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Tinder’s pricing algorithm can charge users up to 5x more for same service
- luis8 5y agoUber does the same thing. I noticed this one time when a friend was asking for the same ride. He has a basic credit card and i have a platinum amex card. My ride was 40% higher for the same trip
- Razengan 5y agoHow the fuck is that even legal?
- bogota 5y agoBecause it’s likely not true or the full story.
- luis8 5y agoWhy would i lie? I'm pretty sure they also use my destinations to asses my income and factor that into how much i'm willing to pay for a ride
- b0afc375b5 5y agoIs it possible that since multiple users requested a ride with the same source and destination that it triggered "surge" pricing?
- luis8 5y agoIt could but it was the other way around though. He requested after me so we used his ride instead. I guess the demand went down after I requested it? who knows
- bogota 5y agoReach out to any news organization than. They love selling uber is evil and this would be breaking news for them. I don’t believe you because I hardly believe anything i read in comment sections. People are normally under informed or being malicious.
- luis8 5y agoI did a Google search and Forbes and other sites goes into this matter. I could say the same thing about you and that you deny it because you somehow benefits from it. But in any case I still use it because I find it useful regardless of this custom pricing
- shalmanese 5y agoPeople have been accusing Uber of this ever since it started and Uber has categorically denied that it's doing this [1] "We may price routes differently based on our understanding of demand patterns, not individual riders." And this entire time, nobody has generated definitive proof that this is happening which is a photo of two phones side by side going to the same location listing different prices despite how easy such proof would be to generate. It's the same as the whole "Yelp deletes reviews if you don't buy ads" or "Facebook is listening to your microphone and serving you up ads". Proof is easy to generate and yet it never appears, only endlessly more anecdotes and speculation. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/13/uber-lyft-prices-personalized-data https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/13/uber-l...
- DoneWithAllThat 5y agoWhy would it not be? I’m not trying to be snarky. Under what law would that be illegal? Charging different people different prices for the same thing is perfectly legal so long as it’s not due to that person being a member of a protected class (race, sex, etc.).
- BoorishBears 5y agoCertain cards are very popular with certain demographics. I would not do something as stupid using cards to discriminate pricing. Now of course, we live in a society where the courts would never actually make that link, so you can argue I'd be a bad leader leaving money on the table like that... But I'd say that's more a problem with our system than anything.
- luis8 5y agoI'm pretty sure it is more than that. I mentioned in a comment below this one that they probably use my destinations as a proxy to asses my income and how much I'm willing to pay for a ride
- nikanj 5y agoYour legal case would pretty fast turn into bizarre hate speech: ”They’re charging people using the costco mastercard more!” ”Yeah, and?” ”Well, everyone knows that the jews love costco, and you can’t discriminate against an ethnic minority!”
- BoorishBears 5y agoWhy? Cash app targets underbanked people... guess what demographics are underbanked: https://www.bcg.com/publications/2021/unbanked-and-underbanked-households-breaking-down-the-myths-towards-racial-equity-in-banking https://www.bcg.com/publications/2021/unbanked-and-underbank... So guess who they market heavily to: https://trapital.co/2020/03/18/how-hip-hop-helped-cash-app-grow-faster/ https://trapital.co/2020/03/18/how-hip-hop-helped-cash-app-g... It's not racist, but it does make people look at uncomfortable truths about equality...
- greatpostman 5y agoTinder is basically 5/100 guys getting all the matches per 90/100 women.
- anonporridge 5y agoI believe old OkCupid data (which has since been deleted from their blog) found exactly this. In short, males looking for females are very even in their rating of women along a bell curve. Females looking for males heavily skew towards the top 20% of males, while considering the bottom 80% "below average". Tinder, and every other dating app, absolutely take advantage of this deep truth of human psychology and milk the bottom echelon of desperate men for every penny they can.
- greatpostman 5y agoYeah, basically they make you pay to tip the odds so in your favor that you might overcome that terrible ratio I quoted
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 5y agoI'm actually surprised that dating apps aren't doing more with monetization opportunities. There are plenty of whales out there who would be happy to deploy their disposable income for mating opportunities. Why not let someone spend $1000 a day to be the top displayed profile in a city for an entire day?
- anonporridge 5y agoThose people aren't using Tinder. There are "dating" sites that specialize in connecting wealthy/successful people (mostly older men) with young, beautiful people (mostly women). They do charge quite a bit and make bank.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 5y agoI'm not an expert at that particular area, but my anecdotal impression was that high-end matchmaking services (say 50-100k to find a life partner) were fairly underwhelming. Or are you talking about the whole sugar dating world here?
- Beaver117 5y agoOf course, also Tinder's profit is directly dependant on you not finding a partner, so you continue to use their service.
- briga 5y agoThis is really apparent in their “Top Picks” feature. They give you a list of people the algorithm thinks you will like, but you’re only allowed to check out one of them in free mode. Even though apparently these people are a great match for you they do not show up in the course of regular swiping. Which makes it obvious that Tinder is keeping a holdout set of people it thinks you are compatible with and never shows them to you. Using that app is akin to using a slot machine, and I suspect the algorithms they use for doling out rewards are very similar.
- mushyhammer 5y agoI think you got that wrong. Top Picks appear to be people who are picked the most, not because I would personally like them. Most of the time I like none of them even if they obviously have a “good” profile (sexy photos, no bio)
- climb_stealth 5y agoFunny you say that. When I was using Tinder I assumed that sexy photos and no profile description or bio were bots or scams. I completely ignored them. Also, if someone can't be bothered to even write a single word. Meh.
- williamscales 5y agoYou must consider, it does telegraph a certain desperation to bother to write a bio. Tinder is 100% about looks.
- mushyhammer 5y agoI wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s 100% about looks. I skip women without a bio because they’re usually the most boring.
- moneywoes 5y agoDoes paying for plus even make a difference?
- t-writescode 5y agoYou get to see people who have "liked" you, so you can like them back directly. For guys, who generally get *nowhere near* the number of likes as women, this can help them find people that actually want to meet them. Or, they could use one of those automated finger-swiping things, like some guys tend to do.
- cheschire 5y agoYou mean a hotdog on a low speed drill?
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 5y agoDisclaimer: I think Tinder is a rent-extracting garbage app, BUT, philosophically speaking, why is dynamic pricing unfair? If the algorithm detects that based on your biography, location and usage patterns, you would keep using this service even if it charged you 5x as much, isn't that just the market becoming more efficient?
- car_analogy 5y ago> market becoming more efficient You mean a company becoming more efficient at extracting money from their un-informed customers. A company finding new ways to leverage their market power, position, and information asymmetry.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 5y agoWhy is that bad? That's how free markets work. Note, the post this is a reply to originally said "You mean a company becoming more efficient at extracting money from customers".
- jraby3 5y agoIs it really a free market? Doesn’t the network effect create a monopoly?
- iratewizard 5y agoMatch group (which owns many of the major dating apps) definitely performs anti-competitive and borderline illegal behavior. But tinder is far from a monopoly. The fact that they own 22 dating app companies is testament to how easy it is to break into that market.
- bradlys 5y agoIt’s a testament as to how easy to break in. It is not a testament as to how easy it is to turn a profit. These companies get bought by match because they’re not super profitable and able to compete until end of time against match.
- thanhhaimai 5y agoNot a Tinder user or investor, but this makes me curious. Why is it okay for insurance companies to sell me products with hyper-personalized pricing (often based on sex, age, and race), but it's not okay for Tinder or other tech companies to do so?
- hda2 5y agoBecause sex, age, and race are statistically significant factors in how much the insurance companies will pay out for each demographic. Personalized pricing for a digital service with a more-or-less constant cost-per-user doesn't make sense here (unless you want to maximize profits by unfairly discriminating against certain demographics).
- smt88 5y agoIn the US, insurance rates certainly cannot vary by race.
- rahimnathwani 5y agoMost people are fine with movie theatres charging children less than they charge adults. Is that 'unfairly discriminating against a certain demographic'?
- gruez 5y ago>Is that 'unfairly discriminating against a certain demographic'? I suspect it gets a free pass because the demographic being discriminated against is better off (eg. adults who tend to have more disposable income). If it were the other way around (eg. software companies charging elderly people more because they don't know any better), there's going to be more backlash.
- chii 5y agoIt's not that they're better-off, but rather that the movie theater discovered that a movie the child wants to see often forces the parents with them. By discounting the child, they increased the sale of at least 1 ticket for the parent, and therefore, they make more money. If the child wasn't discounted, the parent might choose an alternative source of entertainment (because face it, adults tend not to want to watch children movies) and the theater lose out on that adult ticket! this is why you don't see a discount for couples usually - coz they were going to pay even without the discount.
- roenxi 5y ago1. It isn't obvious to me that dating for older people is to be treated as the same service as dating for younger people. There are profound differences. Dating as a 20 year old female is a completely different situation to dating as a 40 year old of either gender. 2. Even if it is the same service, what is the problem with Tinder charging some people an extra $20? This isn't an essential service in any way. 3. foundation.mozilla.org ? Why is the Mozilla foundation of all groups investing time into this sort of advocacy?
- throwawaynay 5y ago
- tmp_anon_22 5y agoTinder doesn't sell dating. I'm not sure exactly what their product is, but its more to do with self-worth, impulse control and sexual gratification - even if some of their matches do produce relationships. The predatory monetization scheme makes more sense in that context.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoTinder sells access to women. It’s the online version of “ladies night”, where women get into the bar for free while men do not.
- mattnewton 5y ago> Even if it is the same service, what is the problem with Tinder charging some people an extra $20? This isn't an essential service in any way. I am not a lawyer, but I do know age is a protected class in the US. It could be seen as age based discrimination. My understanding is that protected classes are the same criteria we use to, for example make it illegal to have a separate price for different races. Edit: as the article mentions, they have already been hit with a lawsuit about this issue on these grounds before https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/tinders-24-million-deal-to-end-age-discrimination-suit-undone https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/tinders-24-million... Though sex is also a protected class and plenty of establishments have preferential rates for ladies nights, so I am not sure how black and white the law really is here; that particular issue has a pretty back-and-forth history as far as I can tell, and maybe this would similarly have some kind of carve out? Definitely seems like a very large legal risk. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladies%27_night#:~:text=Ladies'%20nights%20have%20been%20found,and%20no%20damage%20to%20himself https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladies%27_night#:~:text=Ladi....
- piannucci 5y agoeHarmony's algo may be less extreme but they do this too.
- navi0 5y agoIs Mozilla’s new strategy to raise its profile and gain Firefox users to become ProPublica? (I’m a FF fan but this seems off brand to me)
- vermarish 5y agoI am equally surprised, but it's still in line with their manifesto. Excerpt: > We are committed to an internet that includes all the peoples of the earth — where a person’s demographic characteristics do not determine their online access, opportunities, or quality of experience.
- gnabgib 5y agoThey did update their pricing as a result of this[0] (article has the same date). Not that I condone their old model, but it's a shame the Mozilla article wasn't updated given their call to action is unnecessary. [0]: https://www.consumerreports.org/consumer-protection/tinder-is-phasing-out-higher-prices-for-users-ages-29-plus-a3881901881/ https://www.consumerreports.org/consumer-protection/tinder-i...
- grishka 5y agoTinder is so chock-full of dark patterns and in-your-face modals that I'm not surprised, at all.
- hendry 5y agoThought Mozilla was making a Web browser
- crocodiletears 5y agoThat's alright, we're all taken for a ride every now and again.
- rmason 5y agoThey're basically applying enterprise level pricing to a consumer product. You ever try and check the price for a SaaS service only to find that you have to contact them? They will explain they need answers to a bunch of questions to know if the product is a good fit for you. What they're really trying to do is figure out the max you will pay.
- foolfoolz 5y agoit also feels a lot like haggling where knowing the price is key. without knowing what everyone else is paying you don’t know if it’s a good deal or not
- blfr 5y agoI worked for a company like that. We had one pricing for virtually everyone but our biggest and most prestigious clients. We even used to have it in the clear on the website in the beginning. It's just that the product was somewhat complicated and the pricing form converted better when it generated leads for the sales team than when casual browsers bounced off it.
- antman 5y agoThat is not so much Enterprise marketing looks more like the Turkish street market carpet pricing, but without getting a carpet.
- Razengan 5y agoTinder’s parent Match is part of the coalition against Apple’s control over In-app Purchase payment system, very likely because they want to circumvent Apple’s customer-friendly refund process when an app rips them off.
- bradlys 5y agoThis will likely become more normal over time. No one really cares because it’s mostly men who are losing their money. And rich men aren’t often on these apps - so it’s only the working class that is losing. So, working class men are getting screwed over by a corporation? No, you don’t say.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y agoPrice discrimination is illegal if it's on the basis of gender, race, religion, or nationality. Tinder isn't charging men more however - just older people. It's unlikely age-based price discrimination will ever be made illegal, because it would effectively outlaw senior discounts.
- Wiseacre 5y agoTell that to all the entertainment venues that offer discounts or no cover for women.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- bradlys 5y agoAt least outside the US it was a thing: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8618343/Tinder-Plus-costs-youre-straight-man-aged-50-investigation-finds.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8618343/Tinder-Plus... There's some anecdotes online that it used to charge more for men. I don't know if all those people didn't live in the US.
- morpheuskafka 5y agoHow does this work with the thing in iOS where you can just go to settings and change to any available subscription without going through the app UI? Don’t you have to give iTunes Connect the list of all subscription tiers and prices?
- Razengan 5y agoCan this be the basis of a class action lawsuit by the affected demographics?
- stadium 5y agoIf your phone is a recent or expensive model, the subscription prices for apps may be higher, or the discounts lower, because you presumably have more disposable income.
- blfr 5y agoTinder is so extremely effective that it's almost certainly underpriced at all of these levels purely because of perception. I only had gold once and bought a couple of boosts but for over two months I would fill my calendar with 2-4 dates a week at something close to Spotify sub ($20/mo iirc). There is no other way to meet women this efficiently. And it was a lot of fun, too. It took out all the slog out of dating. It would be a steal at $100/mo.
- bitcharmer 5y agoThis is very misleading. The experience for overwhelming majority of men is quite the opposite. You have to be really good looking to be successful on Tinder; that's what it boils down to. For the >90% of blokes Tinder is a scam.
- nikanj 5y agoThis is not how it works for the majority of people. Not saying it doesn’t reward winners handsomely, but not everyone is a winner
- numbers_guy 5y agoIn my experience, the types of women I am looking for would never use Tinder, so although you get more matches it is still completely useless. You have to really question what kind of young woman is desperate enough to meet a man that she'd use an app, ... not the kind I'm interested in.
- blfr 5y agoI also expected a certain kind of woman and was suprised how varied users on Tinder were. Of course there were quite a few women with extensive dating experience and, let's say, Instagram tastes (not that there's anything wrong with that) but I also met a very sweet vet who kept sending me dog vids from her clinic, a movie production nerd (making them, not memorizing imdb), a depressive poet with a keen sense of style, and an MD for whom this was like a third real first date in her life. Occasionally, the photos were a bit old (pre-pandemic) or very flattering, one might have been a tad unstable, but in general, they were just normal and nice.
- bryanrasmussen 5y agoI seem to remember articles from lots of sources, I believe Stratechery was one, about a decade ago advocating for this kind of pricing scheme of using analytics to figure out the price that people will pay and charging them that. A lot of the examples was based on income level which of course made me think, hey here I've struggled all my life to get into the middle class and now they want to change up how you pay for things so at the end of the month I can buy the same amount of things and have as much left over as when I was poor. Anyway I am against it, find it immoral, and think the EU should have some regulations forbidding it.
- thatguy0900 5y agoThe funny thing is if everyone decides you can pay more because you make more you could well end up with less money than if you had a worse job.
- genewitch 5y ago"Move to Silicon Valley", they said. "You'll make more money", they said.
- vermarish 5y agoThe report from Mozilla argues that (paraphrasing:) it would be both technically and legally messy to try and regulate the details of pricing algorithms. It is much more feasible to introduce privacy laws so that the use of a consumer's data for personalized pricing is transparent, fair, and lawful. (page 27 of the original report [0]) I feel very cynical about this. The best solution they can come up with is to let the GDPR deal with it? It's hard to believe that unchecking 5 boxes every time I visit a new site truly aligns with their goal of transparency. The researchers suspect that a lot of personalized pricing schemes are in violation of the GDPR, but I just don't know what enforcing compliance will change. Coincidentally, I just started writing an essay in my ethics class on methods to deal with unethical algorithmic decision making. I'm very happy to discuss this. [0] https://www.consumersinternational.org/media/369078/personalised_pricing_15_02_2022.pdf https://www.consumersinternational.org/media/369078/personal...
- jandorn 5y agoBased on EU Charter of Fundamental Rights. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited. Is this then legal?