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>The Canadian people are overwhelmingly vaccinated and don't mind wearing masks. 90+% of truckers are fully vaccinated. Then why require the mandate? I haven't

by daenz 5y ago

>The Canadian people are overwhelmingly vaccinated and don't mind wearing masks. 90+% of truckers are fully vaccinated. Then why require the mandate? I haven't seen any answer to that question besides the implied: "because we demand full compliance."

bawolff 5y ago
Well yes. Vaccines are most effective on a population level.
sailingparrot 5y ago
Because otherwise there is approximately nothing the federal government can do to end the blockade if the protestor don't leave by themselves. No matter if most of the population want it to end. This allows the federal government to send the army if necessary (although Trudeau said they wouldn't), allows the police to fine and detain protestor that do not want to leave the blockade. And allows the federal government to require private companies to provide services, in this case towing companies to tow the rigs. It also allows for freezing bank accounts of e.g. companies that have trucks participating in the blockade without a court mandate. I think, but I am not sure, that this only applies to "strategic sites", in this case the border and maybe highways. Protester blocking a random street in Ottawa may not be concerned. So, why require the mandate: To prevent the slim minority of truckers participating in the blockade from impacting everyone else for months.
- akomtu 5y ago
  A proper answer would be to lift the mandate to vaccinate all truckers, because it doesn't make any sense anyway, give them 2 days to clear the roads, and bring in troops if they refuse. Problem is, Trudeau's ego is too big to yield to a bunch of unwashed truckers.
  - sailingparrot 5y ago
    Except Trudeau lifting the mandate would not change anything since this is also a requirements by the US for truckers to cross. But sure, it's all because of Trudeau's ego. "beginning in early January 2022, DHS will require that all inbound foreign national travelers crossing U.S. land or ferry POEs – whether for essential or non-essential reasons – be fully vaccinated for COVID-19 and provide related proof of vaccination. This approach will provide ample time for essential travelers such as truckers, students, and healthcare workers to get vaccinated." https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/10/12/secretary-mayorkas-allow-fully-vaccinated-travelers-canada-and-mexico-enter-us-land https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/10/12/secretary-mayorkas-allow...
    - b112 5y ago
      Except Trudeau lifting the mandate would not change anything So it causes no harmful change for Canadians in general, for as you say, nothing changes. So... why not give in to this demand then? As an aside, forcing truckers to get vaccinated makes no sense. They mostly work in isolation, and it isn't like blocking the virus at borders really helps these days. I support forced vaccination for front line health care workers, those caring for the elderly, where it matters.
      - staticman2 5y ago
        Laws in a democracy shouldn't be set by whatever minority decides to block streets with heavy equipments. Giving in would set a terrible precedent and would undermine Canada's continued existence as a free society.
epgui 5y ago
Because the few who don’t comply to public health recommendations/orders are responsible for the greater share of the economic burden of disease, and this burden was totally preventable.
- Zanneth 5y ago
  That is not true at all. The greatest burden on the economy was the lockdowns and extreme countermeasures. People choosing not to get vaccinated may have caused unnecessary burden on the healthcare system, but to blame them for the struggling economy is just wrong.
  - epgui 5y ago
    I am a life scientist, and with respect, you're flatly incorrect. The first-order costs of public health measures scale linearly, and the first-order costs of infectious diseases scale exponentially. Higher-order costs are at least comparable between the two, and I would argue much higher in the case of covid than in the case of lockdowns. (This being said, very few governments did lockdowns properly, and therefore almost every half-measure taken was ineffective and wasteful.)
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      As a heads up, your bio still says you are a software engineer at CircleCI.
      - epgui 5y ago
        That I am, but I have 12 years of post secondary education (and research experience) in life science, mostly in biochem.
    - Zanneth 5y ago
      A vast majority of people who contract COVID recover without any treatment. Are you arguing that the minority who don't impose higher costs than locking down the entire country?
jsjsbdkj 5y ago
Do you understand how public health works? The vaccine does not 100% prevent any infection, it reduces the odds and intensity. Some people cannot be vaccinated for legitimate medical reasons. You would think computer people would understand "defense in depth". Meanwhile, anti-vaccine people are single-handedly working to revive diseases that were almost eradicated: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/03/28/anti-vaxxers-open-door-measles-mumps-old-time-diseases/3295390002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/03/28/anti-v...
- ibeckermayer 5y ago
  - jensensbutton 5y ago
- absoluteharam 5y ago
  it sounds like you’re using the post covid-19 definition of Vaccine. It’s amazing that the definition of a word like vaccine could change suddenly, because it is was incompatible to one virus — a mysterious super virus whose origin is still unknown, according to the WHO.
- walkhour 5y ago
  > Do you understand how public health works? Is the science settled on whether 90% vs 100% has an impact on the health of society given omicron? > Meanwhile, anti-vaccine people are single-handedly working to revive diseases that were almost eradicated Conflating traditional anti vaxers with the new COVID anti vaxers is dishonest, they actually usually come from different parts of the political spectrum.
- shinyamagami 5y ago
  Please stay home forever and never get out because some people cannot get vaccinated. No exceptions. I hope those unvaccinated prove scientists right some day. It would take decades.
Tiktaalik 5y ago
Omicron may be "mild" to healthy, vaccinated people, but it's a serious, deadly health threat to the unvaccinated elderly. Accordingly places where transmission is likely (eg. a small intimate restaurant) are serious and potentially deadly health risks to the elderly, unvaccinated part of the population. So long as our hospitals are overwhelmed (as they currently are) it's a very bad idea to open up these high transmission areas to unvaccinated people, as they'll inevitably catch the disease and are so much more likely to end up in the hospital in ICU. This is why restaurants/bars/etc should continue to have vaccine mandates even though so many people are vaccinated. The point isn't to coerce the last 10% into getting vaccinated. It's to protect the hospitals from being overwhelmed by new cases from the unvaccinated.
- b112 5y ago
  This is a strange comment to me. In all provinces, the elderly were the very first to get vaccinated. First. First to get second vaccinations, and for a long time, the only group allowed to even get a third shot. There are no unvaccinated elderly people running around, unless they insist on not being vaccinated. In such cases, that's their choice, and no one should take additional precautions for those opting out. Your last paragraph makes sense, but the rest?!
  - Tiktaalik 5y ago
    There's plenty of unvaccinated elderly getting themselves killed. This article has charts showing deaths/ICU/hospitalized over the last 120 days. The elderly and unvaccinated are particularily impacted. https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/covid-19-in-alberta-788-weekend-cases-1-death-as-omicron-count-grows-to-11-1.5694974 https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/covid-19-in-alberta-788-weekend-... > In such cases, that's their choice, and no one should take additional precautions for those opting out. Yeah it's getting to the point where if stubborn old people want to meet their maker sooner than later, well sure that's their choice and we should let them, but at the moment the hospitals are overwhelmed and this has negative impacts on everyone, as it delays all the other surgeries and other work that the hospital needs to do. I'm fine with lifting vaccine mandates once hospitals are unlikely to get overwhelmed, but it's not at all clear we're at this point yet. Going to be very interesting to see what happens in Alberta and Sask over the next little while as they're lifting the vaccine passports.
YZF 5y ago
I'm pretty sure the decision to require truckers to be vaccinated at the border crossing or quarantine (no, they're not forced to vaccinate) came about around Nov 18th when Delta was ramping up. It's just that the implementation was not immediate. I think it made sense back then to try and figure out ways to generally increase the vaccine coverage. By the way the US has the exact same requirement (so even getting the Canadian Federal government to reverse its position here wouldn't change anything for those truckers). Now with Omicron (for the last few weeks at least) it's clearly not needed any more, but governments move slowly, so it'd take a few more weeks. There's other restrictions that were put in around that timeframe that no longer make sense, like requiring PCR tests, and all those are on their way out. This protest makes no sense except as a way of sowing chaos and seeking to destabilize the country.

by daenz 5y ago

bawolff 5y ago

Well yes. Vaccines are most effective on a population level.

sailingparrot 5y ago

Because otherwise there is approximately nothing the federal government can do to end the blockade if the protestor don't leave by themselves. No matter if most of the population want it to end. This allows the federal government to send the army if necessary (although Trudeau said they wouldn't), allows the police to fine and detain protestor that do not want to leave the blockade. And allows the federal government to require private companies to provide services, in this case towing companies to tow the rigs. It also allows for freezing bank accounts of e.g. companies that have trucks participating in the blockade without a court mandate. I think, but I am not sure, that this only applies to "strategic sites", in this case the border and maybe highways. Protester blocking a random street in Ottawa may not be concerned. So, why require the mandate: To prevent the slim minority of truckers participating in the blockade from impacting everyone else for months.

akomtu 5y ago
A proper answer would be to lift the mandate to vaccinate all truckers, because it doesn't make any sense anyway, give them 2 days to clear the roads, and bring in troops if they refuse. Problem is, Trudeau's ego is too big to yield to a bunch of unwashed truckers.
- sailingparrot 5y ago
  Except Trudeau lifting the mandate would not change anything since this is also a requirements by the US for truckers to cross. But sure, it's all because of Trudeau's ego. "beginning in early January 2022, DHS will require that all inbound foreign national travelers crossing U.S. land or ferry POEs – whether for essential or non-essential reasons – be fully vaccinated for COVID-19 and provide related proof of vaccination. This approach will provide ample time for essential travelers such as truckers, students, and healthcare workers to get vaccinated." https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/10/12/secretary-mayorkas-allow-fully-vaccinated-travelers-canada-and-mexico-enter-us-land https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/10/12/secretary-mayorkas-allow...
  - b112 5y ago
    Except Trudeau lifting the mandate would not change anything So it causes no harmful change for Canadians in general, for as you say, nothing changes. So... why not give in to this demand then? As an aside, forcing truckers to get vaccinated makes no sense. They mostly work in isolation, and it isn't like blocking the virus at borders really helps these days. I support forced vaccination for front line health care workers, those caring for the elderly, where it matters.
    - staticman2 5y ago
      Laws in a democracy shouldn't be set by whatever minority decides to block streets with heavy equipments. Giving in would set a terrible precedent and would undermine Canada's continued existence as a free society.

epgui 5y ago

Because the few who don’t comply to public health recommendations/orders are responsible for the greater share of the economic burden of disease, and this burden was totally preventable.

Zanneth 5y ago
That is not true at all. The greatest burden on the economy was the lockdowns and extreme countermeasures. People choosing not to get vaccinated may have caused unnecessary burden on the healthcare system, but to blame them for the struggling economy is just wrong.
- epgui 5y ago
  I am a life scientist, and with respect, you're flatly incorrect. The first-order costs of public health measures scale linearly, and the first-order costs of infectious diseases scale exponentially. Higher-order costs are at least comparable between the two, and I would argue much higher in the case of covid than in the case of lockdowns. (This being said, very few governments did lockdowns properly, and therefore almost every half-measure taken was ineffective and wasteful.)
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    As a heads up, your bio still says you are a software engineer at CircleCI.
    - epgui 5y ago
      That I am, but I have 12 years of post secondary education (and research experience) in life science, mostly in biochem.
  - Zanneth 5y ago
    A vast majority of people who contract COVID recover without any treatment. Are you arguing that the minority who don't impose higher costs than locking down the entire country?

jsjsbdkj 5y ago

Do you understand how public health works? The vaccine does not 100% prevent any infection, it reduces the odds and intensity. Some people cannot be vaccinated for legitimate medical reasons. You would think computer people would understand "defense in depth". Meanwhile, anti-vaccine people are single-handedly working to revive diseases that were almost eradicated: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/03/28/anti-vaxxers-open-door-measles-mumps-old-time-diseases/3295390002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/03/28/anti-v...

ibeckermayer 5y ago
- jensensbutton 5y ago
absoluteharam 5y ago
it sounds like you’re using the post covid-19 definition of Vaccine. It’s amazing that the definition of a word like vaccine could change suddenly, because it is was incompatible to one virus — a mysterious super virus whose origin is still unknown, according to the WHO.
walkhour 5y ago
> Do you understand how public health works? Is the science settled on whether 90% vs 100% has an impact on the health of society given omicron? > Meanwhile, anti-vaccine people are single-handedly working to revive diseases that were almost eradicated Conflating traditional anti vaxers with the new COVID anti vaxers is dishonest, they actually usually come from different parts of the political spectrum.
shinyamagami 5y ago
Please stay home forever and never get out because some people cannot get vaccinated. No exceptions. I hope those unvaccinated prove scientists right some day. It would take decades.

Tiktaalik 5y ago

Omicron may be "mild" to healthy, vaccinated people, but it's a serious, deadly health threat to the unvaccinated elderly. Accordingly places where transmission is likely (eg. a small intimate restaurant) are serious and potentially deadly health risks to the elderly, unvaccinated part of the population. So long as our hospitals are overwhelmed (as they currently are) it's a very bad idea to open up these high transmission areas to unvaccinated people, as they'll inevitably catch the disease and are so much more likely to end up in the hospital in ICU. This is why restaurants/bars/etc should continue to have vaccine mandates even though so many people are vaccinated. The point isn't to coerce the last 10% into getting vaccinated. It's to protect the hospitals from being overwhelmed by new cases from the unvaccinated.

b112 5y ago
This is a strange comment to me. In all provinces, the elderly were the very first to get vaccinated. First. First to get second vaccinations, and for a long time, the only group allowed to even get a third shot. There are no unvaccinated elderly people running around, unless they insist on not being vaccinated. In such cases, that's their choice, and no one should take additional precautions for those opting out. Your last paragraph makes sense, but the rest?!
- Tiktaalik 5y ago
  There's plenty of unvaccinated elderly getting themselves killed. This article has charts showing deaths/ICU/hospitalized over the last 120 days. The elderly and unvaccinated are particularily impacted. https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/covid-19-in-alberta-788-weekend-cases-1-death-as-omicron-count-grows-to-11-1.5694974 https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/covid-19-in-alberta-788-weekend-... > In such cases, that's their choice, and no one should take additional precautions for those opting out. Yeah it's getting to the point where if stubborn old people want to meet their maker sooner than later, well sure that's their choice and we should let them, but at the moment the hospitals are overwhelmed and this has negative impacts on everyone, as it delays all the other surgeries and other work that the hospital needs to do. I'm fine with lifting vaccine mandates once hospitals are unlikely to get overwhelmed, but it's not at all clear we're at this point yet. Going to be very interesting to see what happens in Alberta and Sask over the next little while as they're lifting the vaccine passports.

YZF 5y ago

I'm pretty sure the decision to require truckers to be vaccinated at the border crossing or quarantine (no, they're not forced to vaccinate) came about around Nov 18th when Delta was ramping up. It's just that the implementation was not immediate. I think it made sense back then to try and figure out ways to generally increase the vaccine coverage. By the way the US has the exact same requirement (so even getting the Canadian Federal government to reverse its position here wouldn't change anything for those truckers). Now with Omicron (for the last few weeks at least) it's clearly not needed any more, but governments move slowly, so it'd take a few more weeks. There's other restrictions that were put in around that timeframe that no longer make sense, like requiring PCR tests, and all those are on their way out. This protest makes no sense except as a way of sowing chaos and seeking to destabilize the country.