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An elaborate con that tricked dozens into working for a fake design agency

244 points by bhartzer 5y ago

SkipperCat 5y ago
This is so similar to the Anna Sorokin scam (now famous via Netflix). I think the Insta culture has made people so hungry for the image of success that they'll do anything to achieve it. Taking that a step further, I do wonder if crimes like this will get public sentiment behind removing anonymity from the Internet. There's plenty of reasons to keep people's privacy. But society will only tolerate so much criminal behavior before handing over their freedom for order.
- blowski 5y ago
  Such scams have always been true for whatever reason. Ancient Rome had specific laws around pretending to be other people, suggesting it was a big problem 2000 years ago. If this is used to justify removing anonymity from the internet, I doubt it will be the real motivation for those pushing it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- gkoberger 5y ago
  The Tinder Swindler on Netflix is another example of this. Theranos isn't far off, either, although it was more "legitimate". I disagree with your last paragraph, though. These weren't "anonymous" people, they were liars (often using their real identities and definitely using their real faces). There have been con artists for decades. These people aren't trying to steal money and sneak off into the darkness. They're trying to brute force their way into their version of success, where their actual real identities are attached.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Fake it until you make it is incredibly toxic for everyone - it gets people in over their heads in situations they have no experience for, it convinces folks to scam everyone around them, and it causes mental health issues for everyone as they can’t figure out if they should be more or less delusional than others. It’s about time for some actual ‘experience and responsibility matter’ to come back - but it will have to get worse before it gets better, and hopefully we don’t get stuck in the ‘scam zone’
- ethbr0 5y ago
  > so hungry for the image of success that they'll do anything to achieve it I'd flip that sideways a bit and say that it's normalized the achievement of success (that is, the end rewards) to consumers / viewers, while omitting the effort to get there, to such a degree that no one thinks to look for or ask "How?" Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong.
  - nerdawson 5y ago
    > Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong. 90k Instagram followers is all the verification most people need.
  - bunana 5y ago
    > Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong. I'm shocked that apparently no one looked up the supposed Madbird office (edit: except for Gemma, who had been working there already for two weeks!). Has covid really made people so comfortable working at home to the point where they don't care to know where their employer's physical office is? Especially for the people who were "hired" abroad. In my mind, I would be extra careful to audit a potential employer if they're based in a different country than where I live.
- tmnvix 5y ago
  God forbid the public see the anonymous nature of business entities as the problem here - at least when seeking justice. > The tribunal order was made against the company, not against Ali Ayad as an individual. So if Madbird was insolvent, like Ali said, there was no way the tribunal could force it to pay any of the owed wages.
  - autoexec 5y ago
    Exactly, corporations keep telling us they are people, but somehow they never face the kinds of consequences that actual people do. That said, I'd be surprised if there wasn't something Ali Ayad could be charged with directly.
  - bsder 5y ago
    That doesn't fly in California. Back wages are one of the few things that officers of a company can be found personally liable for.
    - Lascaille 5y ago
      Including in the case of a Delaware corporation with offices in California?
      - bsder 5y ago
        Yes. Offices in California are governed by California labor law--otherwise companies could dodge things like the "non-competes are unenforceable" in California labor law. Even if you are a Delaware corporation for stock purposes, there is some paperwork that grants you reciprocity in California and allows you to operate there. As part of that, you are subject to certain California laws.
- shakna 5y ago
  > But society will only tolerate so much criminal behavior before handing over their freedom for order. There's already movement to remove this [0], whether or not it's approved by the public, and whether or not it's deemed to actually be helpful at all by the experts in the field. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/28/coalition-bill-would-force-social-media-companies-to-reveal-identities-of-online-bullies https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/28/coali...
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  To be blunt to people who were swindled were either dumb or naieve. they learned a valuable lesson. I'm not sure if we need to put safety guards on every possible bad thing that can happen in the world
  - Lascaille 5y ago
    >I'm not sure if we need to put safety guards on every possible bad thing that can happen in the world Uh, it's literally the job of government to protect people from themselves.
system2 5y ago
Why does this surprise anyone? These companies exist in LA everywhere. Checkout https://coalitiontechnologies.com/who-we-are https://coalitiontechnologies.com/who-we-are None of the cartoon characters are real humans, no portfolio, no bio, just a name (not even a damn last name) and a "business title". They hire free people from craigslist and "interview" them on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=coalition+technolgies+interview https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=coalition+techn... They hire people, promise the same things. They quit after a week or so. They make companies sign ridiculous contracts and never deliver either. Ali is not guilty, marketing is purely scam these days, he is just following the trend.
- Hokusai 5y ago
  > Ali is not guilty, marketing is purely scam these days, he is just following the trend. Following criminals is not a valid justification in front of a jury. Crime is a common occurrence, it does not make it not crime. Everybody is the same is just an excuse for criminals to not feel guilty about their acts.
  - kahrl 5y ago
    "BUT EVERYBODY ELSE WAS DOING IT!" - 6 year old me.
    - AussieWog93 5y ago
      There is legal precedent for this, at least in Australia. If you are fired for doing something wrong that others are also doing (and they're not fired for it), you have a case for an unfair dismissal suit [1]. I'm sure it applies elsewhere too. [1] IANAL
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - system2 5y ago
    True, I am of course not supporting Ali, but singling him out as if he created a scheme on his own is wrong. I can easily bet my one month salary on 99% of marketing companies out there doing the same. I know it from personal experience because I had to work with many from Los Angeles thru my clients. All deception and lies. Ali said 6 months commission and no client signed. Does he owe money? No. Did he lie? Yes, because he created fake profiles and lied about his resume as well as his company portfolio. Every marketing company does the same without an exception.
duxup 5y ago
> But when we got hold of the GQ issue and opened it to page 63, the photo of Ali wasn't there. It was an advert for a watch. Ali Ayad had never modelled for Massimo Dutti, and he had never been featured in British GQ. That’s an impressive level of detail, faking a magazine ad.
- laurent92 5y ago
  Is it just about inserting a sheet of paper with a good quality photo at page 63?
  - duxup 5y ago
    Good photo on paper that looks convincing (or good photoshopping). Either way that’s an interesting effort.
    - matsemann 5y ago
      If photoshop it's quite good, not immediately obvious using image forensic tools. So maybe became quite a good designer after making all those fake stuff..? Hehe. Reminds me of kids trying to cheat a test by writing down all answers, only to not have to use that cheat sheet because they ended up accidentally studying for the test by making the sheet.
    - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
      It's quite near the production values of a real fashion ad. Definitely shot by someone with experience and some skill - probably another victim. Given the styling and the obsession with appearances, I'd guess this character is a plain old narcissist. His only real skill is superficial charm. There's no real business ability there, or even much serious interest in running a real business. But being seen to be a CEO and thought leader - that will appeal to him. It's exactly the kind of love bombing -> charm -> attention seeking -> future faking -> increasingly outrageous lies -> reality of outright abuse sequence you'd expect. My guess is he lacks any remorse, because he's likely incapable of it. And he'll be lining up some more victims in some other scheme. A lot of this is unquestionably criminal and illegal, but it's hard to get the police interested in a case like this. And even if the victims group together and take him to small claims he'll find some way not to pay them.
0898 5y ago
The article is a bit laboured. "This profile photo wasn't real. And this profile wasn't real. And the company wasn't real! And the pitch documents were stolen!" We get it – it was a fake company.
- arrakis2021 5y ago
  You’re right it reads like it’s trying to be the next Theranos expose
- Traster 5y ago
  The BBC is not a top tier organisation for original reporting. Just a couple of weeks ago they basically got taken in by a crypto-bro who claimed to have made millions (what he didn't claim was that he made those millions by scamming people). They published a teaser article in the morning to boost their exclusive report on TV in the evening. Basically an hour after posting the teaser article they got called out on their naivete, and pulled the tv programme. citation: https://www.cityam.com/bbc-pulls-crypto-documentary-amid-scam-claims/ https://www.cityam.com/bbc-pulls-crypto-documentary-amid-sca...
PaulKeeble 5y ago
The lack of minimum wage is a bit of a giveaway, no one should be taking a job that doesn't at least meet that minimum legal requirement its clearly illegal without one.
beaconstudios 5y ago
This is just the extreme end of "fake it till you make it" hustle culture that's also extremely prevalent in startup culture. Presumably this guy thought "I'll hire a bunch of people for free then we'll get contracts then I'll have the money to pay them (assuming I don't run off with the money)". Somewhat related, one of the things that made me stop freelancing online when I was a teenager was the number of people who upon job completion would ask me to wait until they had the money to pay, or try to get out of paying entirely.
- hammock 5y ago
  People are jumping to conclusions that this was some sort of criminal enterprise. The article makes no claims of criminal activity. There are clearly fibs - none though that are particularly unique in the design agency world. Perhaps there is some actual criminal fraud here, but the case is not laid out specifically. The fact is all these "jobfished" people signed up willingly for a job that was purely commission-based, and had the agency actually been able to attract a paying client in the first six months, who is to say Ali wouldn't have made good on his promises to hire people on salary, etc.? I know I'm going to be downvoted for this comment, but I wanted to lay out a contrarian point of view that doesn't just immediately jump on the bandwagon of the current Anna Sorokin/Tinder Swindler zeitgeist.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    Luring people to work for you under false pretenses should be considered criminal fraud. They gave up other jobs and opportunities for this one. It directly impacted their economic security. If you put fake executives into an investment document with fake work samples and fake client claims, that would definitely be considered criminal fraud.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    It's more complicated than just "did he commit crime" (which he did, in terms of employment - you can't pay people £0 for full time work in the UK). His actions were fraudulent in terms of faking so many aspects of the company and his own profile, and he misled people by guaranteeing an income at the end of the probation. He was both criminal and manipulative but I'm sure in his mind he was just working on his grindset or whatever excuse internet hustlers use for ripping people off these days.
arcastroe 5y ago
Sorry if I missed it, but we're there any criminal charges filed? Or was all of this legal?
- rwmj 5y ago
  The UK police have essentially given up on fraud[1]. The amount of fraud and scams going on here at the moment is incredible. It would be expensive and difficult for the individual contractors to sue him, I expect most of them have "moved on". [1] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/feb/20/online-victim-blaming-and-the-emotional-price-of-falling-for-a-scam https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/feb/20/online-victim-... quote: Fraud now makes up 42% of all crime and only one in 700 fraud cases resulted in a conviction in 2019.
  - well_i_guess 5y ago
    Is this the effect that we’re better aware of fraud and the like or is it that society is increasingly failing to prosecute crime? I feel as though we’re in a strange spiral where criminality is increasingly forgiven even in cases it shouldn’t be due to the ineptitude of government. I’ve talked to many, many people who are of the view that society is no longer just, not because of undue prosecution, but because of no prosecution. I’ll admit, I was swayed by the arguments of certain protests a couple years ago, but it seems like a deeper law/order reaction is brewing after the downstream effects of the policies and attitudes have come into play.
    - rwmj 5y ago
      There's no mystery about it, the UK government has aggressively cut funding to the police and criminal justice system. https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/criminal-justice-system_0.pdf https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/file...
    - TomSwirly 5y ago
      > is it that society is increasingly failing to prosecute crime? Depends on the society. The US has an awful lot of people in jail. However, society in general is fairly universally failing to prosecute certain classes of crime - ones where rich people steal from poor people. It is the unevenness of prosecution that enrages people. A rich kid can rape an unconscious woman and leave her in a dumpster, and get no jail time, whereas someone can go to jail for five years for voting as a felon, not deliberately simply because she didn't know that the US disenfranchises criminals for life in many states.
awb 5y ago
The article implies that the scam never made any money which is perhaps just as shocking as the con itself. I ran a real web agency and clients almost never asked for references and were happy to pay up to 50% of a 5-figure project total upfront to get started, even from remote or overseas clients that I never met in person who found me through SEO. Crazy that they couldn’t land even 1 contract with whatever stolen portfolio examples they desired.
- desireco42 5y ago
  It is really weird that they didn't start making a ton of money from all the energy and work people did. This guy must be some kind of sociopath to do this to people, it was easy to make this work even if it started as a scam.
- itronitron 5y ago
  Very weird to hire people to do work, and especially convincing them to leave their current job, when you don't have any work that needs to be done. Having said that, a variant of this type of behavior is not uncommon in large organizations where 'go-getters' can self-manifest by creating chatter and finding underlings. But in that case there is already a revenue flow to support time and attention.
  - hammock 5y ago
    >Very weird to hire people to do work, and especially convincing them to leave their current job, when you don't have any work that needs to be done. Spec work and pitch work are very much a thing. As counterintuitive or infuriating as it may seem, having no paying clients doesn't mean there is no work to be done, in the agency world.
- smcl 5y ago
  I read this story when I woke up earlier today so I was a little bleary-eyed and may have missed something, but I don't know how accurate that is. We know people didn't get paid but idk if we can be certain the company didn't get any money whatsoever.
sireat 5y ago
What I do not understand how could an enterprise be so incompetent not to attract any clients in 6 months? You have 20-30 very motivated sales people working on landing clients for 6 months, there have to be some sales. Or did this not-quite an agency actually land some real clients and was unable to deliver?
- itronitron 5y ago
  I doubt the agency landed any real clients as the companies Ali claimed to have access to through personal connections and past experience likely stick with vetted design agencies and probably have fairly extensive contract procedures. If Ali had focused on low to mid-tier clients they may have been able to land some contracts, my two cents.
  - zauguin 5y ago
    I would expect that the sales people did focus on mid-tier clients. After all, if they would have approached high-tier clients Ali supposedly had connections with I would expect the responses to show that this isn't real.
    - notahacker 5y ago
      Salespeople work hard to generate leads for Ali and his imaginary cofounder. Ali doesn't follow up. Or maybe he does follow up on one or two that sound like they'll be fun, but the cynical mid-tier firm marketing execs see right though him or his pitch is just a bit too average. I assume the sales team operated like a third party leadgen operation: salespeople spam the market, forward on the handful of responses and have no further involvement in the sales process. If they're getting good performance metrics and being told the company execs are on the cusp of closing big deals based on their work there's not much reason to question them, especially if they're from a different continent and culture but they've been promised a visa and a Western salary once they've passed their first six months.
- webmaven 5y ago
  > What I do not understand how could an enterprise be so incompetent not to attract any clients in 6 months? Most likely in my opinion: they priced themselves out of the market by raising the rates quoted to potential clients in an attempt to cover the ballooning overhead. It wouldn't do to actually land contracts and still go out of business, now would it? Another possibility: They responded to RFPs with proposals that drastically expanded the scope of what was requested (same motivation as above). There are ways to push clients a bit out of their comfort zone and still get their business, but if what was asked for is a new logo and you respond with a proposal for a global corporate identity system and advertising campaign, you might not get very far.
AussieWog93 5y ago
A fair few people acting as if this is a new thing, but I'm not so sure. I had a few old coworkers talk about crazy shit like this that happened in the 90s/00s.
ilikeitdark 5y ago
A similar thing actually happened to me, by a friend of a friend (although we lived in different countries). He was making an adult film that was supposed to be for a big platform. Hired everyone (including some big names), rented condos, film equipment, paid for flights (convinced a producer to front the money for some of it). At the end of the week long shoot he tried disappearing without paying for anything or anyone. And there was no platform involved, it was all made up. And my life was threatened by a few of the people he had "hired" because they thought I knew the guy (although I really didn't and he ripped me off too). This guy Ali sounds like the same kinda psychopath.
chrisma0 5y ago
That first instagram photo of Ali has almost a surreal nature to it. Is it just me or did they somehow photoshop his features to be smaller and his face bigger?!
- can16358p 5y ago
  It's quite easy and as literally everything about this guy is a lie, I'd be surprised if any images of him represent anything real.
tkgally 5y ago
The audio version of this story is being broadcast right now (as I type this) on the BBC World Service. The recording should be available soon at [1]. The interviews with many of the people involved help to bring the story to life. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fvhsf/episodes/player https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fvhsf/episodes/player
Ansil849 5y ago
I don't really understand what the scam was here. I expected this to be the standard kind of fake job scam, where you're asked to front money for the purchasing of equipment or legal bills, or where you're asked to send copies of your identification documents and all that...but what was the point here? None of the people hired were asked to pay money upfront, and were told they would start getting paid after the six months probation period (at which, presumably the guy in charge expected to have some clients). The only thing shady I see being done here is all of the fake co-founders and staff...which I honestly don't understand the reason for, but where actually is the scam?
- yitchelle 5y ago
  I guess the scam is on the folks that took on the jobs and lost money over it. Some of the folks in the story upended their lives over this scam.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    > I guess the scam is on the folks that took on the jobs and lost money over it. Some of the folks in the story upended their lives over this scam. But that's what I don't understand, what was the scam? People upended their jobs, sometimes even quiting salaried positions, to sign a contract to work on commission for a 6 month probation period. And because their sales were zero, the commission was zero. That's not a scam. A scam is something which is a deception or a lie, not terms to which you openly agree to. If you quit your job and go to work for a new company on commission, and then don't make any sales, you were not scammed. You made a poor job decision. The only thing I can see approach a scam was all of the nonexistent people on the staff page, and I don't really see the point of that or how it contributed to anything. To me this looks like a lot of people making poor job decisions, some out of desperation and some out of greed, but I don't see the scam or fraud element.
    - s8s8discourse 5y ago
      The scam is misrepresentation. There's an almost intangible line between "fake it til you make it" and "fraud". There's pushing that line, and there's jumping over it. - Misrepresented previous client list - Misrepresented project experience - Misrepresented personal brand (fake LinkedIn reviews) - Misrepresented other brands (faking reviews from fake Nike employees) - Misrepresented company status (faked employees) - Misrepresented company director status (fake GQ adverts, fake instagram followers) The scam is that an individual carefully constructed a fake reality to sell a "job" to a bunch of individuals under false pretences. This wasn't an honest mistake. It was an orchestrated and premeditated punt at using a group of individuals labour at zero cost to land a big client for significant financial reward for the perpetrator. > A scam is something which is a deception or a lie, not terms to which you openly agree to. "Come join our new agency. We have no client list, or leads, and no pedigree with which to land a big client, and I will be unable to pay you until we land our first client" vs "I am a highly successful creative director with a swathe of personal and professional connections to high value businesses. I am offering a commission only role but given <all of the misrepresentation> we will definitely land 7 figure contracts! You don't have to take my word for it, look at all the <carefully crafted misrepresentation>" Shameful to be insinuating this is an honest business practice, IMO
lifeplusplus 5y ago
what was the scam beside founder being not what he said he was?

244 points by bhartzer 5y ago

This is so similar to the Anna Sorokin scam (now famous via Netflix). I think the Insta culture has made people so hungry for the image of success that they'll do anything to achieve it. Taking that a step further, I do wonder if crimes like this will get public sentiment behind removing anonymity from the Internet. There's plenty of reasons to keep people's privacy. But society will only tolerate so much criminal behavior before handing over their freedom for order.

blowski 5y ago
Such scams have always been true for whatever reason. Ancient Rome had specific laws around pretending to be other people, suggesting it was a big problem 2000 years ago. If this is used to justify removing anonymity from the internet, I doubt it will be the real motivation for those pushing it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gkoberger 5y ago
The Tinder Swindler on Netflix is another example of this. Theranos isn't far off, either, although it was more "legitimate". I disagree with your last paragraph, though. These weren't "anonymous" people, they were liars (often using their real identities and definitely using their real faces). There have been con artists for decades. These people aren't trying to steal money and sneak off into the darkness. They're trying to brute force their way into their version of success, where their actual real identities are attached.
- lazide 5y ago
  Fake it until you make it is incredibly toxic for everyone - it gets people in over their heads in situations they have no experience for, it convinces folks to scam everyone around them, and it causes mental health issues for everyone as they can’t figure out if they should be more or less delusional than others. It’s about time for some actual ‘experience and responsibility matter’ to come back - but it will have to get worse before it gets better, and hopefully we don’t get stuck in the ‘scam zone’
ethbr0 5y ago
> so hungry for the image of success that they'll do anything to achieve it I'd flip that sideways a bit and say that it's normalized the achievement of success (that is, the end rewards) to consumers / viewers, while omitting the effort to get there, to such a degree that no one thinks to look for or ask "How?" Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong.
- nerdawson 5y ago
  > Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong. 90k Instagram followers is all the verification most people need.
- bunana 5y ago
  > Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong. I'm shocked that apparently no one looked up the supposed Madbird office (edit: except for Gemma, who had been working there already for two weeks!). Has covid really made people so comfortable working at home to the point where they don't care to know where their employer's physical office is? Especially for the people who were "hired" abroad. In my mind, I would be extra careful to audit a potential employer if they're based in a different country than where I live.
tmnvix 5y ago
God forbid the public see the anonymous nature of business entities as the problem here - at least when seeking justice. > The tribunal order was made against the company, not against Ali Ayad as an individual. So if Madbird was insolvent, like Ali said, there was no way the tribunal could force it to pay any of the owed wages.
- autoexec 5y ago
  Exactly, corporations keep telling us they are people, but somehow they never face the kinds of consequences that actual people do. That said, I'd be surprised if there wasn't something Ali Ayad could be charged with directly.
- bsder 5y ago
  That doesn't fly in California. Back wages are one of the few things that officers of a company can be found personally liable for.
  - Lascaille 5y ago
    Including in the case of a Delaware corporation with offices in California?
    - bsder 5y ago
      Yes. Offices in California are governed by California labor law--otherwise companies could dodge things like the "non-competes are unenforceable" in California labor law. Even if you are a Delaware corporation for stock purposes, there is some paperwork that grants you reciprocity in California and allows you to operate there. As part of that, you are subject to certain California laws.
shakna 5y ago
> But society will only tolerate so much criminal behavior before handing over their freedom for order. There's already movement to remove this [0], whether or not it's approved by the public, and whether or not it's deemed to actually be helpful at all by the experts in the field. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/28/coalition-bill-would-force-social-media-companies-to-reveal-identities-of-online-bullies https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/28/coali...
edmcnulty101 5y ago
To be blunt to people who were swindled were either dumb or naieve. they learned a valuable lesson. I'm not sure if we need to put safety guards on every possible bad thing that can happen in the world
- Lascaille 5y ago
  >I'm not sure if we need to put safety guards on every possible bad thing that can happen in the world Uh, it's literally the job of government to protect people from themselves.

system2 5y ago

Why does this surprise anyone? These companies exist in LA everywhere. Checkout https://coalitiontechnologies.com/who-we-are https://coalitiontechnologies.com/who-we-are None of the cartoon characters are real humans, no portfolio, no bio, just a name (not even a damn last name) and a "business title". They hire free people from craigslist and "interview" them on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=coalition+technolgies+interview https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=coalition+techn... They hire people, promise the same things. They quit after a week or so. They make companies sign ridiculous contracts and never deliver either. Ali is not guilty, marketing is purely scam these days, he is just following the trend.

Hokusai 5y ago
> Ali is not guilty, marketing is purely scam these days, he is just following the trend. Following criminals is not a valid justification in front of a jury. Crime is a common occurrence, it does not make it not crime. Everybody is the same is just an excuse for criminals to not feel guilty about their acts.
- kahrl 5y ago
  "BUT EVERYBODY ELSE WAS DOING IT!" - 6 year old me.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    There is legal precedent for this, at least in Australia. If you are fired for doing something wrong that others are also doing (and they're not fired for it), you have a case for an unfair dismissal suit [1]. I'm sure it applies elsewhere too. [1] IANAL
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- system2 5y ago
  True, I am of course not supporting Ali, but singling him out as if he created a scheme on his own is wrong. I can easily bet my one month salary on 99% of marketing companies out there doing the same. I know it from personal experience because I had to work with many from Los Angeles thru my clients. All deception and lies. Ali said 6 months commission and no client signed. Does he owe money? No. Did he lie? Yes, because he created fake profiles and lied about his resume as well as his company portfolio. Every marketing company does the same without an exception.

duxup 5y ago

> But when we got hold of the GQ issue and opened it to page 63, the photo of Ali wasn't there. It was an advert for a watch. Ali Ayad had never modelled for Massimo Dutti, and he had never been featured in British GQ. That’s an impressive level of detail, faking a magazine ad.

laurent92 5y ago
Is it just about inserting a sheet of paper with a good quality photo at page 63?
- duxup 5y ago
  Good photo on paper that looks convincing (or good photoshopping). Either way that’s an interesting effort.
  - matsemann 5y ago
    If photoshop it's quite good, not immediately obvious using image forensic tools. So maybe became quite a good designer after making all those fake stuff..? Hehe. Reminds me of kids trying to cheat a test by writing down all answers, only to not have to use that cheat sheet because they ended up accidentally studying for the test by making the sheet.
  - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    It's quite near the production values of a real fashion ad. Definitely shot by someone with experience and some skill - probably another victim. Given the styling and the obsession with appearances, I'd guess this character is a plain old narcissist. His only real skill is superficial charm. There's no real business ability there, or even much serious interest in running a real business. But being seen to be a CEO and thought leader - that will appeal to him. It's exactly the kind of love bombing -> charm -> attention seeking -> future faking -> increasingly outrageous lies -> reality of outright abuse sequence you'd expect. My guess is he lacks any remorse, because he's likely incapable of it. And he'll be lining up some more victims in some other scheme. A lot of this is unquestionably criminal and illegal, but it's hard to get the police interested in a case like this. And even if the victims group together and take him to small claims he'll find some way not to pay them.

0898 5y ago

The article is a bit laboured. "This profile photo wasn't real. And this profile wasn't real. And the company wasn't real! And the pitch documents were stolen!" We get it – it was a fake company.

arrakis2021 5y ago
You’re right it reads like it’s trying to be the next Theranos expose
Traster 5y ago
The BBC is not a top tier organisation for original reporting. Just a couple of weeks ago they basically got taken in by a crypto-bro who claimed to have made millions (what he didn't claim was that he made those millions by scamming people). They published a teaser article in the morning to boost their exclusive report on TV in the evening. Basically an hour after posting the teaser article they got called out on their naivete, and pulled the tv programme. citation: https://www.cityam.com/bbc-pulls-crypto-documentary-amid-scam-claims/ https://www.cityam.com/bbc-pulls-crypto-documentary-amid-sca...

PaulKeeble 5y ago

The lack of minimum wage is a bit of a giveaway, no one should be taking a job that doesn't at least meet that minimum legal requirement its clearly illegal without one.

beaconstudios 5y ago

This is just the extreme end of "fake it till you make it" hustle culture that's also extremely prevalent in startup culture. Presumably this guy thought "I'll hire a bunch of people for free then we'll get contracts then I'll have the money to pay them (assuming I don't run off with the money)". Somewhat related, one of the things that made me stop freelancing online when I was a teenager was the number of people who upon job completion would ask me to wait until they had the money to pay, or try to get out of paying entirely.

hammock 5y ago
People are jumping to conclusions that this was some sort of criminal enterprise. The article makes no claims of criminal activity. There are clearly fibs - none though that are particularly unique in the design agency world. Perhaps there is some actual criminal fraud here, but the case is not laid out specifically. The fact is all these "jobfished" people signed up willingly for a job that was purely commission-based, and had the agency actually been able to attract a paying client in the first six months, who is to say Ali wouldn't have made good on his promises to hire people on salary, etc.? I know I'm going to be downvoted for this comment, but I wanted to lay out a contrarian point of view that doesn't just immediately jump on the bandwagon of the current Anna Sorokin/Tinder Swindler zeitgeist.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Luring people to work for you under false pretenses should be considered criminal fraud. They gave up other jobs and opportunities for this one. It directly impacted their economic security. If you put fake executives into an investment document with fake work samples and fake client claims, that would definitely be considered criminal fraud.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  It's more complicated than just "did he commit crime" (which he did, in terms of employment - you can't pay people £0 for full time work in the UK). His actions were fraudulent in terms of faking so many aspects of the company and his own profile, and he misled people by guaranteeing an income at the end of the probation. He was both criminal and manipulative but I'm sure in his mind he was just working on his grindset or whatever excuse internet hustlers use for ripping people off these days.

arcastroe 5y ago

Sorry if I missed it, but we're there any criminal charges filed? Or was all of this legal?

rwmj 5y ago
The UK police have essentially given up on fraud[1]. The amount of fraud and scams going on here at the moment is incredible. It would be expensive and difficult for the individual contractors to sue him, I expect most of them have "moved on". [1] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/feb/20/online-victim-blaming-and-the-emotional-price-of-falling-for-a-scam https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/feb/20/online-victim-... quote: Fraud now makes up 42% of all crime and only one in 700 fraud cases resulted in a conviction in 2019.
- well_i_guess 5y ago
  Is this the effect that we’re better aware of fraud and the like or is it that society is increasingly failing to prosecute crime? I feel as though we’re in a strange spiral where criminality is increasingly forgiven even in cases it shouldn’t be due to the ineptitude of government. I’ve talked to many, many people who are of the view that society is no longer just, not because of undue prosecution, but because of no prosecution. I’ll admit, I was swayed by the arguments of certain protests a couple years ago, but it seems like a deeper law/order reaction is brewing after the downstream effects of the policies and attitudes have come into play.
  - rwmj 5y ago
    There's no mystery about it, the UK government has aggressively cut funding to the police and criminal justice system. https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/criminal-justice-system_0.pdf https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/file...
  - TomSwirly 5y ago
    > is it that society is increasingly failing to prosecute crime? Depends on the society. The US has an awful lot of people in jail. However, society in general is fairly universally failing to prosecute certain classes of crime - ones where rich people steal from poor people. It is the unevenness of prosecution that enrages people. A rich kid can rape an unconscious woman and leave her in a dumpster, and get no jail time, whereas someone can go to jail for five years for voting as a felon, not deliberately simply because she didn't know that the US disenfranchises criminals for life in many states.

awb 5y ago

The article implies that the scam never made any money which is perhaps just as shocking as the con itself. I ran a real web agency and clients almost never asked for references and were happy to pay up to 50% of a 5-figure project total upfront to get started, even from remote or overseas clients that I never met in person who found me through SEO. Crazy that they couldn’t land even 1 contract with whatever stolen portfolio examples they desired.

desireco42 5y ago
It is really weird that they didn't start making a ton of money from all the energy and work people did. This guy must be some kind of sociopath to do this to people, it was easy to make this work even if it started as a scam.
itronitron 5y ago
Very weird to hire people to do work, and especially convincing them to leave their current job, when you don't have any work that needs to be done. Having said that, a variant of this type of behavior is not uncommon in large organizations where 'go-getters' can self-manifest by creating chatter and finding underlings. But in that case there is already a revenue flow to support time and attention.
- hammock 5y ago
  >Very weird to hire people to do work, and especially convincing them to leave their current job, when you don't have any work that needs to be done. Spec work and pitch work are very much a thing. As counterintuitive or infuriating as it may seem, having no paying clients doesn't mean there is no work to be done, in the agency world.
smcl 5y ago
I read this story when I woke up earlier today so I was a little bleary-eyed and may have missed something, but I don't know how accurate that is. We know people didn't get paid but idk if we can be certain the company didn't get any money whatsoever.

sireat 5y ago

What I do not understand how could an enterprise be so incompetent not to attract any clients in 6 months? You have 20-30 very motivated sales people working on landing clients for 6 months, there have to be some sales. Or did this not-quite an agency actually land some real clients and was unable to deliver?

itronitron 5y ago
I doubt the agency landed any real clients as the companies Ali claimed to have access to through personal connections and past experience likely stick with vetted design agencies and probably have fairly extensive contract procedures. If Ali had focused on low to mid-tier clients they may have been able to land some contracts, my two cents.
- zauguin 5y ago
  I would expect that the sales people did focus on mid-tier clients. After all, if they would have approached high-tier clients Ali supposedly had connections with I would expect the responses to show that this isn't real.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    Salespeople work hard to generate leads for Ali and his imaginary cofounder. Ali doesn't follow up. Or maybe he does follow up on one or two that sound like they'll be fun, but the cynical mid-tier firm marketing execs see right though him or his pitch is just a bit too average. I assume the sales team operated like a third party leadgen operation: salespeople spam the market, forward on the handful of responses and have no further involvement in the sales process. If they're getting good performance metrics and being told the company execs are on the cusp of closing big deals based on their work there's not much reason to question them, especially if they're from a different continent and culture but they've been promised a visa and a Western salary once they've passed their first six months.
webmaven 5y ago
> What I do not understand how could an enterprise be so incompetent not to attract any clients in 6 months? Most likely in my opinion: they priced themselves out of the market by raising the rates quoted to potential clients in an attempt to cover the ballooning overhead. It wouldn't do to actually land contracts and still go out of business, now would it? Another possibility: They responded to RFPs with proposals that drastically expanded the scope of what was requested (same motivation as above). There are ways to push clients a bit out of their comfort zone and still get their business, but if what was asked for is a new logo and you respond with a proposal for a global corporate identity system and advertising campaign, you might not get very far.

AussieWog93 5y ago

A fair few people acting as if this is a new thing, but I'm not so sure. I had a few old coworkers talk about crazy shit like this that happened in the 90s/00s.

ilikeitdark 5y ago

A similar thing actually happened to me, by a friend of a friend (although we lived in different countries). He was making an adult film that was supposed to be for a big platform. Hired everyone (including some big names), rented condos, film equipment, paid for flights (convinced a producer to front the money for some of it). At the end of the week long shoot he tried disappearing without paying for anything or anyone. And there was no platform involved, it was all made up. And my life was threatened by a few of the people he had "hired" because they thought I knew the guy (although I really didn't and he ripped me off too). This guy Ali sounds like the same kinda psychopath.

chrisma0 5y ago

That first instagram photo of Ali has almost a surreal nature to it. Is it just me or did they somehow photoshop his features to be smaller and his face bigger?!

can16358p 5y ago
It's quite easy and as literally everything about this guy is a lie, I'd be surprised if any images of him represent anything real.

tkgally 5y ago

The audio version of this story is being broadcast right now (as I type this) on the BBC World Service. The recording should be available soon at [1]. The interviews with many of the people involved help to bring the story to life. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fvhsf/episodes/player https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00fvhsf/episodes/player

Ansil849 5y ago

I don't really understand what the scam was here. I expected this to be the standard kind of fake job scam, where you're asked to front money for the purchasing of equipment or legal bills, or where you're asked to send copies of your identification documents and all that...but what was the point here? None of the people hired were asked to pay money upfront, and were told they would start getting paid after the six months probation period (at which, presumably the guy in charge expected to have some clients). The only thing shady I see being done here is all of the fake co-founders and staff...which I honestly don't understand the reason for, but where actually is the scam?

yitchelle 5y ago
I guess the scam is on the folks that took on the jobs and lost money over it. Some of the folks in the story upended their lives over this scam.
- Ansil849 5y ago
  > I guess the scam is on the folks that took on the jobs and lost money over it. Some of the folks in the story upended their lives over this scam. But that's what I don't understand, what was the scam? People upended their jobs, sometimes even quiting salaried positions, to sign a contract to work on commission for a 6 month probation period. And because their sales were zero, the commission was zero. That's not a scam. A scam is something which is a deception or a lie, not terms to which you openly agree to. If you quit your job and go to work for a new company on commission, and then don't make any sales, you were not scammed. You made a poor job decision. The only thing I can see approach a scam was all of the nonexistent people on the staff page, and I don't really see the point of that or how it contributed to anything. To me this looks like a lot of people making poor job decisions, some out of desperation and some out of greed, but I don't see the scam or fraud element.
  - s8s8discourse 5y ago
    The scam is misrepresentation. There's an almost intangible line between "fake it til you make it" and "fraud". There's pushing that line, and there's jumping over it. - Misrepresented previous client list - Misrepresented project experience - Misrepresented personal brand (fake LinkedIn reviews) - Misrepresented other brands (faking reviews from fake Nike employees) - Misrepresented company status (faked employees) - Misrepresented company director status (fake GQ adverts, fake instagram followers) The scam is that an individual carefully constructed a fake reality to sell a "job" to a bunch of individuals under false pretences. This wasn't an honest mistake. It was an orchestrated and premeditated punt at using a group of individuals labour at zero cost to land a big client for significant financial reward for the perpetrator. > A scam is something which is a deception or a lie, not terms to which you openly agree to. "Come join our new agency. We have no client list, or leads, and no pedigree with which to land a big client, and I will be unable to pay you until we land our first client" vs "I am a highly successful creative director with a swathe of personal and professional connections to high value businesses. I am offering a commission only role but given <all of the misrepresentation> we will definitely land 7 figure contracts! You don't have to take my word for it, look at all the <carefully crafted misrepresentation>" Shameful to be insinuating this is an honest business practice, IMO

lifeplusplus 5y ago

what was the scam beside founder being not what he said he was?