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This is a point that people should remember if they're thinking about purchasing a framework. This is still very much beta hardware. The battery drain is annoy

This is a point that people should remember if they're thinking about purchasing a framework. This is still very much beta hardware. The battery drain is annoying, it's around 30-50% per night depending on what addon cards you have. I've got a setup that puts it close to 40% per night so the laptop has to live on charger over night if I want to use it the next day. However, the thing that's really stopping me from using my laptop (it has sat in my office for the last 3 weeks with its lid closed) is the touchpad. https://community.frame.work/t/subpar-touchpad/3962 https://community.frame.work/t/subpar-touchpad/3962 External mouse only. The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers. Edit: Also, the I'll throw in the speakers being absolute garbage as well. Think 1 step above 90s pc speaker. And the sound device has a constant background static when using headphones which clicks on when there's sound and then 2 seconds after any sound being played clicks off.

pmontra 5y ago
I didn't try the Framework but by looking at it my complaint with the touchpad would be that it has no physical buttons. Hard to middle click to paste with Linux. I only buy laptops with 3 buttons and I disable clicking on the touchpad, so the pointer doesn't move when I click. I've got the buttons after all... Anyway, this is a 13.5" laptop so space is at a premium. I can't expect to include everything. But if they'll build a 15" laptop with NO NUMBERPAD and buttons on the touchpad, I'll consider buying it. I'll pay extras for those buttons and for the numberpad-less keyboard.
tebruno99 5y ago
Weird, I love the touchpad. So much better than My Dell XPS 9710
emptysongglass 5y ago
Has the 3.07 BIOS update fixed the overnight drain issue? [1] [1] https://community.frame.work/t/bios-3-07-windows-10-and-11-alpha-driver-bundle/12651/214 https://community.frame.work/t/bios-3-07-windows-10-and-11-a...
omdv 5y ago
Anecdotal, so obviously YMMV. On battery - I am using "sleep then hibernate", which typically means 4-6% of battery drain overnight which happens while it is in first ~2hrs of sleep mode. Of course it means you now spend 30sec booting up, but I can live with that. On touchpad - weird, my experience is opposite. I'd say this is the closest to Macbook experience I had, no issues whatsoever. Speakers are a bit quiet, agreed, no static or anything, we occasionally use it to watch Netflix with my wife, while away from TV, interchangeably with her Macbook and definitely wouldn't call it garbage. So, all in all I am in "quite happy" camp. Yes, not Macbook killer, but for me it is close enough and without any major inconveniences, but with all OSS benefits and presumably infinite upgradeability. I use Arch btw :)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kkielhofner 5y ago
  Sleep then hibernate was a game changer. Pretty convoluted to setup (PopOS in my case) and still kind of a pain (takes longer to resume than I'd like) but definitely an improvement. I have other issues with it (USB-C DP alt-mode, fan noise) but I've already ranted about those on HN.
- sudders 5y ago
  The sleep then hibernate sounds promising. But is it something you need to configure yourself?
  - omdv 5y ago
    On Linux? Yes. Changing the mode is just a matter of changing one line in one file. But getting hibernate to actually work is a bit of hassle, especially if you have any kind of encryption or non-standard file system. This said - I managed to get mine working on encrypted Btrfs.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      At some point I tried to have dual boot with windows and encryption and hibernate working. No fun and no success.
dheera 5y ago
I also do have the battery drain issue running 21.10. I'm generally otherwise super happy with it though. The speakers don't bother me much, they're good enough for calls, and if I'm actually trying to listen to music I'll just use actual bluetooth speakers or headphones. I'm most happy about the fact that they put an actually decent screen and key switches. Many other laptops that run Linux have shitty 1080p screens and shitty keyboards. And the fact that I was able to shove in 2TB of SSD and 64GB of RAM all bought at market pricing, not at Lenovo or Apple pricing.
- aunty_helen 5y ago
  Some big points there, I can't even get the 64gb Macbook because they decided not to bring more than 32 into my country. So being able to get whatever I want from amazon at market rates is amazing (and probably the biggest feature of this laptop) There is an issue with ram timings not being supported that affects the more flashy ram chips. I was lucky enough that it didn't affect the 32gb module I bought but it could've been a return (they need to update the supported ram timings in the bios but haven't) I really like the keyboard, although I would prefer the layout was more macbooky (the function key kills me but I've swapped it with the ctrl) and the screen I'm pretty happy with. The 100% / 200% scaling thats supported in fedora though is awkward. 100 is a bit squinty 200 is waay to big. I like the laptop but have struggled to use it. I'm starting to wonder if my touchpad is actually defective.
  - dheera 5y ago
    Yeah personally I've settled with 100% with larger fonts. I probably spend 90% of my time in web browser + coding + terminal combined and they all handle arbitrary fractional scaling well from within the app. And then maybe 5% of the time in graphics editing for which it doesn't matter. For other locally run apps, scaling at 125% or 150% would be perfect but I think it's just a matter of time before Linux supports it properly without eating CPU.
    - freedomben 5y ago
      If you can use wayland on your distro, it can do that fractional scaling. I think I settled on like 140%
abeisgreat 5y ago
Had mine for a couple weeks, has some trouble sleeping / waking in Ubuntu 21.10 but aside from that (and the poor speakers) it's basically perfect. Trackpad is good and I don't see any battery drain issues. Definitely easier experience than getting Linux on other modern laptops.
causi 5y ago
Yes, I'll be excited about version 2. Version 1 just has too many missed opportunities. For example, a single type-c bay could accommodate two type-A ports, or one port and one microsd reader. Wasting a whole one on a reader is dumb when most laptops just have one stuck somewhere. Give me a bay with a pop-out bluetooth mouse in it. Give me a non-chiclet keyboard and a touchpad with real buttons and a dGPU option and a removable battery in standard and extended sizes. Why buy a laptop with four interchangeable ports when my normal laptop has two USB-A, one USB-C, HDMI, microsd, and a charge port all at the same time? Heck you can't even charge the Framework unless you leave one port as USB-C.
- gtvwill 5y ago
  Well common then bunj. Jump on the kicads and fart out a add on board for your dual usb type A's, or any of the other add ons you mentioned. I mean hell why not just go all out and slap usb-c double sided on a single PCB! You should be able to cram at least 4 in the same area! Point is you can do that w/ framework. Fat luck getting dell or some other behemoth to design a device you can do that with. They have done a stellar job given how many have had hopes and dreams to do similar but haven't even got a product in people's hands.
- kmeisthax 5y ago
  There's been discussions about dual-port expansion cards on the Framework forums[0], but the problem is finding a chip that will pass through all the things you expect USB-C to handle over both ports. This is actually a larger problem with USB-C, as each altmode is basically a different spec that reuses the same connector, with lots of negotiation and custom electrical requirements involved. So any moderately niche application will either require custom silicon or have absurd limitations. You could obviously wire up an off-the-shelf USB3 hub controller in such a way as to get two USB3 Type-C ports in an expansion card. (I don't think two type-As would fit.) However, you won't be able to charge the laptop, use external displays, or connect external GPUs through either of the ports... which is kind of the expectation that people have with Type-C ports. If they sold such an expansion card, there would probably be plenty of people angry that they can't just have this one card for charging and dongles, and then fill their other bays with storage drives. Related example: fiber-optic Type-C cables for long-run use basically only come in two flavors, DP and Thunderbolt. And the source device has to use that one specific altmode; there is no downgrading to USB 3 or 2. [0] https://community.frame.work/t/dual-usb-c-expansion-card-mockup/2325/66 https://community.frame.work/t/dual-usb-c-expansion-card-moc...
qudat 5y ago
Running arch with wayland and sway on a framework. Setting up sleep-then-hibernate via systemd works beautifully. I only lose a few % overnight. That’s the thing with running Linux as a desktop, you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right. Battery life is a non issue for me on the framework. The speakers on the other hand is a brutal downgrade. More thoughts here comparing a 2018 mbp: https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html
- freedomben 5y ago
  > That’s the thing with running Linux as a desktop, you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right. If you're running arch with wayland and sway, then yes absolutely. For people who stick with the default (often Gnome) I haven't had to tweak anything in many years. So I would just s/Linux/customized Linux/ or something like that. Mainly it only matters because some people will be scared away by "you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right" so accuracy is important to me.
  - thom 5y ago
    What distro are you on with hibernate working out of the box (with an encrypted filesystem hopefully)?
frakkingcylons 5y ago
> The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers. Hold on. Which reviewers received payments in return for positive coverage of the laptop?
- zmk5 5y ago
  None of them did. I think this person is just making that up.
- sensitivefrost 5y ago
  None of them, they're being massively hyperbolic and disingenuous because a piece of hardware isn't perfect the first iteration thus the reviewers who think a great device is great must be paid.
- GauntletWizard 5y ago
  Not that I agree with the characterization, but they might be referring to Linus Sebastian of Linux Tech Tips, who invested a bunch of money into the company: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg
  - Wuzado 5y ago
    But that's the other way around!
- nrp 5y ago
  Arriving at this thread late, but we have never paid a reviewer and it’s unlikely we ever will. For reviewers like Linus Tech Tips and other YouTubers who do a mix of sponsored and non-sponsored reviews (and provide a clear disclaimer of which ones are which), we’ve only followed the non-sponsored path. We discussed investment with Linus only after his review, and before making a decision on it, he brought it in front of his community to flag the risks of future conflicts of interest. Since completing the investment, he has also continued to flag that potential conflict in additional videos he has posted.
freedomben 5y ago
> The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers. Just because people have a different opinion than you doesn't mean they are hyperbolic paid reviewers. I love the trackpad, although I did have a minor issue out of the box where I had to click kind of hard toward the bottom center to get it to start working. I expect those things will go away as they get better. It's gotta be damn hard to put together such a complex hardware product.
TranquilMarmot 5y ago
??? I absolutely love the touchpad on the Framework. I think people got spoiled by Macbook touchpads- no, and I mean NO, Linux/Windows laptops out there have a comparable touchpad to the Macbook. What the Framework has is good for what's available. Honestly I don't mind tap-to-click vs. press-to-click. I can agree that the speakers aren't stellar but that's something I don't care about on a laptop since I always have on headphones or I'm just using the speakers for video conferencing or something. Never experienced any background static when using headphones.
- aunty_helen 5y ago
  They did change the audio chip due to supply chain issues. My laptop was right around the time they changed so I'm not sure which I've got. But there's an audible tone and then static and then an audible tone when there's no sound. So it's obvious that it's switching on and then off. This is with a pair of akg K371.
- worthless-trash 5y ago
  I think the macbook ones are hot garbage compared to my lenovo. I think people get a bit brainwashed when it comes to mac hardware.
- na85 5y ago
  >I think people got spoiled by Macbook touchpads- no, and I mean NO, Linux/Windows laptops out there have a comparable touchpad to the Macbook. What the Framework has is good for what's available. That's a dealbreaker for me. I'm not one of those people that carries around en external mouse and stuff. I bought a laptop for a reason. "Better than the hot garbage trackpad on my wife's Dell" is not good enough.
  - TranquilMarmot 5y ago
    Then sad to say you will be stuck on Apple hardware for the foreseeable future. It's all a matter of preference, too- I used to have a newer Dell and thought the trackpad was totally fine.
ksec 5y ago
Your link actually answered your question in the 2nd reply. >That’s not subpar, that’s standard. There’s a reason why macbook touchpads are so widely praised. Trackpad improvement in current gen PC is a very recent thing. After people trashing PC laptop trackpad for years, and Microsoft throwing in some R&D money to help improve the situation. And again if you are comparing to a Macbook, most PC speaker has been garbage for years. Only when reviewer start comparing their PC laptop speakers to Macbook did they start to put effort into improving it. I dont know any reviewer actually said it is Macbook Killer. It would actually be a stupid thing to say. ( Show them to me so I will take notes ). But I am not surprised because current generation so called reviewers have practically little hardware and supply chain knowledge. There are of compromise being made to have it all fixable. But they also put in the extra effort in motherboard reliability design. And things that aren't so obvious. Compared to Macbook which is all integrated. ( Although that is changing now, you see more individual components "blocks" being used ) I think it is an expectation problem. And may be people should not have overhyped it so much.

pmontra 5y ago

I didn't try the Framework but by looking at it my complaint with the touchpad would be that it has no physical buttons. Hard to middle click to paste with Linux. I only buy laptops with 3 buttons and I disable clicking on the touchpad, so the pointer doesn't move when I click. I've got the buttons after all... Anyway, this is a 13.5" laptop so space is at a premium. I can't expect to include everything. But if they'll build a 15" laptop with NO NUMBERPAD and buttons on the touchpad, I'll consider buying it. I'll pay extras for those buttons and for the numberpad-less keyboard.

tebruno99 5y ago

Weird, I love the touchpad. So much better than My Dell XPS 9710

emptysongglass 5y ago

Has the 3.07 BIOS update fixed the overnight drain issue? [1] [1] https://community.frame.work/t/bios-3-07-windows-10-and-11-alpha-driver-bundle/12651/214 https://community.frame.work/t/bios-3-07-windows-10-and-11-a...

omdv 5y ago

Anecdotal, so obviously YMMV. On battery - I am using "sleep then hibernate", which typically means 4-6% of battery drain overnight which happens while it is in first ~2hrs of sleep mode. Of course it means you now spend 30sec booting up, but I can live with that. On touchpad - weird, my experience is opposite. I'd say this is the closest to Macbook experience I had, no issues whatsoever. Speakers are a bit quiet, agreed, no static or anything, we occasionally use it to watch Netflix with my wife, while away from TV, interchangeably with her Macbook and definitely wouldn't call it garbage. So, all in all I am in "quite happy" camp. Yes, not Macbook killer, but for me it is close enough and without any major inconveniences, but with all OSS benefits and presumably infinite upgradeability. I use Arch btw :)

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kkielhofner 5y ago
Sleep then hibernate was a game changer. Pretty convoluted to setup (PopOS in my case) and still kind of a pain (takes longer to resume than I'd like) but definitely an improvement. I have other issues with it (USB-C DP alt-mode, fan noise) but I've already ranted about those on HN.
sudders 5y ago
The sleep then hibernate sounds promising. But is it something you need to configure yourself?
- omdv 5y ago
  On Linux? Yes. Changing the mode is just a matter of changing one line in one file. But getting hibernate to actually work is a bit of hassle, especially if you have any kind of encryption or non-standard file system. This said - I managed to get mine working on encrypted Btrfs.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    At some point I tried to have dual boot with windows and encryption and hibernate working. No fun and no success.

dheera 5y ago

I also do have the battery drain issue running 21.10. I'm generally otherwise super happy with it though. The speakers don't bother me much, they're good enough for calls, and if I'm actually trying to listen to music I'll just use actual bluetooth speakers or headphones. I'm most happy about the fact that they put an actually decent screen and key switches. Many other laptops that run Linux have shitty 1080p screens and shitty keyboards. And the fact that I was able to shove in 2TB of SSD and 64GB of RAM all bought at market pricing, not at Lenovo or Apple pricing.

aunty_helen 5y ago
Some big points there, I can't even get the 64gb Macbook because they decided not to bring more than 32 into my country. So being able to get whatever I want from amazon at market rates is amazing (and probably the biggest feature of this laptop) There is an issue with ram timings not being supported that affects the more flashy ram chips. I was lucky enough that it didn't affect the 32gb module I bought but it could've been a return (they need to update the supported ram timings in the bios but haven't) I really like the keyboard, although I would prefer the layout was more macbooky (the function key kills me but I've swapped it with the ctrl) and the screen I'm pretty happy with. The 100% / 200% scaling thats supported in fedora though is awkward. 100 is a bit squinty 200 is waay to big. I like the laptop but have struggled to use it. I'm starting to wonder if my touchpad is actually defective.
- dheera 5y ago
  Yeah personally I've settled with 100% with larger fonts. I probably spend 90% of my time in web browser + coding + terminal combined and they all handle arbitrary fractional scaling well from within the app. And then maybe 5% of the time in graphics editing for which it doesn't matter. For other locally run apps, scaling at 125% or 150% would be perfect but I think it's just a matter of time before Linux supports it properly without eating CPU.
  - freedomben 5y ago
    If you can use wayland on your distro, it can do that fractional scaling. I think I settled on like 140%

abeisgreat 5y ago

Had mine for a couple weeks, has some trouble sleeping / waking in Ubuntu 21.10 but aside from that (and the poor speakers) it's basically perfect. Trackpad is good and I don't see any battery drain issues. Definitely easier experience than getting Linux on other modern laptops.

causi 5y ago

Yes, I'll be excited about version 2. Version 1 just has too many missed opportunities. For example, a single type-c bay could accommodate two type-A ports, or one port and one microsd reader. Wasting a whole one on a reader is dumb when most laptops just have one stuck somewhere. Give me a bay with a pop-out bluetooth mouse in it. Give me a non-chiclet keyboard and a touchpad with real buttons and a dGPU option and a removable battery in standard and extended sizes. Why buy a laptop with four interchangeable ports when my normal laptop has two USB-A, one USB-C, HDMI, microsd, and a charge port all at the same time? Heck you can't even charge the Framework unless you leave one port as USB-C.

gtvwill 5y ago
Well common then bunj. Jump on the kicads and fart out a add on board for your dual usb type A's, or any of the other add ons you mentioned. I mean hell why not just go all out and slap usb-c double sided on a single PCB! You should be able to cram at least 4 in the same area! Point is you can do that w/ framework. Fat luck getting dell or some other behemoth to design a device you can do that with. They have done a stellar job given how many have had hopes and dreams to do similar but haven't even got a product in people's hands.
kmeisthax 5y ago
There's been discussions about dual-port expansion cards on the Framework forums[0], but the problem is finding a chip that will pass through all the things you expect USB-C to handle over both ports. This is actually a larger problem with USB-C, as each altmode is basically a different spec that reuses the same connector, with lots of negotiation and custom electrical requirements involved. So any moderately niche application will either require custom silicon or have absurd limitations. You could obviously wire up an off-the-shelf USB3 hub controller in such a way as to get two USB3 Type-C ports in an expansion card. (I don't think two type-As would fit.) However, you won't be able to charge the laptop, use external displays, or connect external GPUs through either of the ports... which is kind of the expectation that people have with Type-C ports. If they sold such an expansion card, there would probably be plenty of people angry that they can't just have this one card for charging and dongles, and then fill their other bays with storage drives. Related example: fiber-optic Type-C cables for long-run use basically only come in two flavors, DP and Thunderbolt. And the source device has to use that one specific altmode; there is no downgrading to USB 3 or 2. [0] https://community.frame.work/t/dual-usb-c-expansion-card-mockup/2325/66 https://community.frame.work/t/dual-usb-c-expansion-card-moc...

qudat 5y ago

Running arch with wayland and sway on a framework. Setting up sleep-then-hibernate via systemd works beautifully. I only lose a few % overnight. That’s the thing with running Linux as a desktop, you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right. Battery life is a non issue for me on the framework. The speakers on the other hand is a brutal downgrade. More thoughts here comparing a 2018 mbp: https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html

freedomben 5y ago
> That’s the thing with running Linux as a desktop, you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right. If you're running arch with wayland and sway, then yes absolutely. For people who stick with the default (often Gnome) I haven't had to tweak anything in many years. So I would just s/Linux/customized Linux/ or something like that. Mainly it only matters because some people will be scared away by "you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right" so accuracy is important to me.
- thom 5y ago
  What distro are you on with hibernate working out of the box (with an encrypted filesystem hopefully)?

frakkingcylons 5y ago

> The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers. Hold on. Which reviewers received payments in return for positive coverage of the laptop?

zmk5 5y ago
None of them did. I think this person is just making that up.
sensitivefrost 5y ago
None of them, they're being massively hyperbolic and disingenuous because a piece of hardware isn't perfect the first iteration thus the reviewers who think a great device is great must be paid.
GauntletWizard 5y ago
Not that I agree with the characterization, but they might be referring to Linus Sebastian of Linux Tech Tips, who invested a bunch of money into the company: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg
- Wuzado 5y ago
  But that's the other way around!
nrp 5y ago
Arriving at this thread late, but we have never paid a reviewer and it’s unlikely we ever will. For reviewers like Linus Tech Tips and other YouTubers who do a mix of sponsored and non-sponsored reviews (and provide a clear disclaimer of which ones are which), we’ve only followed the non-sponsored path. We discussed investment with Linus only after his review, and before making a decision on it, he brought it in front of his community to flag the risks of future conflicts of interest. Since completing the investment, he has also continued to flag that potential conflict in additional videos he has posted.

freedomben 5y ago

> The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers. Just because people have a different opinion than you doesn't mean they are hyperbolic paid reviewers. I love the trackpad, although I did have a minor issue out of the box where I had to click kind of hard toward the bottom center to get it to start working. I expect those things will go away as they get better. It's gotta be damn hard to put together such a complex hardware product.

TranquilMarmot 5y ago

??? I absolutely love the touchpad on the Framework. I think people got spoiled by Macbook touchpads- no, and I mean NO, Linux/Windows laptops out there have a comparable touchpad to the Macbook. What the Framework has is good for what's available. Honestly I don't mind tap-to-click vs. press-to-click. I can agree that the speakers aren't stellar but that's something I don't care about on a laptop since I always have on headphones or I'm just using the speakers for video conferencing or something. Never experienced any background static when using headphones.

aunty_helen 5y ago
They did change the audio chip due to supply chain issues. My laptop was right around the time they changed so I'm not sure which I've got. But there's an audible tone and then static and then an audible tone when there's no sound. So it's obvious that it's switching on and then off. This is with a pair of akg K371.
worthless-trash 5y ago
I think the macbook ones are hot garbage compared to my lenovo. I think people get a bit brainwashed when it comes to mac hardware.
na85 5y ago
>I think people got spoiled by Macbook touchpads- no, and I mean NO, Linux/Windows laptops out there have a comparable touchpad to the Macbook. What the Framework has is good for what's available. That's a dealbreaker for me. I'm not one of those people that carries around en external mouse and stuff. I bought a laptop for a reason. "Better than the hot garbage trackpad on my wife's Dell" is not good enough.
- TranquilMarmot 5y ago
  Then sad to say you will be stuck on Apple hardware for the foreseeable future. It's all a matter of preference, too- I used to have a newer Dell and thought the trackpad was totally fine.

ksec 5y ago

Your link actually answered your question in the 2nd reply. >That’s not subpar, that’s standard. There’s a reason why macbook touchpads are so widely praised. Trackpad improvement in current gen PC is a very recent thing. After people trashing PC laptop trackpad for years, and Microsoft throwing in some R&D money to help improve the situation. And again if you are comparing to a Macbook, most PC speaker has been garbage for years. Only when reviewer start comparing their PC laptop speakers to Macbook did they start to put effort into improving it. I dont know any reviewer actually said it is Macbook Killer. It would actually be a stupid thing to say. ( Show them to me so I will take notes ). But I am not surprised because current generation so called reviewers have practically little hardware and supply chain knowledge. There are of compromise being made to have it all fixable. But they also put in the extra effort in motherboard reliability design. And things that aren't so obvious. Compared to Macbook which is all integrated. ( Although that is changing now, you see more individual components "blocks" being used ) I think it is an expectation problem. And may be people should not have overhyped it so much.