3 ms·

> Every single one of them (all professionals, like I said) were adamant that they would leave any position that managed them no better than a burger-flipper.

> Every single one of them (all professionals, like I said) were adamant that they would leave any position that managed them no better than a burger-flipper. Such entitled garbage. Restaurants manage people much more tightly, and often with very abusive practices and wage theft added in. Stand-up is nothing compared to having an underpaid alcoholic yell at you because you leaned against the wall 2/3 of the way through your second double shift in a row.

pdimitar 5y ago
So the programmers are on the level of restaurant workers? Not sure what your argument is.
- schwartzworld 5y ago
  Responding the the person claiming that stand-ups === being "managed no better than a burger flipper".
hkt 5y ago
Wage theft is endemic in programming. Think of all those colleagues who have worked late on a deadline because somebody pressured them into it. They're reducing their own effective hourly rate and contributing to a long hours culture because of the daily ritual of humiliation at standup. It is very different to the restaurant analogy but wage theft and humiliation are still baked in for many of us.
- lowercased 5y ago
  > but wage theft and humiliation are still baked in for many of us It's harder to get much sympathy from others as well if/when you're paid much higher than many other averages. Using the term 'wage theft' - normally used in discussions around minimum wage job abuses - for someone who's making $80/hr, (and may get some stock/bonus) doesn't get the same sort of reaction. The term doesn't even feel quite right, but that may be just because I've heard it so often relating to the lower end. I'd imagine it's not even about money so much for many folks as much as it is about time.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    But money is time. If my employer feels strongly enough about getting something finished tonight, they’ll have to pay for it (e.g. paid overtime). This naturally limits how much overtime your company would like you to do, and puts some backpressure one those managers burning through budget like there is no tomorrow.
- schwartzworld 5y ago
  When you accept a salaried position, you understand that there are going to be weeks your "effective hourly" fluctuates. Some weeks I have lots of work. Some I don't. I have sympathy but that's not wage theft. Actual wage theft is very common in food service. As in, you earn the money and someone else takes it.
  - maxwell 5y ago
    I've worked unpaid overtime at every tech job I've had. On the flip side, I never had any wage issues in 5 years in food service, other than that the pay isn't livable.
  - davemp 5y ago
    Most software positions have a never ending backlog of work that can easily fill 40hrs of any week. Meaning a salary set at 40hrs/wk is pure downside to the work as your actual job expectations have a floor of 40hr weeks but sometimes 50-60hr+ weeks during crunch times. It's essentially legalized wage theft. Thankfully I get paid hourly, but still when I do overtime it's only paid at a x1 multiplier because the dinosaurs in office deemed 'computer workers' [1] are exempt from fair labor regulations. Likely, those in power guessed that they could safely chip away at more worker's rights because most of the voting base won't feel solidarity for highly paid salary positions and 'computer workers'. [1]: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17e-overtime-computer https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17e-overtime-co...
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      Counterpoint, almost every tech worker I know works like 30 hours a week in all honesty.
dunefox 5y ago
So because some professions have it worse developers need to have it worse as well? What a garbage point.
- schwartzworld 5y ago
  Huh? I was responding to someone saying that stand-ups === being managed "no better than a burger flipper". I don't agree with that point, especially since food service has the most toxic management of any industry.
  - maxwell 5y ago
    What restaurant(s) have you worked for or are you citing?
    - sulam 5y ago
      Seriously? Do you think working at a McJob is unicorns and rainbows? Getting paid minimum wage, being on your feet all day, entitled customers constantly up your ass, a management team that literally thinks of you as a fully replaceable work unit (and you are !!)… Yes I’ve done it. It’s not the worst job I’ve had but my current job affords me the opportunity to type this from a vacation house on the beach in Hawaii. When I told the people making my lunch last week that I was headed to Hawaii they said they always wanted to go there and hoped to do it in a couple years, like it was a once in a lifetime trip for them. And it probably is. People need to actually pay more attention to the world around them and have some conversations to realize how well we’ve got it.
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        I worked a McJob (actually the McJob) from 16-20, and it was probably my main motivation in getting into the CS department at UW (it helped that I was interested in computers and seemed to have a talent for the field). Sometimes I wonder if any of my colleagues had to go through that, but many did. Surely not all of us programmers came from stable upper middle class or better backgrounds. I did have some really good managers though, people I couldn’t believe weren’t doing better things (and some real bad ones, too, of course).
picsao 5y ago
moron4hire 5y ago
No, I've literally had software jobs like that. I've actually had restaurant jobs that were better than some of my worst software jobs.

pdimitar 5y ago

So the programmers are on the level of restaurant workers? Not sure what your argument is.

schwartzworld 5y ago
Responding the the person claiming that stand-ups === being "managed no better than a burger flipper".

hkt 5y ago

Wage theft is endemic in programming. Think of all those colleagues who have worked late on a deadline because somebody pressured them into it. They're reducing their own effective hourly rate and contributing to a long hours culture because of the daily ritual of humiliation at standup. It is very different to the restaurant analogy but wage theft and humiliation are still baked in for many of us.

lowercased 5y ago
> but wage theft and humiliation are still baked in for many of us It's harder to get much sympathy from others as well if/when you're paid much higher than many other averages. Using the term 'wage theft' - normally used in discussions around minimum wage job abuses - for someone who's making $80/hr, (and may get some stock/bonus) doesn't get the same sort of reaction. The term doesn't even feel quite right, but that may be just because I've heard it so often relating to the lower end. I'd imagine it's not even about money so much for many folks as much as it is about time.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  But money is time. If my employer feels strongly enough about getting something finished tonight, they’ll have to pay for it (e.g. paid overtime). This naturally limits how much overtime your company would like you to do, and puts some backpressure one those managers burning through budget like there is no tomorrow.
schwartzworld 5y ago
When you accept a salaried position, you understand that there are going to be weeks your "effective hourly" fluctuates. Some weeks I have lots of work. Some I don't. I have sympathy but that's not wage theft. Actual wage theft is very common in food service. As in, you earn the money and someone else takes it.
- maxwell 5y ago
  I've worked unpaid overtime at every tech job I've had. On the flip side, I never had any wage issues in 5 years in food service, other than that the pay isn't livable.
- davemp 5y ago
  Most software positions have a never ending backlog of work that can easily fill 40hrs of any week. Meaning a salary set at 40hrs/wk is pure downside to the work as your actual job expectations have a floor of 40hr weeks but sometimes 50-60hr+ weeks during crunch times. It's essentially legalized wage theft. Thankfully I get paid hourly, but still when I do overtime it's only paid at a x1 multiplier because the dinosaurs in office deemed 'computer workers' [1] are exempt from fair labor regulations. Likely, those in power guessed that they could safely chip away at more worker's rights because most of the voting base won't feel solidarity for highly paid salary positions and 'computer workers'. [1]: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17e-overtime-computer https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17e-overtime-co...
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    Counterpoint, almost every tech worker I know works like 30 hours a week in all honesty.

dunefox 5y ago

So because some professions have it worse developers need to have it worse as well? What a garbage point.

schwartzworld 5y ago
Huh? I was responding to someone saying that stand-ups === being managed "no better than a burger flipper". I don't agree with that point, especially since food service has the most toxic management of any industry.
- maxwell 5y ago
  What restaurant(s) have you worked for or are you citing?
  - sulam 5y ago
    Seriously? Do you think working at a McJob is unicorns and rainbows? Getting paid minimum wage, being on your feet all day, entitled customers constantly up your ass, a management team that literally thinks of you as a fully replaceable work unit (and you are !!)… Yes I’ve done it. It’s not the worst job I’ve had but my current job affords me the opportunity to type this from a vacation house on the beach in Hawaii. When I told the people making my lunch last week that I was headed to Hawaii they said they always wanted to go there and hoped to do it in a couple years, like it was a once in a lifetime trip for them. And it probably is. People need to actually pay more attention to the world around them and have some conversations to realize how well we’ve got it.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      I worked a McJob (actually the McJob) from 16-20, and it was probably my main motivation in getting into the CS department at UW (it helped that I was interested in computers and seemed to have a talent for the field). Sometimes I wonder if any of my colleagues had to go through that, but many did. Surely not all of us programmers came from stable upper middle class or better backgrounds. I did have some really good managers though, people I couldn’t believe weren’t doing better things (and some real bad ones, too, of course).

picsao 5y ago

moron4hire 5y ago

No, I've literally had software jobs like that. I've actually had restaurant jobs that were better than some of my worst software jobs.