state of affairs, and something that has only gotten worse with app stores. I don't know if it is causal but they certainly haven't helped stop it.
- paulmd 5y ago
  a skin in some of these games is $10 or more. Even as someone who might conceivably be tempted (I've bought stuff for TF2 before), there's a point where it's just an obviously bad use of your money. 20 bucks is a nice dinner out, I'm not spending that on a skin. Maybe I am just stuck in 2012 but $2-3 is about the limit for me for a skin. "Unusual" hats (particle effects) in TF2 are basically the original NFT, they are unique items with a very limited number in existence, and they are worth more, but I'm not going to pay $10-20 for the same skin as a million other players. Of course that's why they've started tying them to gameplay, like Rainbow 6 Siege and Battlefield 2042 "operators"... it's taken studios a long time but they've finally gotten us to bite on "pay to win" by framing it as player choice. (although I guess DLCs/expansions having OP weapons that beat the base game is nothing new, but charging $10 or $20 a pop for each unit is new.)
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago

aidenn0 5y ago

Does anyone have a ballpark for how much a AAA game would retail at to hit similar mean-profitability as a similar game monetized through smaller purchases? It would be nice to know if this number is more like $70 or $250 in terms of "can this be solved" [edit] I suppose it would actually have to be X copies at $Y to be fully specified.

fleddr 5y ago

I agree with the general idea in the article that games should be about fun and great gameplay at its core. What I don't agree with is this simplistic narrative by gamers on how how very evil and greedy game producers are. Because gamers themselves play a significant role in that. As an example, mobile game developers largely switched to in-game purchases not because they want to, instead because it's the only model that works to even get back their investment. Even asking as little as 3-5$ for a high quality game means most people skip it, even though they would love the game and could easily afford it. Apple Arcade is a counter act against this very perverse market dynamic. Gamers created this dynamic. For being cheap. And please don't respond to say that you're not cheap, it's not a personal comment. Next example. As a Battlefield fan, let's take good old ultra evil EA. Let's restrict this to the monetization part. Upon launch, Battlefield typically costs about 60€ where I live. And it doesn't take very long for this to significantly drop. IF you want to go crazy, you can go for some ultimate version, for about 100€. 59.99€ for some mysterious reason is carved in stone. Games have costs this amount (or less) since forever. Inflation seems to have no grip at all on game prices, nor does the price reflect the explosion in complexity, scope and upkeep (servers, anti-cheat, more bugs due to complexity, etc). I guess this is some gamers' "value treshold". A game just can't be priced any higher no matter the value on offer. Let's talk value. If you're a fan of the series, it has almost infinite replay value, as is the point of an online shooter. You can play the game for years, for thousands of hours. People are still playing BF4, which is from 2013. And still gamers complain that it's expensive. The reality is that at least for this game, it's a steal. Extraordinarily cheap highly engaging entertainment in limitless supply. Thousands of hours compared to about the cost of going out for dinner. The low price of 59.99, enforced by irrational gamers, likely is subsidized by optional in-game purchases that do not affect gameplay. In other words, people wanting a fancy soldier's coat in the game are basically paying to keep 59.99 steady, seemingly forever. And in this magic gamers world, ongoing costs somehow don't exist. Basically, any method to monetize is evil. All of this is to say that game producers use the model that works. If you refuse to pay for fair value and sabotage every reasonable method, this is what you get. Gamers need to look in the mirror.

malka 5y ago
So you are saying that gamers have managed to get rich people to eat the entirety of the inflation ? Actually, this makes me more ok with the situation.

3np 5y ago

Slighly OT: There is great arc in the recent anime ODDTAXI following the inner monologue of a character that gets sucked into being a whale on a micro-transaction-monetized Zoo game. Highly recommended series that brings up several contemporary issues in a poignant and entertaining way.

eezurr 5y ago

If the video game market is growing, that means the quantity of people playing games is increasing. Perhaps what's really happening is that a new category of players are being captured by the modern video game market, and that 'old school' video games are still alive and well. I mean, there are still great video games being released. Maybe the audience for those hasn't really changed in size as much. A year or two ago, I watched @shroud (on Twitch) play Squad. I'm not a fan of playing shooter games, but wow it was quite a spectacle to watch! There were tiers leaders on your team to report to and receive orders. Anyone could pin enemy locations on the map. Every squad worked as a team to capture territory. The play development was entirely organic. etc. etc. If anything, I hope someone carves out the 'old school' market from the belly of the beast and creates a name or brand that that market can rally around. It seems unnecessary to be concerned by the modern video game market. They are catering to an entirely different type of player. It doesn't matter that it's more profitable if they aren't taking away your audience.

somedude895 5y ago
> It seems unnecessary to be concerned by the modern video game market. The problem is that more publishers who hold well beloved IPs are moving in that direction, see for example Bethesda. So I think it's fair to be concerned.

Barrin92 5y ago

It's getting worse and worse in my opinion. There's so many perverse mechanics now, Gacha games being at the forefront of it. Money is always necessary to develop games, but we've gone from a situation were money was a resource to creative genuinely creative works that had merit to a point where the game itself is just a mechanism to create revenue. In the process the games themselves degrade. Addictive mechanisms are added, stories are dragged out or split into DLCs, money distorts competition between players, games are designed to waste the players time, and so forth. And the problem is not just the industry or 'capitalism' or whatever, I think culturally we also have lost the ability to talk about entertainment critically. Games that are glorified slot machines should be called out for it, parents should tell their kids not to play them, and people need to start valuing their attention.

AtlasBarfed 5y ago

Android games for kids are so depressing. I imagine iOS is no better. The games AND game ads are so manipulative, so transactional, unregulated. It does not take long for me to come to the realization: WOW, these games are all employing addiction triggers, are all manipulative, are all without depth, and the two major app stores are 100% in cahoots with these parasites. In the dawn of the TV age there was so much handwringing about children's programming, advertising. Where are the regulators? I'm not even concerned about depictions of violence or sex or drugs or hedonism. What concerns me the most is the outright psychological manipulation of dopamine triggers and other manipulations. And having played a Machine Zone game (thankfully for not a lot of money) I am familiar with the graduated versions of the childrens "programming": illusory emotional investment, bullying, false group dynamics, fake peer pressure, harassment, direct addiction, rapidly changing economics/devaluation, and other tactics to get you to pony up an endless stream of money. Obviously the app stores won't police this to even a small degree, too much 30% sweet commission involved. I'm going to have to setup a retro emulator for my kid so they can play games that aren't riddled with ads and are designed around manipulation.

vl 5y ago
On iOS there is Apple Arcade, which has pretty reasonable curated games. My kids only allowed to get games from Apple Arcade for this reasons (except Minecraft and Roblox). Subscription is included anyway with family Apple One umbrella subscription. Roblox is evil of course with it's micro transactions, but simple rule of never buying robux kinda fixes that.

stack_framer 5y ago

I've been mulling over some ideas for a word game, so I recently installed the top 10 grossing word games in the Google Play Store to see what they're like. They're all just garbage, and they all follow the same dark patterns: Incessant ads and prompts to buy in-game items, interspersed with short bits of gameplay here and there.

tasha0663 5y ago

Did he? It sounded more like he said you'll lose the audience if the games aren't actually good. That seems disconnected from monetization.

jmyeet 5y ago

Yeah this was obvious 10 years ago with the rise of mobile gaming. The only difference between mobile gaming and other forms is that the payment infrastructure was so easily accessible and seamless integrated. But 10+ years ago we had Farmville and then on mobile we had thing slike Candy Crush, Clash of Clans and so on. These aren't games. They're A/B tested addiction loops optimized to extract as much money from you as possible. You can see the impact of this on World of Warcraft, which is >17 years old at this point. In its original form it had traditional RPG game loops. Over the years it has become increasingly dominatded by "micro-transactions". These includes services like character transfers, boosts, racce changes and name changes. It also includes a bunch of cosmetics. Some people are most OK with cosmetics for monetization but this still has a problem. It creates an incentive for the game designers to make paid cosmetics better than in-game cosmetics to encourage you to buy them. You see this in WoW where in-game mounts sometimes look like they're made of 7 triangles while store mounts are rendered in semi-translucent 3D with particle effects, modern textures, large triangle counts and special moves. More importantly though cosmetics matter. The ability to flex through cosmetics is a huge motivator to players. The fact that someone can swipe a credit card and devalue in-game accomplishments really destroys any incentives to work towards in-game goals. Outside of FPS games there are depressingly few actual games out there (as opposed to addiction pay-to-win treadmills). I like computer adaptations of board games for this reason because at least these games tend to stay true to being "games".

zer0-c00l 5y ago
I haven’t played in a while but Clash of Clans is a pretty decent and fun game underneath all of its addictive patterns. WoW still has some of the best raid encounter design out right now. I’m not disagreeing about the effect of performance marketing/aggressive growth strategies on the industry but this idea that there are “true” games and then everything else is like playing mindless slot machines doesn’t really make sense to me
mtnygard 5y ago
I worked with someone in the mobile games industry that called them "stimulators" and "Skinner boxes".

labster 5y ago

> [Civ] has spawned five sequels, the most recent of which was released in 2016. More like one sequel, SMAC, and five remakes.

antifa 5y ago
Colonization is kind of a spinoff.

Shadonototra 5y ago

that's how south korea managed to become something in the gaming industry, by using shady monetization schemes they are after NFTs nowadays, the sooner that shit gets banned, the better the western developers will live, not having to kill their brands and reputation to compete with shitty KR and SEA brands in general one can dream