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15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died
- YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
- sjaak 5y agoOne must break eggs in order to make an omelet.
- maybelsyrup 5y agoThe omelette is already made. We already have the technology he's "developing".
- pcrh 5y agoExactly. Though it is used primarily to record activity in experimental animals, rather than to stimulate it, for example: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Left-A-PBM-array-on-the-mouse-skull-The-anterio-posterior-axis-of-PBM-array-matches_fig1_49768504 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Left-A-PBM-array-on-the-...
- WesolyKubeczek 5y agoAll good and dandy until the egg is you or someone you love. To put ourselves in the shoes of the monkeys that died a pointless death for who knows what (a chip that will allow broadcasting ads directly into the brain?) is a thing that we call "empathy". Try having some one day.
- zihotki 5y agoI wonder why is it pointless? As for the empathy, this is a classic trolley problem - on one hand you have a pack of monkeys, on the other you have many people and pets (and may be even animals) with certain conditions which could be (potentially) fixed by neuralink. On which side will you guide a trolley, where will you apply your empathy?
- WesolyKubeczek 5y agoIt's pointless because Neuralink solves literally none of mankind's problems (like in "our life sucks mightily without that thing") that would warrant someone, let alone someone from a different species, dying in any shape or form. Not even mentioning that those devices would primarily serve us approaching the most grim cyberpunk dystopia ever. The description also hints that those surgeries were botched as fuck. Likely because who would care, it's just a monkey after all. I'd expect higher standards, and here they seem to have no standards at all. This is really the "forgot a meter of gauze inside someone's skull" level of botching things, I thought we'd left those in the early XX century.
- cam_l 5y agoone must break heads in order to make an homme-lette
- NotHim 5y agoElon almost always overpromises and under delivers. The majority of his projects never really come to fruition.
- patrec 5y agoI wish we had more people who under-deliver the way Elon Musk does.
- arcticbull 5y agoSo far he's... - planning to dig tiny tunnels with no ventilation or emergency egress for cars instead of, you know, trains [1] - [edit](as if the only reason we have traffic is because lanes are uncovered? maybe just put a roof over the highway as a beta test?) - he's walked back the whole hyperloop thing almost entirely [2] - some electric cars where he tried to overthrow the government of Bolivia to source lithium [3] - at a company which produces a single digit percentage as many cars as say Toyota, but is valued at the entire rest of the car industry put together - [edit] and a publicly available beta of an autopilot system that seems hell-bent on murder (including having tried to off me, a few times - btw, super fun when it's not) - some very expensive space internet [4] cat heaters [5] (although after reading this article I assume the cats are being slowly roasted in some sort of bandwidth trial) - built rockets that aren't actually less expensive than competitors - they hope to be, but presently are not, and tbh, I don't see a path (but would be happily proven wrong) [6] - and tortured a bunch of monkeys to death. 11/10. Nailed it. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/22/review-of-elon-musks-dc-to-baltimore-loop-system-reveals-safety-concerns/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/22/review-of-elon-musks-dc-to... [2] https://www.thedailybeast.com/elon-musk-hyperloop-dreams-slam-into-cold-hard-reality https://www.thedailybeast.com/elon-musk-hyperloop-dreams-sla... [3] https://www.yahoo.com/video/elon-musk-becomes-twitter-laughingstock-214435631.html https://www.yahoo.com/video/elon-musk-becomes-twitter-laughi... [4] https://www.pcmag.com/news/starlinks-new-premium-tier-is-fast-but-super-expensive https://www.pcmag.com/news/starlinks-new-premium-tier-is-fas... [5] https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/cozy-kitties-spacexs-self-heating-starlink-satellite-dishes-attracting-cats/P65JOWFNRNDQTETOH3Q2UFKCXE/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/cozy-kitties-spacexs-sel... [6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TxkE_oYrjU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TxkE_oYrjU
- silvercove 5y ago
- arcticbull 5y agoAnd died in the most gruesome ways imaginable. One of them appears to have chewed off its own toe. Elon's folks tortured them to death for a goal I cannot properly articulate, tbh.
- jsnodlin 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- arcticbull 5y ago> Scientific progress has come to a standstill ... Has it? > ... with paradigm shifting knowledge within sight but out of reach for ethical reasons run amok. I mean we played this game before in the 40s, with Mengele and Japan's (and then the US') Unit 731. [1] > It’s okay let a few monkeys die, think of them like the cows you eat. I have no problem killing animals for food. I generally avoid torturing them to death though. Of course, in some cases suffering is going to be unavoidable - as in some kinds of medical research, but generally there's a high burden and a meaningful ethics committee involved. [1] Warning: you may not want to follow this link, and I say that as someone who grew up with the internet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
- jsnodlin 5y agoYes everyone is aware of what happens if you completely do away with ethics in science. Moderation is key here, the pendulum has swung too far to the other extreme from your example.
- arcticbull 5y ago> Moderation is key here, the pendulum has swung too far to the other extreme from your example. Ok, do you have some examples of experiments that you think wouldn't make it past ethics committee but are worth doing anyways to help unlock paradigm shifting advances? Please describe them, and explain specifically for what reason you think they wouldn't make it past ethics committee. I'm willing to be convinced.
- Computeiful 5y ago“Pretty much every single monkey that had had implants put in their head suffered from pretty debilitating health effects,” said the PCRM’s research advocacy director Jeremy Beckham. “They were, frankly, maiming and killing the animals.” Elon's desire for human trials in 2022 definitely isn't going to work. Human trials in 2032 seems a much more realistic timeframe.
- maybelsyrup 5y ago> Human trials in 2032 seems a much more realistic timeframe. Wait: the guy tortures (or pays for the torture of) intelligent life for literally zero benefit and your conclusion is that his trial timeline isn't realistic? I actually lol'd Self-crashing cars, science-blocking satellites, Ativan tweets, and now sadism to primates: what more evidence do we need that what this person requires -- in the most charitable possible case -- is to be tarred and feathered and sent to live forever in that garbage patch in the Pacific? Honestly it's like 2 decades now with this guy, what's it gonna take
- vore 5y agoI think, more charitably, is that the OP's point is it's patently absurd that Elon wants human trials in any form this year when these kind of horrific deaths are happening to these monkeys.
- maybelsyrup 5y agoNo no I know, you're probably right, but like you see how the phrasing was just horror/funny right
- xupybd 5y agoThe benefits will be "literally" life changing for hundreds of thousands of people that suffer from conditions that could be aided by these devices. Then as the technology matures it's the kind of thing that can bring species wide changes. The benefits here can't be overstated.
- ganzuul 5y ago
- aemreunal 5y agoIf you'd like to remind yourself of the original demonstration video of a monkey with Neuralink, playing a game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rXrGH52aoM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rXrGH52aoM
- fathyb 5y agoWhat did they claim the chip was doing? It just looks like a monkey trained to play basic video games for food. That chip could be the sticker of the backpack of a little Lego spaceman.
- adamtulinius 5y agoIt ends up playing using only the neuralink when the joystick is disconnected.
- fathyb 5y agoI should have be more attentive (and up to date), that is impressive. I hope those allegations are false, no amount of progress can justify such lack of respect for the life of a primate.
- WithinReason 5y agoNot even helping every human who lost the use of some or the whole of their body? Isn't being locked into your body for the rest of your life torture as well?
- berndi 5y agoWe've been able to get a one- or two-dimensional control signal from average brain activity for a long time. This is infinitely more simple than actual "mind-reading" and "mind-writing" which, as any neuroscientist will tell you, we don't have clue how to do.
- lobocinza 5y ago
- Kosirich 5y agoInstead of bashing and defending Elon Musk, I would appreciate an answer from a medical researcher or someone with equivalent knowledge on how do the findings relate to other medical studies where monkeys are used, in terms of numbers used, way monkeys were treated as well as research outcome value compared to similar studies done elsewhere. (thanks)
- lvs 5y agoThe NIH has been narrowing the scope of primate research for some time. Several years ago, they announced they'll no longer fund invasive chimp work. There are regular scandals about the conditions or experimentation on primates that crop up every couple of years. As far as "research outcome value," unfortunately this is notoriously difficult to quantify for all aspects of the research enterprise. Most of the metrics typically used are abysmal for any serious utilitarian analysis (e.g. publication count, references to those publications, patents approved, funding raised, etc.). And you would not be surprised to hear stories very similar to this one quietly passed around in both academic and industry contexts, where consequences are few if any. It makes many people uncomfortable, but the power dynamics are such that they continue so long as they continue to support career advancement and continue to be approved by IRBs and funding agencies. That's not to justify what's being reported here-- far from it. If anything, I would support a broad ban on primate experimentation with few exceptions.
- IIAOPSW 5y agoThe article felt a bit flat. Surely there's no such thing as "oops, monkey died, let me just grab the next one off the shelf". There's no real reporting into the why or how, just uncritical repeating of the complaint that the neuralink research is dangerous / unethical. The reporting is so flimsy that one starts to look at the page and ask "wait, what site am I on anyway?" Hmm, I wonder what sort of bias a site called consequence has. So naturally I click around. It appears to be some sort of music blog, with articles that are primarily focused on celebrity outrage gossip. Well, that explains a bit. Still neuralink is a bit outside their wheelhouse. How did this article get on their front page. Scrolling around at the top we see that the contributor basically just paraphrased what he read elsewhere for clicks. "Via Business Insider and the New York Post, the news comes from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, an animal-rights group..." Ok, so its a report of a report of an animal rights group claiming they plan to file a complaint (but haven't done so yet). This is all rather tenuous.
- caaqil 5y agoYeah, the URL should probably be changed to the Post article: https://nypost.com/2022/02/10/elon-musks-neuralink-allegedly-subjected-monkeys-to-extreme-suffering/ https://nypost.com/2022/02/10/elon-musks-neuralink-allegedly... (which was posted here a couple of times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30293937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30293937 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30305100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30305100)
- cloutchaser 5y ago2 days ago Tesla Fremont was sued for being a racially segregated workplace. Like really, in 2022, in California. On very dubious grounds based on teslas blog post reply. These are opening shots in the musk vs woke war. We can’t have him standing up to warren and sanders, posting red pill memes and selfies with Jordan Peterson… Well good luck. I look forward to musk fighting them. He’s not your average corporate CEO who would rather bow and apologize. He fights. Hard.
- sschueller 5y agoElon created his own little apartheid state, his dad must be proud.
- photon12 5y agoI do enough hardware security work to where I wouldn't want anything like this anywhere near the motor or sensory or emotional functions of me or my loved ones anyway. One abusive partner or associate could do so much damage. Don't want to even feel a bit of pressure from people who say I need this kind of tech to "stay competitive in the marketplace." My initial bias as a potential customer is that I really don't like this stuff. And it seems like the leadership chain in this particular product isn't doing anything to assuage my concerns or show seriousness about minimizing harm. This is self-defeating product strategy at best. At worst...well others have said it better.
- sdoering 5y agoI can't even imagine how these experiments are passing an ethics committee. I had never heard of this experiment before, but this report is one of these moments, that make me question, if we took the wrong branch of reality. A billionaire torturing animals for a self gain goal disguised as scientific research sounds like a plot from a James Bond movie of my childhood. I just can't wrap my head around.
- imdsm 5y agoTo be fair, it's easy for us to sit here and dismiss research into brain implants while we have full use of our bodies and are fit and healthy. On the other hand, people who have suffered horrific injuries likely feel quite differently about the research. While what's allegedly happening to the animals is horrible, let's just be clear that "self gain goal disguised as scientific research" is a highly subject take. No progress happens without research and I dare to say, many of us take medicines that we wouldn't have without animal trials. Are we not guilty then too?
- sterlind 5y agoI'm suffering through learning to code again without much use of my hands. I would very much like Neuralink to be a thing.
- cheeze 5y agoAnywhere that I can read more about this? How do you do the coding? Feet? Something else? Very cool - definitely an a11y area I don't really think about
- sterlind 5y agolegs are messed up too. I use voice and eye tracking with talon and cursorless and a tree-sitter extension I wrote that enables different command grammars based on where the cursor is, and syncs the vocab list with the symbols in scope.
- 5y ago
- Barrin92 5y ago"Neuralink chips were implanted by drilling holes into the monkeys’ skulls. One primate developed a bloody skin infection and had to be euthanized. Another was discovered missing fingers and toes, “possibly from self-mutilation or some other unspecified trauma,” and had to be put down. A third began uncontrollably vomiting shortly after surgery, and days later “appeared to collapse from exhaustion/fatigue.” An autopsy revealed the animal suffered from a brain hemorrhage." I'm fairly certain in 50 years we'll look at the way we treat highly intelligent and social primates not to mention other animals the exact same way we've looked at the atrocities and ethical breaches in scientific research of the past. I'd actually like to see an interview with the people who have to witness these kind of Frankenstein experiments first hand and how they justify it.
- coryrc 5y agoWe allow poor people to mine tiny bits of gold by burning (boiling?) off mercury, poisoning themselves, their family, and the whole ecosystem, as their nervous systems degenerate like a slow form of torture. This is tame. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/28/climate/amazon-forest-mercury-peru.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/28/climate/amazon-forest-mer...
- sofixa 5y agoSame with "artisanal" cobalt mining.
- monstermachine 5y agoNot to mention more than 80% of gold use is superficial. Majority of it is held in banks and reserves. https://www.statista.com/statistics/299609/gold-demand-by-industry-sector-share/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/299609/gold-demand-by-in...
- tim333 5y agoWell "illegal gold mining" is banned kind of by definition. Admittedly it seems Peru and places aren't enforcing the laws as well as they could but it's kind of a different category of problem. And I'm not sure you can regard the US as responsible for making gold valuable as it was for thousands of years before the US existed.
- Vaderv 5y ago
- throwaway_4ever 5y agoTrolley problem. I wish most Neuralink detractors would even attempt to understand the problem scope, trade-off, and everything that's at stake here in our lifetimes. "Elon Musk wants more $" is such a brain-dead take. The reasoning behind Neuralink is explained here: https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html#part4 https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html#part4 TL;DR Some of the smartest people in the world consider AGI an existential threat and Neuralink is the leading hedge that instead of competing against AGI in futility, we augment ourselves to become the AGI instead.
- xondono 5y ago> TL;DR Some of the smartest people in the world consider AGI an existential threat and Neuralink is the leading hedge that instead of competing against AGI in futility, we augment ourselves to become the AGI instead. That's ridiculous
- fulafel 5y agoSupposing for the sake of argument that I accepted this premise, you would still have to demonstrate that it's not feasible to do this research humanely. We have been successfully implanting hardware in humans heads for a long time, at minimum we should be doing it equally carefully with these animals and reversibly.
- donkarma 5y agoi am of the position that AGI is impossible or if it is even possible won't be done for centuries to come
- kkoncevicius 5y agoA fitting quote: "The error in depicting critics of animal experiments as anti-science becomes clear when one begins to question the extent to which the purported scientific aims of these experiments are actually accomplished. For then it turns out that the experiments and not their critics are unscientific. Those experiments that cannot be justified on scientific grounds can be no more justified than the frivolous killing and torturing of animals. In fact they are even less capable of justification, since such experiments block more fruitful uses of scientific resources." -- Deborah Mayo
- cloutchaser 5y agoYou don’t know the end result of an experiment. That’s literally why it’s an experiment. /facepalm
- HPsquared 5y agoAh, the "no true scientist" fallacy. What does it mean to be "unscientific"?
- diamondo25 5y agoCannot be justified on scientific grounds? Surely they arent running this like what certain countries did in wars?
- jeffparsons 5y agoOne of their nearest-term practical goals is to find a way to help paralyzed people to move again. Figuring out how to take people from quadriplegic to walking around seems like worthwhile science to me. > [...] no more justified than the frivolous killing and torturing of animals. Maybe Neuralink is doing something unethical. But this kind of rant makes the whole accusation way too easy to dismiss as the work of a crackpot. People that do stumble upon something unethical and feel the need to blow the whistle should probably keep that in mind and focus on the facts if they want to be taken seriously.
- inflagranti 5y agoYou mean like this: https://www.trtworld.com/life/breakthrough-nerve-stimulation-device-helps-paralysed-patients-walk-swim-54502 https://www.trtworld.com/life/breakthrough-nerve-stimulation...
- radu_floricica 5y agoEven assuming what they're reporting is true (which having read IIAOPSW's comment above now seems rather unlikely) I don't see the situation as terrible. "15 of 23 monkeys died" is in itself meaningless. We don't know how long they intended to keep them alive anyways - a reasonable protocol in this kind of studies is "have procedure, observe for X weeks, then have an autopsy to take a closer look at what actually happened". TBH, that's pretty much what I expect they do - I wouldn't want that in my head without them actually looking at brains under a microscope to check for unexpected side effects. They're also using monkeys - which yes, look cute, but are not primates. If I'd hear chimps, for example, I'd expect them to be implanted long term, and be much more careful and sparing with autopsies. Also most of the issues in the article don't directly touch neuralink technology but generic brain surgery stuff like infection. So worst case scenario they should improve their procedures, but there it doesn't say anything there's inherently bad about the tech. And on a second reading of the article I realize I can't really get much cold info out of it. It reads a lot like somebody got gossip over a few beers and posted on social media and a reporter took it from there.
- GlennS 5y ago> They're also using monkeys - which yes, look cute, but are not primates. Monkeys are primates. Perhaps you mean they're not apes?
- radu_floricica 5y agoUps. Yes.
- nootropicat 5y agoHow else is brain implant research supposed to happen? It's not surprising earlier attempts ended badly, they're putting things in brain matter. It's hardly pointless cruelty. Brain implants are way more important than self driving cars and reusable rockets. The latter are useful economically, while brain implants are a necessary step on the path of upgrading humans beyond biological limits. In the medium term they would finally allow functional artificial limbs.
- cloutchaser 5y agoApparently according to many in this thread animal rights trump disabled peoples rights. Just so we’re clear that’s what we’re talking about.
- Proven 5y ago
- uxcolumbo 5y agoDirect link to PCRM's article: https://www.pcrm.org/news/news-releases/physicians-group-files-state-lawsuit-and-federal-complaint-against-uc-davis https://www.pcrm.org/news/news-releases/physicians-group-fil... And the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine is more than an animal rights activist group. --------------- The Physicians Committee combines the clout and expertise of more than 17,000 physicians with the dedicated actions of more than 175,000 members across the United States and around the world. The Physicians Committee is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, headquartered in Washington, DC. Our efforts are dramatically changing the way doctors treat chronic diseases such as diabetes, heart disease, obesity, and cancer. By putting prevention over pills, doctors are empowering their patients to take control of their own health. And we are also building a new way of viewing research. Since 1985, the Physicians Committee has worked tirelessly for alternatives to the use of animals in medical education and research and for more effective scientific methods. Our staff of physicians, dietitians, and scientists is working with policymakers, industry, the medical community, the media, and the public to create a better future for people and animals. ------------ From: https://www.pcrm.org https://www.pcrm.org
- xhevahir 5y agoThe project has attracted a great deal of interest from celebrities like Grimes You don't say!
- sergnio 5y agoThis website will probably post an article next week "100% of people who drink dihydrogen oxide will die"