10 ms·

Feynman’s advice to W&M student resonates 45 years later (2020)

203 points by andrewl 5y ago

xhkkffbf 5y ago
Sort of surprised to read this. I thought the verdict was pretty clear. Feynman was canceled. W&M putting out a press release like this is inviting Feynman to give a talk or a commencement address.
- jcrash 5y ago
  ? Richard Feynman died in 1988.
  - b215826 5y ago
    The commenter is probably referring to the various attempts [1] (some successful) to tarnish Feynman's image since his death. I agree that the comment is completely irrelevant to this particular discussion though. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=feynman+sexist https://www.google.com/search?q=feynman+sexist
sitkack 5y ago
> She said she never had any trouble initiating contact with authority figures when she had some business to discuss. “We’re all just people,” she says.
- phkahler 5y ago
  I've found the same. If you contact an authority with serious questions about the subject they are an authority on, they will generally respond in a positive way. Keep in mind, this is very different than kids asking a math PhD for help with algebra homework - algebra is not their specialty and there is no reason to contact them specifically about such things.
  - sitkack 5y ago
    I have also had similar experience cold-emailing domain authorities. I spent days writing 10s of words, double checking my facts, doing my homework and have gotten a response everytime. They are excited that someone is reading their work, thinking about it and then having the gumption to contact them. I think it is actually quite rare.
    - phkahler 5y ago
      I contacted a guy about a paper he'd written on image de-blurring. Just some high level questions because the paper was behind a paywall. He asked for my snail-mail address and sent a full color printout of the paper in a large envelope! I still have it.
- sydthrowaway 5y ago
  Hmm.. crank?
- gyc 5y ago
  A professor of mine once told me about when he was in school he studied a book written by a famous expert in the field and found a bunch of errors. So he wrote back to the author with the error and, after some back and forth correspondence, the author offered him a job after graduation. So that was how he first got his foot in the door in the field.
jancsika 5y ago
> Your instructor was right not to give you any points, for your answer was wrong, as he demonstrated using Gauss’ law. You should, in science, believe logic and arguments, carefully drawn, and not authorities. You also read the book correctly and understood it. I made a mistake, so the book is wrong. I probably was thinking of a grounded conducting sphere, or else of the fact that moving the charges around in different places inside does not affect things on the outside. I am not sure how I did it, but I goofed. And you goofed, too, for believing me. I've heard of "non-apologies," which are sneaky ways of sounding like one is taking responsibility and apologizing without actually apologizing or taking responsibility. But this is the opposite-- Fenyman takes zero responsibility for having led the student astray, and in fact chastises the reader for appealing to his own authority. At the same time, he gives evidence for why he should not be trusted as an authority-- he goofed and doesn't even know why! It's like a variation of an old one-liner comedy insult, something like: "I got news for you, we could both do better!" Anyhow, I like it.
- b215826 5y ago
  > he gives evidence for why he should not be trusted as an authority-- he goofed and doesn't even know why! Your comment is very hilarious since Gauss's law is high-school physics. So Feynman would have clearly known how he goofed up.
  - andrewl 5y ago
    The article quotes Feynman’s letter as saying “I am not sure how I did it, but I goofed.” What he meant is that he doesn’t know how he made such a simple error, not that he doesn’t know what the error was. Like if I wrote in an article or book chapter that 2 + 3 = 7. I’d know what the error was when it was pointed out to me. But I wouldn’t be able to imagine how in the world I made such an elementary goof.
    - b215826 5y ago
      > Like if I wrote in an article or book chapter that 2 + 3 = 7. I’d know what the error was when it was pointed out to me. But I wouldn’t be able to imagine how in the world I made such an elementary goof. And why would that make you less of an authority? I was replying to a comment that suggested that Feynman ought to be not trusted as an authority because he goofed. Please try to follow the discussion in the thread.
erulabs 5y ago
It saddens me to think that a polite exchange in which all parties are incorrect, come to a better conclusion, and leave amicably is so rare as to be remembered across a span of time greater than my entire lifetime. Good conversations are so rare. It has been a long time, for me.
- mewse-hn 5y ago
  This exchange would be non-notable if it weren't for Feynman's stature and that he was basically called out by a musician. His familiarity with academia shines through by agreeing the answer deserves no marks, and his candor by stating that both of them were wrong.
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jka 5y ago
  What are your favourite conversations about? (I enjoy abstract conversations about optimistic directions for technology -- although it often involves invoking and talking about -- joking about, if possible -- all of the possible dystopias to avoid along the way. we seem to be dipping our toes into almost all of the latter nowadays, but I tend to believe that doing that also helps expose the nature of the problems more clearly for a wider audience. I also really enjoy bicycle adventures despite rarely being that well prepared for them. recently I spent an hour on a hill "modifying" a front rim to accept a Schraeder valve rather than a Presta valve after suffering a flat and bringing the wrong kind of spare innertube with me; typical)
  - nefitty 5y ago
    You sound awesome! I have my 2012 Specialized Allez flipped over in the living room. My wife will mention it any day now lol I had to replace a gear shifting cable, which was a nightmare. When I went to fill my tires, I realized the "auto" Serfas bike pump has some sort of weird logic where the Presta pump won't work if there's no pressure in the tire at all. Thankfully the little valve-stem-cap-cut-in-half trick actually worked! Speaking of nightmares, my current pet dystopia is solar flare collapse. I'm generally highly, highly optimistic about what science and technology can accomplish, but this is the one thing that makes me doubt the future. It's led me to seriously consider taking on an organized survivalist/prepatory hobby, not only for the slight chance of societal collapse, but it sounds fun to systematize that sort of primitive-style safety net.
gnicholas 5y ago
Related question: I am reading a book by an author whom I know socially. The book is very good, but I have noticed a few minor typos. I also noticed that one example is explained backwards — that is, it mixes up the causes and effects for two phenomena. I have not independently researched the phenomena, but based on the earlier description (which is logical and I believe to be correct), the conclusion of a section is clearly mistaken. Is it appropriate or helpful to point out any of these issues? The book came out a couple years ago, and I imagine other people who know the author may have pointed them out already. I don't want to make him feel bad (no one likes the bearer of bad news), but if it were me I would want to be told so that future print runs and digital editions could be corrected. (The book is popular and will likely remain relevant for years or even decades.) Perhaps I should shoot him an email from an anonymous email address?
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  >Is it appropriate or helpful to point out any of these issues? Only you can answer that question, as none of us here know them! Some people really appreciate it when you point out their mistakes (privately), others will hold a grudge against you for life.
- kmill 5y ago
  They'd probably be delighted to hear that you're reading the book (and it wouldn't hurt to mention that you think it's good!) You could mention that, and ask about the causality problem, why it seems backwards compared to the earlier description, and how you've not researched it yourself and would appreciate clarification. You can also mention that you've noticed some minor typos and ask whether they'd appreciate them for a future printing. I think it's safe to say authors would rather have mistakes not continue to be reprinted.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dr_zoidberg 5y ago
    Second this. A few years back I wrote a chapter for a book and then the editor screwed up. With one of the other authors, we took on editing and fixing things around. As I had seen so many versions of it, my chapter was the one on which I could do the less editing around -- I was absolutely tired of it. Lo a behold, the book gets published, I get a physical copy on my hands, and I start seeing typos and small mistakes around. Nothing too serious, but things that I would've fixed. I know those mistakes are there. Only a handful of people have pointed them out. Those people have not only read the book, the followed it and questioned it. It's nice to be reached out, even if I already know what's wrong.
stakkur 5y ago
This article reminds me of a Carl Sagan quote: "Arguments from authority carry little weight – authorities have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts."
- draw_down 5y ago
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  In practice both authorities and experts make mistakes. Reference:the above article
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
  - pjscott 5y ago
    Yes, that's the implication of Sagan's quote! Nobody can be trusted to always be right; there are only people with different probabilities of being right on various subjects. Their words are Bayesian evidence of finite strength.
8bitsrule 5y ago
Reminds me of the old advice that you can be safe in your car if it's hit by lightning . There are some ifs: https://www.arnoldclark.com/newsroom/239-how-to-stay-safe-in-your-car-during-a-thunder-and-lightning-storm https://www.arnoldclark.com/newsroom/239-how-to-stay-safe-in...
DoreenMichele 5y ago
Take-home test in a survey course for nonmajors. And she referenced a book with a mistake. In my thirties, wanting to test out of college algebra, I bought some math software to do drills and refresh my rusty high school math and the software had errors. It was fine for my purposes because I recognized the mistakes, but I was also homeschooling and I told my kids it probably wasn't a good resource for them because it has too many errors, so it wasn't something they should use for math practice. They didn't know enough math to recognize the errors and would have learned wrong. People make mistakes. This kind of scenario is always a possibility for an outsider with insufficient background knowledge to go "Wait ...that doesn't seem right." and, instead, just goes "But (famous expert) said it, so it must be true."
riddleronroof 5y ago
Thanks is a great story, but not about Feynman or Feminism. It’s about class. The reason she felt comfortable was because she was from the ‘upper’ class that belonged. And could question anyone, even Noble Laureates.
- harry8 5y ago
  The story is about argument and evidence being compelling and authority not so at all. > she felt comfortable... ...could question anyone, even Noble Laureates. The idea that this is explained entirely by class does a disservice to people from more humble backgrounds who are capable of being confident. For example Feynmann himself has a large number of anecdotes about suddenly not caring who he was arguing with because thinking about the problem took over. Los Alamos with all the greatests physcists after Newton present, for example. Putting class at the centre of everything really isn't vastly better than pretending it has no relevance and does not exist. The thing that should interest us more is where are the modest background geniuses coming from now? Is class distinction getting more important and becoming a stronger barrier now than in the 30s and 40s or from this story the 70s. US tuition fees and student debt would suggest it is worth looking at.
  - haroldp 5y ago
    And Feynman made some wonderful attacks on social status. I recall in particular the lesson on "epaulets" from his father. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkv0KCR3Yiw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkv0KCR3Yiw He was the child of poor Jewish immigrants.
yalogin 5y ago
Not accepting authority is not the lesson I would take from this. Good scientists would accept their mistake and correct themselves is what I see as the lesson there. There is no way for a student who is still learning physics to know or trust her instincts. She was right in that instance but majority of the times she would be wrong.
- rg111 5y ago
  Why there has to be just one lesson from an incident?
  - samplatt 5y ago
    Because in lessonable stories it aids understanding to have only one lesson to assist in reducing confusion. But it's hardly a hard-rule and is often broken.
- rp3 5y ago
CamperBob2 5y ago
I don't understand. Of course an electric charge inside an ideal, closed conductor cannot produce or affect a field outside the conductor, just as Feynman originally stated (and just as my hardbound 1989 printing of Feynman/Leighton/Sands still says, on page 5-9.) Otherwise, as he goes on to point out, electrostatic shielding wouldn't be possible. What am I missing? "I must have assumed it was grounded" doesn't make much sense either, because a charge inside such a conductor has no return path to ground. Either a current will flow outside the enclosed conductor -- in which case where's the return path? -- or it won't.
- alecst 5y ago
  If you put a charge inside a spherical ungrounded conductor, charges will move to the inner surface of the conductor to make the electric field inside it zero. The excess charges go to the outer surface of the conductor, uniformly.
  - CamperBob2 5y ago
    What happens differently when the conductor is grounded, though? From the point of view of a charge inside the conductor, grounding the outside just increases the available exterior surface area. The outer surface is now the whole planet, conceptually speaking. If field lines existed before, they still do, they're just spread out more. A thought exercise: consider a van de Graaff generator. In operation, it moves charge from the 'ground' at the base of the belt to the top sphere. It can do this because there's a hole in the top sphere for the belt to pass through. If I enclose the entire generator in an even larger metal sphere, seamless and unbroken, and run it from batteries, can I draw sparks from that sphere? My intuition says 'no,' so it's interesting if that's not the case.
    - bkcooper 5y ago
      When the conductor is grounded, the charge on the conductor is no longer constant. It can change until the total enclosed charge in any sphere surrounding the conductor is zero.
    - 5y ago
Maursault 5y ago
Ah, William & Mary, the Harvard of the South. Feynman rightly should have said, "transfer to Yale. It's a lot easier to graduate and far less pretentious."

203 points by andrewl 5y ago

Sort of surprised to read this. I thought the verdict was pretty clear. Feynman was canceled. W&M putting out a press release like this is inviting Feynman to give a talk or a commencement address.

jcrash 5y ago
? Richard Feynman died in 1988.
- b215826 5y ago
  The commenter is probably referring to the various attempts [1] (some successful) to tarnish Feynman's image since his death. I agree that the comment is completely irrelevant to this particular discussion though. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=feynman+sexist https://www.google.com/search?q=feynman+sexist

sitkack 5y ago

> She said she never had any trouble initiating contact with authority figures when she had some business to discuss. “We’re all just people,” she says.

phkahler 5y ago
I've found the same. If you contact an authority with serious questions about the subject they are an authority on, they will generally respond in a positive way. Keep in mind, this is very different than kids asking a math PhD for help with algebra homework - algebra is not their specialty and there is no reason to contact them specifically about such things.
- sitkack 5y ago
  I have also had similar experience cold-emailing domain authorities. I spent days writing 10s of words, double checking my facts, doing my homework and have gotten a response everytime. They are excited that someone is reading their work, thinking about it and then having the gumption to contact them. I think it is actually quite rare.
  - phkahler 5y ago
    I contacted a guy about a paper he'd written on image de-blurring. Just some high level questions because the paper was behind a paywall. He asked for my snail-mail address and sent a full color printout of the paper in a large envelope! I still have it.
sydthrowaway 5y ago
Hmm.. crank?
gyc 5y ago
A professor of mine once told me about when he was in school he studied a book written by a famous expert in the field and found a bunch of errors. So he wrote back to the author with the error and, after some back and forth correspondence, the author offered him a job after graduation. So that was how he first got his foot in the door in the field.

jancsika 5y ago

> Your instructor was right not to give you any points, for your answer was wrong, as he demonstrated using Gauss’ law. You should, in science, believe logic and arguments, carefully drawn, and not authorities. You also read the book correctly and understood it. I made a mistake, so the book is wrong. I probably was thinking of a grounded conducting sphere, or else of the fact that moving the charges around in different places inside does not affect things on the outside. I am not sure how I did it, but I goofed. And you goofed, too, for believing me. I've heard of "non-apologies," which are sneaky ways of sounding like one is taking responsibility and apologizing without actually apologizing or taking responsibility. But this is the opposite-- Fenyman takes zero responsibility for having led the student astray, and in fact chastises the reader for appealing to his own authority. At the same time, he gives evidence for why he should not be trusted as an authority-- he goofed and doesn't even know why! It's like a variation of an old one-liner comedy insult, something like: "I got news for you, we could both do better!" Anyhow, I like it.

b215826 5y ago
> he gives evidence for why he should not be trusted as an authority-- he goofed and doesn't even know why! Your comment is very hilarious since Gauss's law is high-school physics. So Feynman would have clearly known how he goofed up.
- andrewl 5y ago
  The article quotes Feynman’s letter as saying “I am not sure how I did it, but I goofed.” What he meant is that he doesn’t know how he made such a simple error, not that he doesn’t know what the error was. Like if I wrote in an article or book chapter that 2 + 3 = 7. I’d know what the error was when it was pointed out to me. But I wouldn’t be able to imagine how in the world I made such an elementary goof.
  - b215826 5y ago
    > Like if I wrote in an article or book chapter that 2 + 3 = 7. I’d know what the error was when it was pointed out to me. But I wouldn’t be able to imagine how in the world I made such an elementary goof. And why would that make you less of an authority? I was replying to a comment that suggested that Feynman ought to be not trusted as an authority because he goofed. Please try to follow the discussion in the thread.

erulabs 5y ago

It saddens me to think that a polite exchange in which all parties are incorrect, come to a better conclusion, and leave amicably is so rare as to be remembered across a span of time greater than my entire lifetime. Good conversations are so rare. It has been a long time, for me.

mewse-hn 5y ago
This exchange would be non-notable if it weren't for Feynman's stature and that he was basically called out by a musician. His familiarity with academia shines through by agreeing the answer deserves no marks, and his candor by stating that both of them were wrong.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jka 5y ago
What are your favourite conversations about? (I enjoy abstract conversations about optimistic directions for technology -- although it often involves invoking and talking about -- joking about, if possible -- all of the possible dystopias to avoid along the way. we seem to be dipping our toes into almost all of the latter nowadays, but I tend to believe that doing that also helps expose the nature of the problems more clearly for a wider audience. I also really enjoy bicycle adventures despite rarely being that well prepared for them. recently I spent an hour on a hill "modifying" a front rim to accept a Schraeder valve rather than a Presta valve after suffering a flat and bringing the wrong kind of spare innertube with me; typical)
- nefitty 5y ago
  You sound awesome! I have my 2012 Specialized Allez flipped over in the living room. My wife will mention it any day now lol I had to replace a gear shifting cable, which was a nightmare. When I went to fill my tires, I realized the "auto" Serfas bike pump has some sort of weird logic where the Presta pump won't work if there's no pressure in the tire at all. Thankfully the little valve-stem-cap-cut-in-half trick actually worked! Speaking of nightmares, my current pet dystopia is solar flare collapse. I'm generally highly, highly optimistic about what science and technology can accomplish, but this is the one thing that makes me doubt the future. It's led me to seriously consider taking on an organized survivalist/prepatory hobby, not only for the slight chance of societal collapse, but it sounds fun to systematize that sort of primitive-style safety net.

gnicholas 5y ago

Related question: I am reading a book by an author whom I know socially. The book is very good, but I have noticed a few minor typos. I also noticed that one example is explained backwards — that is, it mixes up the causes and effects for two phenomena. I have not independently researched the phenomena, but based on the earlier description (which is logical and I believe to be correct), the conclusion of a section is clearly mistaken. Is it appropriate or helpful to point out any of these issues? The book came out a couple years ago, and I imagine other people who know the author may have pointed them out already. I don't want to make him feel bad (no one likes the bearer of bad news), but if it were me I would want to be told so that future print runs and digital editions could be corrected. (The book is popular and will likely remain relevant for years or even decades.) Perhaps I should shoot him an email from an anonymous email address?

AussieWog93 5y ago
>Is it appropriate or helpful to point out any of these issues? Only you can answer that question, as none of us here know them! Some people really appreciate it when you point out their mistakes (privately), others will hold a grudge against you for life.
kmill 5y ago
They'd probably be delighted to hear that you're reading the book (and it wouldn't hurt to mention that you think it's good!) You could mention that, and ask about the causality problem, why it seems backwards compared to the earlier description, and how you've not researched it yourself and would appreciate clarification. You can also mention that you've noticed some minor typos and ask whether they'd appreciate them for a future printing. I think it's safe to say authors would rather have mistakes not continue to be reprinted.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dr_zoidberg 5y ago
  Second this. A few years back I wrote a chapter for a book and then the editor screwed up. With one of the other authors, we took on editing and fixing things around. As I had seen so many versions of it, my chapter was the one on which I could do the less editing around -- I was absolutely tired of it. Lo a behold, the book gets published, I get a physical copy on my hands, and I start seeing typos and small mistakes around. Nothing too serious, but things that I would've fixed. I know those mistakes are there. Only a handful of people have pointed them out. Those people have not only read the book, the followed it and questioned it. It's nice to be reached out, even if I already know what's wrong.

stakkur 5y ago

This article reminds me of a Carl Sagan quote: "Arguments from authority carry little weight – authorities have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts."

draw_down 5y ago
edmcnulty101 5y ago
In practice both authorities and experts make mistakes. Reference:the above article
- alisonkisk 5y ago
- pjscott 5y ago
  Yes, that's the implication of Sagan's quote! Nobody can be trusted to always be right; there are only people with different probabilities of being right on various subjects. Their words are Bayesian evidence of finite strength.

8bitsrule 5y ago

Reminds me of the old advice that you can be safe in your car if it's hit by lightning . There are some ifs: https://www.arnoldclark.com/newsroom/239-how-to-stay-safe-in-your-car-during-a-thunder-and-lightning-storm https://www.arnoldclark.com/newsroom/239-how-to-stay-safe-in...

DoreenMichele 5y ago

Take-home test in a survey course for nonmajors. And she referenced a book with a mistake. In my thirties, wanting to test out of college algebra, I bought some math software to do drills and refresh my rusty high school math and the software had errors. It was fine for my purposes because I recognized the mistakes, but I was also homeschooling and I told my kids it probably wasn't a good resource for them because it has too many errors, so it wasn't something they should use for math practice. They didn't know enough math to recognize the errors and would have learned wrong. People make mistakes. This kind of scenario is always a possibility for an outsider with insufficient background knowledge to go "Wait ...that doesn't seem right." and, instead, just goes "But (famous expert) said it, so it must be true."

riddleronroof 5y ago

Thanks is a great story, but not about Feynman or Feminism. It’s about class. The reason she felt comfortable was because she was from the ‘upper’ class that belonged. And could question anyone, even Noble Laureates.

harry8 5y ago
The story is about argument and evidence being compelling and authority not so at all. > she felt comfortable... ...could question anyone, even Noble Laureates. The idea that this is explained entirely by class does a disservice to people from more humble backgrounds who are capable of being confident. For example Feynmann himself has a large number of anecdotes about suddenly not caring who he was arguing with because thinking about the problem took over. Los Alamos with all the greatests physcists after Newton present, for example. Putting class at the centre of everything really isn't vastly better than pretending it has no relevance and does not exist. The thing that should interest us more is where are the modest background geniuses coming from now? Is class distinction getting more important and becoming a stronger barrier now than in the 30s and 40s or from this story the 70s. US tuition fees and student debt would suggest it is worth looking at.
- haroldp 5y ago
  And Feynman made some wonderful attacks on social status. I recall in particular the lesson on "epaulets" from his father. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkv0KCR3Yiw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkv0KCR3Yiw He was the child of poor Jewish immigrants.

yalogin 5y ago

Not accepting authority is not the lesson I would take from this. Good scientists would accept their mistake and correct themselves is what I see as the lesson there. There is no way for a student who is still learning physics to know or trust her instincts. She was right in that instance but majority of the times she would be wrong.

rg111 5y ago
Why there has to be just one lesson from an incident?
- samplatt 5y ago
  Because in lessonable stories it aids understanding to have only one lesson to assist in reducing confusion. But it's hardly a hard-rule and is often broken.
rp3 5y ago

CamperBob2 5y ago

I don't understand. Of course an electric charge inside an ideal, closed conductor cannot produce or affect a field outside the conductor, just as Feynman originally stated (and just as my hardbound 1989 printing of Feynman/Leighton/Sands still says, on page 5-9.) Otherwise, as he goes on to point out, electrostatic shielding wouldn't be possible. What am I missing? "I must have assumed it was grounded" doesn't make much sense either, because a charge inside such a conductor has no return path to ground. Either a current will flow outside the enclosed conductor -- in which case where's the return path? -- or it won't.

alecst 5y ago
If you put a charge inside a spherical ungrounded conductor, charges will move to the inner surface of the conductor to make the electric field inside it zero. The excess charges go to the outer surface of the conductor, uniformly.
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  What happens differently when the conductor is grounded, though? From the point of view of a charge inside the conductor, grounding the outside just increases the available exterior surface area. The outer surface is now the whole planet, conceptually speaking. If field lines existed before, they still do, they're just spread out more. A thought exercise: consider a van de Graaff generator. In operation, it moves charge from the 'ground' at the base of the belt to the top sphere. It can do this because there's a hole in the top sphere for the belt to pass through. If I enclose the entire generator in an even larger metal sphere, seamless and unbroken, and run it from batteries, can I draw sparks from that sphere? My intuition says 'no,' so it's interesting if that's not the case.
  - bkcooper 5y ago
    When the conductor is grounded, the charge on the conductor is no longer constant. It can change until the total enclosed charge in any sphere surrounding the conductor is zero.
  - 5y ago

Maursault 5y ago

Ah, William & Mary, the Harvard of the South. Feynman rightly should have said, "transfer to Yale. It's a lot easier to graduate and far less pretentious."