6 ms·

Justin Trudeau’s crackdown on protests could make things worse

60 points by runeks 5y ago

runeks 5y ago
https://archive.ph/j8b7l https://archive.ph/j8b7l
space_rock 5y ago
Freezing bank accounts is an ugly overreach. Going to give sympathy to the protesters
- babyshake 5y ago
  It is certainly playing with fire.
- roenxi 5y ago
  It is amazing to watch freezing bank accounts being seriously considered. I note the article throws in a "...perhaps to suggest, absurdly, that Canada’s covid-19 restrictions are akin to Nazism...". A fair comment in my view, but it does raise an interesting question - what is this comparable to? This is something extreme, it must be comparable to some major past event. Attacking truck drivers in this way isn't normal peacetime activity, it looks like a lot of extreme measures are being taken. > "The other proposed change would let individuals file legal complaints against people pre-emptively, if they fear that they may be about to say something hateful." Also, woah. Is that at all true?
  - ls15 5y ago
    Covid policies remind me of the Stanford-Prison-Experiment. Divide a population into two subgroups. Introduce strict rules for group B and let group A enforce them. See what happens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment The nazis used this pattern too, but they also systematically murdered group B, which in my opinion disqualifies direct comparisons.
    - Arnt 5y ago
      Uhm, the key of the experiment was that someone did active division. The vaccine situation isn't like that. People decided on their own whether to get a vaccine. Just like whether they decide on their own how to vote, how to eat, etc. Some of them are militant about whether others should eat meat or inject vaccines, they're not encouraged to be militant by Justin Trudeau or Stanford researchers.
      - ls15 5y ago
        > Uhm, the key of the experiment was that someone did active division. I think that the division of people by vaccination status is active, like a division by religion or language would be active. > they're not encouraged to be militant by Justin Trudeau or Stanford researchers. I am not sure about this. Some argue that demand characteristics lead to the outcome of the experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Demand_characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Dem... The BBC experiment had a different outcome. Like the Danish "experiment" today (no mandates, no protests, nobody calling for state of emergency).
        Arnt 5y ago
        Could you elaborate on why this is an active division? It might help if you explain it by comparing/contrasting it with the situation wrt. measles vaccines, which I understand is mandatory in parts of Canada and which hasn't involved noticeable protest.
        ls15 5y ago
        Two doses of measles vaccine are 97% effective and do not need any further boosters, while we don't know if 4 doses of today's SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are effective against next month's variant. As I understand, with measles vaccines an outbreak can be prevented, while SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are not stopping the virus even in fully vaccinated populations. We also need to look at risks. Covid risks are spread unevenly over a population and it does not look to me like the threat is existential for humanity. Especially younger people are looking at worse risk/benefit ratios than older people. Since the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are not good at preventing transmission, I don't think that a mandate is needed, suitable or adequate. There are no mandates to quit drinking, smoking, potato chips and extreme sports or to do yoga, to eat healthy and to take proper supplements. Introducing such mandates may technically be possible, but it would leave us with a system like the social credit score where we need to prove our smoking, drinking or yoga status in order to be allowed to just be. Being required to prove our vaccination status already introduces a little bit of this and vaccinations could be done without this, by just not mandating them. I think it is fair to protest against this.
- Ataraxiaist 5y ago
  It seems like quite a political miscalculation. It makes me wonder who advises him because it really is the type of move you would hope your political opposition makes when future elections are involved.
vgel 5y ago
Somewhat OT: this is an editorial, right? The tone clearly reads as one, but Ctrl+F "opinion" or "editorial" has 0 results, and I couldn't find an author byline. Why do newspapers do this?
- ralfn 5y ago
  The Economist isn't a newspaper. It's an opinion magazine. The reason you got confused about that is because actual newspaper behave like opinion magazines these days too.
- gerikson 5y ago
  The URL contains the term "leaders" which is UK English for an editorial piece.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  > this is an editorial, right? Yes Not just the tone but there are several indications. Like the "Leaders" section. Or phrases like "The Economist has long argued..." But yeah the lack of an author byline is weird and not something I agree with.
  - fmajid 5y ago
    https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/09/04/why-are-the-economists-writers-anonymous https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/09/04/...
- juanci_to 5y ago
  >I couldn't find an author byline. Probably, the author was obligated to write this by a superior and chose to do it anonymously. I heard this happens sometimes in the media from where I come
  - eesmith 5y ago
    The Economist always has anonymous writers. https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/09/04/why-are-the-economists-writers-anonymous https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/09/04/...
christmm 5y ago
ctoth 5y ago
> The other proposed change would let individuals file legal complaints against people pre-emptively, if they fear that they may be about to say something hateful. Is this for real? This is like a parody of a parody of a parody of what the most strident libertarians would accuse "big government" types of wanting to do, right? This isn't actually being considered? Nobody can actually justify charging people with precrime, right?
- cloutchaser 5y ago
  Yeah but hate speech. It makes people feel unsafe. And while you’re at it, we need to protect the children, so we need to monitor 100% of the internet and ban encryption. But it’s for your safety.
- misja111 5y ago
  > Nobody can actually justify charging people with precrime, right? This is not unique, in most countries you can be charged for planning a terrorist attack as well.
  - jesusofnazarath 5y ago
  - pomdapi 5y ago
    Not quite. What Canada already has (compelled speach laws) and is planning to do certainly is unique, except maybe a couple dictatorships if you criticize the regime. While the proposed text defines hatred as "[...] the emotion that involves detestation or vilification and that is stronger than dislike or disdain", the text also says : "A person may, with the Attorney General’s consent, lay an information before a provincial court judge if the person fears on reasonable grounds that another person will commit [...] (c) an offence motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on race, national or ethnic origin, language, colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or any other similar factor." In essence, if somebody thinks they can prove you might in the fututre say something along any of the motives above, it's "terrorism" analogue, and the state can act unilaterally, without any judicial process. I can only remember, being from ex-yugoslavia, which used to be a diverse ex-communist country, a similar set of "terrorizing of free speech" laws, right after WWII by Tito. They had been deemed necessary to use fear of Communists to quell any desire for any kind of revenge for the massacres and exterminations in death camps from WWII, and suffocate any nationalism. They were rescinded in the mid 1950's because of the harm they had caused back then. It was used to send 75K people in gulag, a lot innocent, just denounced by people who didn't like them. 54K never came back, 60K more were sent to regular prison for 1-5 years. Also, seeing the 1990's, they quite obviously didn't work, people just kept their fear of the other and desire for revenge inside, not talking, slowly simmering to a boiling point. Not saying Trudeau's opening polar work camps, but he certainly stepped on (over ?) the border of that territory.
hericium 5y ago
At one point I was thinking about moving to Canada. Then the ethnic genocides news came which connected Pierre Elliott Trudeau (Justin's father) to "wiping out the Indian problem" with the Catholic Church. Justin distanced himself only to wait a few months and show his lack of basic decency. Blocking people's access to their own money is extremely low. I find it hard to have any kind of respect for Justin Trudeau. Other than that, I really thought that I'd have to wait longer - at least till the end of analog money - to see first signs of western-government-turned-slave-master. When we forfeit cash, we forfeit freedom and ownership. There will just be corporations and government allowing us access to "our" money under strict slavery-like conditions.
- tonfreed 5y ago
  Justin Trudeau got elected by being a pretty boy and the son of a popular Canadian prime minister. Anytime he's asked a hardball question, listen to the word salad he spits out. He's a man of zero substance, but unfortunately the Conservatives aren't offering any alternative either.
sschueller 5y ago
What I don't understand (looking in from Europe) is why the Police just doesn't confiscate every single truck that is blocking or honking all day? Can't you cite them with improper operation of a vehicle or reckless operation and impound the vehicle? Also if you are going to start freezing bank accounts, how are you going to identify people? They may not even have an ID on them and the truck might be stolen for all we know.
- cloutchaser 5y ago
  As far as I know many many towing companies are refusing to help. How do you get rid of trucks without towing trucks?
  - baq 5y ago
    Tow with a tank. I mean, isn’t it getting close to that?
    - tpxl 5y ago
      Using military to do police work is a dangerous business.
      - baq 5y ago
        So is freezing bank accounts of innocent people…
        muzika 5y ago
        Without a court order..
  - NoPie 5y ago
    Easy, by diplomacy not by force. Talk to truckers at first. Listen what they want. Get rid of useless vaccine mandates and the truckers will leave on their own accord.
throwaway4good 5y ago
Why would clearing an illegal blockade aimed at causing economic disruption be "seeking to curb free speech"?
- misja111 5y ago
  If you read the article, you will find: > The other proposed change would let individuals file legal complaints against people pre-emptively, if they fear that they may be about to say something hateful.
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  That's a lot of words just to say "protest."
- Gamemaster1379 5y ago
  Perhaps they should consider alternate protests, like the fiery, but mostly peaceful kind.
Nursie 5y ago
> A wise government would listen to them and respond politely, taking their complaints seriously and patiently explaining why covid restrictions, though onerous, are necessary for the time being. This seems unlikely to achieve anything, given that the convoy seems consist of antivax folks for whom patient explanation of the principles by authority figures is ineffective. > The police already have ample powers to quell disorder. But apparently haven't been using them. Entire article is fluff. And not at all tech related.
- cloutchaser 5y ago
  Interestingly, a larger percent of truckers are vaccinated than the Canadian population. So calling them anti vax is about as descriptive and useful as calling them racist or mysoginist.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    I didn't call "truckers" anti vax. I said a lot of the convoy are. The idea they represent all truckers is pretty unfounded, they appear to be a niche group.
    - loudtieblahblah 5y ago
      They're both niche and so powerful they warrant the response? Which is it.
      - nickthegreek 5y ago
        Those are not mutually exclusive.
- kbelder 5y ago
  Be more precise when using the term 'antivax'. The protest isn't about that; it's about vaccine mandates. You can very easily be pro-vaccine and against the mandates.
  - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Communitivity 5y ago
I read the comments and see a large misconception. The belief seems to be that the mask mandates are there to protect the mask wearers. They aren't. They are there to protect immunocompromised people who still have to go about their life as best as they can. Many people could go without masks and if they get sick, it's mild (though there are studies[1] that show even a mild covid can cause lasting heart damage). But before they even knew they were sick they would be spreading it to everyone around them. And there are quite a few immunocompromised people who if they get COVID may very well die. I'm married to one. Do you drive 70 mph in a 30 mph zone? If you are advocating removing mask and vaccination mandates then that is effectively what you are doing. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00403-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00403-0
- ecf 5y ago
  The people who are least valuable to a society are usually the ones who think their rights are violated when mandates are drafted to protect those with no other option.

60 points by runeks 5y ago

runeks 5y ago

https://archive.ph/j8b7l https://archive.ph/j8b7l

space_rock 5y ago

Freezing bank accounts is an ugly overreach. Going to give sympathy to the protesters

babyshake 5y ago
It is certainly playing with fire.
roenxi 5y ago
It is amazing to watch freezing bank accounts being seriously considered. I note the article throws in a "...perhaps to suggest, absurdly, that Canada’s covid-19 restrictions are akin to Nazism...". A fair comment in my view, but it does raise an interesting question - what is this comparable to? This is something extreme, it must be comparable to some major past event. Attacking truck drivers in this way isn't normal peacetime activity, it looks like a lot of extreme measures are being taken. > "The other proposed change would let individuals file legal complaints against people pre-emptively, if they fear that they may be about to say something hateful." Also, woah. Is that at all true?
- ls15 5y ago
  Covid policies remind me of the Stanford-Prison-Experiment. Divide a population into two subgroups. Introduce strict rules for group B and let group A enforce them. See what happens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment The nazis used this pattern too, but they also systematically murdered group B, which in my opinion disqualifies direct comparisons.
  - Arnt 5y ago
    Uhm, the key of the experiment was that someone did active division. The vaccine situation isn't like that. People decided on their own whether to get a vaccine. Just like whether they decide on their own how to vote, how to eat, etc. Some of them are militant about whether others should eat meat or inject vaccines, they're not encouraged to be militant by Justin Trudeau or Stanford researchers.
    - ls15 5y ago
      > Uhm, the key of the experiment was that someone did active division. I think that the division of people by vaccination status is active, like a division by religion or language would be active. > they're not encouraged to be militant by Justin Trudeau or Stanford researchers. I am not sure about this. Some argue that demand characteristics lead to the outcome of the experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Demand_characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Dem... The BBC experiment had a different outcome. Like the Danish "experiment" today (no mandates, no protests, nobody calling for state of emergency).
      - Arnt 5y ago
        Could you elaborate on why this is an active division? It might help if you explain it by comparing/contrasting it with the situation wrt. measles vaccines, which I understand is mandatory in parts of Canada and which hasn't involved noticeable protest.
        ls15 5y ago
        Two doses of measles vaccine are 97% effective and do not need any further boosters, while we don't know if 4 doses of today's SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are effective against next month's variant. As I understand, with measles vaccines an outbreak can be prevented, while SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are not stopping the virus even in fully vaccinated populations. We also need to look at risks. Covid risks are spread unevenly over a population and it does not look to me like the threat is existential for humanity. Especially younger people are looking at worse risk/benefit ratios than older people. Since the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are not good at preventing transmission, I don't think that a mandate is needed, suitable or adequate. There are no mandates to quit drinking, smoking, potato chips and extreme sports or to do yoga, to eat healthy and to take proper supplements. Introducing such mandates may technically be possible, but it would leave us with a system like the social credit score where we need to prove our smoking, drinking or yoga status in order to be allowed to just be. Being required to prove our vaccination status already introduces a little bit of this and vaccinations could be done without this, by just not mandating them. I think it is fair to protest against this.
Ataraxiaist 5y ago
It seems like quite a political miscalculation. It makes me wonder who advises him because it really is the type of move you would hope your political opposition makes when future elections are involved.

vgel 5y ago

Somewhat OT: this is an editorial, right? The tone clearly reads as one, but Ctrl+F "opinion" or "editorial" has 0 results, and I couldn't find an author byline. Why do newspapers do this?

ralfn 5y ago
The Economist isn't a newspaper. It's an opinion magazine. The reason you got confused about that is because actual newspaper behave like opinion magazines these days too.
gerikson 5y ago
The URL contains the term "leaders" which is UK English for an editorial piece.
raverbashing 5y ago
> this is an editorial, right? Yes Not just the tone but there are several indications. Like the "Leaders" section. Or phrases like "The Economist has long argued..." But yeah the lack of an author byline is weird and not something I agree with.
- fmajid 5y ago
  https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/09/04/why-are-the-economists-writers-anonymous https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/09/04/...
juanci_to 5y ago
>I couldn't find an author byline. Probably, the author was obligated to write this by a superior and chose to do it anonymously. I heard this happens sometimes in the media from where I come
- eesmith 5y ago
  The Economist always has anonymous writers. https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/09/04/why-are-the-economists-writers-anonymous https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/09/04/...

christmm 5y ago

ctoth 5y ago

> The other proposed change would let individuals file legal complaints against people pre-emptively, if they fear that they may be about to say something hateful. Is this for real? This is like a parody of a parody of a parody of what the most strident libertarians would accuse "big government" types of wanting to do, right? This isn't actually being considered? Nobody can actually justify charging people with precrime, right?

cloutchaser 5y ago
Yeah but hate speech. It makes people feel unsafe. And while you’re at it, we need to protect the children, so we need to monitor 100% of the internet and ban encryption. But it’s for your safety.
misja111 5y ago
> Nobody can actually justify charging people with precrime, right? This is not unique, in most countries you can be charged for planning a terrorist attack as well.
- jesusofnazarath 5y ago
- pomdapi 5y ago
  Not quite. What Canada already has (compelled speach laws) and is planning to do certainly is unique, except maybe a couple dictatorships if you criticize the regime. While the proposed text defines hatred as "[...] the emotion that involves detestation or vilification and that is stronger than dislike or disdain", the text also says : "A person may, with the Attorney General’s consent, lay an information before a provincial court judge if the person fears on reasonable grounds that another person will commit [...] (c) an offence motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on race, national or ethnic origin, language, colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or any other similar factor." In essence, if somebody thinks they can prove you might in the fututre say something along any of the motives above, it's "terrorism" analogue, and the state can act unilaterally, without any judicial process. I can only remember, being from ex-yugoslavia, which used to be a diverse ex-communist country, a similar set of "terrorizing of free speech" laws, right after WWII by Tito. They had been deemed necessary to use fear of Communists to quell any desire for any kind of revenge for the massacres and exterminations in death camps from WWII, and suffocate any nationalism. They were rescinded in the mid 1950's because of the harm they had caused back then. It was used to send 75K people in gulag, a lot innocent, just denounced by people who didn't like them. 54K never came back, 60K more were sent to regular prison for 1-5 years. Also, seeing the 1990's, they quite obviously didn't work, people just kept their fear of the other and desire for revenge inside, not talking, slowly simmering to a boiling point. Not saying Trudeau's opening polar work camps, but he certainly stepped on (over ?) the border of that territory.

hericium 5y ago

At one point I was thinking about moving to Canada. Then the ethnic genocides news came which connected Pierre Elliott Trudeau (Justin's father) to "wiping out the Indian problem" with the Catholic Church. Justin distanced himself only to wait a few months and show his lack of basic decency. Blocking people's access to their own money is extremely low. I find it hard to have any kind of respect for Justin Trudeau. Other than that, I really thought that I'd have to wait longer - at least till the end of analog money - to see first signs of western-government-turned-slave-master. When we forfeit cash, we forfeit freedom and ownership. There will just be corporations and government allowing us access to "our" money under strict slavery-like conditions.

tonfreed 5y ago
Justin Trudeau got elected by being a pretty boy and the son of a popular Canadian prime minister. Anytime he's asked a hardball question, listen to the word salad he spits out. He's a man of zero substance, but unfortunately the Conservatives aren't offering any alternative either.

sschueller 5y ago

What I don't understand (looking in from Europe) is why the Police just doesn't confiscate every single truck that is blocking or honking all day? Can't you cite them with improper operation of a vehicle or reckless operation and impound the vehicle? Also if you are going to start freezing bank accounts, how are you going to identify people? They may not even have an ID on them and the truck might be stolen for all we know.

cloutchaser 5y ago
As far as I know many many towing companies are refusing to help. How do you get rid of trucks without towing trucks?
- baq 5y ago
  Tow with a tank. I mean, isn’t it getting close to that?
  - tpxl 5y ago
    Using military to do police work is a dangerous business.
    - baq 5y ago
      So is freezing bank accounts of innocent people…
      - muzika 5y ago
        Without a court order..
- NoPie 5y ago
  Easy, by diplomacy not by force. Talk to truckers at first. Listen what they want. Get rid of useless vaccine mandates and the truckers will leave on their own accord.

throwaway4good 5y ago

Why would clearing an illegal blockade aimed at causing economic disruption be "seeking to curb free speech"?

misja111 5y ago
If you read the article, you will find: > The other proposed change would let individuals file legal complaints against people pre-emptively, if they fear that they may be about to say something hateful.
nathanaldensr 5y ago
That's a lot of words just to say "protest."
Gamemaster1379 5y ago
Perhaps they should consider alternate protests, like the fiery, but mostly peaceful kind.

Nursie 5y ago

> A wise government would listen to them and respond politely, taking their complaints seriously and patiently explaining why covid restrictions, though onerous, are necessary for the time being. This seems unlikely to achieve anything, given that the convoy seems consist of antivax folks for whom patient explanation of the principles by authority figures is ineffective. > The police already have ample powers to quell disorder. But apparently haven't been using them. Entire article is fluff. And not at all tech related.

cloutchaser 5y ago
Interestingly, a larger percent of truckers are vaccinated than the Canadian population. So calling them anti vax is about as descriptive and useful as calling them racist or mysoginist.
- Nursie 5y ago
  I didn't call "truckers" anti vax. I said a lot of the convoy are. The idea they represent all truckers is pretty unfounded, they appear to be a niche group.
  - loudtieblahblah 5y ago
    They're both niche and so powerful they warrant the response? Which is it.
    - nickthegreek 5y ago
      Those are not mutually exclusive.
kbelder 5y ago
Be more precise when using the term 'antivax'. The protest isn't about that; it's about vaccine mandates. You can very easily be pro-vaccine and against the mandates.
- 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Communitivity 5y ago

I read the comments and see a large misconception. The belief seems to be that the mask mandates are there to protect the mask wearers. They aren't. They are there to protect immunocompromised people who still have to go about their life as best as they can. Many people could go without masks and if they get sick, it's mild (though there are studies[1] that show even a mild covid can cause lasting heart damage). But before they even knew they were sick they would be spreading it to everyone around them. And there are quite a few immunocompromised people who if they get COVID may very well die. I'm married to one. Do you drive 70 mph in a 30 mph zone? If you are advocating removing mask and vaccination mandates then that is effectively what you are doing. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00403-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00403-0

ecf 5y ago
The people who are least valuable to a society are usually the ones who think their rights are violated when mandates are drafted to protect those with no other option.