7 ms·

To paraphrase my brilliant cofounder, mentor and tough sparring partner: "The biggest lie you techies tell to yourselves is 'Build it and they will come'. Nope

To paraphrase my brilliant cofounder, mentor and tough sparring partner: "The biggest lie you techies tell to yourselves is 'Build it and they will come'. Nope. Nobody ever comes by. I've beaten competitors with the better product again and again. Know why? Because marketing builds growth, growth builds revenue and revenue enables hiring brilliant people to fix your product, all the while the brilliant product people are still waiting for customers." Let's say I've have been having kicked my ass more than I can count on some beliefs I've had, but I yet have to regret working with him.

Softcadbury 5y ago
Guys, you learned nothing ! You are the top comment on HN, you should share the link to your project :)
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Remember the ABCs A - Always B - Be C - Selling That is, seize the opportunities of presenting your work and your company.
  - eej71 5y ago
    I'll be that guy. Actually it's Always Be Closing. Obligatory Glenngary Glen Ross scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7y6EOGY87U&t=104s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7y6EOGY87U&t=104s
    - faeyanpiraat 5y ago
      Watch it from the beginning, its great
    - raverbashing 5y ago
      Yes ;) But in the context, selling makes more sense than closing.
    - marginalia_nu 5y ago
      It actually depends on if you are using ecclesiastical marketing mnemonics (soft c like in contemporary Italian marketing) or reconstructed classical marketing mnemonics (hard c).
      - roofone 5y ago
        Esoteric Latin joke? HN rules. I find hard c marketing is still more effective in US post/pandemic economy.
        marginalia_nu 5y ago
        Latin makes for some exceptionally esoteric jokes. This, to date, ranks among the funniest shit I have seen on the Internet: https://imgur.com/pztVEyh https://imgur.com/pztVEyh I'm sure there are dozens of people who agree.
        ta_123_43323 5y ago
    - nkrisc 5y ago
      Of course, but it’s funnier and more memorable when it’s wrong.
    - bentobean 5y ago
      Actually, it’s “Always be cobbling.” https://youtu.be/J_vSirIJEsY https://youtu.be/J_vSirIJEsY
    - swalsh 5y ago
      Depends on your product. If you're radio shack, sure, always be closing. If you're selling me an essential component of my business, and I expect to have a long term relationship with you... concentrate on the relationship and trust. I worked for a small startup that won a HUGE contract because the big guy stopped supporting them to their satisfaction. We twisted over backwards to support their needs and they liked that.
      - exogenousdata 5y ago
        Agreed with the sentiment that there are different kinds of clients/opportunities and sales cycles. However the idea specifically in ABC is the 'close'. 'Closing' is the act of securing payment from an entity. I've seen a lot of 'sales guys' who talk about how hard they're selling. But ultimately getting the money into your bank account is the real goal. Everything else is derivative.
        jes 5y ago
        Loosely quoting Eli Goldratt, "Until the money is in your bank account and there is no possibility of having to refund it to the customer, you have not made the sale."
        willhinsa 5y ago
        That's literally a plot point in Glengarry Glen Ross. Al Pacino made a sale the night before, but the buyer gets cold feet and wants to back out!
      - mooreds 5y ago
        Hah, we're living that right now. Big guy got bought, raised prices and removed features. Previously happy customers start looking around, find us (and others, of course). Over the top support and flexibility are things smallcos can offer to outcompete bigcos with more $$$ and people.
    - marcosdumay 5y ago
      It's a usual joke, based on the fact that "always be closing" is horrible advice.
      - sanedigital 5y ago
        It's not. It's a reminder that all of your sales and marketing efforts are wasted if you're not actually pushing towards a sale. Calls to action, follow ups, using funnels—all of these are things that increase an individual's likelihood to close. That's "ABC".
        marcosdumay 5y ago
        Try to close too early and any sensible customer will run away and never talk to you again. "Always" be closing includes too early as well as too late, after the client has run away and you will gain nothing except to alienate him further.
        sanedigital 5y ago
        Yes, a three-letter acronym is incapable of expressing every nuance of a complex interpersonal dance. ABC is about sales and marketing driving towards the close. It doesn't mean you turn a cold call into "Hi, my name is James, buy my product. This is what it does. Buy it. Do you want to know more? Buy it first."
      - ethbr0 5y ago
        It's "closing" because, from memory, they're selling junk real estate. In the US, the end of a real estate transaction is called closing, beyond which it's (mostly) irrevocable. Hence Baldwin is effectively saying "get to the end of the transaction."
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- themanmaran 5y ago
  Noo! And it's too late to edit the comment. https://rysolv.com/ https://rysolv.com/
  - dang 5y ago
    I've added it for you. Let me know at hn@ycombinator.com if you changed your mind.
trhway 5y ago
Building MVP and finding and tuning your market fit early - those Lean Startup ideas were popular here 10 years ago. The money flood of the recent years seems to allow that 'Build it and they will come' as well as just bulldozing your way into market.
- rozenmd 5y ago
  Nah there's more nuance to it than that - it's more that customers expect a better featured solution before buying now. It's still an MVP, but the goalposts have shifted as more folks put up "drop your email here if you're interested in uber for dogs!" type pages.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
throw8932894 5y ago
"Build it and they come" works, for example Hotmail and Google did not invest into marketing initially. But it works in non saturated market with a few players.
- sfifs 5y ago
  I'm too young to remember Hotmail launch but GMAIL did market. Their marketing investments were 1. Free Storage an order of magnitude larger that anything anyone provided at that time which was an unbeatable proposition. I'd say they ate the costs of storage as marketing investment. 2. Viral invitation format -> exclusively perception
  - wlesieutre 5y ago
    > Free Storage an order of magnitude larger that anything anyone provided at that time which was an unbeatable proposition Gmail's free storage was two orders of magnitude better than the competition. Nearly three orders of magnitude bigger than Hotmail. They launched with a gigabyte against Hotmail's 2 MB and Yahoo's 6 MB. We're so used to not worrying about email storage anymore that it's easy to forget just how small they used to be.
- snowwrestler 5y ago
  In marketing there’s owned media, earned media, and paid media. Google initially focused on the first two. They promoted new products like Gmail or Chrome on their search home page, and in the press. It worked well for them because they were already a newsworthy company with a lot of web traffic. Today, they work quite hard at all three.
- amelius 5y ago
  Wasn't there a waiting list for Hotmail/Gmail in the beginning?
  - ChrisRR 5y ago
    Gmail users initially had to be invited by existing gmail users. That in itself is marketing.
normac2 5y ago
Is the idea that the product (once it's caught up) will be as good or better (and/or at least reach more people) than the original? Or is he OK with people being worse off than if your company never existed and the better product got to take the lead?
- welfare 5y ago
  Better is a 100% subjective term and there's a huge discrepancy between what engineers believe is a better product and what users/customers do. Our product was and still is technically inferior to competition but we still have an NPS of 9 and are extremely sticky, why? Because of our amazing sales, marketing and customer success teams who've built excellent relationship with the customers.
dang 5y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30343207 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30343207. (There's nothing wrong with it, the subthread just ended up veering offtopic.)
Kye 5y ago
This also works for non-startup stuff. Every new Patreon supporter, every album sale came from talking about it on Twitter or Mastodon. A few have come by way of HN.

Softcadbury 5y ago

Guys, you learned nothing ! You are the top comment on HN, you should share the link to your project :)

raverbashing 5y ago
Remember the ABCs A - Always B - Be C - Selling That is, seize the opportunities of presenting your work and your company.
- eej71 5y ago
  I'll be that guy. Actually it's Always Be Closing. Obligatory Glenngary Glen Ross scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7y6EOGY87U&t=104s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7y6EOGY87U&t=104s
  - faeyanpiraat 5y ago
    Watch it from the beginning, its great
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    Yes ;) But in the context, selling makes more sense than closing.
  - marginalia_nu 5y ago
    It actually depends on if you are using ecclesiastical marketing mnemonics (soft c like in contemporary Italian marketing) or reconstructed classical marketing mnemonics (hard c).
    - roofone 5y ago
      Esoteric Latin joke? HN rules. I find hard c marketing is still more effective in US post/pandemic economy.
      - marginalia_nu 5y ago
        Latin makes for some exceptionally esoteric jokes. This, to date, ranks among the funniest shit I have seen on the Internet: https://imgur.com/pztVEyh https://imgur.com/pztVEyh I'm sure there are dozens of people who agree.
        ta_123_43323 5y ago
  - nkrisc 5y ago
    Of course, but it’s funnier and more memorable when it’s wrong.
  - bentobean 5y ago
    Actually, it’s “Always be cobbling.” https://youtu.be/J_vSirIJEsY https://youtu.be/J_vSirIJEsY
  - swalsh 5y ago
    Depends on your product. If you're radio shack, sure, always be closing. If you're selling me an essential component of my business, and I expect to have a long term relationship with you... concentrate on the relationship and trust. I worked for a small startup that won a HUGE contract because the big guy stopped supporting them to their satisfaction. We twisted over backwards to support their needs and they liked that.
    - exogenousdata 5y ago
      Agreed with the sentiment that there are different kinds of clients/opportunities and sales cycles. However the idea specifically in ABC is the 'close'. 'Closing' is the act of securing payment from an entity. I've seen a lot of 'sales guys' who talk about how hard they're selling. But ultimately getting the money into your bank account is the real goal. Everything else is derivative.
      - jes 5y ago
        Loosely quoting Eli Goldratt, "Until the money is in your bank account and there is no possibility of having to refund it to the customer, you have not made the sale."
        willhinsa 5y ago
        That's literally a plot point in Glengarry Glen Ross. Al Pacino made a sale the night before, but the buyer gets cold feet and wants to back out!
    - mooreds 5y ago
      Hah, we're living that right now. Big guy got bought, raised prices and removed features. Previously happy customers start looking around, find us (and others, of course). Over the top support and flexibility are things smallcos can offer to outcompete bigcos with more $$$ and people.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    It's a usual joke, based on the fact that "always be closing" is horrible advice.
    - sanedigital 5y ago
      It's not. It's a reminder that all of your sales and marketing efforts are wasted if you're not actually pushing towards a sale. Calls to action, follow ups, using funnels—all of these are things that increase an individual's likelihood to close. That's "ABC".
      - marcosdumay 5y ago
        Try to close too early and any sensible customer will run away and never talk to you again. "Always" be closing includes too early as well as too late, after the client has run away and you will gain nothing except to alienate him further.
        sanedigital 5y ago
        Yes, a three-letter acronym is incapable of expressing every nuance of a complex interpersonal dance. ABC is about sales and marketing driving towards the close. It doesn't mean you turn a cold call into "Hi, my name is James, buy my product. This is what it does. Buy it. Do you want to know more? Buy it first."
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      It's "closing" because, from memory, they're selling junk real estate. In the US, the end of a real estate transaction is called closing, beyond which it's (mostly) irrevocable. Hence Baldwin is effectively saying "get to the end of the transaction."
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
themanmaran 5y ago
Noo! And it's too late to edit the comment. https://rysolv.com/ https://rysolv.com/
- dang 5y ago
  I've added it for you. Let me know at hn@ycombinator.com if you changed your mind.

trhway 5y ago

Building MVP and finding and tuning your market fit early - those Lean Startup ideas were popular here 10 years ago. The money flood of the recent years seems to allow that 'Build it and they will come' as well as just bulldozing your way into market.

rozenmd 5y ago
Nah there's more nuance to it than that - it's more that customers expect a better featured solution before buying now. It's still an MVP, but the goalposts have shifted as more folks put up "drop your email here if you're interested in uber for dogs!" type pages.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

throw8932894 5y ago

"Build it and they come" works, for example Hotmail and Google did not invest into marketing initially. But it works in non saturated market with a few players.

sfifs 5y ago
I'm too young to remember Hotmail launch but GMAIL did market. Their marketing investments were 1. Free Storage an order of magnitude larger that anything anyone provided at that time which was an unbeatable proposition. I'd say they ate the costs of storage as marketing investment. 2. Viral invitation format -> exclusively perception
- wlesieutre 5y ago
  > Free Storage an order of magnitude larger that anything anyone provided at that time which was an unbeatable proposition Gmail's free storage was two orders of magnitude better than the competition. Nearly three orders of magnitude bigger than Hotmail. They launched with a gigabyte against Hotmail's 2 MB and Yahoo's 6 MB. We're so used to not worrying about email storage anymore that it's easy to forget just how small they used to be.
snowwrestler 5y ago
In marketing there’s owned media, earned media, and paid media. Google initially focused on the first two. They promoted new products like Gmail or Chrome on their search home page, and in the press. It worked well for them because they were already a newsworthy company with a lot of web traffic. Today, they work quite hard at all three.
amelius 5y ago
Wasn't there a waiting list for Hotmail/Gmail in the beginning?
- ChrisRR 5y ago
  Gmail users initially had to be invited by existing gmail users. That in itself is marketing.

normac2 5y ago

Is the idea that the product (once it's caught up) will be as good or better (and/or at least reach more people) than the original? Or is he OK with people being worse off than if your company never existed and the better product got to take the lead?

welfare 5y ago
Better is a 100% subjective term and there's a huge discrepancy between what engineers believe is a better product and what users/customers do. Our product was and still is technically inferior to competition but we still have an NPS of 9 and are extremely sticky, why? Because of our amazing sales, marketing and customer success teams who've built excellent relationship with the customers.

dang 5y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30343207 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30343207. (There's nothing wrong with it, the subthread just ended up veering offtopic.)

Kye 5y ago

This also works for non-startup stuff. Every new Patreon supporter, every album sale came from talking about it on Twitter or Mastodon. A few have come by way of HN.