7 ms·

> ordered flight controllers not to leave the building If NASA employees are civilians, do they have any authority to do this? Was there special legislation us

> ordered flight controllers not to leave the building If NASA employees are civilians, do they have any authority to do this? Was there special legislation used or something?

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Professionals respecting their responsibility.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  So why the need to lock them in?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - na85 5y ago
    It's to keep press out.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - emptybottle 5y ago
      Not sure why this is downvoted. I think one of the (many) reasons to lock the doors is absolutely to keep unauthorized persons out of the room.
      - ggm 5y ago
        Press ideates as "mask the truth" where unauthorised covers all contingencies including nutcase pizzagate conspiracy hunters, Walter Mitty types and "cleaner unplugged the data rack power" fuckups. It isn't driven to keep the press out. If any benefit its a side benefit and I observe a metric French tonne of press is locked inside the room(s) at that point.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-meaning-of-Lock-the-Doors-in-space-missions?share=1 https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-meaning-of-Lock-the-Doors-... Robert Frost, Instructor and Flight Controller at NASA: > If you are referring to the call from the Flight Director: “GC, Lock the doors” that is a command that initiates the contingency response to a significant incident, such as the loss of a vehicle. It begins a FREEZE, ISOLATE, AND PROTECT process. The Flight Director would follow up that statement with a call to the team to immediately pull out the contingency section of the Flight Control Operations Handbook to identify specific actions that are to be taken. > Access to the facility becomes restricted. People that weren’t in the room at the time or aren’t essential to the next steps are not allowed access and the people in the room are restricted from leaving. Communication in and out of the room is restricted. Usage of all devices, both workstations and personal, is restricted. The team is hands-off. Nothing should be done that changes the configuration at the time of the incident. Those are the freeze and isolate steps. Next comes protect. All of the data that was in use must be captured, recorded, and preserved in a static state. Even the trash cans have to be preserved in their state. All of this is because any investigation into the incident will require all of this data. > Once given permission, the occupants of the room may continue to capture their observations and actions in their console logs. > It is important to keep the equipment, documentation, and people in a pristine state until it all has been preserved. We don’t want any form of contamination that could be caused by someone bringing in data that wasn’t in the room during the incident into the room or removing data. We don’t want the team’s observation and recording of those observations influenced by communication with people that weren’t there. > All of the data will be collected and put into secure data containers and taken to a secure vault. Debriefing of the team may then be performed and once a response team has been formed and has begun their work, the Flight Director may release the team.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > people in the room are restricted from leaving But how's that legal? Is there some special legislation for it? A citizen's arrest requires an actual crime being observed.
      - Jtsummers 5y ago
adventured 5y ago
You seem to be confused about what civilian means in a federal context. Federal civilian is still federal and is a different world from your typical civilian private sector corporation. Yes, one or more people on the property are certain to have the power to prompt a security lock-down. They're also federal employees, not merely civilians. Someone in the chain of command can request that federal security officers secure the building/property as the scene of an ongoing crime or accident. They also employ armed security officers that can legally kill you if you're a threat. They can definitely secure the property during a potential crime or accident.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > can legally kill you if you're a threat They can use lethal force to protect evidence in the US?
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    Depending on the circumstances, yes. Probably not in this case, though.
  - adventured 5y ago
    You're dropping context. I said: if you're a threat; the implied there is obvious: if you have a gun, knife, or similar weapon and pose an imminent danger in that regard. Lethal force wouldn't be necessary in most circumstances to protect evidence unless the fleeing party is engaging in the use of lethal force. They can use force to protect government property, yes. Although most federal security officers aren't supposed to use firearms to attempt to disable vehicles.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > if you have a gun, knife, or similar weapon How's that relevant in this thread? You think they brought down the shuttle... and they're also armed in the control room?
      - 5y ago
nickff 5y ago
They're also preserving evidence for the purposes of investigating the deaths of the astronauts; there is a possibility that some controller who'd made a mistake would try to abscond with, or destroy evidence.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  Yeah I get why they want to do it, just curious about the legal mechanism. Normally without police powers you can't detain someone unless you're positive they specifically committed an actual crime, not just because you think they were involved in an incident.
jltsiren 5y ago
The relevant categories are not civilians and non-civilians but public officials and ordinary people. Public officials often have powers and duties that go beyond those of ordinary people, and police officers are simply one special case of that. Also, in jobs where people's lives are at stake, there are often situations where you may commit a crime by refusing to do your job properly. If a lockdown has been ordered, it's plausible that the situation is like that, and any official with police-like powers can reasonably stop anyone trying to leave. Especially if the person trying to leave is also a public official.
colechristensen 5y ago
You always have the power to try to not do what somebody tells you to, regardless of their authority. The actual question is “or what?” Well if you really were there and really did try to disobey that order, you’d definitely be putting your job at risk, unlikely to be breaking any laws, probably risking a physical convention with whoever kept the keys… but it comes down to why… if you really wanted to leave and had a good reason, would someone have let you? I’m guessing probably, but i really doubt you would have that reason or even tried to test the legal authority of people giving that order. Your whole job is to be in that room and something terrible happened, what circumstances would make you want to leave or test the “ you can’t make me” theory.

> ordered flight controllers not to leave the building If NASA employees are civilians, do they have any authority to do this? Was there special legislation used or something?

toomuchtodo 5y ago

Professionals respecting their responsibility.

chrisseaton 5y ago
So why the need to lock them in?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- na85 5y ago
  It's to keep press out.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - emptybottle 5y ago
    Not sure why this is downvoted. I think one of the (many) reasons to lock the doors is absolutely to keep unauthorized persons out of the room.
    - ggm 5y ago
      Press ideates as "mask the truth" where unauthorised covers all contingencies including nutcase pizzagate conspiracy hunters, Walter Mitty types and "cleaner unplugged the data rack power" fuckups. It isn't driven to keep the press out. If any benefit its a side benefit and I observe a metric French tonne of press is locked inside the room(s) at that point.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-meaning-of-Lock-the-Doors-in-space-missions?share=1 https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-meaning-of-Lock-the-Doors-... Robert Frost, Instructor and Flight Controller at NASA: > If you are referring to the call from the Flight Director: “GC, Lock the doors” that is a command that initiates the contingency response to a significant incident, such as the loss of a vehicle. It begins a FREEZE, ISOLATE, AND PROTECT process. The Flight Director would follow up that statement with a call to the team to immediately pull out the contingency section of the Flight Control Operations Handbook to identify specific actions that are to be taken. > Access to the facility becomes restricted. People that weren’t in the room at the time or aren’t essential to the next steps are not allowed access and the people in the room are restricted from leaving. Communication in and out of the room is restricted. Usage of all devices, both workstations and personal, is restricted. The team is hands-off. Nothing should be done that changes the configuration at the time of the incident. Those are the freeze and isolate steps. Next comes protect. All of the data that was in use must be captured, recorded, and preserved in a static state. Even the trash cans have to be preserved in their state. All of this is because any investigation into the incident will require all of this data. > Once given permission, the occupants of the room may continue to capture their observations and actions in their console logs. > It is important to keep the equipment, documentation, and people in a pristine state until it all has been preserved. We don’t want any form of contamination that could be caused by someone bringing in data that wasn’t in the room during the incident into the room or removing data. We don’t want the team’s observation and recording of those observations influenced by communication with people that weren’t there. > All of the data will be collected and put into secure data containers and taken to a secure vault. Debriefing of the team may then be performed and once a response team has been formed and has begun their work, the Flight Director may release the team.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > people in the room are restricted from leaving But how's that legal? Is there some special legislation for it? A citizen's arrest requires an actual crime being observed.
    - Jtsummers 5y ago

adventured 5y ago

You seem to be confused about what civilian means in a federal context. Federal civilian is still federal and is a different world from your typical civilian private sector corporation. Yes, one or more people on the property are certain to have the power to prompt a security lock-down. They're also federal employees, not merely civilians. Someone in the chain of command can request that federal security officers secure the building/property as the scene of an ongoing crime or accident. They also employ armed security officers that can legally kill you if you're a threat. They can definitely secure the property during a potential crime or accident.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> can legally kill you if you're a threat They can use lethal force to protect evidence in the US?
- Jtsummers 5y ago
  Depending on the circumstances, yes. Probably not in this case, though.
- adventured 5y ago
  You're dropping context. I said: if you're a threat; the implied there is obvious: if you have a gun, knife, or similar weapon and pose an imminent danger in that regard. Lethal force wouldn't be necessary in most circumstances to protect evidence unless the fleeing party is engaging in the use of lethal force. They can use force to protect government property, yes. Although most federal security officers aren't supposed to use firearms to attempt to disable vehicles.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > if you have a gun, knife, or similar weapon How's that relevant in this thread? You think they brought down the shuttle... and they're also armed in the control room?
    - 5y ago

nickff 5y ago

They're also preserving evidence for the purposes of investigating the deaths of the astronauts; there is a possibility that some controller who'd made a mistake would try to abscond with, or destroy evidence.

chrisseaton 5y ago
Yeah I get why they want to do it, just curious about the legal mechanism. Normally without police powers you can't detain someone unless you're positive they specifically committed an actual crime, not just because you think they were involved in an incident.

jltsiren 5y ago

The relevant categories are not civilians and non-civilians but public officials and ordinary people. Public officials often have powers and duties that go beyond those of ordinary people, and police officers are simply one special case of that. Also, in jobs where people's lives are at stake, there are often situations where you may commit a crime by refusing to do your job properly. If a lockdown has been ordered, it's plausible that the situation is like that, and any official with police-like powers can reasonably stop anyone trying to leave. Especially if the person trying to leave is also a public official.

colechristensen 5y ago

You always have the power to try to not do what somebody tells you to, regardless of their authority. The actual question is “or what?” Well if you really were there and really did try to disobey that order, you’d definitely be putting your job at risk, unlikely to be breaking any laws, probably risking a physical convention with whoever kept the keys… but it comes down to why… if you really wanted to leave and had a good reason, would someone have let you? I’m guessing probably, but i really doubt you would have that reason or even tried to test the legal authority of people giving that order. Your whole job is to be in that room and something terrible happened, what circumstances would make you want to leave or test the “ you can’t make me” theory.