5 ms·

Was going to ask for someone smarter than me to explain what warm blooded plants would do, but decided to google it and found this speech by dyson: https://www

by dnsco 5y ago

Was going to ask for someone smarter than me to explain what warm blooded plants would do, but decided to google it and found this speech by dyson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yzgPMwshqE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yzgPMwshqE

Firmwarrior 5y ago
Quick excerpt: "The first species to emerge from a Noah’s Ark egg will be warm-blooded plants designed to collect energy from sunlight and keep themselves warm in a cold environment. “Plants could be engineered to grow greenhouses the way turtles grow shells” The greenhouse would consist of a thick skin providing thermal insulation, with small windows to admit sunlight. Outside the skin would be an array of simple lenses, focusing sunlight through the windows into the interior. Groups of greenhouses could grow together to form extended habitats for other species of plants and animals. In that way, “We will be the machines getting life to grow all over the universe.”
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  Plants like that already exist minus the exothermy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaf_window https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaf_window https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesembryanthemum_crystallinum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesembryanthemum_crystallinu...
  - Qem 5y ago
    Cycads are kinda warm-blooded plants. They heat-up their cones to attract pollinators. Oliver Sacks mentions this fact in his book, The Island of the Colorblind. See https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071004143133.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071004143133.h...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    Is there a botanist in the house? How do we crossbreed plants this radically different? Here’s the Wikipedia on thermogenic plants. I did not know skunk cabbage can melt snow! I used to have it in my back yard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermogenic_plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermogenic_plant Here’s a paper on the genetics and cellular biology of thermogenesis in skunk cabbage: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21955303/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21955303/
    - dekhn 5y ago
      you don't. you make solar panels, which are more efficient than plants at converting solar energy to electrical current, and then use it to run a space heater. Don't genetically engineer what you can engineer in silicon.
- moralestapia 5y ago
  Are they thermodynamically feasible, though? Assuming perfect efficiency in capturing whatever sunlight they get, perfect conversion to chemical storage (i.e. sugars, or any other fancy molecule with energy-intensive bonds) and a perfect conversion from that to heat. Would there be enough energy to keep the plant warm? Against a temperature difference of 40ºC+?
  - vimax 5y ago
    The hot side of JWST is currently 57c, that's a lot of energy to capture.
    - moralestapia 5y ago
      Ok, but then (and my curiosity is sincere) why would you need a plant to "stay warm" at 57°C. Because of the night? But that could be solved with some sort of passive solution that buffers the temperature along the day, not neccessarily producing its own heat.
      - blacksmith_tb 5y ago
        Would night have to happen? In lots of orbits couldn't the plant keep the window facing the sun continuously? I assume in general staying warm is a plus for making reactions (like photosynthesis) easier and faster, so better for building a big living colony.
        moralestapia 5y ago
        You're absolutely right! Night is a little thing that happens to us but is far from universal, never thought of that. So, then again, why would you need to warm yourself if you get a warm sun shower perpetually?
      - vimax 5y ago
        If it's an asteroid what is night even like? It seems like it'd be a lot less extreme than a planet. I could imagine a plant that walks along the surface to stay in the sunlight. Maybe lay down roots all over the asteroid to do the refining and have long tethered leaves always in the sun. If the leaf stalks can grow at the same rate as the asteroid rotation, just keep growing and wrapping the asteroid until you're left with nicely spooled refined materials. I don't think a hot blooded plant is practical or necessary, but there is enough energy that it could be possible.
mrfusion 5y ago
On that vein I had the idea of engineering floating plants to live in the nice altitude of venuses atmosphere. Oxygen plants produce would actually be a lifting gas on Venus so pretty doable. Plenty of sunlight and co2 too. But I hit a wall with the Mack of water in the atmosphere.
- miki_tyler 5y ago
  I am obsessed with Venus and I have thought a lot about acidophilic prairies floating on the Venus atmosphere. They would be indistinguishable from land if you are standing on top of them, you can build your Hobbit house there. It is an amazing concept!
  - mrfusion 5y ago
    Wow I love that idea. So the plants would absorb the acid in the atmosphere? I guess you’d just need to provide your own water?
    - miki_tyler 5y ago
      Sorry about the late reply. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what is going on in HN. A while ago I posted about it in Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ColonizeVenus/comments/ku55zg/floating_prairies_in_the_venus_atmosphere/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ColonizeVenus/comments/ku55zg/float...
- ericbarrett 5y ago
  You will have to deal with the insane thermal flux too. Even where the atmosphere is Earth-like in temperature, you will have a very hot radiator below you and frozen space above. (If you were in low Venus orbit, and could "stick your head out" of the spacecraft, Venus would feel as warm on your face as the noon sun on Earth. On the night side. That's how hot the planet is.) So for anything larger than algae, even in the convective atmosphere, you're going to have a side that's burning hot and a side that's freezing.
  - 5y ago
hnmullany 5y ago
I think we've learned a lot about soil complexity since then and how hard soil is to create.
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  Soil for our plants is hard to create. That doesn't mean soil for any kind of organism is as hard. There are many of them that don't need all that complexity even on our world that doesn't strongly select for it.

by dnsco 5y ago

Firmwarrior 5y ago

Quick excerpt: "The first species to emerge from a Noah’s Ark egg will be warm-blooded plants designed to collect energy from sunlight and keep themselves warm in a cold environment. “Plants could be engineered to grow greenhouses the way turtles grow shells” The greenhouse would consist of a thick skin providing thermal insulation, with small windows to admit sunlight. Outside the skin would be an array of simple lenses, focusing sunlight through the windows into the interior. Groups of greenhouses could grow together to form extended habitats for other species of plants and animals. In that way, “We will be the machines getting life to grow all over the universe.”

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
Plants like that already exist minus the exothermy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaf_window https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaf_window https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesembryanthemum_crystallinum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesembryanthemum_crystallinu...
- Qem 5y ago
  Cycads are kinda warm-blooded plants. They heat-up their cones to attract pollinators. Oliver Sacks mentions this fact in his book, The Island of the Colorblind. See https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071004143133.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071004143133.h...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  Is there a botanist in the house? How do we crossbreed plants this radically different? Here’s the Wikipedia on thermogenic plants. I did not know skunk cabbage can melt snow! I used to have it in my back yard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermogenic_plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermogenic_plant Here’s a paper on the genetics and cellular biology of thermogenesis in skunk cabbage: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21955303/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21955303/
  - dekhn 5y ago
    you don't. you make solar panels, which are more efficient than plants at converting solar energy to electrical current, and then use it to run a space heater. Don't genetically engineer what you can engineer in silicon.
moralestapia 5y ago
Are they thermodynamically feasible, though? Assuming perfect efficiency in capturing whatever sunlight they get, perfect conversion to chemical storage (i.e. sugars, or any other fancy molecule with energy-intensive bonds) and a perfect conversion from that to heat. Would there be enough energy to keep the plant warm? Against a temperature difference of 40ºC+?
- vimax 5y ago
  The hot side of JWST is currently 57c, that's a lot of energy to capture.
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    Ok, but then (and my curiosity is sincere) why would you need a plant to "stay warm" at 57°C. Because of the night? But that could be solved with some sort of passive solution that buffers the temperature along the day, not neccessarily producing its own heat.
    - blacksmith_tb 5y ago
      Would night have to happen? In lots of orbits couldn't the plant keep the window facing the sun continuously? I assume in general staying warm is a plus for making reactions (like photosynthesis) easier and faster, so better for building a big living colony.
      - moralestapia 5y ago
        You're absolutely right! Night is a little thing that happens to us but is far from universal, never thought of that. So, then again, why would you need to warm yourself if you get a warm sun shower perpetually?
    - vimax 5y ago
      If it's an asteroid what is night even like? It seems like it'd be a lot less extreme than a planet. I could imagine a plant that walks along the surface to stay in the sunlight. Maybe lay down roots all over the asteroid to do the refining and have long tethered leaves always in the sun. If the leaf stalks can grow at the same rate as the asteroid rotation, just keep growing and wrapping the asteroid until you're left with nicely spooled refined materials. I don't think a hot blooded plant is practical or necessary, but there is enough energy that it could be possible.

mrfusion 5y ago

On that vein I had the idea of engineering floating plants to live in the nice altitude of venuses atmosphere. Oxygen plants produce would actually be a lifting gas on Venus so pretty doable. Plenty of sunlight and co2 too. But I hit a wall with the Mack of water in the atmosphere.

miki_tyler 5y ago
I am obsessed with Venus and I have thought a lot about acidophilic prairies floating on the Venus atmosphere. They would be indistinguishable from land if you are standing on top of them, you can build your Hobbit house there. It is an amazing concept!
- mrfusion 5y ago
  Wow I love that idea. So the plants would absorb the acid in the atmosphere? I guess you’d just need to provide your own water?
  - miki_tyler 5y ago
    Sorry about the late reply. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what is going on in HN. A while ago I posted about it in Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ColonizeVenus/comments/ku55zg/floating_prairies_in_the_venus_atmosphere/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ColonizeVenus/comments/ku55zg/float...
ericbarrett 5y ago
You will have to deal with the insane thermal flux too. Even where the atmosphere is Earth-like in temperature, you will have a very hot radiator below you and frozen space above. (If you were in low Venus orbit, and could "stick your head out" of the spacecraft, Venus would feel as warm on your face as the noon sun on Earth. On the night side. That's how hot the planet is.) So for anything larger than algae, even in the convective atmosphere, you're going to have a side that's burning hot and a side that's freezing.
- 5y ago

hnmullany 5y ago

I think we've learned a lot about soil complexity since then and how hard soil is to create.

marcosdumay 5y ago
Soil for our plants is hard to create. That doesn't mean soil for any kind of organism is as hard. There are many of them that don't need all that complexity even on our world that doesn't strongly select for it.