8 ms·

Why Do So Many Humans Need Glasses?

67 points by jasonhansel 5y ago

cute_boi 5y ago
To me, I believe, computer was the main reason. Before using computer my eyesight were ok. After with the advent of computer in my life, I became short-sighted (unable to see object that are far)
- techdragon 5y ago
  As someone with a computer heavy job and hobbies, I’m pretty impressed I’ve held onto better than 20/20 sight into my 30s. I’ve started to suspect that it might have something to do with having ADHD and the corresponding moments of distraction leading to above average amounts of eye movement and related refocusing leaving the eye “better exercised” than more attentive peers. While it’s just a data a point of one it’s always struck me as a fascinating hypothesis. Unfortunately I’m in computers not medical research or I’d have considered proposing a study, but I look forward to the day someone else diligently studies it and I get an answer to my personal pet theory.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- ulfw 5y ago
  Good for you. I was diagnosed as being short-sighted when I was 6. Had my first computer at 9.
  - cdf 5y ago
    Yeah, I was diagnosed at 6, had my first sustained computer interaction at 9, had my first computer at 21, first cellphone at 25. (I'm old, but I also live in the myopia capital of the world)
  - techdragon 5y ago
    That raises the important point that the article didn't really put any effort into distinguishing. Theres clearly "developmental" and "inherent", eye issues. My partner has a thorny case of astigmatism, you don't just develop a structural defect in the eye like that from environmental inputs, so its an established situation that some percentage of human eyeballs turn out different, it would be naive to think at least some percentage of long and short sightedness didn't also occur in this way. But once again I'm a computer person not a medical researcher so I could be wrong and it might be well established fact that astigmatism is the only inherent defect you're born with.
- rg111 5y ago
  Not really. I had glasses long before smartphones and before I had a computer. See, this is the problem with validating with anecdotes. For one for, five can be immediately found against.
- akemichan 5y ago
  There's a common misconception that using computers is the cause of hyper/myopia. The truth is that during the early years of development(up until 15-21 years old), the eye is not yet fully developed and it has great adaptability. This means that, if you are a kid and you read too much(on paper or computers or smartphones), the eye will develop to focus mainly on short distances, this developing myopia. This is the reason why kids textbooks have big letters, so that kids don't have to focus so much to read the text, and why kids using computers/reading too much(specially smartphone usage) is detrimental to their visual health. If you did this on your early ages, that certainly explains your issue, but it's not computers per se that cause it. The other big factor is the shape of the ocular globe. Some globes are "longer" than others, which causes the image focused by the cornea and retina to land in front or behind of the retina, causing the hyper/myopia. What you do actually experience a lot when using the computer too much is that when you focus on a task for a long time, your blink rate decreases, the tear film breaks more often, and you get sore eyes/eye fatigue. This is solved by regular breaks, or the 20/20/20 rule[0]. [0] https://www.aoa.org/AOA/Images/Patients/Eye%20Conditions/20-20-20-rule.pdf https://www.aoa.org/AOA/Images/Patients/Eye%20Conditions/20-...
  - techdragon 5y ago
    Well that definitely tracks my theory. As outlined https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30412185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30412185 I definitely didn't develop the short distance focus habits as a child. Do you know if the childhood developmental component has any relation to above average vision?
    - akemichan 5y ago
      > Do you know if the childhood developmental component has any relation to above average vision? Unfortunately I don't know, I'd like to know more too :)
  - Terry_Roll 5y ago
    I found having the brightness of the monitors turned helps alot, my monitor lux level is like 30 from 5cm away from the monitor. Plus as a kid I had glasses because the TV made my eyes water, the new LED light bulbs do the same thing as do some TV's. Now a variety of chemicals are involved in eyesight, histidine has been shown to reduce or prevent cataracts building up in Salmon, vit K alters an enzyme which also reduces the calcium buildup in the eye, so I wonder if eyesight is purely down to diet and exercise?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ycui1986 5y ago
My personal opinion is that the eye development is an adaptive process. During the eye development, the body has a feedback system that make sure the eyeball size matches the lens focusing capability so that the eye can focus to infinity. However, nothing can tell the feedback process what infinity is, thus I guess, the eye will assuming the most commonly archived far side focusing condition is the "infinity". Well, in modern days, people spend so much time in door and in front of computers, the body believe that is likely the infinity focusing condition, and thus the feedback system grow the eyeball bigger to make that the "infinity focusing" condition. Obviously, this is a personal opinion, there is no science to back it up.
- krackers 5y ago
  Now add in the fact that wearing minus lenses for close works restarts this process of hormesis, and you begin to realize that the entire optical industry ends up worsening a problem that they conveniently offer a "solution" to. Any minus lenses you purchase need to come with a big warning that they should not be used for distances closer than the focal plane.
  - allisdust 5y ago
    You will never see that happening. A $100 billion industry exists solely because of it. I feel sad whenever I see kids doing near work with glasses.
    - krackers 5y ago
      The kafka-esque part is that they're well aware of the issue, because many of the lens companies (hoya, zeiss) have come up with "myopia control glasses" which are basically just minus lenses but with reduced power on the periphery, which they'll gladly sell you for added markup. It's no surprise that these are better than full-on minus lenses for close work, but you know what would be even better? Telling children to remove their glasses when using the computer or reading. But that doesn't bring in any profit.
      - 5y ago
rg111 5y ago
This is mostly bollocks. Sure modern technologies is a big reason, but another reason is people caring about eyesight now. Before, if you had a bad eyesight, you just thought "life...!" and lived with it. The old world was segregated into a very very tiny upper class and the rest. When people from the latter part had diminished eyesight, they didn't bother. They thought that it was natural. Now, with so many people in the middle class who need good eyesight to browse Facebook, read books, or do a job, glasses are needed.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- steve_adams_86 5y ago
  I didn’t even realize I had bad eye sight as a kid. I still remember the first time I put on glasses (age 12) and feeling both sick and elated at how poor my eyesight had become, yet how much more I could now see. Your brain adapts remarkably well. Can’t see people you’re approaching? Alright, don’t try - just try to see when you know they’re close enough. Can’t see the chalk board? Whatever, just move closer. I suspect a lot of times I couldn’t see things, I didn’t even realize it too. What’s to be upset about if you can’t see it, and don’t realize you’re supposed to? I like my glasses and being able to see, but I doubt growing up like this without glasses would have mattered all that much to me. It would be a deal breaker for driving; I can’t consider for a second driving without glasses. Otherwise I could do a lot of the things I do the most, and I could do it well.
  - tommiegannert 5y ago
    Right after picking up my first glasses, me and my father sat down to have a snack in a café. I wasn't wearing the glasses, because they made the world bob around. Safely at the table, I put them on and looked out the window. That's when I felt, for the first time, that trees have individual leaves even when you're not close by. They even flutter in the wind, even at the top of the tree. I'd never been able to see the top of a tree in detail. Still remember that weird moment from 30 years ago. Addicted to glasses ever since.
ModernitySucks 5y ago
Broadly: evolutionary miss match to modern environment, but specifically: lack of fat soluble vitamins such as D3, K2 and A during critical development. https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/notes-from-yesteryear/vitamin-a-deficiency/ https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/notes-from-yester...
drewcoo 5y ago
To prove there is no god. https://kingministries.com/proof-god-is-real/the-human-eye-proves-god-exists/ https://kingministries.com/proof-god-is-real/the-human-eye-p... Seriously, the question smuggles in some assumptions, though.
bsdz 5y ago
I'm no expert but from what I've gleaned from various articles around the web and some recent questions to my optician is that myopia is caused by how light rays focus inside our eyes. Rays that don't focus correctly at the back of the eye (perhaps outside the macula?) create a feedback loop that causes the eye to grow longer. Unfortunately there's no opposite effect to make the eye shorter. So naturally there's a predisposition for everyone to become short sighted with this mechanism (perhaps a primary cause of coronavision?): "It is believed that the trigger for the eye to continue growing beyond its optimal length is in the way rays of light entering the visual system are focused on the back of the eye. In myopia, these rays or images focus in front of the retina causing a blurred image. Spectacles or contact lenses for myopia help focus these rays of light directly onto the retina in the central area correcting the vision, however, in the peripheral areas of the eye the rays of light are focused on theory “behind” the retina. It is believed this is a stimulus for the eye to grow. Myopia control or myopia management spectacles lenses and contact lenses are designed with more than one point of focus and therefore diminish this stimulus for the eye to grow." Above quoted from: https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/myopia-management-looking-after-the-other-pandemic/117599/ https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/myopia-management-looki...
- BizarroLand 5y ago
  I've heard that there are some eye drops in the works that temporarily reverse this process, so that instead of wearing glasses or contacts people may be using eye drops daily for better vision. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-fda-approved-eye-drops-could-replace-your-reading-glasses https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-fda-approved-eye-...
  - bsdz 5y ago
    Actually, those eye drops are to treat presbyopia which uses a different mechanism. Presbyopia typically affects older people and presents as long-sightedness (not short-sight like I described earlier). Presbyopia causes the lens in the eye to lose its elasticity and causes the eye to focus light behind the retina. Curiously, a similar effect (longsight) can be caused by the eyeball being too short (hypermetropia). That said the eye drops sound like pretty cool treatment.
imtringued 5y ago
Animal experiments have shown that the eye adapts to focusing distances and specific wavelenghts can induce more myopia than others. There is also some evidence that UV radiation breaks down growth hormones. This means computer screens and books don't matter, only time spent outdoors with a bright sun has protective effects. Alternatively you can get one of those ortho K lenses that prevent myopia from getting significantly worse when you are a child, they are very expensive though for something that our body should do for free.
- oigursh 5y ago
  My parents, younger sister and all grandparents have glasses. I used to stare at the sun when I was young (I know, dumb), and I don't need them yet (late 30s).
karmakaze 5y ago
I've been getting farsighted for over a decade now. When I first recognized that I needed reading glasses I really resisted using them. Bought some and only used them on days when I had to. On those days I was much more comfortable, relaxed, and not tired at the end of the day. Even know that I still avoided them for reasons not clear to me, whether I thought it might worsen my eyesight, but I suspect moreso that I didn't want to accept that I needed them. I have a variety of strengths of reading glasses around and do use them when working, but not for casual/entertainment uses. I have gotten pretty good at reading blurry text, sort-of like how you get used to reading upside-down or mirror writing. I find that this lets my eyes be more relaxed and I don't get as tired as I used to. Even when wearing the weakest readers I always try to look up over the lens when looking far away or take them off frequently. Leaving extras around the house also means I don't feel compelled to keep them on my face in case I'll want them. My visual acuity has on occasion also varied noticeably with my blood-sugar (or other levels) and many days I'm surprised by how clearly I'm able to see, so there isn't a clear downward grade. I have no idea if exercises actually help and other than trying to keep my eyes relaxed or screens not to bright don't do anything in particular.
fmajid 5y ago
The Chinese government is concerned enough about a rise in short-sightedness due to kids being made to spend long hours in cram school, and were considering various measures to make them go outside more.
Aurelius3 5y ago
It's interesting to see how the rapid advancement of technology has affected the human body over time and how we are trying to combat it with further technology. No bullshit, is there any way to reverse this apparent adaptation the eye undergoes during development? Would stimulating the eye with farther objects and other such corrections re adapt the eyes to normal? I realize there is a lot of pseudoscience and trickery in this subject so I am asking here for actual peer reviewed papers on the subject.
krageon 5y ago
Oh look, a psychology website publishes some woo "evolutionary environment" article. This is fiction and should not be taken seriously by anyone, so why do people still read it? Perhaps if you upvoted the article, you can enlighten me.
chosen1111 5y ago
Literacy
guilhas 5y ago
Because oculists will sell them to you weather you need them or not. And then you just get used to it. So many times I was maybe a bit more tired and I went to some oculist/ophthalmologist to see if I had something and they immediately try to sell you glasses. Nowadays I feel completely fine, as a software developer, using the PC heavily everyday. But I could very easily be using glasses as well
jacknews 5y ago
I thought it had been concluded that lack of exposure to bright outside light causes the eyes to elongate in puberty, as some kind of adaptation to low light. As little as an hour a day of bright daylight (or presumably bright-enough artificial light) triggers production of the required hormone to achieve 'normal' development. Certainly my kids get a daily hour of 'outside time', rain or shine. I'll try to dig up the links.

67 points by jasonhansel 5y ago

To me, I believe, computer was the main reason. Before using computer my eyesight were ok. After with the advent of computer in my life, I became short-sighted (unable to see object that are far)

techdragon 5y ago
As someone with a computer heavy job and hobbies, I’m pretty impressed I’ve held onto better than 20/20 sight into my 30s. I’ve started to suspect that it might have something to do with having ADHD and the corresponding moments of distraction leading to above average amounts of eye movement and related refocusing leaving the eye “better exercised” than more attentive peers. While it’s just a data a point of one it’s always struck me as a fascinating hypothesis. Unfortunately I’m in computers not medical research or I’d have considered proposing a study, but I look forward to the day someone else diligently studies it and I get an answer to my personal pet theory.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ulfw 5y ago
Good for you. I was diagnosed as being short-sighted when I was 6. Had my first computer at 9.
- cdf 5y ago
  Yeah, I was diagnosed at 6, had my first sustained computer interaction at 9, had my first computer at 21, first cellphone at 25. (I'm old, but I also live in the myopia capital of the world)
- techdragon 5y ago
  That raises the important point that the article didn't really put any effort into distinguishing. Theres clearly "developmental" and "inherent", eye issues. My partner has a thorny case of astigmatism, you don't just develop a structural defect in the eye like that from environmental inputs, so its an established situation that some percentage of human eyeballs turn out different, it would be naive to think at least some percentage of long and short sightedness didn't also occur in this way. But once again I'm a computer person not a medical researcher so I could be wrong and it might be well established fact that astigmatism is the only inherent defect you're born with.
rg111 5y ago
Not really. I had glasses long before smartphones and before I had a computer. See, this is the problem with validating with anecdotes. For one for, five can be immediately found against.
akemichan 5y ago
There's a common misconception that using computers is the cause of hyper/myopia. The truth is that during the early years of development(up until 15-21 years old), the eye is not yet fully developed and it has great adaptability. This means that, if you are a kid and you read too much(on paper or computers or smartphones), the eye will develop to focus mainly on short distances, this developing myopia. This is the reason why kids textbooks have big letters, so that kids don't have to focus so much to read the text, and why kids using computers/reading too much(specially smartphone usage) is detrimental to their visual health. If you did this on your early ages, that certainly explains your issue, but it's not computers per se that cause it. The other big factor is the shape of the ocular globe. Some globes are "longer" than others, which causes the image focused by the cornea and retina to land in front or behind of the retina, causing the hyper/myopia. What you do actually experience a lot when using the computer too much is that when you focus on a task for a long time, your blink rate decreases, the tear film breaks more often, and you get sore eyes/eye fatigue. This is solved by regular breaks, or the 20/20/20 rule[0]. [0] https://www.aoa.org/AOA/Images/Patients/Eye%20Conditions/20-20-20-rule.pdf https://www.aoa.org/AOA/Images/Patients/Eye%20Conditions/20-...
- techdragon 5y ago
  Well that definitely tracks my theory. As outlined https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30412185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30412185 I definitely didn't develop the short distance focus habits as a child. Do you know if the childhood developmental component has any relation to above average vision?
  - akemichan 5y ago
    > Do you know if the childhood developmental component has any relation to above average vision? Unfortunately I don't know, I'd like to know more too :)
- Terry_Roll 5y ago
  I found having the brightness of the monitors turned helps alot, my monitor lux level is like 30 from 5cm away from the monitor. Plus as a kid I had glasses because the TV made my eyes water, the new LED light bulbs do the same thing as do some TV's. Now a variety of chemicals are involved in eyesight, histidine has been shown to reduce or prevent cataracts building up in Salmon, vit K alters an enzyme which also reduces the calcium buildup in the eye, so I wonder if eyesight is purely down to diet and exercise?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ycui1986 5y ago

My personal opinion is that the eye development is an adaptive process. During the eye development, the body has a feedback system that make sure the eyeball size matches the lens focusing capability so that the eye can focus to infinity. However, nothing can tell the feedback process what infinity is, thus I guess, the eye will assuming the most commonly archived far side focusing condition is the "infinity". Well, in modern days, people spend so much time in door and in front of computers, the body believe that is likely the infinity focusing condition, and thus the feedback system grow the eyeball bigger to make that the "infinity focusing" condition. Obviously, this is a personal opinion, there is no science to back it up.

krackers 5y ago
Now add in the fact that wearing minus lenses for close works restarts this process of hormesis, and you begin to realize that the entire optical industry ends up worsening a problem that they conveniently offer a "solution" to. Any minus lenses you purchase need to come with a big warning that they should not be used for distances closer than the focal plane.
- allisdust 5y ago
  You will never see that happening. A $100 billion industry exists solely because of it. I feel sad whenever I see kids doing near work with glasses.
  - krackers 5y ago
    The kafka-esque part is that they're well aware of the issue, because many of the lens companies (hoya, zeiss) have come up with "myopia control glasses" which are basically just minus lenses but with reduced power on the periphery, which they'll gladly sell you for added markup. It's no surprise that these are better than full-on minus lenses for close work, but you know what would be even better? Telling children to remove their glasses when using the computer or reading. But that doesn't bring in any profit.
    - 5y ago

rg111 5y ago

This is mostly bollocks. Sure modern technologies is a big reason, but another reason is people caring about eyesight now. Before, if you had a bad eyesight, you just thought "life...!" and lived with it. The old world was segregated into a very very tiny upper class and the rest. When people from the latter part had diminished eyesight, they didn't bother. They thought that it was natural. Now, with so many people in the middle class who need good eyesight to browse Facebook, read books, or do a job, glasses are needed.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
steve_adams_86 5y ago
I didn’t even realize I had bad eye sight as a kid. I still remember the first time I put on glasses (age 12) and feeling both sick and elated at how poor my eyesight had become, yet how much more I could now see. Your brain adapts remarkably well. Can’t see people you’re approaching? Alright, don’t try - just try to see when you know they’re close enough. Can’t see the chalk board? Whatever, just move closer. I suspect a lot of times I couldn’t see things, I didn’t even realize it too. What’s to be upset about if you can’t see it, and don’t realize you’re supposed to? I like my glasses and being able to see, but I doubt growing up like this without glasses would have mattered all that much to me. It would be a deal breaker for driving; I can’t consider for a second driving without glasses. Otherwise I could do a lot of the things I do the most, and I could do it well.
- tommiegannert 5y ago
  Right after picking up my first glasses, me and my father sat down to have a snack in a café. I wasn't wearing the glasses, because they made the world bob around. Safely at the table, I put them on and looked out the window. That's when I felt, for the first time, that trees have individual leaves even when you're not close by. They even flutter in the wind, even at the top of the tree. I'd never been able to see the top of a tree in detail. Still remember that weird moment from 30 years ago. Addicted to glasses ever since.

ModernitySucks 5y ago

Broadly: evolutionary miss match to modern environment, but specifically: lack of fat soluble vitamins such as D3, K2 and A during critical development. https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/notes-from-yesteryear/vitamin-a-deficiency/ https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/notes-from-yester...

drewcoo 5y ago

To prove there is no god. https://kingministries.com/proof-god-is-real/the-human-eye-proves-god-exists/ https://kingministries.com/proof-god-is-real/the-human-eye-p... Seriously, the question smuggles in some assumptions, though.

bsdz 5y ago

I'm no expert but from what I've gleaned from various articles around the web and some recent questions to my optician is that myopia is caused by how light rays focus inside our eyes. Rays that don't focus correctly at the back of the eye (perhaps outside the macula?) create a feedback loop that causes the eye to grow longer. Unfortunately there's no opposite effect to make the eye shorter. So naturally there's a predisposition for everyone to become short sighted with this mechanism (perhaps a primary cause of coronavision?): "It is believed that the trigger for the eye to continue growing beyond its optimal length is in the way rays of light entering the visual system are focused on the back of the eye. In myopia, these rays or images focus in front of the retina causing a blurred image. Spectacles or contact lenses for myopia help focus these rays of light directly onto the retina in the central area correcting the vision, however, in the peripheral areas of the eye the rays of light are focused on theory “behind” the retina. It is believed this is a stimulus for the eye to grow. Myopia control or myopia management spectacles lenses and contact lenses are designed with more than one point of focus and therefore diminish this stimulus for the eye to grow." Above quoted from: https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/myopia-management-looking-after-the-other-pandemic/117599/ https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/myopia-management-looki...

BizarroLand 5y ago
I've heard that there are some eye drops in the works that temporarily reverse this process, so that instead of wearing glasses or contacts people may be using eye drops daily for better vision. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-fda-approved-eye-drops-could-replace-your-reading-glasses https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-fda-approved-eye-...
- bsdz 5y ago
  Actually, those eye drops are to treat presbyopia which uses a different mechanism. Presbyopia typically affects older people and presents as long-sightedness (not short-sight like I described earlier). Presbyopia causes the lens in the eye to lose its elasticity and causes the eye to focus light behind the retina. Curiously, a similar effect (longsight) can be caused by the eyeball being too short (hypermetropia). That said the eye drops sound like pretty cool treatment.

imtringued 5y ago

Animal experiments have shown that the eye adapts to focusing distances and specific wavelenghts can induce more myopia than others. There is also some evidence that UV radiation breaks down growth hormones. This means computer screens and books don't matter, only time spent outdoors with a bright sun has protective effects. Alternatively you can get one of those ortho K lenses that prevent myopia from getting significantly worse when you are a child, they are very expensive though for something that our body should do for free.

oigursh 5y ago
My parents, younger sister and all grandparents have glasses. I used to stare at the sun when I was young (I know, dumb), and I don't need them yet (late 30s).

karmakaze 5y ago

I've been getting farsighted for over a decade now. When I first recognized that I needed reading glasses I really resisted using them. Bought some and only used them on days when I had to. On those days I was much more comfortable, relaxed, and not tired at the end of the day. Even know that I still avoided them for reasons not clear to me, whether I thought it might worsen my eyesight, but I suspect moreso that I didn't want to accept that I needed them. I have a variety of strengths of reading glasses around and do use them when working, but not for casual/entertainment uses. I have gotten pretty good at reading blurry text, sort-of like how you get used to reading upside-down or mirror writing. I find that this lets my eyes be more relaxed and I don't get as tired as I used to. Even when wearing the weakest readers I always try to look up over the lens when looking far away or take them off frequently. Leaving extras around the house also means I don't feel compelled to keep them on my face in case I'll want them. My visual acuity has on occasion also varied noticeably with my blood-sugar (or other levels) and many days I'm surprised by how clearly I'm able to see, so there isn't a clear downward grade. I have no idea if exercises actually help and other than trying to keep my eyes relaxed or screens not to bright don't do anything in particular.

fmajid 5y ago

The Chinese government is concerned enough about a rise in short-sightedness due to kids being made to spend long hours in cram school, and were considering various measures to make them go outside more.

Aurelius3 5y ago

It's interesting to see how the rapid advancement of technology has affected the human body over time and how we are trying to combat it with further technology. No bullshit, is there any way to reverse this apparent adaptation the eye undergoes during development? Would stimulating the eye with farther objects and other such corrections re adapt the eyes to normal? I realize there is a lot of pseudoscience and trickery in this subject so I am asking here for actual peer reviewed papers on the subject.

krageon 5y ago

Oh look, a psychology website publishes some woo "evolutionary environment" article. This is fiction and should not be taken seriously by anyone, so why do people still read it? Perhaps if you upvoted the article, you can enlighten me.

chosen1111 5y ago

Literacy

guilhas 5y ago

Because oculists will sell them to you weather you need them or not. And then you just get used to it. So many times I was maybe a bit more tired and I went to some oculist/ophthalmologist to see if I had something and they immediately try to sell you glasses. Nowadays I feel completely fine, as a software developer, using the PC heavily everyday. But I could very easily be using glasses as well

jacknews 5y ago

I thought it had been concluded that lack of exposure to bright outside light causes the eyes to elongate in puberty, as some kind of adaptation to low light. As little as an hour a day of bright daylight (or presumably bright-enough artificial light) triggers production of the required hormone to achieve 'normal' development. Certainly my kids get a daily hour of 'outside time', rain or shine. I'll try to dig up the links.