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> Vaccine effectiveness largely wanes after 4-5 months. The article merely says Thus, our data indicates that mRNA vaccination may generate more neutralizing R

by yumraj 5y ago

> Vaccine effectiveness largely wanes after 4-5 months. The article merely says Thus, our data indicates that mRNA vaccination may generate more neutralizing RBD antibodies than natural immunity. It makes no mention of how long it lasts. So, it is entirely possible that mRNA vaccine produce more antibodies but they diminish pretty quickly. While, an infection produces fewer antibodies, relatively speaking of course, but they last longer. Yes?

anonygler 5y ago
Which makes the lockdown/mandates even more damning to me. Back when the vaccines were available, California removed the mask mandate and then quickly put it back in place. It seems quite obvious (even at the time) that they should've fully opened and allowed people to take advantage of the strong immunity vaccination provided heading into a summer of mild transmission. People would've received both benefits: strong short term immunity and a natural boost from casual transmission.
- WalterGR 5y ago
  Since this is a new report, we didn’t know its contents back then.
  - anonygler 5y ago
    What wasn't there to know? Locking back down after vaccine availability was moving the goalposts. Hospitals weren't even overwhelmed at the time. The EUA was approved because vaccine efficacy had been clearly demonstrated.
    - morebsfromnat 5y ago
      If you think efficacy was clearly demonstrated you should take a closer look at the actual data from the clinical studies.
    - WalterGR 5y ago
      I don’t remember government officials saying that once vaccines were available we’d end all lockdowns. Could you point me to that?
      - anonygler 5y ago
        https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/world/lockdown-lift-vaccine-coronavirus-lancet-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/world/lockdown-lift-vaccine-c... https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/uk-will-stay-in-lockdown-until-vaccine-is-found-health-minister-says-a4415561.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/uk-will-stay-in-lockd... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-lockdown-uk-vaccine-cure-covid-19-nhs-government-scientists-a9404636.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-lockdo... https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/coronavirus-lockdown-part-of-our-lives-until-vaccine-invented-tripura-cm-biplab-deb-after-covid-19-2221312 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/coronavirus-lockdown-part-of... https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/orange-county-residents-could-be-wearing-masks-until-a-vaccine-is-developed-official-warns https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/orange-county-residents-co... And then the goalposts began to move: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/joe-biden-now-says-americans-should-wear-masks-until-everyone-is-vaccinated/ https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/joe-biden-now-says-ame...
        WalterGR 5y ago
        I read the first four articles. None of them say that the lockdown will be lifted once a vaccine is available. They say that the lockdowns will remain in place until a vaccine is available. Those are not the same thing. Both of us seem pretty dug in: you that goalposts were set and then moved; me that there was always a wait-and-see attitude. I need to move on with my day so I’m going to bow out now.
        anonygler 5y ago
        Ah yes, the old semantics game :).
        5y ago
  - pomdapi 5y ago
    It is not, it has been in preprint for 9 months, based on data from Q1 2021. It's just passed peer-review and been published now. Also, see this comment [1] about the data. Horrendous paper, very manipulative. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30363571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30363571
keltex 5y ago
One of the issues is that we conflate "antibodies" with "immunity". Antibodies are something we can measure so that's why there's been so much emphasis on them. But they do naturally diminish over time. Long term and durable disease immunity comes from B-cells and T-cells. They create antibodies when they run into an infection they've seen or even not seen before. Unfortunately those are difficult to measure. Good recent podcast from Dr. Peter Attia discusses this (How B cells and T cells work together to defend against viruses [22:00]) https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/ https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/
timr 5y ago
> While, an infection produces fewer antibodies, relatively speaking of course, but they last longer. Yes? Antibodies are antibodies. They're all subject to the same fundamental breakdown and clearance mechanisms in the body, and don't really "last longer" based on origin. There's a dosing effect (i.e. a big spike lingers longer than a small one), but the dynamics of the process don't change, so far as we know. As an aside, all of these arguments based on antibody levels/neutralizing titer are extremely reductionist, and we have plenty of clinical data now that is better and more to the point. The immune system is more than antibodies. This debate is pretty facile. It's perhaps interesting to talk about neutralizing ability of antibodies "natural" vs. "vaccine" if you're interested in making a better vaccine, but even then, there are so many versions of "natural" immunity that any general discussion is pointless. Everyone has a different antibody response, and moreover, antibodies are targeted to whatever variant(s) you've seen in the past. Meanwhile, there's exactly one vaccine variant. Broad comparisons are almost impossible.

by yumraj 5y ago

anonygler 5y ago

Which makes the lockdown/mandates even more damning to me. Back when the vaccines were available, California removed the mask mandate and then quickly put it back in place. It seems quite obvious (even at the time) that they should've fully opened and allowed people to take advantage of the strong immunity vaccination provided heading into a summer of mild transmission. People would've received both benefits: strong short term immunity and a natural boost from casual transmission.

WalterGR 5y ago
Since this is a new report, we didn’t know its contents back then.
- anonygler 5y ago
  What wasn't there to know? Locking back down after vaccine availability was moving the goalposts. Hospitals weren't even overwhelmed at the time. The EUA was approved because vaccine efficacy had been clearly demonstrated.
  - morebsfromnat 5y ago
    If you think efficacy was clearly demonstrated you should take a closer look at the actual data from the clinical studies.
  - WalterGR 5y ago
    I don’t remember government officials saying that once vaccines were available we’d end all lockdowns. Could you point me to that?
    - anonygler 5y ago
      https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/world/lockdown-lift-vaccine-coronavirus-lancet-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/world/lockdown-lift-vaccine-c... https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/uk-will-stay-in-lockdown-until-vaccine-is-found-health-minister-says-a4415561.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/uk-will-stay-in-lockd... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-lockdown-uk-vaccine-cure-covid-19-nhs-government-scientists-a9404636.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-lockdo... https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/coronavirus-lockdown-part-of-our-lives-until-vaccine-invented-tripura-cm-biplab-deb-after-covid-19-2221312 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/coronavirus-lockdown-part-of... https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/orange-county-residents-could-be-wearing-masks-until-a-vaccine-is-developed-official-warns https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/orange-county-residents-co... And then the goalposts began to move: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/joe-biden-now-says-americans-should-wear-masks-until-everyone-is-vaccinated/ https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/joe-biden-now-says-ame...
      - WalterGR 5y ago
        I read the first four articles. None of them say that the lockdown will be lifted once a vaccine is available. They say that the lockdowns will remain in place until a vaccine is available. Those are not the same thing. Both of us seem pretty dug in: you that goalposts were set and then moved; me that there was always a wait-and-see attitude. I need to move on with my day so I’m going to bow out now.
        anonygler 5y ago
        Ah yes, the old semantics game :).
        5y ago
- pomdapi 5y ago
  It is not, it has been in preprint for 9 months, based on data from Q1 2021. It's just passed peer-review and been published now. Also, see this comment [1] about the data. Horrendous paper, very manipulative. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30363571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30363571

keltex 5y ago

One of the issues is that we conflate "antibodies" with "immunity". Antibodies are something we can measure so that's why there's been so much emphasis on them. But they do naturally diminish over time. Long term and durable disease immunity comes from B-cells and T-cells. They create antibodies when they run into an infection they've seen or even not seen before. Unfortunately those are difficult to measure. Good recent podcast from Dr. Peter Attia discusses this (How B cells and T cells work together to defend against viruses [22:00]) https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/ https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/

timr 5y ago

> While, an infection produces fewer antibodies, relatively speaking of course, but they last longer. Yes? Antibodies are antibodies. They're all subject to the same fundamental breakdown and clearance mechanisms in the body, and don't really "last longer" based on origin. There's a dosing effect (i.e. a big spike lingers longer than a small one), but the dynamics of the process don't change, so far as we know. As an aside, all of these arguments based on antibody levels/neutralizing titer are extremely reductionist, and we have plenty of clinical data now that is better and more to the point. The immune system is more than antibodies. This debate is pretty facile. It's perhaps interesting to talk about neutralizing ability of antibodies "natural" vs. "vaccine" if you're interested in making a better vaccine, but even then, there are so many versions of "natural" immunity that any general discussion is pointless. Everyone has a different antibody response, and moreover, antibodies are targeted to whatever variant(s) you've seen in the past. Meanwhile, there's exactly one vaccine variant. Broad comparisons are almost impossible.