13 ms·

Some facts (and a few polls) suggest that the Trucker convoy isn't a broadly popular movement of truckers as much as a well funded tiny minority without broad s

• mmastrac 5y ago
  Yes, and the emergencies act was required because the police in Ottawa were _letting the protesters violate the law with impunity_. There are multiple _legal_, _judicial_ injunctions in place and the police are failing to enforce them. The rule of law is breaking down and that cannot be allowed to happen.
  • rasz 5y ago
    You mean convoy has so little support even Police officers exercised civil disobedience?
    • Tiktaalik 5y ago
      The police are happy to beat up environmentalists and the homeless, but they don't want to beat up their drinking buddies.
  • gotoeleven 5y ago
    They should stick to burning down police stations in minneapolis or whatever.
    • mmastrac 5y ago
      Did those happen in Canada? We are not part of the United States and you cannot compare an event in one country with another. A better and valid comparison would be the Wet'suwet'en protests at Coastal GasLink, or the G20 protests from the 2000s.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  • akomtu 5y ago
• buscoquadnary 5y ago
  > First 90% of Canadian truckers are vaccinated. https://newrepublic.com/article/165341/fox-news-vaccine-cana https://newrepublic.com/article/165341/fox-news-vaccine-cana... My understanding was this was about the mandates and restrictions themselves not about the vaccine. I mean I am vaxxed and oppose vax mandates.
  • swayvil 5y ago
    Around here the only people who wear the mask are the obvious crazies and the ones being forced by the boss. And that second class doffs the rag every chance they get. But I live in the sticks. Social pressure is much lower here compared to the city. In the city. Yeah. The city is rough. All those people crammed together. It changes reality.
    • jonnycoder 5y ago
      Not as much as you think. Just look at the Super Bowl, in LA, and all the celebrities not wearing a mask.
      • swayvil 5y ago
        Maybe that's how it's going to go. Exposed face and unimpeded breathing only for the aristocracy.
  • pas 5y ago
    > oppose vax mandates why? could you explain your stande on other mandates/requirements and what's this vax mandate does that makes it so different? (eg. you need a passport/visa-like thing to enter, you need clothes, if you arrive by car that needs papers and a valid safety profile, you need to use the seatbelt, and so on)
    • x3n0ph3n3 5y ago
      All government mandates are enforced at the barrel of a gun.
• refurb 5y ago
  I’m not sure any of those things matter? - Plenty of vaccinated people against vaccine mandates and other restrictions. Doctors are allowed to be Covid positive and treat patients in BC and QC. But apparently truckers who are Covid negative are a problem? - Foreign money influence is a problem, sure, but businesses? They can’t support a protest? - Last poll I saw (Ipsos) said 1 out of 3 Canadians support the protest. 1 out of 3. That’s HUGE.
  • mmastrac 5y ago
    Only 22% say that the protesters should stay. 3/4 say "go home" [$]: https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-protest-vaccine-mandates-covid-19/ https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-protest-vaccine... [$] the survey option was "go home now, they have made their point"
    • zackees 5y ago
      From their own website: "Survey Methodology: The Angus Reid Institute conducted an online survey from Feb. 11-13, 2022 among a representative randomized sample of 1,622 Canadian adults *WHO ARE MEMBERS OF ANGUS REID FORUM.*" (emphasis mine)
  • tonfreed 5y ago
    1 out of 3 colonists supported the American revolution. It's not wise to stomp on such a large and vocal portion of your population.
    • shakezula 5y ago
      Did you have the same attitude towards the summer 2020 protests in the US?
      • brandonmenc 5y ago
        All that matters is that - generally - the politicians and media opposed to these protests supported the 2020 protests and encouraged people to violate stay-at-home measures at the then-height of the pandemic - pre-vaccine - because they claimed that cause overrode the Covid exposure risk. And they wonder why large swathes of the public find it difficult to trust them.
• Manuel_D 5y ago
  > Evidence suggests that funding for this protest is in large part foreign (IE not from canada) Your sources indicate that the majority of the funding is from Canada. The second largest source is from the US (which doesn't seem out of place, given that cross-border trucking restrictions affect both American and Canadian truckers): > A review of the data shows that some $4.3 million came from Canada, while another $3.6 million originated in the United States, though the United States accounted for the most individual donations. Small donations from dozens of other countries made up a fraction of the total amount raised. > and that most canadian donations are from wealthy business owners, not workers This is true for most causes. Workers don't have much money to donate, and rely on wealthier people sympathetic to their cause.
  • SECProto 5y ago
    > > Evidence suggests that funding for this protest is in large part foreign (IE not from canada) > Your sources indicate that the majority of the funding is from Canada. Note that these two statements don't contradict, and yours is incorrect. There were more individual donors from the US contributing a smaller overall amount (56% of donors giving $3.62 million) compared to Canada (29% of donors, giving $4.31 million)[1]. And the total amount raised was 8.7 million[2]. Summary: A large part of the funding is indeed American. The ever-so-slight majority of the funding is non-Canadian. A majority of the donors were American. [1] https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/status/1493094828531462146 https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/status/14930948285314621... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7wpax/freedom-convoy-givesendgo-donors-leaked https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7wpax/freedom-convoy-givese...
• torstenvl 5y ago
  $7.9mm of ~ $8mm total donations came from the U.S. and Canada. Please don't say things that are flatly untrue.
  • guelo 5y ago
    US is foreign money
  • worik 5y ago
    > $7.9mm of $8mm total donations came from the U.S. and Canada. Please don't say things that are flatly untrue. Where is your evidence of that?
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • Manuel_D 5y ago
      The New York Times article linked by the parent comment said so: > Leaked data said to be from the GiveSendGo crowdfunding platform, posted last night to a now-defunct web page by anonymous hackers, lists records of more than 92,000 donations totaling more than $8 million. A review of the data shows that some $4.3 million came from Canada, while another $3.6 million originated in the United States, though the United States accounted for the most individual donations. Small donations from dozens of other countries made up a fraction of the total amount raised.
  • typon 5y ago
    How is the US not a foreign country?
    • torstenvl 5y ago
      The U.S. is exactly as foreign to U.S.-Canada border policy as Canada is. Do you also think Governor Whitmer was meddling in "foreign" affairs when she spoke up?
• naasking 5y ago
  This is deceptive. It's not supported by a majority of Canadians, but their message was still supported by almost half of Canadians at the outset, and is still supported by a third. When a third of your population speaks, you should listen if you're a representative democracy.
  • sokoloff 5y ago
    You should listen to the one-third, but you also should listen to the two-thirds and weigh their opinion appropriately more heavily.
    • annexrichmond 5y ago
      depending on how the survey was asked, just because 1/3 supports X it does not necessarily follow that 2/3 are against X
      • rasz 5y ago
        Funny you said that, because it just so happens that in last two election "2/3 were against Justin Trudeau" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_federal_election
    • danielvaughn 5y ago
      Apply this to any other minority and tell me how it reads.
      • Ensorceled 5y ago
        This is a matter of policy; not race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, marital status, family status, genetic characteristics, or disability all of which are well protected by the Canadian Bill of Rights. Please don't try to conflate vaccination policy to the level of human rights.
• LAC-Tech 5y ago
  First 90% of Canadian truckers are vaccinated. I'm not sure why people think getting vaccinated is evidence of support for mandatory vaccinations. Taxes are mandatory too, I pay them not because I think they're at the right level and used for the right things, but because of the practical repercussions of what would happen if I didn't and I got found out. (it shouldn't matter, but - I'm double vaccinated, mainly because the jurisdiction I live in requires it for air travel. I have no strong feelings about vaccines either way).
• belval 5y ago
  I don't support the convoy, but this still makes me extremely uncomfortable. This is an actual extreme measure. When his father used it, he JAILED communists and "suspected terrorists" in Montreal for more than 24 hours without any evidence, effectively suppressing their rights. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis > police officials sometimes abused their powers without just cause, and some prominent artists and intellectuals associated with the sovereignty movement were detained. And to all the comments saying Canadians are supporting this move, they also supported it back in 1970. It's when they saw the consequences and that they actually understood how wrong it was that popular support dropped.
  • pkd 5y ago
    His father used the War Measures Act. This act was enacted to chisel down the powers of the WMA and has never been used since it was enacted.
    • IainIreland 5y ago
      As a Canadian: this response should not be downvoted. It is correct and important. The War Measures Act used during the October Crisis was a different law; the Emergencies Act, which was just invoked, was passed as a response to concerns about civil liberties and abuse of power under the WMA. Temporary laws made under the Emergencies Act are, unlike the WMA, subject to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. More information on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergencies_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergencies_Act
      • SECProto 5y ago
        Subject to the charter, subject to the bill of rights, subject to parliamentary review, and mandatory public inquiry afterwards. It's a very sensible law.
      • belval 5y ago
        Laws made under the act are subject to the charter unless they invoke the non-withstanding clause. Furthermore, have you read the link you sent? The entire "Provisions" explains while this is way out of line to deal with protesters in Ottawa. Using it for "Public Order" as Trudeau is doing, was meant to be a tool against: "The Act references the definition provided in the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act, which includes espionage, sabotage, detrimental foreign influences, activities which support the threat or use of violence for a political, religious or ideological objective; or those activities which threaten to undermine or otherwise destroy, or overthrow the Government of Canada."
• annexrichmond 5y ago
• 0xy 5y ago
  Let's see where your data comes from. Ah, COVID-19 Monitor, which gets it from Vox Pop Labs. [1] >The data presented herein are derived from survey data produced using Vox Pop Labs' online public affairs panel So, it's useless... their primary method of polling is journalists interviewing people that they select? The people that do not support mandates generally do not support journalists, making this survey utterly useless and biased from the start. If you look at a reputable pollster, and not a couple of ideologues sitting in a room, you'll find large swathes of populations that are very skeptical of mandates, even in very liberal Europe. [2] In Germany, a whopping 62% are against it. While in France, it's 75% against. [1] https://covid19monitor.org/ https://covid19monitor.org/ [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/02/03/as-pandemic-continues-more-in-u-s-and-europe-feel-major-impact-on-their-lives/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/02/03/as-pandemic-co...
  • tomjakubowski 5y ago
    The pew survey you linked is from February of last year, before vaccines were available and before their extreme effectiveness in preventing serious illness was known. Have they done more recent surveys in those countries you mentioned? More to the point, have they surveyed Canada recently? France is well known as a vaccine hesitant country for what it's worth.
• young_unixer 5y ago
  > 90% of Canadian truckers are vaccinated That's irrelevant. The protest is not against vaccines. I'm fully vaccinated and have voluntarily received my booster shot, and I would support the convoy if I was Canadian. I also support vaccination and want the highest amount of people to be vaccinated. There's no contradiction there. I want people to get vaccinated, I just don't want people to be forced to get vaccinated. > Evidence suggests that funding for this protest is in large part foreign The news has spread to the world and it's currently the most notable example of government vs. anti-mandate disputes. > most canadian donations are from wealthy business owners, Most donations, in general, are almost always from wealthy people, for the very obvious reason that they have more money to donate.
• sacrosancty 5y ago
  Handy hint for arguing on the internet. All your sources, with the possible exception of cp24.com are openly politically biased in the direction of your argument. There's no use using them to persuade anyone. Using sources whose bias is opposite to what they're showing is much more powerful.
• partiallypro 5y ago
  You can be vaccinated and not support government mandates of vaccines. I don't get why people can't comprehend this. Trudeau's handling of the convoy is not popular, and he's underwater himself on approval rating (despite previously being fairly popular.) The polling on the protests ranges from 44% to 25%, that's not a majority but it's not a number you can just ignore. Foreign money floods into the US for movements that happen here via GoFundMe, etc, and I've never really heard it as a complaint or something the government actively has said they would freeze.
  • sleepingadmin 5y ago
    • abstract_put 5y ago
      > very few people have gone to get 'boosted' According to https://covid19tracker.ca/vaccinationtracker.html https://covid19tracker.ca/vaccinationtracker.html, ~43% of eligible Canadians have a booster/3rd dose. > Most people have realized the covid shots are worthless How did you come to this conclusion? > Canada is going in the other direction with increase to restrictions? As far as I'm aware, Canada is stepping down restrictions as cases drop/ICU beds free up. Can you share where restrictions are being increased?
      • sleepingadmin 5y ago
        >According to https://covid19tracker.ca/vaccinationtracker.html https://covid19tracker.ca/vaccinationtracker.html, ~43% of eligible Canadians have a booster/3rd dose. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/01/28/ontario-has-been-overreporting-the-number-of-people-vaccinated-for-weeks-it-begs-the-question-what-else-has-the-province-got-wrong.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/01/28/ontario-has-been... https://www.narcity.com/toronto/ontarians-that-have-been-fully-vaccinated-have-been-misreported-health-officials-say https://www.narcity.com/toronto/ontarians-that-have-been-ful... I actually go back to when I got my first shot. Nobody under 40 unless they had a morbidity qualified to get the shot. Yet 70% of canadians had the first shot already? It's impossible and they were fudging the numbers from the getgo. >Most people have realized the covid shots are worthless. How did you come to this conclusion? Lets unpack a little. 1. Efficacy of vaccine for omicron is well known for being worthless. Im sure I dont have to prove this. 2. Much more important factor. We found out the shots were misrepresented. It's not a vaccine. A vaccine prevents infection. The authorities clearly said 'if you get the vaccine, you dont get covid' but that's not at all how it is. You still get sick and contagious, it just reduces symptoms. >As far as I'm aware, Canada is stepping down restrictions as cases drop/ICU beds free up. Can you share where restrictions are being increased? The convoy ishappening because vaccination became mandatory for some truckers in January. That was a new restriction.
• rubyist5eva 5y ago
  Getting vaccinated, often because you are being coerced by your employer, does not imply support of vaccine mandates.
• sdsaga12 5y ago
  Negative coverage is much easier to come by than positive coverage if you mostly consume legacy/corporate media on this issue. If you're interested in a deeper understanding of people who support this movement than you can gain from a few embedded tweets in an article or a reporter's attempt to summarize the motivations and backgrounds of a large group of people, here's a YouTube channel that has been doing extended live streams from the ground in Ottawa: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzGiDDKdphJ0GFvEd82WfYQ/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzGiDDKdphJ0GFvEd82WfYQ/vid... The channel owner is a Canadian lawyer named Viva Frei. Frei's personal attitude toward the protests is broadly supportive, but the valuable thing about his coverage is that he speaks to anybody who is willing to talk to him as he wanders around the streets of Ottawa, including counter-protestors. A livestream can never be a true replacement for being there in person, but this is the best that I've found. Coverage from other livestream channels is also easily available on YouTube. It's very easy for lack of understanding to lead to distrust, fear, and hate. You can (and very well might) disagree with people after having heard them out, but you will almost certainly view them as more human, and is that not the central feature the empathetic mindset is supposed to be about? If you have the time, I recommend making an effort to watch extended and unedited interviews with the people behind any protest movement you intend to form a strong opinion about (not just this one). Remember that the literal definition of "prejudice" is something close to a "decision formed without due examination of the facts or arguments necessary to a just and impartial decision." [1] If you don't wish to be prejudiced, don't let yourself form a strong opinion without first having learned what people you think you disagree with have to say for themselves. [1] https://www.etymonline.com/word/prejudice#etymonline_v_19410 https://www.etymonline.com/word/prejudice#etymonline_v_19410
• themaninthedark 5y ago
  >Evidence suggests that funding for this protest is in large part foreign (IE not from canada) and that most canadian donations are from wealthy business owners, not workers Others have addressed the fact that more than half the funds are from Canada. Imagine if someone tried to discredit BLM by saying that most of the funding came from wealthy business and not individual black community members...
  • jdright 5y ago
    https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7wpax/freedom-convoy-givesendgo-donors-leaked https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7wpax/freedom-convoy-givese... > the majority of donors come from the U.S. (56%) and Canada (29%)
    • themaninthedark 5y ago
      and from the linked NYT article: >A review of the data shows that some $4.3 million came from Canada, while an additional $3.6 million originated in the United States, though the United States accounted for the most individual donations. Small donations from dozens of other countries made up a fraction of the total amount raised. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/14/world/canada/canada-trucker-protests-donations.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/14/world/canada/canada-truck... Phrasing it as the majority of the donors are foreign to drive a narrative that Canadians don't care about this issue when they are putting their money and their time on the line is absurd.
      • fungos 5y ago
        Money doesn't vote, people vote. Democracy is about people and not amount of money. Example, because one billionaire donates $5millions and 5000 Americans put each $200. Doesn't mean that Canadians care more because $5millions is more than $1million.
  • SECProto 5y ago
    > Others have addressed the fact that more than half the funds are from Canada. This is incorrect, 4.3 million was from Canada out of 8.7 million total. ~49.5%
• silent_cal 5y ago
  Who cares how popular it is? It only matters if it's justified. Very often the minority position is the correct one.