7 ms·

I have depression issues, and have been coding for 10 years now. I don't know if I'm bad at programming, or if it's because I lack a degree, or because I have b

by jokoon 5y ago

I have depression issues, and have been coding for 10 years now. I don't know if I'm bad at programming, or if it's because I lack a degree, or because I have been chronically unemployed and lack experience, or because I'm too selective with the jobs I apply on (I can't bear php or js stuff like angular), or because I live in france or in the wrong city. I may have an atypical profile. Programming has not been very good to me. When I hear "programmers are in high demand", I don't see it applying to me.

namdnay 5y ago
Plumbers are in high demand too, but if you are a plumber with depression, lack of experience, that doesn't want to touch waste pipes or shower units, and live in the sticks, it won't apply to you either
- pietromenna 5y ago
  Ditto!
- jokoon 5y ago
  I know, but it's not like employers are begging people to work for them either. The job market has always been a market that favors employers, not candidates, whatever the domain of work.
  - horsawlarway 5y ago
    No - At some levels and in some locations the employers literally are begging people to come work for them. If you're outside the US, that may be a big factor - but my guess is it's a "you problem" based on what you've said above.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      >At some levels and in some locations the employers literally are begging people to come work for them. Begging is useless without payment to match. >If you're outside the US, that may be a big factor The jobs market outside of the US is nearly orders of magnitude worse, especially in some EU countries. The attitude, leverage and power balance devs in the US enjoy over their employers is far greater than anywhere else.
      - horsawlarway 5y ago
        I mean... we're interviewing and it's about as close to begging as a company can get. - We allow any code submission in lieu of having to do something custom for us (adds quite a bit of time and cost to review) - We pay you for the time interviewing - We have all interviewers send thank you emails afterwards - We offer to give you specific feedback about why we decline to make an offer if we decline - We accept re-applications in 12 months - 6 if you can show meaningful self improvement (ex: bootcamps, school, specific projects, addressing feedback from above) - We have above normal pay/benefits for the area we're in Basically - we spend between 3 and 5 grand on each interviewee just for time spent, not accounting for the initial lead generation time and not accounting for the bonus we pay for recommendations from current staff when hired (12-20k in that case, depending on level).
        ChuckNorris89 5y ago
        I wasn't referring to your company, but to the attitude of the companies in my (EU) area. What your company is doing far exceeds what I saw here and saddens me to a degree that I don't live in the US.
        horsawlarway 5y ago
        Consider applying for remote jobs at US based companies. It's a lot easier now than it was 3 years ago - lots of places in my area that would have previously hired only for local offices are now accepting full time remote from a wide swath of areas. The biggest challenge is usually the tax implications for the company of making a foreign hire - it's hard to be the first remote hire from a new region/country (mainly because it's really expensive up front to get a wrap on the legal side) but relatively easy to be the second. I'd avoid the traditional US hotspots (ex: silicon valley/NYC) and go for places in the south/southeast (Atlanta/Austin/Raleigh/Tampa/Nashville).
    - jokoon 5y ago
      It's easier to blame individuals instead of blaming the system. We will just disagree from here, that's okay. I left a comment to give my point of view, not to get a lesson on life or some patronizing, coaching motivational advice from an internet stranger.
conradfr 5y ago
In what city do you live and what languages are you seeking?
- jokoon 5y ago
  South of france, neither toulouse or Marseille. I'd prefer lower level languages, and as it was said in another comment, they're in lower demand.
ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>When I hear "programmers are in high demand", I don't see it applying to me. This is a very nuanced statement and depends highly on region. When you hear "programmers are in high demand" it actually means "senior/experienced programmers in the company's stack who can quickly solve the issues piling up on their desk, are in high demand". Juniors or devs with near zero experience in that particular stack are getting rejection letters as most companies never consider on how transferrable dev skills are and prefer to wait until the perfect dev shows up, instead of giving someone new to the stack a few weeks to ramp up. At least that's how it is in my current country of Austria, but back in Eastern Europe, the demand for devs is so high due to US off-shoring and Western EU near-shoring, that companies will hire absolutely anyone who can write a for loop and even give them trainings to ramp them up quicker. It's literally impossible to be unemployed there even as an inexperienced slow learning coder. Sure you won't make six figure salaries, but you'll live far more comfortably than 90% of the population. IMO, just like in dating and real-estate, the dev jobs market is very much about "location, location, location".
- woldenron 5y ago
  Which countries you have in mind saying Eastern Europe?
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    Romania, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria, basically most former eastern bloc countries that are also EU members.
himinlomax 5y ago
Depression will distort your vision of reality and make things look worse than they are. It will also make it much harder to take even small risks for greater gains. In all likelihood, you're stuck in your position because you're limiting yourself in some ways. I'm not saying it's easy to get out of, I've been there, it's not.
BenderV 5y ago
I'm guessing if you don't live in a big city (Paris, Lille, ...) & stay on low-level programming (like C), there is really less demands. However, I guess most come down to your network, your confidence and how you represent yourself (having the same "cultural" code as experts). My 2 cents is to treat yourself well first (a healthy mind for a good body), travel more, and work on public stuff / connect with others.
Jiejeing 5y ago
Programmers are in high demand, even in France. That said, there are some major caveats: - Salaries posted on HN are way over the top compared to anything you can get in France - Most of the recruiting is done through SSIIs/ESNs (capgemini, sopra, atos, etc), which is often shit pay, shit management, shit missions (which is not really a boon if you are already depressive) For stability and peace of mind, the most straightforward way is to either enter software dev in a big corp (banks, etc, which have in-house teams), or some "éditeur logiciel" whose product is software. Video game development is a big no unless you knowingly want to be exploited for a while until you burn out. If you have experience, you can increasingly ask for full or close to full remote work if you insist a bit, but most of the time you will only be offered 2 to 3 days of remote work a week, which implies relocating. Although I don’t like saying this, if you do not have experience you could prep up a bit by working publicly on FOSS things that are relevant to your interest, to have technical things that you care about to talk about during an interview, even if it is totally unrelated to the domain you interview in.
Nextgrid 5y ago
To be fair when it comes to France, any job being in high demand generally wouldn't apply there. That country is the capital of unemployment from my experience, and I don't see it getting any better. But yes, lacking a degree is a big part of your problem. Fortunately, it's purely specific to France and you'll get better luck elsewhere in Europe. In my case I made my escape into the UK back when it was still possible.
- jokoon 5y ago
  Thanks, this comment really helps. Seems like it's a lot of wrong place, wrong time. It's true that not having degrees is like being a leper for some reason.
- rdm_blackhole 5y ago
  Salaries in Europe are definitely subpar compared to other locations.OP should try moving to Australia. Lots of jobs and the salaries are very good even for junior/mid.
- Majestic121 5y ago
  That does not match my experience at all, devs are in a very high demand in France, and once you have some dev experience on your resume you start getting a lot of Linkedin spam. As for unemployment rate in general, France is not amazing but it's far from being 'the capital of unemployment' (0.4% above the EU mean rate) : https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/unemployment-rate?continent=europe https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/unemployment-rate?... Did you have anything specific in your experience that could explain why you did not succeed there ?
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > Did you have anything specific in your experience that could explain why you did not succeed there ? I didn't have much besides self-employed/freelance experience back then (which was enough to get me a job in the UK) however even low-skill, non-tech jobs were impossible to get. Maybe it's improved since then and if so I'm glad. I might out of curiosity apply to a couple jobs with my current profile (now having ~7 years of work experience) and see what kind of offer they come back with.
austincheney 5y ago
> When I hear "programmers are in high demand", I don't see it applying to me. Because it probably doesn’t apply to you. It’s not that programmers are in high demand but that hiring programmers is in high demand, which is massively different. It’s the difference between people who solve problems as compared to people who reproduce the same problems to solve.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sage76 5y ago
> I don't see it applying to me. It only applies to a small set of people from top unis or those who have the FAANG brand names on their resumes. Otherwise, I know several people who tried for months to switch jobs and finally gave up due to exhaustion.
- jd115 5y ago
  I have NO university degree and ZERO affiliation with anything remotely FAANG (I'm based in Europe, where relatively few people work for FAANG). There are no globally recognisable names on my CV. I am still the highest paid person I personally know - by a rather high margin, because of my experience as a software engineer. Since I dropped out of university almost 20 years ago, I have been consulting and contracting, focusing almost exclusively on Python, PostgreSQL and, more recently, AWS. This simple combination (I usually refuse to learn anything new - I don't think there have been many noteworthy new technologies in the past couple of decades) has made me millions over the years and I have never been left without work for any significant period of time. Since the pandemic began, I have actually found myself contracting multiple roles concurrently, from my home, each paying significantly above the average developer rate. I've found I can do up to 3 - 4 at a time and still deliver results for each (declining to attend regular meetings helps).
  - sage76 5y ago
    Good for you. I have experience with all 3 of those technologies and it's nearly impossible to even get an interview.
    - blindmute 5y ago
      There's something wrong with your resume or other personal information then. I was in the job market recently, I live in the boonies, and there is nothing impressive on my resume. There were literally not enough waking hours to schedule a call with every recruiter flooding me through LinkedIn. I had at least 5 interviews per week. I don't know what you're doing wrong, but it's something.

by jokoon 5y ago

namdnay 5y ago

Plumbers are in high demand too, but if you are a plumber with depression, lack of experience, that doesn't want to touch waste pipes or shower units, and live in the sticks, it won't apply to you either

pietromenna 5y ago
Ditto!
jokoon 5y ago
I know, but it's not like employers are begging people to work for them either. The job market has always been a market that favors employers, not candidates, whatever the domain of work.
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  No - At some levels and in some locations the employers literally are begging people to come work for them. If you're outside the US, that may be a big factor - but my guess is it's a "you problem" based on what you've said above.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >At some levels and in some locations the employers literally are begging people to come work for them. Begging is useless without payment to match. >If you're outside the US, that may be a big factor The jobs market outside of the US is nearly orders of magnitude worse, especially in some EU countries. The attitude, leverage and power balance devs in the US enjoy over their employers is far greater than anywhere else.
    - horsawlarway 5y ago
      I mean... we're interviewing and it's about as close to begging as a company can get. - We allow any code submission in lieu of having to do something custom for us (adds quite a bit of time and cost to review) - We pay you for the time interviewing - We have all interviewers send thank you emails afterwards - We offer to give you specific feedback about why we decline to make an offer if we decline - We accept re-applications in 12 months - 6 if you can show meaningful self improvement (ex: bootcamps, school, specific projects, addressing feedback from above) - We have above normal pay/benefits for the area we're in Basically - we spend between 3 and 5 grand on each interviewee just for time spent, not accounting for the initial lead generation time and not accounting for the bonus we pay for recommendations from current staff when hired (12-20k in that case, depending on level).
      - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
        I wasn't referring to your company, but to the attitude of the companies in my (EU) area. What your company is doing far exceeds what I saw here and saddens me to a degree that I don't live in the US.
        horsawlarway 5y ago
        Consider applying for remote jobs at US based companies. It's a lot easier now than it was 3 years ago - lots of places in my area that would have previously hired only for local offices are now accepting full time remote from a wide swath of areas. The biggest challenge is usually the tax implications for the company of making a foreign hire - it's hard to be the first remote hire from a new region/country (mainly because it's really expensive up front to get a wrap on the legal side) but relatively easy to be the second. I'd avoid the traditional US hotspots (ex: silicon valley/NYC) and go for places in the south/southeast (Atlanta/Austin/Raleigh/Tampa/Nashville).
  - jokoon 5y ago
    It's easier to blame individuals instead of blaming the system. We will just disagree from here, that's okay. I left a comment to give my point of view, not to get a lesson on life or some patronizing, coaching motivational advice from an internet stranger.

conradfr 5y ago

In what city do you live and what languages are you seeking?

jokoon 5y ago
South of france, neither toulouse or Marseille. I'd prefer lower level languages, and as it was said in another comment, they're in lower demand.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

>When I hear "programmers are in high demand", I don't see it applying to me. This is a very nuanced statement and depends highly on region. When you hear "programmers are in high demand" it actually means "senior/experienced programmers in the company's stack who can quickly solve the issues piling up on their desk, are in high demand". Juniors or devs with near zero experience in that particular stack are getting rejection letters as most companies never consider on how transferrable dev skills are and prefer to wait until the perfect dev shows up, instead of giving someone new to the stack a few weeks to ramp up. At least that's how it is in my current country of Austria, but back in Eastern Europe, the demand for devs is so high due to US off-shoring and Western EU near-shoring, that companies will hire absolutely anyone who can write a for loop and even give them trainings to ramp them up quicker. It's literally impossible to be unemployed there even as an inexperienced slow learning coder. Sure you won't make six figure salaries, but you'll live far more comfortably than 90% of the population. IMO, just like in dating and real-estate, the dev jobs market is very much about "location, location, location".

woldenron 5y ago
Which countries you have in mind saying Eastern Europe?
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  Romania, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria, basically most former eastern bloc countries that are also EU members.

himinlomax 5y ago

Depression will distort your vision of reality and make things look worse than they are. It will also make it much harder to take even small risks for greater gains. In all likelihood, you're stuck in your position because you're limiting yourself in some ways. I'm not saying it's easy to get out of, I've been there, it's not.

BenderV 5y ago

I'm guessing if you don't live in a big city (Paris, Lille, ...) & stay on low-level programming (like C), there is really less demands. However, I guess most come down to your network, your confidence and how you represent yourself (having the same "cultural" code as experts). My 2 cents is to treat yourself well first (a healthy mind for a good body), travel more, and work on public stuff / connect with others.

Jiejeing 5y ago

Programmers are in high demand, even in France. That said, there are some major caveats: - Salaries posted on HN are way over the top compared to anything you can get in France - Most of the recruiting is done through SSIIs/ESNs (capgemini, sopra, atos, etc), which is often shit pay, shit management, shit missions (which is not really a boon if you are already depressive) For stability and peace of mind, the most straightforward way is to either enter software dev in a big corp (banks, etc, which have in-house teams), or some "éditeur logiciel" whose product is software. Video game development is a big no unless you knowingly want to be exploited for a while until you burn out. If you have experience, you can increasingly ask for full or close to full remote work if you insist a bit, but most of the time you will only be offered 2 to 3 days of remote work a week, which implies relocating. Although I don’t like saying this, if you do not have experience you could prep up a bit by working publicly on FOSS things that are relevant to your interest, to have technical things that you care about to talk about during an interview, even if it is totally unrelated to the domain you interview in.

Nextgrid 5y ago

To be fair when it comes to France, any job being in high demand generally wouldn't apply there. That country is the capital of unemployment from my experience, and I don't see it getting any better. But yes, lacking a degree is a big part of your problem. Fortunately, it's purely specific to France and you'll get better luck elsewhere in Europe. In my case I made my escape into the UK back when it was still possible.

jokoon 5y ago
Thanks, this comment really helps. Seems like it's a lot of wrong place, wrong time. It's true that not having degrees is like being a leper for some reason.
rdm_blackhole 5y ago
Salaries in Europe are definitely subpar compared to other locations.OP should try moving to Australia. Lots of jobs and the salaries are very good even for junior/mid.
Majestic121 5y ago
That does not match my experience at all, devs are in a very high demand in France, and once you have some dev experience on your resume you start getting a lot of Linkedin spam. As for unemployment rate in general, France is not amazing but it's far from being 'the capital of unemployment' (0.4% above the EU mean rate) : https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/unemployment-rate?continent=europe https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/unemployment-rate?... Did you have anything specific in your experience that could explain why you did not succeed there ?
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > Did you have anything specific in your experience that could explain why you did not succeed there ? I didn't have much besides self-employed/freelance experience back then (which was enough to get me a job in the UK) however even low-skill, non-tech jobs were impossible to get. Maybe it's improved since then and if so I'm glad. I might out of curiosity apply to a couple jobs with my current profile (now having ~7 years of work experience) and see what kind of offer they come back with.

austincheney 5y ago

> When I hear "programmers are in high demand", I don't see it applying to me. Because it probably doesn’t apply to you. It’s not that programmers are in high demand but that hiring programmers is in high demand, which is massively different. It’s the difference between people who solve problems as compared to people who reproduce the same problems to solve.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sage76 5y ago

> I don't see it applying to me. It only applies to a small set of people from top unis or those who have the FAANG brand names on their resumes. Otherwise, I know several people who tried for months to switch jobs and finally gave up due to exhaustion.

jd115 5y ago
I have NO university degree and ZERO affiliation with anything remotely FAANG (I'm based in Europe, where relatively few people work for FAANG). There are no globally recognisable names on my CV. I am still the highest paid person I personally know - by a rather high margin, because of my experience as a software engineer. Since I dropped out of university almost 20 years ago, I have been consulting and contracting, focusing almost exclusively on Python, PostgreSQL and, more recently, AWS. This simple combination (I usually refuse to learn anything new - I don't think there have been many noteworthy new technologies in the past couple of decades) has made me millions over the years and I have never been left without work for any significant period of time. Since the pandemic began, I have actually found myself contracting multiple roles concurrently, from my home, each paying significantly above the average developer rate. I've found I can do up to 3 - 4 at a time and still deliver results for each (declining to attend regular meetings helps).
- sage76 5y ago
  Good for you. I have experience with all 3 of those technologies and it's nearly impossible to even get an interview.
  - blindmute 5y ago
    There's something wrong with your resume or other personal information then. I was in the job market recently, I live in the boonies, and there is nothing impressive on my resume. There were literally not enough waking hours to schedule a call with every recruiter flooding me through LinkedIn. I had at least 5 interviews per week. I don't know what you're doing wrong, but it's something.