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Others can correct me, but I don't think that's an example of a dark pattern. Intrusive, maybe, but a dark pattern is 'deceit by design' whereas what you're de

Others can correct me, but I don't think that's an example of a dark pattern. Intrusive, maybe, but a dark pattern is 'deceit by design' whereas what you're describing seems to me 'being slightly annoying by design', which is a totally different thing. Thinking about Exit Intent and how to optimize for it is a fairly well established part of online eCommerce. I think you made the wrong choice and your boss was probably right to be annoyed with you. It's within their prerogative to decide what user experience they offer to their users. And obviously, it's also yours to quit, but if you do so based on a poor understanding of what a dark pattern is, you're just hindering yourself.

DeathArrow 5y ago
>Intrusive, maybe, but a dark pattern is 'deceit by design' whereas what you're describing seems to me 'being slightly annoying by design', which is a totally different thing. We'll call it shitty pattern if you dislike dark pattern.
- liveinspain55 5y ago
  fine. Dark patterns involve a deliberate attempt to defraud/deceive. Expanding the definition is not helpful.
kybernetikos 5y ago
> if you do so based on a poor understanding of what a dark pattern is, you're just hindering yourself. I expect that they refused to implement it because it was a practice they felt was bad ethically rather than because it matched some industry definition.
dboreham 5y ago
Definitely a dark pattern, for the record.
- liveinspain55 5y ago
  if you can provide a source I'll be glad to see it. I checked multiple lists of dark patterns before posting.
verve_rat 5y ago
The user wants to leave the site. The site stops them from leaving. That sounds pretty dark to me. Just because something is "a fairly well established part of online eCommerce" doesn't mean it is not a shitty thing to do.
- liveinspain55 5y ago
  First - the site doesn't stop them from leaving. Second - I didn't say it's not shitty. I wouldn't normally nit pick on terms but this is a conversation about words and their definitions. Dark Patterns are a deliberate attempt to defraud or deceive through the use of UI. There are many things that are shitty - country music for one - that are not dark patterns. Just because you and I both don't like exit intent popups, doesn't make them something that should be criminalised. Dark Patterns describe activity that either is or should be criminal. The difference is enormous.
- Wiseacre 5y ago
  'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'
ehnto 5y ago
> Thinking about Exit Intent and how to optimize for it is a fairly well established part of online eCommerce. Just because something is institutionalized doesn't mean it's right. Especially when that institution is eCommerce, one of the most manipulative industries in software. I would ammend your description of dark patterns to "Deciept and manipulation by design" to see this through the lens most people do.
coldtea 5y ago
It's close. The user wants to close the page, and you nag them again - with a deal that you could already have given them if you were honest.
- adhesive_wombat 5y ago
  "Don't go! I can change!" Sadly it works too often in relationships as well as ecommerce. Spoiler: no change is forthcoming.
vanusa 5y ago
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  It's annoying, but not deceitful.
  - runnerup 5y ago
    Just curious which of these you'd consider annoying vs. something more than annoying. This isn't just a lazy slippery slope line of argument, but rather an inquiry to see what the absolute limit might be for the most tolerant 1% of the HN population. I'm genuinely curious what is the most extreme situation for which someone would still say "Oh that's quite annoying, but still acceptable." a) What if it was two confirmation popups before you had to leave the page? b) Three confirmation popups? c) What if it let you navigate away for about 10 seconds, but then immediately reloaded the last Luxottica page you were on. It only does this once. d) What if it let you navigate away for about 10 seconds, but then immediately reloaded the last Luxottica page you were on. It does this 2-3 times before it stops redirecting you back and lets you browse freely again. e) What if it required you to complete a short 5-30 second interactive engagement advertisement-game activity popup before you could leave instead of just clicking "OK I really want to leave". f) What if it never let you leave unless you quit the browser but you could open other tabs. g) What if it controlled your browser in such a way that you couldn't quit the browser, and it maximized the window. You can still put other windows on top of it but when you close them, the luxottica store is behind everything until you shut down the whole computer. h) What if it loaded that page which you can't close every time you started the browser. Only reinstalling the browser makes this stop, until you visit the Luxottica website again and it reloads this functionality again. i) What if it automatically loaded this page as your desktop background and required downloading a special tool from GitHub to get rid of it. j) What if it automatically rebranded your entire computer to display Gucci logos throughout the UI. Reinstalling the operating system is the only way to fix it.
    - rahimnathwani 5y ago
re6fae5Wied5tha 5y ago
lamontcg 5y ago
When everything is annoying by design it becomes a mental tax on everyone using the web. It might not be a dark pattern, but it is asshole design. Neither of which anyone should tolerate or defend.
strogonoff 5y ago
Some websites optimize exit intent by breaking the back button. Some malls optimize for it by making themselves difficult to navigate. It may not be a dark pattern to you, because you know how it works, but it might influence another person. I hope there will always be engineers and designers who refuse to implement them.
- sizzle 5y ago
  why does google allow them to abuse 'breaking the back button' by hijacking your history and overwriting it with the their website? This should not be possible, it's a horrible jarring experience every time it happens to me when I click a questionable link and try to go back to the previous page.
travisgriggs 5y ago
> Intrusive, maybe, but a dark pattern is 'deceit by design' whereas what you're describing seems to me 'being slightly annoying by design', which is a totally different thing. This is not a totally different thing. Both are examples of coercive/deceptive behavior. That makes them the same sort of thing, but differing by degree.

DeathArrow 5y ago

>Intrusive, maybe, but a dark pattern is 'deceit by design' whereas what you're describing seems to me 'being slightly annoying by design', which is a totally different thing. We'll call it shitty pattern if you dislike dark pattern.

liveinspain55 5y ago
fine. Dark patterns involve a deliberate attempt to defraud/deceive. Expanding the definition is not helpful.

kybernetikos 5y ago

> if you do so based on a poor understanding of what a dark pattern is, you're just hindering yourself. I expect that they refused to implement it because it was a practice they felt was bad ethically rather than because it matched some industry definition.

dboreham 5y ago

Definitely a dark pattern, for the record.

liveinspain55 5y ago
if you can provide a source I'll be glad to see it. I checked multiple lists of dark patterns before posting.

verve_rat 5y ago

The user wants to leave the site. The site stops them from leaving. That sounds pretty dark to me. Just because something is "a fairly well established part of online eCommerce" doesn't mean it is not a shitty thing to do.

liveinspain55 5y ago
First - the site doesn't stop them from leaving. Second - I didn't say it's not shitty. I wouldn't normally nit pick on terms but this is a conversation about words and their definitions. Dark Patterns are a deliberate attempt to defraud or deceive through the use of UI. There are many things that are shitty - country music for one - that are not dark patterns. Just because you and I both don't like exit intent popups, doesn't make them something that should be criminalised. Dark Patterns describe activity that either is or should be criminal. The difference is enormous.
Wiseacre 5y ago
'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'

ehnto 5y ago

> Thinking about Exit Intent and how to optimize for it is a fairly well established part of online eCommerce. Just because something is institutionalized doesn't mean it's right. Especially when that institution is eCommerce, one of the most manipulative industries in software. I would ammend your description of dark patterns to "Deciept and manipulation by design" to see this through the lens most people do.

coldtea 5y ago

It's close. The user wants to close the page, and you nag them again - with a deal that you could already have given them if you were honest.

adhesive_wombat 5y ago
"Don't go! I can change!" Sadly it works too often in relationships as well as ecommerce. Spoiler: no change is forthcoming.

vanusa 5y ago

rahimnathwani 5y ago
It's annoying, but not deceitful.
- runnerup 5y ago
  Just curious which of these you'd consider annoying vs. something more than annoying. This isn't just a lazy slippery slope line of argument, but rather an inquiry to see what the absolute limit might be for the most tolerant 1% of the HN population. I'm genuinely curious what is the most extreme situation for which someone would still say "Oh that's quite annoying, but still acceptable." a) What if it was two confirmation popups before you had to leave the page? b) Three confirmation popups? c) What if it let you navigate away for about 10 seconds, but then immediately reloaded the last Luxottica page you were on. It only does this once. d) What if it let you navigate away for about 10 seconds, but then immediately reloaded the last Luxottica page you were on. It does this 2-3 times before it stops redirecting you back and lets you browse freely again. e) What if it required you to complete a short 5-30 second interactive engagement advertisement-game activity popup before you could leave instead of just clicking "OK I really want to leave". f) What if it never let you leave unless you quit the browser but you could open other tabs. g) What if it controlled your browser in such a way that you couldn't quit the browser, and it maximized the window. You can still put other windows on top of it but when you close them, the luxottica store is behind everything until you shut down the whole computer. h) What if it loaded that page which you can't close every time you started the browser. Only reinstalling the browser makes this stop, until you visit the Luxottica website again and it reloads this functionality again. i) What if it automatically loaded this page as your desktop background and required downloading a special tool from GitHub to get rid of it. j) What if it automatically rebranded your entire computer to display Gucci logos throughout the UI. Reinstalling the operating system is the only way to fix it.
  - rahimnathwani 5y ago

re6fae5Wied5tha 5y ago

lamontcg 5y ago

When everything is annoying by design it becomes a mental tax on everyone using the web. It might not be a dark pattern, but it is asshole design. Neither of which anyone should tolerate or defend.

strogonoff 5y ago

Some websites optimize exit intent by breaking the back button. Some malls optimize for it by making themselves difficult to navigate. It may not be a dark pattern to you, because you know how it works, but it might influence another person. I hope there will always be engineers and designers who refuse to implement them.

sizzle 5y ago
why does google allow them to abuse 'breaking the back button' by hijacking your history and overwriting it with the their website? This should not be possible, it's a horrible jarring experience every time it happens to me when I click a questionable link and try to go back to the previous page.

travisgriggs 5y ago

> Intrusive, maybe, but a dark pattern is 'deceit by design' whereas what you're describing seems to me 'being slightly annoying by design', which is a totally different thing. This is not a totally different thing. Both are examples of coercive/deceptive behavior. That makes them the same sort of thing, but differing by degree.