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> A video conference is a sterile dehumanizing experience. A good in-person meeting is pure jazz. Its elegant sparring between those who care deeply about the t

> A video conference is a sterile dehumanizing experience. A good in-person meeting is pure jazz. Its elegant sparring between those who care deeply about the things they are building, and watching and participating in this banter is one of the joys of my professional career. This gave me a chuckle. After 20+ years in the business, the "pure jazz" in-person meetings vs "complete waste of time" in-person meeting ratio was, I don't know, 1:100. I can think of maybe 2 or 3 out of the last several years before the pandemic that were really consequential. There are great reasons to meet and hash things out, but honestly, if everyone's in the office, I've found that it's a green light for lazy managers to work out communication and team build by... having more meetings. Not running them well, not writing any actual decision down, just having a meeting and thinking it's progress. My main hope is that people use this remote-first time to really learn how to write and share writing. But, if I end up just getting people to learn how to start a Slack DM with a question instead of just "Hi! Are you there?", well, that will also be progress.

rootusrootus 5y ago
> There are great reasons to meet and hash things out, but honestly, if everyone's in the office, I've found that it's a green light for lazy managers to work out communication and team build by... having more meetings. Not running them well, not writing any actual decision down, just having a meeting and thinking it's progress. In my office, this has gotten significantly worse during the pandemic. Death by a million zoom calls, we have far more meetings now than when we worked in the same space. Sure, we had plenty of dumb meetings then, but it has escalated to new heights in the last couple years.
- droidist2 5y ago
  Agree, and at least in-person meetings give you human contact. Zoom meetings are like giving yourself a sunburn but also not getting any Vitamin D in the process.
- mr_tristan 5y ago
  To be honest, I think this is a sign that the company really isn't experimenting, and probably won't figure out how to stay fully remote post-pandemic. The best thing my company did was host a single "async week". Absolutely no video calls, only async. A lot of communication shifted after that week. For example, my group has eradicated "round robin" calls, where individuals share their status or whatever. Instead, you create a card on a doc that's mostly a kanban board. That card just links to notes in another doc. So... we basically have an agenda system that: a.) keeps regular meetings on point quickly, and b.) keeps notes of what's been decided. We wouldn't have figured this out without ripping off the band-aid and forcing everyone to do it differently for a week.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  Meetings at my prior place was limited by meeting room scarcity. Ofcourse the amount of meetings explode in such a place!
rsanheim 5y ago
I agree that many meetings are often useless and much could be gained if more folks could learn to express ideas and debate and converse in long form writing (not slack messages, not what passes for code review at many shops). I don’t think that contradicts Rands’ main tpoint that something significant is lost when a good discussion or debate or rant can only be held over video conf. Modern management dictates endless meetings to justify its existence, but that is largely a separate issue from the fact that a truly “alive” face to face human interaction can not be replicated by current tech, not even close. I’ve worked primarily remote for 10+ years, but I still cherish the times when a good team I was on got on-site to debate or argue and then figure out a way forward and plan it out l. I think it can be easy to forget that with the rise of remote-first jobs and endless travel restrictions we live with. The highest bandwidth conversation is done in person, and I don’t think tech has really come close, regardless of how far it has come. I hope that gap narrows and more younger folks can experience what they have missed if their only real job experience has been done over zoom and slack.
- bckr 5y ago
  I think what's being left out of this conversation are "quick syncs"--the equivalent of coffee breaks or "can we look at something together?" These are what I desire to have (that and grabbing lunch together) and why I'm looking forward to <100% WFH
function_seven 5y ago
> But, if I end up just getting people to learn how to start a Slack DM with a question instead of just "Hi! Are you there?", well, that will also be progress. Why does this piss me off so much? I mean, the Slack thing. There are half a dozen people who DM me each day with "Hi." or "Good morning". ...And nothing else. Those messages fill me with instant dread. Oh God what are they going to ask me now?, or, fuckin' out with it, yeah? I'm pretty sure it's because I'm right, and they know what they're headed towards will be a slog. So better to trap me by having me respond first ("Hi, what's up?"). Now that I've responded, THEY GOT ME! Without knowing the subject matter, I'm committed to a discussion about it.[0] Contrast this with those compose an actual message. ("Morning. Quick question, how many modifiers are we allowed to comp on the widgets this year before we need the TPS Approval Team to get involved?", or "Hi. Can you update the stats today for tomorrow's meeting?") Those are fantastic. If it's a simple question, I can respond instantly without losing flow or whatever. If it's a complicated question, I can respond instantly with "I'll find out by COB tomorrow", or maybe it's complicated and also aligned with what I'm working on, so I pick up the phone and call them right then. I have options. But the "hi" with no context or further messages? I just flat out ignore those now. Hopefully I'll be getting people to learn how to start a DM with a question. [0] Hmm, I just got an idea. I'm going to start DMs with "Promise you won't get mad." :P
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  No, I just think it seems rude to start with a question instead of a stock pleasantry. I know you know I’m teeing up a question, if I wasn’t I wouldn’t be slacking you at all.
  - D13Fd 5y ago
    “Hey, [question here]?”
    - LAC-Tech 5y ago
      Yeah that's what I default to. Or maybe even "Morning, how's it going? [question here]". I like to be friendly but also to not to waste time by doing some kind of weird manual slack handshake protocol.
gedy 5y ago
Also been in this industry for 20+ years, at 5-6 companies, and feel same. I hate to sound so cynical, but the only people I've see jazzed about meetings are business types who are uncertain what they want in the product, and engineering talks them through reality of "well we could do this or that", and sometimes it results it clarity and excitement for them, e.g. "Yes! Okay!"
- babyshake 5y ago
  This is a pattern that has always been there but it seems to be a lot worse for some reason in the age of video conferences: 1. Business types: "Is {vague and half-baked feature idea} feasible?" 2. Engineer: "Why yes, it's not a perpetual motion machine so I think it should be feasible." 3. Business types: "Okay, great. So we can expect it to be shipped next week?" 4. Engineer: "Well first we would want more detailed specs and we're waiting for an API we need from another team and we have three other projects that we are finishing up to ship next week..." 5. Business types: "We need this feature next week so let's schedule another 45 minute meeting with 15 people to figure out how we can get this done by next week."
  - alexashka 5y ago
    Hahaha this reads like a comedy sketch :D Experienced developers I've met are quite adept at managing expectations, so this is only an issue if you get thrown into a senior role far too early in your career.
  - nunez 5y ago
    OMG yes. I can never understand the teams that think “Why yes, more meetings to talk about how to do this thing with a sudden deadline” is a good idea. Unfortunately, my experience has shown that people on these teams work nights and weekends to actually get the thing done, and then gloat about how much they’re working, since that’s what everyone else in the org does (and is rewarded on to some extent)
alexashka 5y ago
> if I end up just getting people to learn how to start a Slack DM with a question instead of just "Hi! Are you there?", well, that will also be progress. As an ex-hi-are-you-there, let me chime in. Unless you've had years of practice writing out your thoughts (what good programmers do for a living) and have a systematic understanding of what problem you're having and how the other person may be able to help - it is actually really hard to express yourself concisely and coherently. People who've engaged in online forums for years or are otherwise quite intelligent just don't understand how much of a challenge this is for a lot of people.
- mushbino 5y ago
  You do follow the Hi with a question, right? You're messaging the person because you have an actual question, I'm assuming. Why not just combine them into one whole message instead of dividing them? I'm not sure I understand where the lack of practice thing comes in.
  - alexashka 5y ago
    If people could just ask a concise question and get a concise answer, they would just do that. But they don't. Why? For many reasons, one of which is my previous reply.
    - themadturk 5y ago
      But if they’re going to ask the question anyway, what’s so hard about just typing “Hi,…” then ask whatever rambling or imprecise thing they’re going to say before hitting enter? No one is requiring it to be concise; it’s just that they got our attention with the “Hi” and now we’re waiting five minutes for the question to be asked, instead of the question, in whatever form, appearing without the preliminaries.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - 5y ago
hinkley 5y ago
> just having a meeting and thinking it's progress. Or for the pageantry, which the quote you cited is all about.

rootusrootus 5y ago

> There are great reasons to meet and hash things out, but honestly, if everyone's in the office, I've found that it's a green light for lazy managers to work out communication and team build by... having more meetings. Not running them well, not writing any actual decision down, just having a meeting and thinking it's progress. In my office, this has gotten significantly worse during the pandemic. Death by a million zoom calls, we have far more meetings now than when we worked in the same space. Sure, we had plenty of dumb meetings then, but it has escalated to new heights in the last couple years.

droidist2 5y ago
Agree, and at least in-person meetings give you human contact. Zoom meetings are like giving yourself a sunburn but also not getting any Vitamin D in the process.
mr_tristan 5y ago
To be honest, I think this is a sign that the company really isn't experimenting, and probably won't figure out how to stay fully remote post-pandemic. The best thing my company did was host a single "async week". Absolutely no video calls, only async. A lot of communication shifted after that week. For example, my group has eradicated "round robin" calls, where individuals share their status or whatever. Instead, you create a card on a doc that's mostly a kanban board. That card just links to notes in another doc. So... we basically have an agenda system that: a.) keeps regular meetings on point quickly, and b.) keeps notes of what's been decided. We wouldn't have figured this out without ripping off the band-aid and forcing everyone to do it differently for a week.
rightbyte 5y ago
Meetings at my prior place was limited by meeting room scarcity. Ofcourse the amount of meetings explode in such a place!

rsanheim 5y ago

I agree that many meetings are often useless and much could be gained if more folks could learn to express ideas and debate and converse in long form writing (not slack messages, not what passes for code review at many shops). I don’t think that contradicts Rands’ main tpoint that something significant is lost when a good discussion or debate or rant can only be held over video conf. Modern management dictates endless meetings to justify its existence, but that is largely a separate issue from the fact that a truly “alive” face to face human interaction can not be replicated by current tech, not even close. I’ve worked primarily remote for 10+ years, but I still cherish the times when a good team I was on got on-site to debate or argue and then figure out a way forward and plan it out l. I think it can be easy to forget that with the rise of remote-first jobs and endless travel restrictions we live with. The highest bandwidth conversation is done in person, and I don’t think tech has really come close, regardless of how far it has come. I hope that gap narrows and more younger folks can experience what they have missed if their only real job experience has been done over zoom and slack.

bckr 5y ago
I think what's being left out of this conversation are "quick syncs"--the equivalent of coffee breaks or "can we look at something together?" These are what I desire to have (that and grabbing lunch together) and why I'm looking forward to <100% WFH

function_seven 5y ago

> But, if I end up just getting people to learn how to start a Slack DM with a question instead of just "Hi! Are you there?", well, that will also be progress. Why does this piss me off so much? I mean, the Slack thing. There are half a dozen people who DM me each day with "Hi." or "Good morning". ...And nothing else. Those messages fill me with instant dread. Oh God what are they going to ask me now?, or, fuckin' out with it, yeah? I'm pretty sure it's because I'm right, and they know what they're headed towards will be a slog. So better to trap me by having me respond first ("Hi, what's up?"). Now that I've responded, THEY GOT ME! Without knowing the subject matter, I'm committed to a discussion about it.[0] Contrast this with those compose an actual message. ("Morning. Quick question, how many modifiers are we allowed to comp on the widgets this year before we need the TPS Approval Team to get involved?", or "Hi. Can you update the stats today for tomorrow's meeting?") Those are fantastic. If it's a simple question, I can respond instantly without losing flow or whatever. If it's a complicated question, I can respond instantly with "I'll find out by COB tomorrow", or maybe it's complicated and also aligned with what I'm working on, so I pick up the phone and call them right then. I have options. But the "hi" with no context or further messages? I just flat out ignore those now. Hopefully I'll be getting people to learn how to start a DM with a question. [0] Hmm, I just got an idea. I'm going to start DMs with "Promise you won't get mad." :P

commandlinefan 5y ago
No, I just think it seems rude to start with a question instead of a stock pleasantry. I know you know I’m teeing up a question, if I wasn’t I wouldn’t be slacking you at all.
- D13Fd 5y ago
  “Hey, [question here]?”
  - LAC-Tech 5y ago
    Yeah that's what I default to. Or maybe even "Morning, how's it going? [question here]". I like to be friendly but also to not to waste time by doing some kind of weird manual slack handshake protocol.

gedy 5y ago

Also been in this industry for 20+ years, at 5-6 companies, and feel same. I hate to sound so cynical, but the only people I've see jazzed about meetings are business types who are uncertain what they want in the product, and engineering talks them through reality of "well we could do this or that", and sometimes it results it clarity and excitement for them, e.g. "Yes! Okay!"

babyshake 5y ago
This is a pattern that has always been there but it seems to be a lot worse for some reason in the age of video conferences: 1. Business types: "Is {vague and half-baked feature idea} feasible?" 2. Engineer: "Why yes, it's not a perpetual motion machine so I think it should be feasible." 3. Business types: "Okay, great. So we can expect it to be shipped next week?" 4. Engineer: "Well first we would want more detailed specs and we're waiting for an API we need from another team and we have three other projects that we are finishing up to ship next week..." 5. Business types: "We need this feature next week so let's schedule another 45 minute meeting with 15 people to figure out how we can get this done by next week."
- alexashka 5y ago
  Hahaha this reads like a comedy sketch :D Experienced developers I've met are quite adept at managing expectations, so this is only an issue if you get thrown into a senior role far too early in your career.
- nunez 5y ago
  OMG yes. I can never understand the teams that think “Why yes, more meetings to talk about how to do this thing with a sudden deadline” is a good idea. Unfortunately, my experience has shown that people on these teams work nights and weekends to actually get the thing done, and then gloat about how much they’re working, since that’s what everyone else in the org does (and is rewarded on to some extent)

alexashka 5y ago

> if I end up just getting people to learn how to start a Slack DM with a question instead of just "Hi! Are you there?", well, that will also be progress. As an ex-hi-are-you-there, let me chime in. Unless you've had years of practice writing out your thoughts (what good programmers do for a living) and have a systematic understanding of what problem you're having and how the other person may be able to help - it is actually really hard to express yourself concisely and coherently. People who've engaged in online forums for years or are otherwise quite intelligent just don't understand how much of a challenge this is for a lot of people.

mushbino 5y ago
You do follow the Hi with a question, right? You're messaging the person because you have an actual question, I'm assuming. Why not just combine them into one whole message instead of dividing them? I'm not sure I understand where the lack of practice thing comes in.
- alexashka 5y ago
  If people could just ask a concise question and get a concise answer, they would just do that. But they don't. Why? For many reasons, one of which is my previous reply.
  - themadturk 5y ago
    But if they’re going to ask the question anyway, what’s so hard about just typing “Hi,…” then ask whatever rambling or imprecise thing they’re going to say before hitting enter? No one is requiring it to be concise; it’s just that they got our attention with the “Hi” and now we’re waiting five minutes for the question to be asked, instead of the question, in whatever form, appearing without the preliminaries.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - 5y ago

hinkley 5y ago

> just having a meeting and thinking it's progress. Or for the pageantry, which the quote you cited is all about.