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Do many married men really want that kind of life though? It's one thing to be single and roaming the world carefree. But my observation has been that most me

Do many married men really want that kind of life though? It's one thing to be single and roaming the world carefree. But my observation has been that most men who are married, especially if with children, have some innate desire to provide for the family and not being able to do so (due to unemployment, underemployment, etc.) causes them stress even if the wife is earning more than enough. Those that don't seem to be an outlier. Is it biological? Is it social pressure? I don't know.

ok_dad 5y ago
Personally, I would love to quit working and take care of my family at home. I find much more joy in that than working a programming career. I think a lot of men have been conditioned to think we have to be the provider much like women have been conditioned to think they have to be a homemaker.
- danbolt 5y ago
  Agreed; I think a lot of the shame deviating from that is both internalized and external.
- mekal 5y ago
  I'm in the same boat as you, but I think it's important to remember another factor besides conditioning. It's much easier to say "I would love to quit" when you have a job than it is to be happy not having a job when you aren't sure if you could actually get one to begin with. Similarly, if you know you could take someone in a fight, and they challenge you in public...its easier in that case to "take the high road" and walk away than it would be if you knew you would lose the fight, or you weren't confident you would win. The people in the latter case are much more likely to feel shame and/or resentment towards the aggressor later on. I think with "power" like that its easier to make the best choice in many cases. It's a shame too...I know a few people that are miserable because they don't have a "real job", even though they don't really need one financially. That lack of power keeps them from being happy and choosing the lifestyle that would obviously be best otherwise.
  - ok_dad 5y ago
    I don't really understand your comment, sorry! However, in my case, I think taking care of my family would be my "real job" since it actually takes a lot of effort! My wife does a lot around here, and I consider her work as integral to our family's well-being as my work; maybe even moreso.
- Beltalowda 5y ago
  Indeed; how is it fair that men are "forced" to work and provide income (with all the stress associated for that, especially for low-earners) and are "forced" to miss out on their kids? It seems to me that's just as much of an injustice as women being "forced" to stay at home. ("forced" in quotes as it's not strongly forced, but rather "forced" by expectations, prospects, etc.) I've long considered traditional gender roles of man works and provides income and woman raises kids and cooks to be unfair to both genders and a general issue that affects everyone, and not really a "feminist" issue as such (or rather, not exclusively feminist). In my country there's been a lot of discussion that a lot of women are working part-time rather than full-time, with many claiming this is horrible and evidence of discrimination. Maybe that plays a part, but it seems to me the real question is "why aren't more men working part-time?" rather than "why aren't more women working full-time?" And more general: up to a few decades ago it was entirely normal for a single earner to support an entire family and still have money for a yearly holiday. Now that's much harder financially, if not outright impossible. Something really profound changed in our economy with seemingly few people noticing or commenting on it.
  - ok_dad 5y ago
    Men are socialized to work by the same society that women are socialized to stay home and make babies. Feminism's direct goals would be breaking that down so that men could stay home (unfortunately we cannot make babies) and women could work, or any other combination, without the traditional gender role boundaries. Feminism's goals are good for everyone.
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      You are talking about a subset of reasonable feminists. Feminism also contains the culture that wants six year old boys to be held back, feel shame and suffer for the sins of their fathers. Feminism also contains the idea that being a man is some kind of disease, something to be ashamed of.
      - ok_dad 5y ago
        There are examples of men who want women to be chained to the kitchen; we should consider the reasonable views though, and not throw the baby out with the bath water. Ignore the fringe elements, even though that’s the thing that the media and social algorithms push since they’re the most “engaging”. They are the small minority.
- worik 5y ago
  I did. It was great. Until my children grew up and I rejoined the workforce. That has been a struggle.
  - boringg 5y ago
    I figure this is the tough transition once the kids are older and try to get back into the career-mode after a long hiatus. I hope you are finding your footing.
  - drewzero1 5y ago
    I think this is unfortunately a common issue among those who leave the workforce to raise children; looking back, it certainly seems to match my mother's experience. I'm preparing to follow that path as well but hoping to keep up by doing small projects or piecework at home when I can.
frenchy 5y ago
I, for one, would like it, and I think I'd like it more than my wife. My personality is well suited to being a stay at home parent. I like chaos, and I like working with my hands. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of reduced-hour programming jobs, and our financial situation isn't such that one of us can be full-time stay-at-home. Another thing is that it's awkard for breast-feeding women to be away from their babies for long times, and formula comes with its own set of problems.
- worik 5y ago
  > Another thing is that it's awkard for breast-feeding women to be away from their babies for long times, and formula comes with its own set of problems. True. But it is a short period.
- newaccount74 5y ago
  You can do consulting part time, or go indie, then you can work as much or as little as you want. As a programmer you really have a lot of options. Or adjust your lifestyle to not need to earn so much. If you really want to stay home, there's probably a way to make it work.
giantg2 5y ago
Regardless of gender, it seems rare that only one partner would be making more than enough to support the family. It's very difficult to make ends meet with a family on a single salary these days (without assistance; and what about saving for retirement? ).
- astrange 5y ago
  A dual-income family isn’t necessarily evidence that you need two incomes to survive. Rather, it just means there’s a lot of things out there to buy, so it's worth paying for childcare to earn more money. It’s also a sign that the gender income gap decreased, because it’s worth both people’s time to work. It’s not worth womens’ time to work either when the family is poor (because they can’t earn much and might as well do home/childcare labor) or rich (because the amount one partner can add with a job effectively doesn't matter). This means the easiest way to get back to a one-income family is to lower womens’ wages again, so you probably shouldn’t wish for it.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Most families need two incomes in my experience. "This means the easiest way to get back to a one-income family is to lower womens’ wages again, so you probably shouldn’t wish for it." There's no connection to this and the rest of your post. It also assumes that families don't need two incomes to stay out of poverty or off of assistance. The easiest ways according to your post is to make a family poor or rich.
    - astrange 5y ago
      > Most families need two incomes in my experience. Probably depends on the neighborhood - there's claims in this thread that single motherhood is up, but those can't both be true. (I don't have any evidence to add here.) > The easiest ways according to your post is to make a family poor or rich. Yes, but making someone poor's a lot easier. Murphy's law, y'know.
      - giantg2 5y ago
nicoburns 5y ago
Does doing the actual childcare not constitute providing for their family? I'd argue that if men see bringing in an income as providing and not other things (and I don't think that's universal at all) then that's entirely cultural.
- decafninja 5y ago
  "Providing for the family" traditionally refers to bringing in an income. Of course technically that's not the only thing, but for argument's sake. I'm curious - are there any human cultures where the woman was the traditionally (as in, not a recent modern phenomenon) the breadwinner and the men stayed at home? I know there are cultures that were matriarchal in leadership, and that there are animal species (i.e. lions) where the female does the hunting. But were there any true "Amazon" cultures in the past?
  - staticman2 5y ago
    Women needed to stay with the kids to breastfeed. Baby formula was only invented around 1865. Any traditional culture is going to need women to stay with the babies to keep them from starving. However women would take babies with them while doing things like picking nuts and berries.
    - tsol 5y ago
      Wetnurses were employed when a mother wasn't in a position to breastfeed babies for thousands of years
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
micromacrofoot 5y ago
anecdotally I would love to spend all my time taking care of my kids, cooking, cleaning, etc… I find it much more enjoyable than working for someone else
silent_cal 5y ago
I think you're right.

ok_dad 5y ago

Personally, I would love to quit working and take care of my family at home. I find much more joy in that than working a programming career. I think a lot of men have been conditioned to think we have to be the provider much like women have been conditioned to think they have to be a homemaker.

danbolt 5y ago
Agreed; I think a lot of the shame deviating from that is both internalized and external.
mekal 5y ago
I'm in the same boat as you, but I think it's important to remember another factor besides conditioning. It's much easier to say "I would love to quit" when you have a job than it is to be happy not having a job when you aren't sure if you could actually get one to begin with. Similarly, if you know you could take someone in a fight, and they challenge you in public...its easier in that case to "take the high road" and walk away than it would be if you knew you would lose the fight, or you weren't confident you would win. The people in the latter case are much more likely to feel shame and/or resentment towards the aggressor later on. I think with "power" like that its easier to make the best choice in many cases. It's a shame too...I know a few people that are miserable because they don't have a "real job", even though they don't really need one financially. That lack of power keeps them from being happy and choosing the lifestyle that would obviously be best otherwise.
- ok_dad 5y ago
  I don't really understand your comment, sorry! However, in my case, I think taking care of my family would be my "real job" since it actually takes a lot of effort! My wife does a lot around here, and I consider her work as integral to our family's well-being as my work; maybe even moreso.
Beltalowda 5y ago
Indeed; how is it fair that men are "forced" to work and provide income (with all the stress associated for that, especially for low-earners) and are "forced" to miss out on their kids? It seems to me that's just as much of an injustice as women being "forced" to stay at home. ("forced" in quotes as it's not strongly forced, but rather "forced" by expectations, prospects, etc.) I've long considered traditional gender roles of man works and provides income and woman raises kids and cooks to be unfair to both genders and a general issue that affects everyone, and not really a "feminist" issue as such (or rather, not exclusively feminist). In my country there's been a lot of discussion that a lot of women are working part-time rather than full-time, with many claiming this is horrible and evidence of discrimination. Maybe that plays a part, but it seems to me the real question is "why aren't more men working part-time?" rather than "why aren't more women working full-time?" And more general: up to a few decades ago it was entirely normal for a single earner to support an entire family and still have money for a yearly holiday. Now that's much harder financially, if not outright impossible. Something really profound changed in our economy with seemingly few people noticing or commenting on it.
- ok_dad 5y ago
  Men are socialized to work by the same society that women are socialized to stay home and make babies. Feminism's direct goals would be breaking that down so that men could stay home (unfortunately we cannot make babies) and women could work, or any other combination, without the traditional gender role boundaries. Feminism's goals are good for everyone.
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    You are talking about a subset of reasonable feminists. Feminism also contains the culture that wants six year old boys to be held back, feel shame and suffer for the sins of their fathers. Feminism also contains the idea that being a man is some kind of disease, something to be ashamed of.
    - ok_dad 5y ago
      There are examples of men who want women to be chained to the kitchen; we should consider the reasonable views though, and not throw the baby out with the bath water. Ignore the fringe elements, even though that’s the thing that the media and social algorithms push since they’re the most “engaging”. They are the small minority.
worik 5y ago
I did. It was great. Until my children grew up and I rejoined the workforce. That has been a struggle.
- boringg 5y ago
  I figure this is the tough transition once the kids are older and try to get back into the career-mode after a long hiatus. I hope you are finding your footing.
- drewzero1 5y ago
  I think this is unfortunately a common issue among those who leave the workforce to raise children; looking back, it certainly seems to match my mother's experience. I'm preparing to follow that path as well but hoping to keep up by doing small projects or piecework at home when I can.

frenchy 5y ago

I, for one, would like it, and I think I'd like it more than my wife. My personality is well suited to being a stay at home parent. I like chaos, and I like working with my hands. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of reduced-hour programming jobs, and our financial situation isn't such that one of us can be full-time stay-at-home. Another thing is that it's awkard for breast-feeding women to be away from their babies for long times, and formula comes with its own set of problems.

worik 5y ago
> Another thing is that it's awkard for breast-feeding women to be away from their babies for long times, and formula comes with its own set of problems. True. But it is a short period.
newaccount74 5y ago
You can do consulting part time, or go indie, then you can work as much or as little as you want. As a programmer you really have a lot of options. Or adjust your lifestyle to not need to earn so much. If you really want to stay home, there's probably a way to make it work.

giantg2 5y ago

Regardless of gender, it seems rare that only one partner would be making more than enough to support the family. It's very difficult to make ends meet with a family on a single salary these days (without assistance; and what about saving for retirement? ).

astrange 5y ago
A dual-income family isn’t necessarily evidence that you need two incomes to survive. Rather, it just means there’s a lot of things out there to buy, so it's worth paying for childcare to earn more money. It’s also a sign that the gender income gap decreased, because it’s worth both people’s time to work. It’s not worth womens’ time to work either when the family is poor (because they can’t earn much and might as well do home/childcare labor) or rich (because the amount one partner can add with a job effectively doesn't matter). This means the easiest way to get back to a one-income family is to lower womens’ wages again, so you probably shouldn’t wish for it.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Most families need two incomes in my experience. "This means the easiest way to get back to a one-income family is to lower womens’ wages again, so you probably shouldn’t wish for it." There's no connection to this and the rest of your post. It also assumes that families don't need two incomes to stay out of poverty or off of assistance. The easiest ways according to your post is to make a family poor or rich.
  - astrange 5y ago
    > Most families need two incomes in my experience. Probably depends on the neighborhood - there's claims in this thread that single motherhood is up, but those can't both be true. (I don't have any evidence to add here.) > The easiest ways according to your post is to make a family poor or rich. Yes, but making someone poor's a lot easier. Murphy's law, y'know.
    - giantg2 5y ago

nicoburns 5y ago

Does doing the actual childcare not constitute providing for their family? I'd argue that if men see bringing in an income as providing and not other things (and I don't think that's universal at all) then that's entirely cultural.

decafninja 5y ago
"Providing for the family" traditionally refers to bringing in an income. Of course technically that's not the only thing, but for argument's sake. I'm curious - are there any human cultures where the woman was the traditionally (as in, not a recent modern phenomenon) the breadwinner and the men stayed at home? I know there are cultures that were matriarchal in leadership, and that there are animal species (i.e. lions) where the female does the hunting. But were there any true "Amazon" cultures in the past?
- staticman2 5y ago
  Women needed to stay with the kids to breastfeed. Baby formula was only invented around 1865. Any traditional culture is going to need women to stay with the babies to keep them from starving. However women would take babies with them while doing things like picking nuts and berries.
  - tsol 5y ago
    Wetnurses were employed when a mother wasn't in a position to breastfeed babies for thousands of years
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

micromacrofoot 5y ago

anecdotally I would love to spend all my time taking care of my kids, cooking, cleaning, etc… I find it much more enjoyable than working for someone else

silent_cal 5y ago

I think you're right.