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I think those things are true, and I live in Canada. I strongly support Trudeau's actions on this, and I'm sad that the government took so long to crack down o

I think those things are true, and I live in Canada. I strongly support Trudeau's actions on this, and I'm sad that the government took so long to crack down on the "truckers". It's deeply damaging to civil society when a few extremists can shut down a city without consequences.

jesusofnazarath 5y ago
mardifoufs 5y ago
Suspending basic rights, the constitution, and due process without consequences over a protest is what's damaging to civil society. I'm genuinely baffled by how you can see protests as damaging to civil society but reacting to them by suspending the charter and using an act that has only been used in wars and armed insurrection before is perfectly healthy for our system. When has that ever happened in the western world before over a protest? The gilets jaunes were miles ahead in terms of disturbance and there wasnt even a debate about "suspending" everyones rights until they stopped dissenting and being annoying. What a complete shame for canada and the nonchalant reactions like these make me even more impatient to leave this country as soon as I can get a new job. The recent events have been really eye opening.
- abledon 5y ago
  Act was made for the Borg but the Ferengi attacked, so we used it on them
- Nursie 5y ago
  > I'm genuinely baffled by how you can see protests as damaging to civil society Protests that shut down cities and piss off residents for days/weeks at a time can be, particularly when the protestors break a ton of laws, urinate on the memorial to the unknown soldier, and the police aren't interested in fixing any of that. > suspending the charter and using an act that has only been used in wars The act has never been used before, AFAICT it's a new one, and it's specifically not about wars.
  - mardifoufs 5y ago
    The current act is literally the replacement to the War Measures act... and of course it has never been used before since it was only created during the Mulroney era partly because Pierre Eliott Trudeau abused the original one during the October crisis. Kind of a pattern here. So yes technically it's not the war measures act anymore but if let's say there was a war, they'd enact the same emergency measures law. There is no seperate law for war iirc but at least we get to say that we technically aren't under martial law (because we renamed it)
ACanadian 5y ago
So I assume you were equally outraged not long ago at the blocking of rail lines by indigenous / environmental activists? The truckers were not violent. For real violence, look at the ax-wielding attackers in the recent incident at the gas pipeline site in BC. It is frightening how you and many other people so easily absorb state propaganda. Try thinking a bit about the circumstances here. Why did Trudeau go out of his way to falsely characterize the truckers as homophobic racist Nazis, while refusing to discuss any of their legitimate concerns? Why did Trudeau invoke the Emergency Act after the the peaceful resolution to the blocking of Ambassador Bridge (which was the most economically damaging part of the protest)? It seems quite likely that Trudeau was hoping for violence. Hoping that insulting the truckers would provoke them. Hoping that clearing the Ambassador Bridge blockage would involve violence. But when that failed to happen, he invoked the Emergency Act anyway, even though clearing the remaining protesters from Ottawa was then accomplished more-or-less peacefully with ordinary police tactics. Trudeau (or his handlers, he's not particularly smart himself) are clearly delighted to have the opportunity to establish a precedent for increasing state power, and for making everyone think twice before offering any support for any dissent group, lest their life be destroyed. Of course, "dissident" groups that are actually in line with the government's agenda are safe...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Arainach 5y ago
  Playing loud noise at all hours of the night is torture and has been recognized as such since at least the Geneva Convention.
  - catgary 5y ago
    Yeah I think people forget that the protestors were making life miserable for tens of thousands of people with their incessant honking at all hours of the night. The rail protests just gummed up supply chains, this was actually harassing people.
    - 5y ago
ta_abcd 5y ago
As a resident of the city in question, lets talk facts(whatever that means) if you care to read on.. Almost nothing was shut down as a result of this protest. You could travel over 99.5% of the city and forget a protest was taking place. Almost anything that was shut down, was shut down voluntarily. Only the 3-4 blocks immediately adjacent to the Parliament buildings (where else do you go to protest your federal government's policies?) were partially blocked with parked vehicles (Mainly trucks, again very relevant to protesting a policy involving trucking.) This area is 90% + unoccupied government office space ( they work from home ). Almost all roads had at least one lane open for local traffic, and a route was cleared for members of parliament to be able to drive into work without obstruction. A few residential side streets and a few high priced condo buildings were on the edge of this area. Those people did hear a lot of honking :( and perhaps had to see what people look like outside of their shiny city. I personally think that the important people in the high priced condos were a big reason why our local politicians were foaming at the mouth to wipe this group off the face of the planet. The honking was mostly resolved by a court order to stop honking and after 2 weeks, the mayor actually talking to them to ask them to move; which they then did (pretty much). While I had not been paying much attention, on Friday, my wife (muslim) who reads the news, was completely beside herself at the invasion of horrible violent people into the city and how minorities would have to go into hiding etc.. really total fear.. On Saturday, I took my wife and our kids to the protest to see this for ourselves (hard sell.) I was able to find parking without any issue or traffic about 10 minutes walk from parliament (there was space closer but blocked by police.) Once we got into the area near the parliament it was very loud and chaotic with the truck horns blasting (my kids enjoyed) and the smell of diesel fuel in the air (my wife did not enjoy.) But what we found were not angry people, but happy people. People made way for our stroller, help carry it up snowy stairs and thanked us for coming. While I don't think my wife became a supporter, she certainly didn't have any further (irrational) fear of this group over the next 3 weeks, which we lived completely normally. I'm not sure why it is so easy to hate people you have never met or care to meet, but it certainly not making this world a better place.
- rpeden 5y ago
  You must have skipped the parts of the "protest" that stretched way down streets like Kent St. and Metcalfe St. No fancy condos down there. Just cheaper apartments. That's where the problems were happening. If it had just been limited to the stretch of Wellington in front of Parliament, it wouldn't have been a big deal. But streets like Kent, Metcalfe, and O'Connor (and the cross streets between them) where the noise and diesel exhaust were messing up people's lives. I'm sorry, but honking your air horn for 10 minutes in a residential neighbourhood is a criminal offense. And it's not like you're sticking it to the elite, here. Somerset Ward is one of the lowest-income wards in the city. Only Vanier is lower, and not by much. Your dismissal of this as only affecting a few high-priced condos and side streets is shocking. The affected area was nowhere near 90% government buildings. For example, this section of Kent was full of protest vehicles making noise at all hours: https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4168826,-75.7005369,3a,75y,112.16h,92.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sanJDk6oHE-MaH9Amsi_YhQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4168826,-75.7005369,3a,75y,11... Do those look like high-priced condos to you? Ditto for this section of Metcalfe: https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4180527,-75.6932468,3a,75y,56.67h,99.75t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZqMermY-pjhp7LJ5lyCRRg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DZqMermY-pjhp7LJ5lyCRRg%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D154.1878%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4180527,-75.6932468,3a,75y,56... I know it's easy to dismiss the people living downtown when you live out in Barrhaven or Kanata, but I'm saddened by your callous disregard for your fellow citizens living in a low-income part of the city. Just because you don't notice them, it doesn't mean they aren't there. I don't mean for any of this to be pejorative; it just sounds like you're someone living in a suburban part of the city who went to the protest, walked around the party zone, and assumed that stretch of Metcalfe/Rideau represented the entire thing.

jesusofnazarath 5y ago

mardifoufs 5y ago

Suspending basic rights, the constitution, and due process without consequences over a protest is what's damaging to civil society. I'm genuinely baffled by how you can see protests as damaging to civil society but reacting to them by suspending the charter and using an act that has only been used in wars and armed insurrection before is perfectly healthy for our system. When has that ever happened in the western world before over a protest? The gilets jaunes were miles ahead in terms of disturbance and there wasnt even a debate about "suspending" everyones rights until they stopped dissenting and being annoying. What a complete shame for canada and the nonchalant reactions like these make me even more impatient to leave this country as soon as I can get a new job. The recent events have been really eye opening.

abledon 5y ago
Act was made for the Borg but the Ferengi attacked, so we used it on them
Nursie 5y ago
> I'm genuinely baffled by how you can see protests as damaging to civil society Protests that shut down cities and piss off residents for days/weeks at a time can be, particularly when the protestors break a ton of laws, urinate on the memorial to the unknown soldier, and the police aren't interested in fixing any of that. > suspending the charter and using an act that has only been used in wars The act has never been used before, AFAICT it's a new one, and it's specifically not about wars.
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  The current act is literally the replacement to the War Measures act... and of course it has never been used before since it was only created during the Mulroney era partly because Pierre Eliott Trudeau abused the original one during the October crisis. Kind of a pattern here. So yes technically it's not the war measures act anymore but if let's say there was a war, they'd enact the same emergency measures law. There is no seperate law for war iirc but at least we get to say that we technically aren't under martial law (because we renamed it)

ACanadian 5y ago

So I assume you were equally outraged not long ago at the blocking of rail lines by indigenous / environmental activists? The truckers were not violent. For real violence, look at the ax-wielding attackers in the recent incident at the gas pipeline site in BC. It is frightening how you and many other people so easily absorb state propaganda. Try thinking a bit about the circumstances here. Why did Trudeau go out of his way to falsely characterize the truckers as homophobic racist Nazis, while refusing to discuss any of their legitimate concerns? Why did Trudeau invoke the Emergency Act after the the peaceful resolution to the blocking of Ambassador Bridge (which was the most economically damaging part of the protest)? It seems quite likely that Trudeau was hoping for violence. Hoping that insulting the truckers would provoke them. Hoping that clearing the Ambassador Bridge blockage would involve violence. But when that failed to happen, he invoked the Emergency Act anyway, even though clearing the remaining protesters from Ottawa was then accomplished more-or-less peacefully with ordinary police tactics. Trudeau (or his handlers, he's not particularly smart himself) are clearly delighted to have the opportunity to establish a precedent for increasing state power, and for making everyone think twice before offering any support for any dissent group, lest their life be destroyed. Of course, "dissident" groups that are actually in line with the government's agenda are safe...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Arainach 5y ago
Playing loud noise at all hours of the night is torture and has been recognized as such since at least the Geneva Convention.
- catgary 5y ago
  Yeah I think people forget that the protestors were making life miserable for tens of thousands of people with their incessant honking at all hours of the night. The rail protests just gummed up supply chains, this was actually harassing people.
  - 5y ago

ta_abcd 5y ago

As a resident of the city in question, lets talk facts(whatever that means) if you care to read on.. Almost nothing was shut down as a result of this protest. You could travel over 99.5% of the city and forget a protest was taking place. Almost anything that was shut down, was shut down voluntarily. Only the 3-4 blocks immediately adjacent to the Parliament buildings (where else do you go to protest your federal government's policies?) were partially blocked with parked vehicles (Mainly trucks, again very relevant to protesting a policy involving trucking.) This area is 90% + unoccupied government office space ( they work from home ). Almost all roads had at least one lane open for local traffic, and a route was cleared for members of parliament to be able to drive into work without obstruction. A few residential side streets and a few high priced condo buildings were on the edge of this area. Those people did hear a lot of honking :( and perhaps had to see what people look like outside of their shiny city. I personally think that the important people in the high priced condos were a big reason why our local politicians were foaming at the mouth to wipe this group off the face of the planet. The honking was mostly resolved by a court order to stop honking and after 2 weeks, the mayor actually talking to them to ask them to move; which they then did (pretty much). While I had not been paying much attention, on Friday, my wife (muslim) who reads the news, was completely beside herself at the invasion of horrible violent people into the city and how minorities would have to go into hiding etc.. really total fear.. On Saturday, I took my wife and our kids to the protest to see this for ourselves (hard sell.) I was able to find parking without any issue or traffic about 10 minutes walk from parliament (there was space closer but blocked by police.) Once we got into the area near the parliament it was very loud and chaotic with the truck horns blasting (my kids enjoyed) and the smell of diesel fuel in the air (my wife did not enjoy.) But what we found were not angry people, but happy people. People made way for our stroller, help carry it up snowy stairs and thanked us for coming. While I don't think my wife became a supporter, she certainly didn't have any further (irrational) fear of this group over the next 3 weeks, which we lived completely normally. I'm not sure why it is so easy to hate people you have never met or care to meet, but it certainly not making this world a better place.

rpeden 5y ago
You must have skipped the parts of the "protest" that stretched way down streets like Kent St. and Metcalfe St. No fancy condos down there. Just cheaper apartments. That's where the problems were happening. If it had just been limited to the stretch of Wellington in front of Parliament, it wouldn't have been a big deal. But streets like Kent, Metcalfe, and O'Connor (and the cross streets between them) where the noise and diesel exhaust were messing up people's lives. I'm sorry, but honking your air horn for 10 minutes in a residential neighbourhood is a criminal offense. And it's not like you're sticking it to the elite, here. Somerset Ward is one of the lowest-income wards in the city. Only Vanier is lower, and not by much. Your dismissal of this as only affecting a few high-priced condos and side streets is shocking. The affected area was nowhere near 90% government buildings. For example, this section of Kent was full of protest vehicles making noise at all hours: https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4168826,-75.7005369,3a,75y,112.16h,92.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sanJDk6oHE-MaH9Amsi_YhQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4168826,-75.7005369,3a,75y,11... Do those look like high-priced condos to you? Ditto for this section of Metcalfe: https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4180527,-75.6932468,3a,75y,56.67h,99.75t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZqMermY-pjhp7LJ5lyCRRg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DZqMermY-pjhp7LJ5lyCRRg%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D154.1878%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4180527,-75.6932468,3a,75y,56... I know it's easy to dismiss the people living downtown when you live out in Barrhaven or Kanata, but I'm saddened by your callous disregard for your fellow citizens living in a low-income part of the city. Just because you don't notice them, it doesn't mean they aren't there. I don't mean for any of this to be pejorative; it just sounds like you're someone living in a suburban part of the city who went to the protest, walked around the party zone, and assumed that stretch of Metcalfe/Rideau represented the entire thing.