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Excellent article and one that I wish my friends would read. Recently on a hike I mentioned how upsetting Trudeau’s actions are, and none of my friends had any

Excellent article and one that I wish my friends would read. Recently on a hike I mentioned how upsetting Trudeau’s actions are, and none of my friends had any idea what was happening up in Canada, except someone talked about a few things that I don’t believe are true: truckers were violent, few Canadians supported them, etc. - I think those things are not true. As other people here have pointed out, cashless society is just asking for brutal government overreach.

btbuildem 5y ago
There's something I've learned about the HN crowd through this, that's for sure. Many here were supportive of the attempt at a christo-fascist uprising in Canada. Very thiely of y'all. In Canada, popular support for the convoy was around 30%, but it's a little more nuanced than that. Most are sick and tired of the health measures (duh) but very few actually approve of the way in which the protesting was carried out. EDIT: The downvotes kind of drive my point home. Thanks!
rpeden 5y ago
Mark, I respect you and I enjoy reading your thoughtful messages on HN. I think you're missing a bit of context. I doubt many truckers were violent, but the truckers weren't the only one there. Their presence created a center of gravity that attracted many hangers-on, and from what I have seen, they've been the source of most of the problems. Also, it's not really about violence. It's about needlessly harming innocent citizens. Although this is happening right near Parliament, it's one of the poorest wards in the city. This isn't a neighbourhood full of the liberal elite sipping lattes while they work from home. It's students, and shift works, and retail workers just trying to live their lives. Consider things like this: https://twitter.com/glen_mcgregor/status/1488905393199890432 https://twitter.com/glen_mcgregor/status/1488905393199890432 Turn your sound on/up to get a sense of what that was like. Do you want to live in a society where that is ever okay in the name or protest? I sure don't. And that was filmed from a building a couple of hundred meters away from the trucks that were parked up Kent St. How do you think it felt for people living in these apartments right on Kent: https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4168826,-75.7005369,3a,75y,105.64h,95.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sanJDk6oHE-MaH9Amsi_YhQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4168826,-75.7005369,3a,75y,10... For what it's worth (and I realize it's a small sample of a small portion of the population, so maybe it's not worth much), my friends in neighbours in my small Ontario town were initially generally supportive of what they saw as the truckers' core message, because "it's time to end vaccine mandates for truckers re-entering Canada" is a completely reasonable topic of protests. It's a good time to have that conversation. But the protest quickly evolved into something larger and messier than that core message, and sentiment in my small town quickly soured against the protest. What I've heard is recent conversations is that people feel the protest had lost the plot, the actions of some of the attendees in harming local citizens were beyond the pale, and it was time for the protest to end. There have been some objections to the way police ended the protest, but it looked relatively tame in comparison to other protest breakups here in recent memory like the Toronto homeless camps last summer, or the Montreal student protests, or the G20 protests. That's not to say it was done perfectly. I used to live a few blocks from Parliament Hill, and everybody living there is used to protests. We think protests are good and healthy and even necessary, even if we disagree with the protestors. This one quickly evolved into something beyond mere protest and turned residents against the protest who might otherwise have been sympathetic to its message. For some of the grievances local residents have, see lists like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/sh7qok/a_summary_of_events_at_the_protest_so_far/ https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/sh7qok/a_su... Lists like that are, of course, one-sided. It's up to you how much of that information you choose to see as credible. Just realize that as someone from outside Canada, you're probably seeing a filtered version of events. That list above is also a filtered version of events, but it's a very different filter. Look at it through enough filters and you'll probably end up with a more complete understanding. Personally, I watched some of the live streams to learn more about the protests and hear from some of the actual truckers. Danny and Czaba and the couple from Saskatchewan with the puppies seemed like good people with legitimate grievances to protest about. At the same time, no amount of goodness makes the harm caused to local residents okay. I know it's easy to come down strongly on one side or the other of this, but I see the whole thing as a crappy tragedy for everyone involved. As for the government's response to all of this - we'll have plenty of opportunities to voice our opinion at the ballot box. Municipal and Provincial governments should have been able to manage this protest from the start without needing the feds to step in, and we have municipal and provincial elections this year. And with a minority government federally, we could have an election there at any time as well. Realistically it's unlikely we'll see one before next year - but we'll still get to express ourselves soon enough.
ripley12 5y ago
I think those things are true, and I live in Canada. I strongly support Trudeau's actions on this, and I'm sad that the government took so long to crack down on the "truckers". It's deeply damaging to civil society when a few extremists can shut down a city without consequences.
- jesusofnazarath 5y ago
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  Suspending basic rights, the constitution, and due process without consequences over a protest is what's damaging to civil society. I'm genuinely baffled by how you can see protests as damaging to civil society but reacting to them by suspending the charter and using an act that has only been used in wars and armed insurrection before is perfectly healthy for our system. When has that ever happened in the western world before over a protest? The gilets jaunes were miles ahead in terms of disturbance and there wasnt even a debate about "suspending" everyones rights until they stopped dissenting and being annoying. What a complete shame for canada and the nonchalant reactions like these make me even more impatient to leave this country as soon as I can get a new job. The recent events have been really eye opening.
  - abledon 5y ago
    Act was made for the Borg but the Ferengi attacked, so we used it on them
  - Nursie 5y ago
    > I'm genuinely baffled by how you can see protests as damaging to civil society Protests that shut down cities and piss off residents for days/weeks at a time can be, particularly when the protestors break a ton of laws, urinate on the memorial to the unknown soldier, and the police aren't interested in fixing any of that. > suspending the charter and using an act that has only been used in wars The act has never been used before, AFAICT it's a new one, and it's specifically not about wars.
BeefWellington 5y ago
> except someone talked about a few things that I don’t believe are true: truckers were violent, few Canadians supported them, etc. - I think those things are not true. Have you sought out the information on whether it is or not, or just decided it wasn't? Re: violence: The scariest to me personally was someone attempting to start a fire in a building nearby to the convoy while duct taping the doors shut.[1] Depending on your threshold for violence, the numbers could vary greatly, from a handful to several hundred.[2][3] Regarding polling, there were a number of polls showing they didn't have broad support, especially as time went on.[4] [1]: https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-police-investigating-attempted-arson-in-centretown-high-rise-1.5771579 https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-police-investigating-attemp... [2]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/hate-crime-hotline-ottawa-protests-1.6334163 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/hate-crime-hotline-ott... [3]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13-Zg8yjEPYyybbLy70njbWxGeYELQ3Q3PT2Vph0XKQM/mobilebasic https://docs.google.com/document/d/13-Zg8yjEPYyybbLy70njbWxG... [4]: https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-protest-vaccine-mandates-covid-19/ https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-protest-vaccine...
- 34679 5y ago
  With a large enough gathering of people, for a long enough time, there will always be some violence. That doesn't necessarily make the gathering violent and it doesn't mean the organizers had violent intentions. I've watched a few live streams from people just walking around, talking to protesters at the event and none depicted any violent acts of any kind. There also weren't any swastikas or rebel flags that I could see in the huge crowds. This leads me to believe the incidents that did occur were isolated and not representative of the group as a whole.
  - BeefWellington 5y ago
    Anyone claiming this was a "peaceful protest" is I think at this point choosing to ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary. Separately, at what point does a protest cease to be peaceful? What percentage of bad apples would satisfy you that this wasn't a peaceful protest? 1%? 10%? 50%? I'm curious because you can make that argument about pretty much any protest/disruption.
catgary 5y ago
No, poll after poll has shown that Canadians were overwhelmingly against the truckers [1], and a strong majority supported the use of the emergency act (there was even a point where bringing in the military polled quite strongly with Canadians). There have also been a multitude of reports of violence, including at least one case where protestors attempted to burn down an apartment complex with its residents locked inside [2]. I don’t think it’s possible to understate how poorly informed you are about this, and as a Canadian I really beg you to stop spreading misinformation like this. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/15/politics/fact-check-canadian-protests-polls-trudeau-support-oppose-truckers-mandates/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/15/politics/fact-check-canadian-... [2] https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/8600592/trucker-convoy-police-investigating-arson-apartment/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/8600592/truc...
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  > The survey was conducted online "among a representative randomized sample of 1,622 Canadian adults who are members of Angus Reid Forum." You need a lot of faith if you think that can ever be a representative sample.
- mythrwy 5y ago
  You link to CNN and globalnews though. Not really unbiased sources. And I think we have learned about "polls" over the past few years, at least I have, in the US elections. I have no doubt many Canadians are not happy about the protests. Maybe even most. But I don't believe these polls for one second. It looks like propaganda saying "see, everyone believes XX thing thing the government in power would like you to believe".
  - catgary 5y ago
    Jesus Christ, just go look at the Ipsos/Nanos polls. Do you think CNN made that up out of thin air? Those are reputable polling agencies. Barely 50% of CPC voters supported the convoy protestors methods.
    - 5y ago

btbuildem 5y ago

There's something I've learned about the HN crowd through this, that's for sure. Many here were supportive of the attempt at a christo-fascist uprising in Canada. Very thiely of y'all. In Canada, popular support for the convoy was around 30%, but it's a little more nuanced than that. Most are sick and tired of the health measures (duh) but very few actually approve of the way in which the protesting was carried out. EDIT: The downvotes kind of drive my point home. Thanks!

rpeden 5y ago

Mark, I respect you and I enjoy reading your thoughtful messages on HN. I think you're missing a bit of context. I doubt many truckers were violent, but the truckers weren't the only one there. Their presence created a center of gravity that attracted many hangers-on, and from what I have seen, they've been the source of most of the problems. Also, it's not really about violence. It's about needlessly harming innocent citizens. Although this is happening right near Parliament, it's one of the poorest wards in the city. This isn't a neighbourhood full of the liberal elite sipping lattes while they work from home. It's students, and shift works, and retail workers just trying to live their lives. Consider things like this: https://twitter.com/glen_mcgregor/status/1488905393199890432 https://twitter.com/glen_mcgregor/status/1488905393199890432 Turn your sound on/up to get a sense of what that was like. Do you want to live in a society where that is ever okay in the name or protest? I sure don't. And that was filmed from a building a couple of hundred meters away from the trucks that were parked up Kent St. How do you think it felt for people living in these apartments right on Kent: https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4168826,-75.7005369,3a,75y,105.64h,95.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sanJDk6oHE-MaH9Amsi_YhQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4168826,-75.7005369,3a,75y,10... For what it's worth (and I realize it's a small sample of a small portion of the population, so maybe it's not worth much), my friends in neighbours in my small Ontario town were initially generally supportive of what they saw as the truckers' core message, because "it's time to end vaccine mandates for truckers re-entering Canada" is a completely reasonable topic of protests. It's a good time to have that conversation. But the protest quickly evolved into something larger and messier than that core message, and sentiment in my small town quickly soured against the protest. What I've heard is recent conversations is that people feel the protest had lost the plot, the actions of some of the attendees in harming local citizens were beyond the pale, and it was time for the protest to end. There have been some objections to the way police ended the protest, but it looked relatively tame in comparison to other protest breakups here in recent memory like the Toronto homeless camps last summer, or the Montreal student protests, or the G20 protests. That's not to say it was done perfectly. I used to live a few blocks from Parliament Hill, and everybody living there is used to protests. We think protests are good and healthy and even necessary, even if we disagree with the protestors. This one quickly evolved into something beyond mere protest and turned residents against the protest who might otherwise have been sympathetic to its message. For some of the grievances local residents have, see lists like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/sh7qok/a_summary_of_events_at_the_protest_so_far/ https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/sh7qok/a_su... Lists like that are, of course, one-sided. It's up to you how much of that information you choose to see as credible. Just realize that as someone from outside Canada, you're probably seeing a filtered version of events. That list above is also a filtered version of events, but it's a very different filter. Look at it through enough filters and you'll probably end up with a more complete understanding. Personally, I watched some of the live streams to learn more about the protests and hear from some of the actual truckers. Danny and Czaba and the couple from Saskatchewan with the puppies seemed like good people with legitimate grievances to protest about. At the same time, no amount of goodness makes the harm caused to local residents okay. I know it's easy to come down strongly on one side or the other of this, but I see the whole thing as a crappy tragedy for everyone involved. As for the government's response to all of this - we'll have plenty of opportunities to voice our opinion at the ballot box. Municipal and Provincial governments should have been able to manage this protest from the start without needing the feds to step in, and we have municipal and provincial elections this year. And with a minority government federally, we could have an election there at any time as well. Realistically it's unlikely we'll see one before next year - but we'll still get to express ourselves soon enough.

ripley12 5y ago

I think those things are true, and I live in Canada. I strongly support Trudeau's actions on this, and I'm sad that the government took so long to crack down on the "truckers". It's deeply damaging to civil society when a few extremists can shut down a city without consequences.

jesusofnazarath 5y ago
mardifoufs 5y ago
Suspending basic rights, the constitution, and due process without consequences over a protest is what's damaging to civil society. I'm genuinely baffled by how you can see protests as damaging to civil society but reacting to them by suspending the charter and using an act that has only been used in wars and armed insurrection before is perfectly healthy for our system. When has that ever happened in the western world before over a protest? The gilets jaunes were miles ahead in terms of disturbance and there wasnt even a debate about "suspending" everyones rights until they stopped dissenting and being annoying. What a complete shame for canada and the nonchalant reactions like these make me even more impatient to leave this country as soon as I can get a new job. The recent events have been really eye opening.
- abledon 5y ago
  Act was made for the Borg but the Ferengi attacked, so we used it on them
- Nursie 5y ago
  > I'm genuinely baffled by how you can see protests as damaging to civil society Protests that shut down cities and piss off residents for days/weeks at a time can be, particularly when the protestors break a ton of laws, urinate on the memorial to the unknown soldier, and the police aren't interested in fixing any of that. > suspending the charter and using an act that has only been used in wars The act has never been used before, AFAICT it's a new one, and it's specifically not about wars.

BeefWellington 5y ago

> except someone talked about a few things that I don’t believe are true: truckers were violent, few Canadians supported them, etc. - I think those things are not true. Have you sought out the information on whether it is or not, or just decided it wasn't? Re: violence: The scariest to me personally was someone attempting to start a fire in a building nearby to the convoy while duct taping the doors shut.[1] Depending on your threshold for violence, the numbers could vary greatly, from a handful to several hundred.[2][3] Regarding polling, there were a number of polls showing they didn't have broad support, especially as time went on.[4] [1]: https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-police-investigating-attempted-arson-in-centretown-high-rise-1.5771579 https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-police-investigating-attemp... [2]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/hate-crime-hotline-ottawa-protests-1.6334163 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/hate-crime-hotline-ott... [3]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13-Zg8yjEPYyybbLy70njbWxGeYELQ3Q3PT2Vph0XKQM/mobilebasic https://docs.google.com/document/d/13-Zg8yjEPYyybbLy70njbWxG... [4]: https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-protest-vaccine-mandates-covid-19/ https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-protest-vaccine...

34679 5y ago
With a large enough gathering of people, for a long enough time, there will always be some violence. That doesn't necessarily make the gathering violent and it doesn't mean the organizers had violent intentions. I've watched a few live streams from people just walking around, talking to protesters at the event and none depicted any violent acts of any kind. There also weren't any swastikas or rebel flags that I could see in the huge crowds. This leads me to believe the incidents that did occur were isolated and not representative of the group as a whole.
- BeefWellington 5y ago
  Anyone claiming this was a "peaceful protest" is I think at this point choosing to ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary. Separately, at what point does a protest cease to be peaceful? What percentage of bad apples would satisfy you that this wasn't a peaceful protest? 1%? 10%? 50%? I'm curious because you can make that argument about pretty much any protest/disruption.

catgary 5y ago

No, poll after poll has shown that Canadians were overwhelmingly against the truckers [1], and a strong majority supported the use of the emergency act (there was even a point where bringing in the military polled quite strongly with Canadians). There have also been a multitude of reports of violence, including at least one case where protestors attempted to burn down an apartment complex with its residents locked inside [2]. I don’t think it’s possible to understate how poorly informed you are about this, and as a Canadian I really beg you to stop spreading misinformation like this. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/15/politics/fact-check-canadian-protests-polls-trudeau-support-oppose-truckers-mandates/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/15/politics/fact-check-canadian-... [2] https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/8600592/trucker-convoy-police-investigating-arson-apartment/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/8600592/truc...

raxxorrax 5y ago
> The survey was conducted online "among a representative randomized sample of 1,622 Canadian adults who are members of Angus Reid Forum." You need a lot of faith if you think that can ever be a representative sample.
mythrwy 5y ago
You link to CNN and globalnews though. Not really unbiased sources. And I think we have learned about "polls" over the past few years, at least I have, in the US elections. I have no doubt many Canadians are not happy about the protests. Maybe even most. But I don't believe these polls for one second. It looks like propaganda saying "see, everyone believes XX thing thing the government in power would like you to believe".
- catgary 5y ago
  Jesus Christ, just go look at the Ipsos/Nanos polls. Do you think CNN made that up out of thin air? Those are reputable polling agencies. Barely 50% of CPC voters supported the convoy protestors methods.
  - 5y ago