4 ms·

mRNA vaccine-induced antibodies more effective than natural immunity vs. Covid

53 points by WalterGR 5y ago

WalterGR 5y ago
Title shortened to fit character limit.
- peteradio 5y ago
  Covid != SARS-CoV-2 Covid is the disease and this study does not address disease directly.
  - WalterGR 5y ago
    Alas, the character limit is small and the study title long. I’m still in the window where I can edit the title (though it’s closing rapidly) so I’m interested in your suggestions.
anonygler 5y ago
Worth noting that plenty of studies demonstrate the exact opposite: Natural Immunity is superior and durable. Vaccine effectiveness largely wanes after 4-5 months. Even the CDC has acknowledged this. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7107e2.htm?s_cid=mm7107e2_w https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7107e2.htm?s_cid=mm...
- dijonman2 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- skyde 5y ago
  to be fair this new study seem to be better designed.
  - morebsfromnat 5y ago
    All this study has shown is that lots of very specific antibodies are produced via vaccination. We already know those antibodies aren't very robust (targeting just a few epitopes on the spike protein). Naturally produced antibodies, however, are robust and target epitopes across multiple proteins including the spike protein. Additionally, this study isn't looking at any other aspect of our immune system, only antibody levels. We already know antibodies aren't the end-all-be-all of immunity. It also isn't differentiating between IgG, IgM, or IgA antibodies. If you want to prevent infection, you'll need IgA antibodies and the mRNA vaccines are incapable of producing any of those.
    - cromwellian 5y ago
      This study says otherwise https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34133415/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34133415/
      - throttledagain2 5y ago
- yumraj 5y ago
  > Vaccine effectiveness largely wanes after 4-5 months. The article merely says Thus, our data indicates that mRNA vaccination may generate more neutralizing RBD antibodies than natural immunity. It makes no mention of how long it lasts. So, it is entirely possible that mRNA vaccine produce more antibodies but they diminish pretty quickly. While, an infection produces fewer antibodies, relatively speaking of course, but they last longer. Yes?
  - anonygler 5y ago
    Which makes the lockdown/mandates even more damning to me. Back when the vaccines were available, California removed the mask mandate and then quickly put it back in place. It seems quite obvious (even at the time) that they should've fully opened and allowed people to take advantage of the strong immunity vaccination provided heading into a summer of mild transmission. People would've received both benefits: strong short term immunity and a natural boost from casual transmission.
    - WalterGR 5y ago
      Since this is a new report, we didn’t know its contents back then.
      - anonygler 5y ago
        What wasn't there to know? Locking back down after vaccine availability was moving the goalposts. Hospitals weren't even overwhelmed at the time. The EUA was approved because vaccine efficacy had been clearly demonstrated.
        morebsfromnat 5y ago
        If you think efficacy was clearly demonstrated you should take a closer look at the actual data from the clinical studies.
        WalterGR 5y ago
        I don’t remember government officials saying that once vaccines were available we’d end all lockdowns. Could you point me to that?
- tandymodel100 5y ago
- timr 5y ago
  This study is also pretty old, despite being "published" now. It was originally submitted in June of 2021, and discusses the N501Y (presumably V1, given the timing) variant, which is no longer relevant. Worse, the vaccinated samples were all gathered by mid-March 2021, and except for three people, all were gathered within 40 days of vaccination. But the median time from symptoms for those who were previously infected was over two hundred days. This difference alone hopelessly confounds any stated conclusion, yet they've buried this essential information in the supplemental materials (ST1 & 2). This paper is bad.
- beerandt 5y ago
  Yea, if this is like the many other similar studies, they are restricting the antibodies counted to the ones specifically made to match the spike protein. Natural immunity makes less for the spike, but more overall, both in breadth of type and total number. Artificially limiting the count to one type of antibody is like claiming to be richer than Warren Buffet because you have more cash in your wallet than him in line at McDonalds, and ignoring the fact that your wallet contains your total net wealth.
- Brian_K_White 5y ago
  I think the phrase "vaccine effectiveness" is almost meaningless now because there is not just one kind of vaccine with just one set of properties. You can't even say simply that one vaccine is better or worse or than another because now you have to say better or worse at what exactly.
- cultofmetatron 5y ago
  so basically the best approach is to get the vaccine, wait a few days then get exposed to actual covid if you want maximum immunity without dying?
torstenvl 5y ago
The antibodies may be more effective, but they're less enduring. "Hence, the data suggests that the antibody levels of convalescent sera did not decline significantly for 8 months post infections, whereas the ultrahigh RBD antibody levels achieved with mRNA vaccines could be subject to a more rapid decline." It's hard to say, on balance, that the effect of an individual being vaccinated on public health is significantly greater than the effect of an individual previously having COVID-19 and fully recovering. Perhaps someone with a better understanding of the field could help draw reasonable conclusions?
- skyde 5y ago
  well I think you summarize it pretty well already. Vaccine give more protection but for a shorter period of time.
  - morebsfromnat 5y ago
    All this study has shown is that lots of very specific antibodies are produced via vaccination. We already know those antibodies aren't very robust (targeting just a few epitopes on the spike protein). Naturally produced antibodies, however, are robust and target epitopes across multiple proteins including the spike protein. Additionally, this study isn't looking at any other aspect of our immune system, only antibody levels. We already know antibodies aren't the end-all-be-all of immunity.
peteradio 5y ago
*For raising particular antibodies above an ungodly high threshold, not better at actually preventing hospitalization/death.
osipov 5y ago
morebsfromnat 5y ago
Not mentioned in this study is that mRNA vaccination produces zero IgA antibodies. For an airborne respiratory illness, IgA antibodies are your first line of defense. Naturally immune folk get tons of IgA antibodies protecting them from covid. mRNA vaxxers get none. This is why the vaccine offers no protection against infection.
- cromwellian 5y ago
  Nope. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34133415/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34133415/ “The data demonstrate COVID-19 mRNA vaccines effectively induce spike antigen specific IgG and IgA and highlight marked differences in their persistence in serum.“
  - throttledagain2 5y ago
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Thanks, I couldn't remember where I had seen the opposite of what they were claiming :)
gamblor956 5y ago
Anecdata: everyone in my circle that had Pfizer or Moderna got Omnicron. Those of us who had J&J (and the two idiots who were never vaccinated and got Delta) did not, despite many hours indoors with the omnis. Some studies suggest that J&J triggers a similar immunity as an infection, and so was more effective against omnicron, but as J&J has become a disavowed vaccines there aren't many studies on it anymore.
- morebsfromnat 5y ago
  > and the two idiots who were never vaccinated Why does this make them idiots? Maybe they reviewed the trial data and observed the increased all-cause mortality in the vaccinated group, looked at the history of rushed vaccines, looked at the list of unknowns regarding mRNA technology, and decided "no thanks". Indeed, hindsight is proving those "idiots" to be quite the opposite.
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    All cause mortality is lower in the vaccinated group. https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20211025/people-vacccinated-covid-less-likely-die-any-cause-study https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/2021102... Deaths in the trial were at a rate consistent with the normal mortality rate for people with their background. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pfizer-health-concerns-idUSKBN28K2R6 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pfizer-health-c...
    - hajile 5y ago
      The data isn’t in yet. In tone age brackets, myocarditis rates are very High. Accounting for 1% average reporting rates and the possibility for undiagnosed cases, the long term survival rate for unvaccinated young people could be higher. There are also concerns about the effects of lipid nanoparticles. They spread Throughout the body (pfizer flatly lied about them staying in the muscle tissue) and no long term study about them was done by pfizer or moderna. Other studies on the topic show them to be extremely harmful and even lethal in animals. It seems like each shot just builds up more in your system too.
cashsterling 5y ago
The obsessive focus on neutralizing antibodies in blood samples is beginning to border on irresponsible. Circulating antibodies are one facet of the layered immune system response. Mucosal membrane antibodies and T-cells (mucosal membranes have their own 'micro-immune system' which injected vaccines do little to help), general T-cells, etc are extremely important in overall immune system response. One could argue that mucosal immune system health and then T-cell response are more important than blood antibody levels. Also general inflammation in the body, endocrine system health, and immune system modulation are important factors affecting COVID outcomes. I think there has not been near enough attention on these factors.
disambiguation 5y ago
How many times are we going to go over this? > There was a difference in the antibody levels from samples taken within 2 months and at 6 months post second dose where the 6 months antibody levels were sharply lower > In contrast, convalescent sera did not exhibit a correlative between time and antibody levels > Hence, the data suggests that the antibody levels of convalescent sera did not decline significantly for 8 months post infections, whereas the ultrahigh RBD antibody levels achieved with mRNA vaccines could be subject to a more rapid decline. > there was no trend of decreasing RBD antibodies in those with natural immunity for up to 9 months in our dataset. > In comparison, while mRNA vaccines resulted in much higher RBD antibody levels than natural infections, this hyper-elevated level appeared to be less stable with samples at 6 months past the second dose. While our work is still very preliminary, there is a recent study observing similar rapid decline in RBD antibody within 6 months of BNT162b2 vaccine Just legalize natural immunity already, this is ridiculous.
nikolay 5y ago
Another case of "a study finds"? That's beyond BS, sorry.

53 points by WalterGR 5y ago

WalterGR 5y ago

Title shortened to fit character limit.

peteradio 5y ago
Covid != SARS-CoV-2 Covid is the disease and this study does not address disease directly.
- WalterGR 5y ago
  Alas, the character limit is small and the study title long. I’m still in the window where I can edit the title (though it’s closing rapidly) so I’m interested in your suggestions.

anonygler 5y ago

Worth noting that plenty of studies demonstrate the exact opposite: Natural Immunity is superior and durable. Vaccine effectiveness largely wanes after 4-5 months. Even the CDC has acknowledged this. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7107e2.htm?s_cid=mm7107e2_w https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7107e2.htm?s_cid=mm...

dijonman2 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
skyde 5y ago
to be fair this new study seem to be better designed.
- morebsfromnat 5y ago
  All this study has shown is that lots of very specific antibodies are produced via vaccination. We already know those antibodies aren't very robust (targeting just a few epitopes on the spike protein). Naturally produced antibodies, however, are robust and target epitopes across multiple proteins including the spike protein. Additionally, this study isn't looking at any other aspect of our immune system, only antibody levels. We already know antibodies aren't the end-all-be-all of immunity. It also isn't differentiating between IgG, IgM, or IgA antibodies. If you want to prevent infection, you'll need IgA antibodies and the mRNA vaccines are incapable of producing any of those.
  - cromwellian 5y ago
    This study says otherwise https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34133415/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34133415/
    - throttledagain2 5y ago
yumraj 5y ago
> Vaccine effectiveness largely wanes after 4-5 months. The article merely says Thus, our data indicates that mRNA vaccination may generate more neutralizing RBD antibodies than natural immunity. It makes no mention of how long it lasts. So, it is entirely possible that mRNA vaccine produce more antibodies but they diminish pretty quickly. While, an infection produces fewer antibodies, relatively speaking of course, but they last longer. Yes?
- anonygler 5y ago
  Which makes the lockdown/mandates even more damning to me. Back when the vaccines were available, California removed the mask mandate and then quickly put it back in place. It seems quite obvious (even at the time) that they should've fully opened and allowed people to take advantage of the strong immunity vaccination provided heading into a summer of mild transmission. People would've received both benefits: strong short term immunity and a natural boost from casual transmission.
  - WalterGR 5y ago
    Since this is a new report, we didn’t know its contents back then.
    - anonygler 5y ago
      What wasn't there to know? Locking back down after vaccine availability was moving the goalposts. Hospitals weren't even overwhelmed at the time. The EUA was approved because vaccine efficacy had been clearly demonstrated.
      - morebsfromnat 5y ago
        If you think efficacy was clearly demonstrated you should take a closer look at the actual data from the clinical studies.
      - WalterGR 5y ago
        I don’t remember government officials saying that once vaccines were available we’d end all lockdowns. Could you point me to that?
tandymodel100 5y ago
timr 5y ago
This study is also pretty old, despite being "published" now. It was originally submitted in June of 2021, and discusses the N501Y (presumably V1, given the timing) variant, which is no longer relevant. Worse, the vaccinated samples were all gathered by mid-March 2021, and except for three people, all were gathered within 40 days of vaccination. But the median time from symptoms for those who were previously infected was over two hundred days. This difference alone hopelessly confounds any stated conclusion, yet they've buried this essential information in the supplemental materials (ST1 & 2). This paper is bad.
beerandt 5y ago
Yea, if this is like the many other similar studies, they are restricting the antibodies counted to the ones specifically made to match the spike protein. Natural immunity makes less for the spike, but more overall, both in breadth of type and total number. Artificially limiting the count to one type of antibody is like claiming to be richer than Warren Buffet because you have more cash in your wallet than him in line at McDonalds, and ignoring the fact that your wallet contains your total net wealth.
Brian_K_White 5y ago
I think the phrase "vaccine effectiveness" is almost meaningless now because there is not just one kind of vaccine with just one set of properties. You can't even say simply that one vaccine is better or worse or than another because now you have to say better or worse at what exactly.
cultofmetatron 5y ago
so basically the best approach is to get the vaccine, wait a few days then get exposed to actual covid if you want maximum immunity without dying?

torstenvl 5y ago

The antibodies may be more effective, but they're less enduring. "Hence, the data suggests that the antibody levels of convalescent sera did not decline significantly for 8 months post infections, whereas the ultrahigh RBD antibody levels achieved with mRNA vaccines could be subject to a more rapid decline." It's hard to say, on balance, that the effect of an individual being vaccinated on public health is significantly greater than the effect of an individual previously having COVID-19 and fully recovering. Perhaps someone with a better understanding of the field could help draw reasonable conclusions?

skyde 5y ago
well I think you summarize it pretty well already. Vaccine give more protection but for a shorter period of time.
- morebsfromnat 5y ago
  All this study has shown is that lots of very specific antibodies are produced via vaccination. We already know those antibodies aren't very robust (targeting just a few epitopes on the spike protein). Naturally produced antibodies, however, are robust and target epitopes across multiple proteins including the spike protein. Additionally, this study isn't looking at any other aspect of our immune system, only antibody levels. We already know antibodies aren't the end-all-be-all of immunity.

peteradio 5y ago

*For raising particular antibodies above an ungodly high threshold, not better at actually preventing hospitalization/death.

osipov 5y ago

morebsfromnat 5y ago

Not mentioned in this study is that mRNA vaccination produces zero IgA antibodies. For an airborne respiratory illness, IgA antibodies are your first line of defense. Naturally immune folk get tons of IgA antibodies protecting them from covid. mRNA vaxxers get none. This is why the vaccine offers no protection against infection.

cromwellian 5y ago
Nope. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34133415/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34133415/ “The data demonstrate COVID-19 mRNA vaccines effectively induce spike antigen specific IgG and IgA and highlight marked differences in their persistence in serum.“
- throttledagain2 5y ago
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Thanks, I couldn't remember where I had seen the opposite of what they were claiming :)

gamblor956 5y ago

Anecdata: everyone in my circle that had Pfizer or Moderna got Omnicron. Those of us who had J&J (and the two idiots who were never vaccinated and got Delta) did not, despite many hours indoors with the omnis. Some studies suggest that J&J triggers a similar immunity as an infection, and so was more effective against omnicron, but as J&J has become a disavowed vaccines there aren't many studies on it anymore.

morebsfromnat 5y ago
> and the two idiots who were never vaccinated Why does this make them idiots? Maybe they reviewed the trial data and observed the increased all-cause mortality in the vaccinated group, looked at the history of rushed vaccines, looked at the list of unknowns regarding mRNA technology, and decided "no thanks". Indeed, hindsight is proving those "idiots" to be quite the opposite.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  All cause mortality is lower in the vaccinated group. https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20211025/people-vacccinated-covid-less-likely-die-any-cause-study https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/2021102... Deaths in the trial were at a rate consistent with the normal mortality rate for people with their background. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pfizer-health-concerns-idUSKBN28K2R6 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pfizer-health-c...
  - hajile 5y ago
    The data isn’t in yet. In tone age brackets, myocarditis rates are very High. Accounting for 1% average reporting rates and the possibility for undiagnosed cases, the long term survival rate for unvaccinated young people could be higher. There are also concerns about the effects of lipid nanoparticles. They spread Throughout the body (pfizer flatly lied about them staying in the muscle tissue) and no long term study about them was done by pfizer or moderna. Other studies on the topic show them to be extremely harmful and even lethal in animals. It seems like each shot just builds up more in your system too.

cashsterling 5y ago

The obsessive focus on neutralizing antibodies in blood samples is beginning to border on irresponsible. Circulating antibodies are one facet of the layered immune system response. Mucosal membrane antibodies and T-cells (mucosal membranes have their own 'micro-immune system' which injected vaccines do little to help), general T-cells, etc are extremely important in overall immune system response. One could argue that mucosal immune system health and then T-cell response are more important than blood antibody levels. Also general inflammation in the body, endocrine system health, and immune system modulation are important factors affecting COVID outcomes. I think there has not been near enough attention on these factors.

disambiguation 5y ago

How many times are we going to go over this? > There was a difference in the antibody levels from samples taken within 2 months and at 6 months post second dose where the 6 months antibody levels were sharply lower > In contrast, convalescent sera did not exhibit a correlative between time and antibody levels > Hence, the data suggests that the antibody levels of convalescent sera did not decline significantly for 8 months post infections, whereas the ultrahigh RBD antibody levels achieved with mRNA vaccines could be subject to a more rapid decline. > there was no trend of decreasing RBD antibodies in those with natural immunity for up to 9 months in our dataset. > In comparison, while mRNA vaccines resulted in much higher RBD antibody levels than natural infections, this hyper-elevated level appeared to be less stable with samples at 6 months past the second dose. While our work is still very preliminary, there is a recent study observing similar rapid decline in RBD antibody within 6 months of BNT162b2 vaccine Just legalize natural immunity already, this is ridiculous.

nikolay 5y ago

Another case of "a study finds"? That's beyond BS, sorry.