5 ms·

I don't know if it helpful during times like these but it sounds like the quote by G. Michael Hopf: Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times

by erikig 5y ago

I don't know if it helpful during times like these but it sounds like the quote by G. Michael Hopf: Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times

watwut 5y ago
And, the quote is onjectively bs. Hard times create hardened people who create hard time for others. And suffering.Good times are created by people who care and have right values. The hard times in Ukraine now won't make anyone better. Men in west won't be inferior for not going through it.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  > And, the quote is onjectively bs. Hard times create hardened people who create hard time for others. And suffering.Good times are created by people who care and have right values. And then you go on to express a not-so-objective viewpoint? OP is stating an idiom, a saying, a phrase. Let it be. There is nothing objective about it.
  - watwut 5y ago
    OP is stating ideology and an worldview. The one that is seems more and more wrong, the more you read about history. Generations that grew in hard times have more issues and those go away only slowly. People regularly use this one as argument or to imply inferiority of those they look down at. Therefore, it is 100% alright to not that idiom stand.
    - richardfey 5y ago
    - systemvoltage 5y ago
      > People regularly use this one as argument or to imply inferiority of those they look down at. Therefore, it is 100% alright to not that idiom stand. Hmm, I disagree. I've seen it used as a statement of dysfunction in our society.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  I fail to see how this is true at all. We were in a comfy peaceful era and yet we saw rise of extremism, neo nazis in germany, in the US even. Good times allow for forgetting the extent of what reality can be and then people start to have weird ideas when small problems come, only to react in shallow reflexes like nationalism, and war. I may be dumb but I assumed people who saw wars just didn't want any of that anymore and would actually know what 'right value' means, not just school books or worse .. network propaganda. Now sure, it can all be twisted, people can be brainwashed during and after war, there can be bad wounds for long too.
  - kasey_junk 5y ago
    The US has been in perpetual shooting wars for over 20 years. If wars _prevented_ extremism you’d think we’d have evidence of it by now. Also I wonder what happened after “The Great War”? Did extremism decline then?
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    > I may be dumb but I assumed people who saw wars just didn't want any of that anymore and would actually know what 'right value' means, not just school books or worse .. network propaganda. Yes. I too recall the many decades of peace after WWI. And the great leaders that arose in Europe after that conflict.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  The quote is true in many families, not sure why it wouldn’t apply in some cases. People with grit who struggle through puberty often produce children who wouldn’t bother to lift a finger to improve their lot or get a job:)
KTallguy 5y ago
A useful series of posts that thoroughly debunk this quote/meme. https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/ https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-...
- baby 5y ago
  Haven’t looked at that but it’s not clear how one can “debunk” a vague saying to begin with.
  - dgellow 5y ago
    It’s used as a common far-right/neo-fascist dog whistle, and to justify their ideology and actions. It’s vaguely based on the idea of cyclical history (which is of course not true), as presented by Oswald Spengler and others during the 20th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West
    - luminaobscura 5y ago
      I seriously think declaring something "far-right dog whistle" is a leftist dog whistle, signaling good progressives should oppose that something. After saying this, usually no serious arguments are given. Because they are not needed after declaring an idea the enemy. Cycles in history is of course not "of course not true". in any complex system, there are oscillations. Most famous is economical boom and boost cycle. Meme is not without merit. The reason we are able to discuss things like gender/race equity in marine corps promotions is precisely because these are good times. And this lack of focus may lead to bad times eventually.
      - dgellow 5y ago
        Cyclical history as theorized by Spengler and other is a fringe type of historical analysis rejected by historians. And it is actively used as a neo-fascist dog-whistle. That’s not a way to show my moral superiority, it’s what they do.
chewz 5y ago
It is originally a thesis from works of Ibn Khaldun, 14th century Muslim scholar from Tunisia who is considered a father of sociology and athropology.. Ibn Khalodoun had described a cycle of four generations of rulers and his theory echoes in Fourth Turning theory nowadays. So nihil novi sub sole... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun
listless 5y ago
Well we certainly have a surplus of weak men. We’ve been hard at work creating them here in the West. I don’t suppose anyone who requires a safe space or trigger warnings is going to volunteer to defend the moral high ground they love so much. We (the west) are not what we once were. I’m so sorry Ukraine.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  What an ignorant and unempathetic take. The West is evolving in the right direction and we should be doing everything we can to recognize more of the human condition (intersectionality, gender identity, institutional racism, etc). Dismissing those efforts because of a vocal few or because it's people you don't like is a disservice to those actually struggling.

by erikig 5y ago

watwut 5y ago

And, the quote is onjectively bs. Hard times create hardened people who create hard time for others. And suffering.Good times are created by people who care and have right values. The hard times in Ukraine now won't make anyone better. Men in west won't be inferior for not going through it.

systemvoltage 5y ago
> And, the quote is onjectively bs. Hard times create hardened people who create hard time for others. And suffering.Good times are created by people who care and have right values. And then you go on to express a not-so-objective viewpoint? OP is stating an idiom, a saying, a phrase. Let it be. There is nothing objective about it.
- watwut 5y ago
  OP is stating ideology and an worldview. The one that is seems more and more wrong, the more you read about history. Generations that grew in hard times have more issues and those go away only slowly. People regularly use this one as argument or to imply inferiority of those they look down at. Therefore, it is 100% alright to not that idiom stand.
  - richardfey 5y ago
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    > People regularly use this one as argument or to imply inferiority of those they look down at. Therefore, it is 100% alright to not that idiom stand. Hmm, I disagree. I've seen it used as a statement of dysfunction in our society.
agumonkey 5y ago
I fail to see how this is true at all. We were in a comfy peaceful era and yet we saw rise of extremism, neo nazis in germany, in the US even. Good times allow for forgetting the extent of what reality can be and then people start to have weird ideas when small problems come, only to react in shallow reflexes like nationalism, and war. I may be dumb but I assumed people who saw wars just didn't want any of that anymore and would actually know what 'right value' means, not just school books or worse .. network propaganda. Now sure, it can all be twisted, people can be brainwashed during and after war, there can be bad wounds for long too.
- kasey_junk 5y ago
  The US has been in perpetual shooting wars for over 20 years. If wars _prevented_ extremism you’d think we’d have evidence of it by now. Also I wonder what happened after “The Great War”? Did extremism decline then?
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  > I may be dumb but I assumed people who saw wars just didn't want any of that anymore and would actually know what 'right value' means, not just school books or worse .. network propaganda. Yes. I too recall the many decades of peace after WWI. And the great leaders that arose in Europe after that conflict.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
The quote is true in many families, not sure why it wouldn’t apply in some cases. People with grit who struggle through puberty often produce children who wouldn’t bother to lift a finger to improve their lot or get a job:)

KTallguy 5y ago

A useful series of posts that thoroughly debunk this quote/meme. https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/ https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-...

baby 5y ago
Haven’t looked at that but it’s not clear how one can “debunk” a vague saying to begin with.
- dgellow 5y ago
  It’s used as a common far-right/neo-fascist dog whistle, and to justify their ideology and actions. It’s vaguely based on the idea of cyclical history (which is of course not true), as presented by Oswald Spengler and others during the 20th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West
  - luminaobscura 5y ago
    I seriously think declaring something "far-right dog whistle" is a leftist dog whistle, signaling good progressives should oppose that something. After saying this, usually no serious arguments are given. Because they are not needed after declaring an idea the enemy. Cycles in history is of course not "of course not true". in any complex system, there are oscillations. Most famous is economical boom and boost cycle. Meme is not without merit. The reason we are able to discuss things like gender/race equity in marine corps promotions is precisely because these are good times. And this lack of focus may lead to bad times eventually.
    - dgellow 5y ago
      Cyclical history as theorized by Spengler and other is a fringe type of historical analysis rejected by historians. And it is actively used as a neo-fascist dog-whistle. That’s not a way to show my moral superiority, it’s what they do.

chewz 5y ago

It is originally a thesis from works of Ibn Khaldun, 14th century Muslim scholar from Tunisia who is considered a father of sociology and athropology.. Ibn Khalodoun had described a cycle of four generations of rulers and his theory echoes in Fourth Turning theory nowadays. So nihil novi sub sole... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun

listless 5y ago

Well we certainly have a surplus of weak men. We’ve been hard at work creating them here in the West. I don’t suppose anyone who requires a safe space or trigger warnings is going to volunteer to defend the moral high ground they love so much. We (the west) are not what we once were. I’m so sorry Ukraine.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
What an ignorant and unempathetic take. The West is evolving in the right direction and we should be doing everything we can to recognize more of the human condition (intersectionality, gender identity, institutional racism, etc). Dismissing those efforts because of a vocal few or because it's people you don't like is a disservice to those actually struggling.