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Bringing the Framework Laptop to more of the world
- slavah 5y agoGreat laptop. My only wish they would hire professional support. It is none existing atm. And if you get their attention, expect to get FAQ article responce which you already read 10 times. Otherwise your best bet forums.
- m6w6 5y agoI would be really tempted, but there are still a couple things putting me off: * Intel only * Windows only ... sorry boy and mum are arguing over homework -- gotta run!
- byefruit 5y agoIntel only at the moment is correct but Windows only? TFA says "no OS" as an option, so you're free to install what you like.
- evronm 5y agoIndeed. Happily using Void Linux on mine. Took some doing (kernel downgrade being the most annoying), but it works great now.
- bla3 5y agoIt's possible to install Linux, but it requires a bunch of fiddling. And even then power management tends to not work great. I'd love if Linux has as officially supported and just worked.
- humanwhosits 5y agoA pre-install option for linux would increase user trust that it'll "just work"
- terinjokes 5y agoAs someone with a Dell XPS 9310 for work where Linux is a pre-install option, I can tell you it definitely doesn't mean it "just works". The Framework I got for personal use, on the other hand, worked OOTB with a Linux USB installer.
- kaladin-jasnah 5y agoI have an XPS 13 (forget the model number but I think it had an 8th-generation Intel CPU) that came with Linux and it definitely wasn't "just works" when I bought it (sleep/wake was kind-of broken and such) but a month or so later, it did magically start working (and nothing else was really broken).
- terinjokes 5y agoThe 9310 is an 11th generation Intel CPU, that I've had for over a year now. While it certainly was even more broken when I first got it, after the first quarter improvements seem to have stopped happening. Things like WiFi, Bluetooth, sleep, power management, and video output are still fairly flaky. People elsewhere in this thread complain about the battery in sleep for the Framework, and I confirm the same with mine, but losing a few percent a night is nothing compare to the Dell, which goes from 100 to 0 overnight.
- imilk 5y agoPeople have been waiting for a Linux that "just works" for decades. And they'll probably still be waiting for the next 20 years. But that's not really the point of using Linux.
- hutzlibu 5y ago"But that's not really the point of using Linux." That philosophy is probably part of the reason, why linux on the desktop stays in its small niche inside tech circles. Most people, myself included, indeed want a system that "just works" - to get the actual work done. And then if the basics work, I can enjoy the full freedom to tweak it to my needs in infinity. But only very few people enjoy "freedom to tinker", when it means "mandatory tinkering" to get basic functionality. My best linux times were indeed, when stuff just worked. I was really surprised the first time I used a live Linux cd and everything "just worked". No manual driver installing, like I had known from windows. It booted up and everything was just there. It was different, but it worked. And then I discovered the endless possibilities and freedom to change ANYTHING. But fast forward to today: my quite modern laptop still has standby/resume issues on linux, making it hard to enjoy it at times. And I don't feel like compiling the kernel myself to maybe see a slight improvement.
- imilk 5y agoI bought a DIY Framework and installed Pop_OS, everything was working well after 5 minutes of "fiddling". So if that's a reason for you to not buy a computer, I'd suggest that Linux may not be for you.
- mohanmcgeek 5y agoThere's a Linux configuration https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop
- humanwhosits 5y agoSure, but when you look at the ordering page, it doesn't mention linux as an OS option, just Windows or no OS
- imilk 5y agoIt takes 10 minutes to install Linux from a boot drive and have everything setup as you need. Bizarre to me that those 10 minutes would determine whether or not you spend the next x years with a computer.
- isaac21259 5y agoDo you think a significant amount of people who want to run Linux will want it preinstalled for them?
- raman162 5y agoI personally do. A "just works" configuration will be ideal for me. Anytime I install linux on a new computer, I find myself spending too much time tinkering with configuration settings to make basic things like adjusting keyboard brightness and volume control work with the respective keys.
- rozab 5y agoAt first this comment made me angry (it's Linux, the whole point is user choice, what would be the benefit in preinstalling!) - but I suppose System76 have really showed how much better things can be with Pop!_OS. I would expect the vast majority of users will be using Linux though, so calling it Windows only seems a little misleading. There is an option to get no OS and avoid the Windows tax.
- trelane 5y agoI'd rather pay to add Linux support rather than skip the windows tax.
- hk1337 5y agoI’m with you in the “Intel Only” but not the “Windows only”. Windows is the only one you have to pay for, so it’s the only one with an option. If you don’t want Windows, then choose the “bring your own” option and download your Linux distribution.
- sudders 5y agoCan't wait for framework laptop to run Linux/Ubuntu stable (without battery drain issues) Then I'll be switching all the developers in our company over to a new machine. (Currently running XPS 13, but we are due an upgrade, especially on memory)
- deepsun 5y agoWhat is battery drain issue? I have Framework laptop with Linux Mint (Ubuntu inside), and don't see any issues. If you mean high consumption in "shallow sleep" -- I switched to "deep sleep" in the first day.
- willmorrison 5y agoI’m using Arch with Wayland and Sway and I notice very little battery drain. I generally shut it down overnight though. Do most people rarely shut down their laptops?
- hypothermic 5y agoI assume most people use FDE nowadays. Unless you're using a really well modified LUKS setup the encryption keys stay in RAM while the PC is hibernating/sleeping. So I think it's reasonable to assume most people shut their laptop down overnight.
- Abishek_Muthian 5y ago> without battery drain issues Battery drain seems to be a common serious issue among enthusiast linux hardware, e.g. PinePhone, CutiePi and now Framework. Is this a coincidence or is it due to incompatible ACPI on non-standard hardware?
- aunty_helen 5y agoThis is a point that people should remember if they're thinking about purchasing a framework. This is still very much beta hardware. The battery drain is annoying, it's around 30-50% per night depending on what addon cards you have. I've got a setup that puts it close to 40% per night so the laptop has to live on charger over night if I want to use it the next day. However, the thing that's really stopping me from using my laptop (it has sat in my office for the last 3 weeks with its lid closed) is the touchpad. https://community.frame.work/t/subpar-touchpad/3962 https://community.frame.work/t/subpar-touchpad/3962 External mouse only. The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers. Edit: Also, the I'll throw in the speakers being absolute garbage as well. Think 1 step above 90s pc speaker. And the sound device has a constant background static when using headphones which clicks on when there's sound and then 2 seconds after any sound being played clicks off.
- Queue29 5y agoWill order one the day there is an AMD option.
- ChuckNorris89 5y agoEveryone says that, but realistically, at the size of their company, I can't imagine they have the resources to design, test and support both Intel and AMD designs in parallel at the present. HW development is insanely capital intensive and they're far away from the resources of the likes of Asus and MSI, let alone Lenovo or Dell.
- aunty_helen 5y agoThey recently recieved a fair chunk of funding so are on the growth path. I hope they do release a 15inch AMD based device.
- deadmutex 5y agoAnd then the posts will be "I'll order it once they build a custom ARM soc" :).
- Gigachad 5y agoBy the time they work that out, RISC-V will be the new trend.
- freedomben 5y agoI'll be among the first to buy a RISC-V based framework :-D
- twblalock 5y agoThis is the problem with trying to please power users. There is no monolithic bloc of them. They all want different things. AMD vs Intel? Touchscreens? Strong opinions about screen aspect ratio and resolution, keyboard layout, touchpads, wifi chipset brand, GPU brand, etc.? All there. I wish the company luck, but they are targeting the most picky consumer market there is.
- jacknews 5y agoWaiting for a 'Framework Surface'. Modularity could be a big advantage for smaller companies - getting a decent system (cpu/ram etc), and a great screen in one package is enough of a challenge. Add in touchpad, keyboard, hinges, etc, and it's no wonder only the premium large manufacturers seem able to pull off an all-round great machine. Plus the tablet form-factor is just more versatile than a clamshell laptop.
- ghostly_s 5y agoInteresting that the only two new laptops that have tempted me in years (the Framework and the new MBP) both arrived at roughly the same time yet with wildly different design philosophies.
- gtvwill 5y agoI find it interesting that the mbp garnered so much attention from tech folk. Perf AVG, build eh. Ethos...terrible. yet still. Gets people in the door to buy it. Humans are wack.
- adamrt 5y agoPerf Avg? I thought the M1 was absurdly fast, no?
- derbOac 5y agoI have a macbook and am happy with it, so not a hater, but... A lot of outlets have pointed out that the M1 chip came out in this kind of interim period between Intel and AMD releases, so performance comparisons were a little misleading. If you compare M1 chips to more recent AMD chips (I'm less clear about Intel), they're more similar. There's differences in power use and singlecore versus multicore attributes but overall they're much more similar than you'd conclude based on when M1 first came out. M1 is still very nice and efficient, but not absurdly better, or maybe even better at all. There's a lot of issues with memory use (leaks, excessive use) on M1 laptops. There was just a post about this here on HN. The issue is sometimes raised without awareness of it as a general trend, but it keeps coming up over and over. So far I haven't seen any explanation for why it happens or how to avoid it, but it's real. Just Google "macbook memory leaks" and you'll see plenty of discussion. As far as I know, there's been some red herring solutions but no actual resolution.
- ashton314 5y agoOpening my Emacs config on a top i9 mbp takes an average of 3–4 seconds. On an M1: <1s.
- yumraj 5y agoAny plans for 15" anytime soon? I just hope my current laptop can hold out till whenever that is, else it'll have to be the 16" MBP with $400 for 32GB RAM upgrade :(
- abstract_put 5y agoI'm really hopeful a 15" is not too distant (but seems like it might be). I have an aging Dell XPS 9550, but there's not been much I've wanted to jump at. I looked briefly at the System76 Kudu - are there any go-to 15" Linux-friendly workstations? It seems a lot of developer-type folks have moved to cloud focused work, at least in my bubble the raw computing power seems to be less and less valued.
- rgrmrts 5y agoI just got a Dell Precision 5560. I’m running FreeBSD on it, but based on hardware Linux should run well. It’s pretty powerful so far (comparable to my 2019 i9 mbp roughly but I haven’t measured). I’m not sure what battery life will be like. I haven’t finished tuning my installation so I can’t really measure reliably. Overall the hardware is really solid though.
- rgrmrts 5y agoUpdate: battery life was not great :’) I might stick with my MacBook Pro for a while longer.
- COGlory 5y agoThose complaining about Linux power drain: are you using deep, or s2idle? I find deep to be pretty close to windows with power drain on my framework.
- avl999 5y agoI hate this trend of apple style trackpads that take up most of the real estate and keep registering false positives when you type. I have to use a macbook for work and most of the time I can use it just fine in clamshell mode connected to external keyboard/peripherals but ocassionally when I am not at my desk and have to interact directly with the laptop it's an absolutely atrocious experience due to that damn trackpad.
- culopatin 5y agoTo you maybe. I hate small trackpads. I move the arrow more than I type and palm detection works well for me, so who’s right?
- XorNot 5y agoWell you'd hope the Framework would mean neither of us have to be. This is what I've ultimately found to put me off the project - what I can customise I mostly don't need to, and the things I'd really like choice on: keyboard style, trackpad, etc. I can't.
- zapdrive 5y agoYou wanna bring it to more of the world? Try adding crypto as payment method. I know you have a political stand against using crypto (the "crypto is bad for environment" FUD spread by traditional financial players), I hope you'll get your heads out of you know where and do this to actually bring framework to the unbanked masses.
- thaway2839 5y agoI'm sure the coal plants that were shutting down until crypto miners bought them is just pure FUD. And I guess Satoshi's paper on Bitcoin, which shows that Bitcoin is fundamentally run by whoever has the most CPU power, which has naturally triggered a CPU power arms race which has led to a corresponding increase in power consumption is also FUD. (Once/if alternatives like Ethereum's Proof of Stake are the dominant force in crypto then yes, power consumption will not be a problem, but it is a very real problem now, and if it had simply been dismissed as FUD then solutions like Proof of Stake would never have been created).
- imilk 5y ago
- goodpoint 5y agoIs it Open Hardware? Where are the schematics? If not, is it really that different than a thinkpad?
- zucker42 5y agoI recall a recent HN post about reverse engineering a thinkpad EC in order to get around battery DRM. With framework that would be doubly unnecessary because the EC firmware is open source. Also they open source stuff having to do with their add on modules. Plus, I'd wager a guess that Intel/AMD make you sign an NDA that would probably rule an open mainboard (I don't know this for sure). What may need to happen to get high end open hardware is for a company with the right ethos to become big enough to have negotiating power or to design their own SOC. Framework is trying to strike a balance between producing laptops competitive with mass market offerings and providing users control. If you want freedom over all else you should probably buy a Librem or MNT reform.
- goodpoint 5y ago> strike a balance Calling it "balance" is a big stretch when all the important hardware is closed and there are no independent 3rd parties selling replacement parts.
- toomanydoubts 5y agoCan someone who owns a framework tell me wether the lapthp provides methods for neutering the Intel backdoors(AKA IME)?
- hypothermic 5y agoNo. The IME could be disabled via hardware like Purism have done with their Librem series, but it seems like Framework hasn't made the effort to do so. They also still use a proprietary firmware on their ECs. In the future they plan to support Coreboot but if you ask me it is far down their bucket list.
- Jerry2 5y agoOne of the members of my team ordered a Framework Laptop, the Professional edition, about 4 months ago to replace his old Lenovo. In the first week, he had battery drain issues. Even when he put it to sleep, it would drain the battery. He had to keep it plugged in at all times. He tried few distros (including the older version of Ubuntu they recommend) and the problems persisted. His screen also had issues and colors would slightly shift. I lent him my colorimeter and he said the monitor would lose calibration after several days. He also complained about trackpad not tracking his finger properly. In the end, he returned it. I think he said you have 30 days to return it. Hope they fix these issues.
- freedomben 5y agoI've had the battery drain issues too, and it sucks bad. That said I remember seeing a fix a little while ago and I haven't had any issues recently. I run Fedora 35 though so my kernel stays pretty new. On Ubuntu you're gonna be stuck on an older kernel unless you install the newer one.
- kinduff 5y agoI am really excited about this laptop but I'm reading reviews like this a lot more now that they are delivering. Their community forum has a lot of users asking for solutions for the problems you mentioned and even Linux compatibility issues. I really hope they fix these issues too. A friend made a joke, which I find hilarious: "you can always replace all the parts that are failing, isn't that the point?".
- freedomben 5y agoI was an early user and I've run into a couple of problems on mine, but Framework does a good job getting information out there and fixing things. Much better experience than I've had with other vendors where once it ships that's it.
- kinduff 5y agoThat's what I'm seeing too, and I want to trust them. Can't wait for them to ship to my country, will order one for sure.
- bloodyplonker22 5y agoI'm really hoping to see an AMD option for better power efficiency.
- Const-me 5y agoGood one, but IMO a bit too expensive for the specs. I recently got a new laptop with Ryzen 5 5600U, 32GB RAM, and 2TB SSD. The laptop is HP ProBook 445 G8. RAM and SSD were sold separately, the upgrade only took 10 minutes and 6 screws. I paid less than €1000 including the upgrades. The laptop is comparable to the Framework professional they offer for €2280. AMD CPU is better, 15442 versus 11036 points of cpubenchmark.net (that’s 6 cores versus 4). Surprisingly, Intel GPU is better, 2 versus 1.6 TFlops FP32. RAM amount is the same, AMD has twice the SSD storage. The only large downside is the display, my laptop has 16x9 1080p 14” IPS, the Framework has more pixels and 3x2 aspect ratio.
- nine_k 5y agoThat's what economy of scale does for you. Also, this is what integration, that is, limiting the customization options, does for you. Having a niche and highly customizable thing costs you extra.
- Const-me 5y ago> Having a niche and highly customizable thing costs you extra. Niche sure, but I'm not sure I agree it's highly customizable. Not all laptops are designed like macbooks with just a couple ports and soldered everything. There're still good models made in large volumes. They are often made for corporate sector, but who cares about their marketing as long as the hardware's good. I have already replaced RAM and SSD in my laptop as soon as it was delivered. WiFi is user upgradeable as well, but I don't have a reason to replace that part. It does not need port expansion cards because all these ports are already built-in. Also, for people in US or other countries where their online configurator works, that model is even more customizable than the Framework laptop: supports a choice of 5 CPU models, a few different display panels (albeit I have to admit none of them is as good as the one in the Framework), optional infrared webcam, couple options for keyboard.
- gentle 5y agoI'm looking forward to buying one of these as soon as there's good Linux support.
- hiimshort 5y agoI've had my Framework laptop for a few months now and NixOS (GNOME desktop) has been working excellently.
- hahajk 5y agoSame, although I use Nixos with Pantheon WM. Since it boots to desktop in 10-15 seconds I don’t have to deal with the overnight power issues everyone complains about. And since it doesn’t run a hundred automatic background processes it’s much quicker to start working than my MBP was. Printing on the other hand…
- hiimshort 5y agoI haven't done so yet, but I've been meaning to set up deep sleep so the machine effectively shuts down and stops drawing as much power. > Printing on the other hand... Oh dear. I haven't had to print with it yet, I hope it isn't too bad. My last experiences with Linux printing went well, but then again that was back when I was using Ubuntu.
- kelnos 5y agoThey've supported Linux from the beginning: https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop I don't have one (yet?), so I can't speak to how well they actually achieved this goal, though.
- crossroadsguy 5y agoHeh. I saw the Ireland flag and immediately thought maybe just they forgot to put a wheel in the middle and just tilted it a bit wrong and looks they selling in my country as well now :) I think I will just have to get a Dell or HP or Lenovo by now (if not another Mac). By the time they will decide to sell on this side of the planet they will either go defunct (just a sad prediction) or customised laptops won't be a limited fad-like anymore.
- toastal 5y agoI'm still hoping Linus Sebastian's influence can get them to have wide-gamut OLED panel option.
- hbgl 5y agoWith 12th gen Intel and Ryzen 6000 knocking on the door, it does not feel right to be pre ordering 11th gen 4c/8t Intel laptops. If I were in the market for a new laptop I would get one of the new 16:10 ThinkPads.
- kelnos 5y agoYeah, I'm feeling the same. I was considering ordering one last fall, when I think it would have been reasonable to get an 11th-gen, but I couldn't justify a new laptop purchase then. Now I'd probably wait for a 12th-gen mainboard before ordering. I'm also still not sure how I feel about the 3:2 screen. I've gotten so used to 16:9 & 16:10 that I think it'd be hard to go back to something similar to a 4:3 screen again.
- q-base 5y agoI have an X1 Carbon Gen 9 with Ubuntu as my daily driver. Everything just works. Sleep, fingerprint etc. The one thing the ended up keeping me from the Framework laptops was the lack of Home, End, Insert, Delete buttons. Having had a number of Thinkpad machines I have gotten used to using them all the time. I also quite enjoy that I can put my hands on the keyboard and almost not move them at all while using the little knob for mouse-activities when keyboard shortcuts run out.
- pkphilip 5y agoWaiting for you guys to start shipping in India