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This map is waaaaay out of date. There have been attacks all over the country today. Explosions in Odessa, Kyiv, Kharkiv, Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mariupol, and

This map is waaaaay out of date. There have been attacks all over the country today. Explosions in Odessa, Kyiv, Kharkiv, Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mariupol, and more. Fucking everywhere. My friends and loved ones woke up to explosions. My employees woke up to explosions. Many can't leave because the roads are massively congested. Cash machines have stopped operating. The shops are running out of food. There are no flights. None. All the airports are under missile fire. They've raised the Russian flag over buildings. This is all out war. Evidently, sanctions do jack shit. --- You will all see videos of this, and so will your children's children. Here's one for a start. https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1496805801628995587 https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1496805801628995587 это просто пиздец.

andrewshadura 5y ago
Well said, пиздец it is.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
> Evidently, sanctions do jack shit. The THREAT of sanctions hasn't had the desired effect, and if they are enacted, they will take a while before their effect can be felt by the people involved - weeks, months, I don't know. And if they maintain a good relationship with China they may be able to avoid it entirely - although China may then risk its relationship with the rest of the world, if it's found out they're funneling money to Russia.
- yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
  What are you suggesting? That I should be patient and trust the system? The system has failed. People are dying. This is our Hitler. Diplomacy was never an option. Putin recorded his declaration of war before telling the world that diplomacy was still an option. He will only be stopped by swift and decisive military action from the entirety of the free world. Anything short of that, and the blood of Ukrainians is on the hands of the Western world too.
  - Markoff 5y ago
    Putin is just doing what NATO did in Serbia in 90s, I see no difference really, yet these NATO hypocrites get upset when someone else is doing it. Only countries which can speak out are those which were against the NATO bombing and don't recognize Kosovo, everyone else has blood on their hands even without Ukraine.
    - 11101010001100 5y ago
      It should be noted that Russia, as a member of the UN security council, voted in support of international military intervention in Kosovo.
    - favorited 5y ago
      > Putin is just doing what NATO did in Serbia in 90s I didn't realize that he was intervening in an ongoing genocide
      - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        Ethnic cleansing. Genocide triggers a responsibility to intervene, under the UN charter. Aren't euphemisms wonderful?
        Markoff 5y ago
        You mean like UN intervened in Srebrenica or Rwanda, that UN charter?
        disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        My point exactly.
      - Markoff 5y ago
        That's what he claims Ukrainians are doing to separatists.
    - 5y ago
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > The THREAT of sanctions hasn't had the desired effect, and if they are enacted, they will take a while before their effect can be felt by the people involved - weeks, months, I don't know. Putin doesn't care about Russia economy the way you think he does: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/lavrov-russia-diplomacy-ukraine/622075/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/lavrov-rus...: > Their intentions are different from ours too. Putin’s goal is not a flourishing, peaceful, prosperous Russia, but a Russia where he remains in charge. Lavrov’s goal is to maintain his position in the murky world of the Russian elite and, of course, to keep his money. What we mean by “interests” and what they mean by “interests” are not the same. When they listen to our diplomats, they don’t hear anything that really threatens their position, their power, their personal fortunes. Putin's clique actually stands to gain from sanctions. They control the Russian industry that would have to replace the imports. > And if they maintain a good relationship with China they may be able to avoid it entirely - although China may then risk its relationship with the rest of the world, if it's found out they're funneling money to Russia. They will: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/world/europe/china-russia-ukraine-sanctions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/world/europe/china-russia... > China on Wednesday criticized the expansion of economic sanctions against Russia, saying that they were unlikely to solve the Ukraine crisis and that they had the potential to harm average people as well as the interests of Beijing. It's also worth noting that China has been turning inward under Xi, so it's becoming increasingly willing to "risk its relationship[s] with the rest of the world."
  - Tainnor 5y ago
    Yes, but that's a dangerous game Putin is playing. If the economy continues tanking and he chooses to prolong a possibly unpopular war with casualties on the Russian side, he may lose his favour with the population. In a way, something similar seems to be happening with Erdogan in Turkey, whose popularity is starting to wane as an effect of the horrible economic situation. So, I think that long-term, sanctions may help, even though there is no guarantee (but when is there ever?).
- cryptonector 5y ago
  There have been sanctions on Russia since 2016, and they got harder in 2017. The marginal value of additional sanctions is now greatly reduced. In retrospect, imposing sanctions in 2016 and 2017 was a bad idea.
  - bduerst 5y ago
    >In retrospect, imposing sanctions in 2016 and 2017 was a bad idea. Why? Russia's response to the global Magnitsky Legislation shows that hitting the power structure in their oligarchs' assets works.
    - cryptonector 5y ago
      And what did that do to stop their invading Ukraine? Nothing. Nothing at all. That means those sanctions didn't work no matter how much they looked like they were working.
      - bduerst 5y ago
        The Magnitsky legislation was a global sanctions response to human rights violations in Russia[1], not the Russian occupation of Crimea. The point is that they are a prime example of how economic sanctions are effective, especially against Russia. If anything, there should have been the threat of more sanctions for invading, and now with countries like Germany pulling out of energy deals and other action, we have only to see how it plays out. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_legislation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_legislation
        cryptonector 5y ago
        How on Earth can you say with a straight face that they are effective given what's happened now?! I mean really, that's just gaslighting now.
        bduerst 5y ago
Markoff 5y ago
Why should my children see any videos of fighting in Ukraine?
- yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
  Because this is now a major world historical event. Obviously.
  - Markoff 5y ago
    - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
      Callous words, written from the comfort of your armchair, behind the protection of your keyboard.
    - ogogmad 5y ago
      The invasion of Poland by Hitler was not the UK and France's "problem" either. Assume the worst case with Putin. From Ukraine, Putin might attempt to annex* all other countries that belonged to the former Russian empire. In his recent speech, Putin lamented Russia's loss of the territory it had in 1916. He considers the whole former Russian empire to be his birthright. The man is extremely calculating, ambitious, and doesn't blunder easily. Look ahead. * - Or establish a "hegemony", as opposed to a classic empire.
      - adrian_b 5y ago
        The invasion of Poland by Hitler actually was the UK and France's "problem", because they were bound by treaties to help Poland, exactly like the NATO countries are today bound by a treaty. That is why UK and France were forced to declare war against Germany. Unfortunately for them, after declaring war they did nothing, hoping for some miraculous solution without actual war. Their inaction allowed the splitting of Poland between Germany and the Soviet Union and then Hitler had plenty of time to prepare for the attack against France.

andrewshadura 5y ago

Well said, пиздец it is.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

> Evidently, sanctions do jack shit. The THREAT of sanctions hasn't had the desired effect, and if they are enacted, they will take a while before their effect can be felt by the people involved - weeks, months, I don't know. And if they maintain a good relationship with China they may be able to avoid it entirely - although China may then risk its relationship with the rest of the world, if it's found out they're funneling money to Russia.

yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
What are you suggesting? That I should be patient and trust the system? The system has failed. People are dying. This is our Hitler. Diplomacy was never an option. Putin recorded his declaration of war before telling the world that diplomacy was still an option. He will only be stopped by swift and decisive military action from the entirety of the free world. Anything short of that, and the blood of Ukrainians is on the hands of the Western world too.
- Markoff 5y ago
  Putin is just doing what NATO did in Serbia in 90s, I see no difference really, yet these NATO hypocrites get upset when someone else is doing it. Only countries which can speak out are those which were against the NATO bombing and don't recognize Kosovo, everyone else has blood on their hands even without Ukraine.
  - 11101010001100 5y ago
    It should be noted that Russia, as a member of the UN security council, voted in support of international military intervention in Kosovo.
  - favorited 5y ago
    > Putin is just doing what NATO did in Serbia in 90s I didn't realize that he was intervening in an ongoing genocide
    - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
      Ethnic cleansing. Genocide triggers a responsibility to intervene, under the UN charter. Aren't euphemisms wonderful?
      - Markoff 5y ago
        You mean like UN intervened in Srebrenica or Rwanda, that UN charter?
        disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        My point exactly.
    - Markoff 5y ago
      That's what he claims Ukrainians are doing to separatists.
  - 5y ago
tablespoon 5y ago
> The THREAT of sanctions hasn't had the desired effect, and if they are enacted, they will take a while before their effect can be felt by the people involved - weeks, months, I don't know. Putin doesn't care about Russia economy the way you think he does: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/lavrov-russia-diplomacy-ukraine/622075/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/lavrov-rus...: > Their intentions are different from ours too. Putin’s goal is not a flourishing, peaceful, prosperous Russia, but a Russia where he remains in charge. Lavrov’s goal is to maintain his position in the murky world of the Russian elite and, of course, to keep his money. What we mean by “interests” and what they mean by “interests” are not the same. When they listen to our diplomats, they don’t hear anything that really threatens their position, their power, their personal fortunes. Putin's clique actually stands to gain from sanctions. They control the Russian industry that would have to replace the imports. > And if they maintain a good relationship with China they may be able to avoid it entirely - although China may then risk its relationship with the rest of the world, if it's found out they're funneling money to Russia. They will: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/world/europe/china-russia-ukraine-sanctions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/world/europe/china-russia... > China on Wednesday criticized the expansion of economic sanctions against Russia, saying that they were unlikely to solve the Ukraine crisis and that they had the potential to harm average people as well as the interests of Beijing. It's also worth noting that China has been turning inward under Xi, so it's becoming increasingly willing to "risk its relationship[s] with the rest of the world."
- Tainnor 5y ago
  Yes, but that's a dangerous game Putin is playing. If the economy continues tanking and he chooses to prolong a possibly unpopular war with casualties on the Russian side, he may lose his favour with the population. In a way, something similar seems to be happening with Erdogan in Turkey, whose popularity is starting to wane as an effect of the horrible economic situation. So, I think that long-term, sanctions may help, even though there is no guarantee (but when is there ever?).
cryptonector 5y ago
There have been sanctions on Russia since 2016, and they got harder in 2017. The marginal value of additional sanctions is now greatly reduced. In retrospect, imposing sanctions in 2016 and 2017 was a bad idea.
- bduerst 5y ago
  >In retrospect, imposing sanctions in 2016 and 2017 was a bad idea. Why? Russia's response to the global Magnitsky Legislation shows that hitting the power structure in their oligarchs' assets works.
  - cryptonector 5y ago
    And what did that do to stop their invading Ukraine? Nothing. Nothing at all. That means those sanctions didn't work no matter how much they looked like they were working.
    - bduerst 5y ago
      The Magnitsky legislation was a global sanctions response to human rights violations in Russia[1], not the Russian occupation of Crimea. The point is that they are a prime example of how economic sanctions are effective, especially against Russia. If anything, there should have been the threat of more sanctions for invading, and now with countries like Germany pulling out of energy deals and other action, we have only to see how it plays out. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_legislation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_legislation
      - cryptonector 5y ago
        How on Earth can you say with a straight face that they are effective given what's happened now?! I mean really, that's just gaslighting now.
        bduerst 5y ago

Markoff 5y ago

Why should my children see any videos of fighting in Ukraine?

yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
Because this is now a major world historical event. Obviously.
- Markoff 5y ago
  - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
    Callous words, written from the comfort of your armchair, behind the protection of your keyboard.
  - ogogmad 5y ago
    The invasion of Poland by Hitler was not the UK and France's "problem" either. Assume the worst case with Putin. From Ukraine, Putin might attempt to annex* all other countries that belonged to the former Russian empire. In his recent speech, Putin lamented Russia's loss of the territory it had in 1916. He considers the whole former Russian empire to be his birthright. The man is extremely calculating, ambitious, and doesn't blunder easily. Look ahead. * - Or establish a "hegemony", as opposed to a classic empire.
    - adrian_b 5y ago
      The invasion of Poland by Hitler actually was the UK and France's "problem", because they were bound by treaties to help Poland, exactly like the NATO countries are today bound by a treaty. That is why UK and France were forced to declare war against Germany. Unfortunately for them, after declaring war they did nothing, hoping for some miraculous solution without actual war. Their inaction allowed the splitting of Poland between Germany and the Soviet Union and then Hitler had plenty of time to prepare for the attack against France.