11 ms·

Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

133 points by sohkamyung 5y ago

maw 5y ago
I wouldn't set my hopes too high because of this. It's just all too prone to pee hacking.
bitwize 5y ago
- cree 5y ago
- dang 5y ago
  Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments, flamebait comments, and ideological battle comments to Hacker News? You've been doing it repeatedly. We've asked you to stop many times over many years. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29212633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29212633 (Nov 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26418766 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26418766 (March 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25563542 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25563542 (Dec 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22050749 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22050749 (Jan 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20356769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20356769 (July 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20350618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20350618 (July 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20054704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20054704 (May 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18797087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18797087 (Dec 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18114166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18114166 (Oct 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18034335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18034335 (Sept 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17517586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17517586 (July 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14577510 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14577510 (June 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13970380 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13970380 (March 2017) At some point, we're going to have to stop cutting you all this slack and ban you. I don't want to ban you, because you also post good comments. But the damage caused by your bad comments is not ok, and we need you to take care of this. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
apwheele 5y ago
I wonder what the 40% who wouldn't eat food fertilized by urine think about the fact that urea is a common cow feed supplement.
- alamortsubite 5y ago
  I wonder how many of them also wanted to be an astronaut when they were kids.
unglaublich 5y ago
Might be interesting to take a look at the past as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil
BrianOnHN 5y ago
Jokes aside, last year an algae bloom in Tampa bay killed mega-tons of sea life, dolphins, sea turtles, Goliath groupers, and all. And the neurotoxin that does the damage also harms people! For a little perspective, Tampa bay still hasn't recovered from the last red tide event in 2017 which is evident by the specific fishing regulations implemented for the area.
- jimkri 5y ago
  I found a study recently that points to the Mississippi river as one of the main contributors to the red tide. The extra nutrients that are coming down the river and going into the gulf is the problem.
mooreds 5y ago
If you are interested in this topic, you should also check out this short book: https://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Gold-Logic-Using-Plants/dp/0966678311 https://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Gold-Logic-Using-Plants/dp/096...
danw1979 5y ago
> According to Simha’s estimates, humans produce enough urine to replace about one-quarter of current nitrogen and phosphorus fertilizers worldwide They have got to be taking the piss. So worth the downvotes.
- danw1979 5y ago
  … but seriously, this astonished me. Would love to see the rough calculation behind this. My biochemistry isn’t nearly good enough to begin to replicate this estimate.
  - voxadam 5y ago
    Regardless of the biochem possibilities I wonder about the engineering realities required to collect, isolate, purify, and distribute the urea and other nitrogen rich compounds from the waste stream.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    On a theoretical level, all these fertilizers get added just so the soil doesn't get depleted by what gets driven away to the field and eaten by city-dwelling humans, so it kind of makes sense that they get delivered to our bodies and then expelled.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > They have got to be taking the piss. The origin of this phrase (I am certain you know and merely detailing for others) is literally in the once-financially-viable business of collecting urine (from public houses, outdoor toilets, and even private houses) because it was a valuable source of ammonia before the invention of the (from memory, Haber-Bosch?) process for its industrial production.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    It was notable that it was more than just "viable", but seriously protected (by nobility) because that ammonia was needed (and a limiting factor in) the production of gunpowder - hence it was a matter of security.
dasKrokodil 5y ago
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/09/recycling-animal-and-human-dung-is-the-key-to-sustainable-farming.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/09/recycling-animal-and... A related article from Low-Tech Magazine, published in 2010.
- skyfaller 5y ago
  Also see https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2021/03/urban-fish-ponds-low-tech-sewage-treatment-for-towns-and-cities.html https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2021/03/urban-fish-ponds-l... The end of that article is kind of sad because it details the reasons these very effective low-tech sewage treatment methods are being phased out, and they are some of the same systemic problems that are preventing climate action worldwide: - low cost of fossil fuels (due to negative externalities) driving out sustainable alternatives - global speculation on real estate / urban sprawl - inadequate regulation of destructive activities Everything will have to change for our civilization to continue in the face of the climate crisis, we must rethink every system our lifestyle relies upon, sewers included.
alamortsubite 5y ago
This is a great article. I didn't know about the urine-trap toilet (discussed about half-way through). It's a very elegant idea that adds very little complexity to the conventional toilet. Dare I say a solution that finally isn't full of sh*t?
mschuster91 5y ago
> That’s in part because urine is rich in nutrients that, instead of polluting water bodies, could go towards fertilizing crops or feed into industrial processes. Huh? We're already producing way too much fertilizer from farm animals, which leads to the situation that countries like the Netherlands [1] and Germany [2] experience a massive oversupply of dung that has to be shipped sometimes hundreds of kilometers because otherwise the fields near the dung sources get way too much nutrients or the dung runoff fucks up river ecosystems. How about using what we actually have right now in abundance instead of building highly complex systems designed to capture tiny amounts of human urine?! [1]: https://www.noord360.eu/2021/02/10/guelletourismus-warum-deutschland-hunderttausende-tonnen-guelle-aus-den-niederlanden-importiert/ https://www.noord360.eu/2021/02/10/guelletourismus-warum-deu... [2]: https://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/drecksgeschaeft-82696 https://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/drecksgeschae...
- manueldp 5y ago
  NPR Planet Money Episode[1] has interesting details around Phosphorous mines in Morocco, [1] https://www.npr.org/transcripts/581149776 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/581149776
- hiptobecubic 5y ago
  We could also stop producing so much dung...
  - dumbfounder 5y ago
    You jest, but I have thought about this. If we all take fiber pills and probiotics will that reduce waste, and also toilet paper consumption? Should we be introducing these things into the water supply like fluoride? (the answer is no, but would be an interesting exercise to see what impact it could have)
    - tazjin 5y ago
      > Should we be introducing these things into the water supply like fluoride? Absolutely not. Not all types of diets need fiber for your digestive system to function properly.
alamortsubite 5y ago
Wouldn't this also mitigate the problem of residual pharmaceuticals in wastewater, at least for aquatic life? The article doesn't say.
DoreenMichele 5y ago
Separating urine from the rest of sewage could mitigate some difficult environmental problems, but there are big obstacles to radically re-engineering one of the most basic aspects of life. I briefly had a project called Pee on a Tree that got mocked and got no traction. This is why Earth is doomed: The simple solutions are derided while people overcomplicate things that don't have to be complicated. Hoomans: Y'all fools deserve your fate and I shall say so in my dissertation for my degree in Human Studies when I get back to Vulcan.
- happimess 5y ago
  I remember when Obama was roundly mocked for suggesting that people improve gas mileage by checking their tire pressure before road trips. Too easy and effective to be worthwhile, I guess.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
throwawaydroid 5y ago
Why not keep the pee and poop mixed, and use it to harvest biomethane? Effluent can still be used as fertilizer after capturing the gas. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0973082615000939 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S097308261...
- kingsloi 5y ago
  Vice did a good documentary on NYC's effort to do just this You Don't Know Shit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNiBZiR_uA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNiBZiR_uA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVGdmE4_h4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVGdmE4_h4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra47l7fihZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra47l7fihZU
  - quiet_cool 5y ago
    Interesting, it looks like most of the liquid gets separated out early on in the process and released downstream(with processing???). Seems like a good opportunity to collect the pee part.
- everforward 5y ago
  From my understanding, it's better for making biomethane if you separate them. The methane comes from feces, and bacteria digest parts of urine into ammonia, which slows down the bacteria that convert feces into methane. > Using an inoculum acclimated to high ammonia concentrations was critical to successful biogas production at these high TAN concentrations. That's what this part is talking about. They intentionally introduced bacteria that were tolerant of high ammonia levels to work around all the ammonia the urine gives off. The wild-type bacteria aren't tolerant of those levels of ammonia, and do a poor job of digesting the feces when mixed.
cube00 5y ago
All that processing sounds expensive, how about the direct approach? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-09/diabetic-hiker-lost-at-cape-le-grand-drinks-pee-to-survive/100816028 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-09/diabetic-hiker-lost-a...
- lisper 5y ago
  Ew.
feketegy 5y ago
Anything but to sanction illegal activities of corporations who are doing the real damage to the Earth.
toraway1234 5y ago
- cute_boi 5y ago
  This is me to be honest. There are so many things we can do, but it seems we are focusing on thing that may only have superficial benefits.
  - pie42000 5y ago
    This is by design. Paper straws are meant to distract your limited focus from things that actually matter.
    - Raidion 5y ago
      Alternately, there are a lot of things we can improve, and doing something small that's easily accomplished gets something done now, increases visibility, and add momentum to do bigger things. I know some states are banning (or limiting) plastic bags now. Does that solve the big problems of container ships burning bunker fuel, oil wells leaking methane, and the huge amounts of plastic caused by drink companies? No, but it definitely makes them look worse, and adds pressure to help make bigger change.
- cultofmetatron 5y ago
  - evilthrow 5y ago
  - 988747 5y ago
    - cultofmetatron 5y ago
jensgk 5y ago
Brewery creates ‘Pisner’ beer using 50,000 litres of urine collected at music festival (Denmark, 2017): https://www.nme.com/news/music/new-pisner-beer-urine-from-music-festival-roskilde-2068540 https://www.nme.com/news/music/new-pisner-beer-urine-from-mu...
- RationPhantoms 5y ago
  I guess Pißwasser was already taken from Grand Theft Auto.
FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
The traditional thing is you mix urine with wood ash. This returns all the nutrient salts to the soil, and nitrogen. My one concern is sodium accumulation. There are some thermal approaches based on solubility curves that sort of work. I'd also be interested in electrochemical and, ideally, biological approaches (can we use biological cell membranes and ion pumps instead of manufactured ones?). Weighing difficulty against impact, this seems under-researched.
ciconia 5y ago
Drying urine, transporting it, this is extremely energy intensive. There's a much simpler solution: composting toilets. Easy to setup, requires very little input (basically just some dry material like wood shavings (i.e. waste from wood processing that you can sometimes get for free) and you're done. The "humanure" mixed with the dry material goes in a compost bin, sits there for two years, then can be applied to the local garden without any problem. If you have a vegetable/fruit garden you're actually closing a loop - giving back to your garden a good chunk of what it gave your body.
- kingsloi 5y ago
  My wife and I rented a Yurt in Fort Collins, CO, near the foot hills of Wyoming. The owner was super eco-conscious/zero-waste. I've not camped for a while, and haven't used anything other than a toilet for years, but something about doing my business in the out house really made the experience 10x better. I think maybe because I feel guilt whenever I flush a toilet that says "3.5-5 gal/flush"... that's a lot of water. I'm not sure the owner used the "humanure", but regardless, it was one less flush.
  - kingsloi 5y ago
    Oops, I meant 3.5-5L/flush.
  - ldiracdelta 5y ago
    One of the weird things about compost toilet is that septic systems exist. If you're on a well in Colorado, you pump up the water, do your business, filter the water through hundreds of feet of earth and then pump up the water again.
    - sgc 5y ago
      Probably not, the water will usually migrate quite a bit before hitting well depth, depending on underlying geology. Composting toilets are also useful in the mountains where septic systems need to be extremely deep or will freeze during the winter. I do see the space for a septic system designed for rotation - ie that uses a pipe material designed to last X number of years that then itself biodegrades, and can be ploughed and the field used once a sufficient safety fallow period has passed.
zabzonk 5y ago
This has been going on for quite a while: https://knowledgenuts.com/2015/05/04/doctors-once-recycled-penicillin-out-of-urine/ https://knowledgenuts.com/2015/05/04/doctors-once-recycled-p...
poppafuze 5y ago
Article skipped the pharmaceutical contamination problem.
mah4k4l 5y ago
It's all about the marketing. I can see it now. The title of that Nature's article should also be the name of the new Lady Gaga's world tour where everybody would be doing lots of nitrous oxide. Plus maybe drag racing as a sideshow so as to compensate the taste differences.
xyst 5y ago
Seems like these systems assume only human urine will go into these storage systems. But in reality, people tend to flush more than just fecal matter, urine, and water down the drain. In order to clean the toilet bowl, people will use highly poisonous cleaning solutions. How will these cleaning solutions mixed with the stored urine affect its usage as a fertilizer? Even if it is eventually dehydrated, wouldn’t some of the cleaning solution still be present? What happens if you send other types of fluid down the “urine only” toilet or system (ie, blood, vomit)? People will even flush drugs, dead pet fish, alcohol and other non-human waste products down the drain. In theory, it sounds like a great way to reduce our carbon footprint. But if they are designing the system on the assumption that people are smart and will only use it as intended then it might actually cause the opposite effect.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- everforward 5y ago
  > In order to clean the toilet bowl, people will use highly poisonous cleaning solutions. How will these cleaning solutions mixed with the stored urine affect its usage as a fertilizer? Even if it is eventually dehydrated, wouldn’t some of the cleaning solution still be present? An interesting implication of that is that bacteria will break down parts of the urine into ammonia, and a little bit for feces but not as much. If someone were to dump bleach into it, it might create chloramine gas. Emphasis on might there; I'm in no way qualified to evaluate that risk.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
c0brac0bra 5y ago
Excellent book on the topic of "humanure": https://www.amazon.com/Humanure-Handbook-4th-Shit-Nutshell/dp/0964425882 https://www.amazon.com/Humanure-Handbook-4th-Shit-Nutshell/d...
- emj 5y ago
  The chapters are available as downloadable PDF:s here https://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html https://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html
- wonder_er 5y ago
  agreed! might be oversharing, but I've started this whole end-to-end process, since buying my house in a city. Going surprisingly well, surprisingly enjoyable. No need to bring in outside fertilizer, not flushing hundreds of gallons of potable water per month into the sewer, and I get top-notch compost to use for growing veggies.
goda90 5y ago
Another idea is to put human waste into properly managed fish ponds that can then be harvested for more food: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2021/03/urban-fish-ponds-low-tech-sewage-treatment-for-towns-and-cities.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2021/03/urban-fish-ponds-low...
errcorrectcode 5y ago
Why stop there? Eliminate the entropic, commingling contamination problem by separately collecting 1, 2 and everything else for resource extraction.
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Lots of article with lots of figures and charts, but not one picture of a block of urine. They claim to have made them and used them for growing (barley?) but apparently never took a picture of one.
aaron695 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cassepipe 5y ago
The wealth of those societies in which the capitalist mode of production prevails, presents itself as an immense accumulation of waste
ThinkBeat 5y ago
Urin suitability may vary. It can contain a lot of recreational drugs, alcohol, prescribed drugs, various other toxins that the kidney is able to sort out. If a person gets really dehydrated the pee is not good at all. (The body can be pretty fantastic at retaining water if it goes all in. What you pee out in this condition is reasonably toxic and there is little of it. Drinking it "survival tip" is not a good idea since the pee is concentrated and toxic. Large scale use of human pee may experience odd side effects due to these factors.

133 points by sohkamyung 5y ago

maw 5y ago

I wouldn't set my hopes too high because of this. It's just all too prone to pee hacking.

bitwize 5y ago

cree 5y ago
dang 5y ago
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments, flamebait comments, and ideological battle comments to Hacker News? You've been doing it repeatedly. We've asked you to stop many times over many years. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29212633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29212633 (Nov 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26418766 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26418766 (March 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25563542 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25563542 (Dec 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22050749 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22050749 (Jan 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20356769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20356769 (July 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20350618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20350618 (July 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20054704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20054704 (May 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18797087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18797087 (Dec 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18114166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18114166 (Oct 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18034335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18034335 (Sept 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17517586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17517586 (July 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14577510 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14577510 (June 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13970380 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13970380 (March 2017) At some point, we're going to have to stop cutting you all this slack and ban you. I don't want to ban you, because you also post good comments. But the damage caused by your bad comments is not ok, and we need you to take care of this. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

apwheele 5y ago

I wonder what the 40% who wouldn't eat food fertilized by urine think about the fact that urea is a common cow feed supplement.

alamortsubite 5y ago
I wonder how many of them also wanted to be an astronaut when they were kids.

unglaublich 5y ago

Might be interesting to take a look at the past as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil

BrianOnHN 5y ago

Jokes aside, last year an algae bloom in Tampa bay killed mega-tons of sea life, dolphins, sea turtles, Goliath groupers, and all. And the neurotoxin that does the damage also harms people! For a little perspective, Tampa bay still hasn't recovered from the last red tide event in 2017 which is evident by the specific fishing regulations implemented for the area.

jimkri 5y ago
I found a study recently that points to the Mississippi river as one of the main contributors to the red tide. The extra nutrients that are coming down the river and going into the gulf is the problem.

mooreds 5y ago

If you are interested in this topic, you should also check out this short book: https://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Gold-Logic-Using-Plants/dp/0966678311 https://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Gold-Logic-Using-Plants/dp/096...

danw1979 5y ago

> According to Simha’s estimates, humans produce enough urine to replace about one-quarter of current nitrogen and phosphorus fertilizers worldwide They have got to be taking the piss. So worth the downvotes.

danw1979 5y ago
… but seriously, this astonished me. Would love to see the rough calculation behind this. My biochemistry isn’t nearly good enough to begin to replicate this estimate.
- voxadam 5y ago
  Regardless of the biochem possibilities I wonder about the engineering realities required to collect, isolate, purify, and distribute the urea and other nitrogen rich compounds from the waste stream.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  On a theoretical level, all these fertilizers get added just so the soil doesn't get depleted by what gets driven away to the field and eaten by city-dwelling humans, so it kind of makes sense that they get delivered to our bodies and then expelled.
unfocussed_mike 5y ago
> They have got to be taking the piss. The origin of this phrase (I am certain you know and merely detailing for others) is literally in the once-financially-viable business of collecting urine (from public houses, outdoor toilets, and even private houses) because it was a valuable source of ammonia before the invention of the (from memory, Haber-Bosch?) process for its industrial production.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  It was notable that it was more than just "viable", but seriously protected (by nobility) because that ammonia was needed (and a limiting factor in) the production of gunpowder - hence it was a matter of security.

dasKrokodil 5y ago

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/09/recycling-animal-and-human-dung-is-the-key-to-sustainable-farming.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/09/recycling-animal-and... A related article from Low-Tech Magazine, published in 2010.

skyfaller 5y ago
Also see https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2021/03/urban-fish-ponds-low-tech-sewage-treatment-for-towns-and-cities.html https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2021/03/urban-fish-ponds-l... The end of that article is kind of sad because it details the reasons these very effective low-tech sewage treatment methods are being phased out, and they are some of the same systemic problems that are preventing climate action worldwide: - low cost of fossil fuels (due to negative externalities) driving out sustainable alternatives - global speculation on real estate / urban sprawl - inadequate regulation of destructive activities Everything will have to change for our civilization to continue in the face of the climate crisis, we must rethink every system our lifestyle relies upon, sewers included.

alamortsubite 5y ago

This is a great article. I didn't know about the urine-trap toilet (discussed about half-way through). It's a very elegant idea that adds very little complexity to the conventional toilet. Dare I say a solution that finally isn't full of sh*t?

mschuster91 5y ago

> That’s in part because urine is rich in nutrients that, instead of polluting water bodies, could go towards fertilizing crops or feed into industrial processes. Huh? We're already producing way too much fertilizer from farm animals, which leads to the situation that countries like the Netherlands [1] and Germany [2] experience a massive oversupply of dung that has to be shipped sometimes hundreds of kilometers because otherwise the fields near the dung sources get way too much nutrients or the dung runoff fucks up river ecosystems. How about using what we actually have right now in abundance instead of building highly complex systems designed to capture tiny amounts of human urine?! [1]: https://www.noord360.eu/2021/02/10/guelletourismus-warum-deutschland-hunderttausende-tonnen-guelle-aus-den-niederlanden-importiert/ https://www.noord360.eu/2021/02/10/guelletourismus-warum-deu... [2]: https://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/drecksgeschaeft-82696 https://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/drecksgeschae...

manueldp 5y ago
NPR Planet Money Episode[1] has interesting details around Phosphorous mines in Morocco, [1] https://www.npr.org/transcripts/581149776 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/581149776
hiptobecubic 5y ago
We could also stop producing so much dung...
- dumbfounder 5y ago
  You jest, but I have thought about this. If we all take fiber pills and probiotics will that reduce waste, and also toilet paper consumption? Should we be introducing these things into the water supply like fluoride? (the answer is no, but would be an interesting exercise to see what impact it could have)
  - tazjin 5y ago
    > Should we be introducing these things into the water supply like fluoride? Absolutely not. Not all types of diets need fiber for your digestive system to function properly.

alamortsubite 5y ago

Wouldn't this also mitigate the problem of residual pharmaceuticals in wastewater, at least for aquatic life? The article doesn't say.

DoreenMichele 5y ago

Separating urine from the rest of sewage could mitigate some difficult environmental problems, but there are big obstacles to radically re-engineering one of the most basic aspects of life. I briefly had a project called Pee on a Tree that got mocked and got no traction. This is why Earth is doomed: The simple solutions are derided while people overcomplicate things that don't have to be complicated. Hoomans: Y'all fools deserve your fate and I shall say so in my dissertation for my degree in Human Studies when I get back to Vulcan.

happimess 5y ago
I remember when Obama was roundly mocked for suggesting that people improve gas mileage by checking their tire pressure before road trips. Too easy and effective to be worthwhile, I guess.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

throwawaydroid 5y ago

Why not keep the pee and poop mixed, and use it to harvest biomethane? Effluent can still be used as fertilizer after capturing the gas. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0973082615000939 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S097308261...

kingsloi 5y ago
Vice did a good documentary on NYC's effort to do just this You Don't Know Shit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNiBZiR_uA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNiBZiR_uA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVGdmE4_h4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVGdmE4_h4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra47l7fihZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra47l7fihZU
- quiet_cool 5y ago
  Interesting, it looks like most of the liquid gets separated out early on in the process and released downstream(with processing???). Seems like a good opportunity to collect the pee part.
everforward 5y ago
From my understanding, it's better for making biomethane if you separate them. The methane comes from feces, and bacteria digest parts of urine into ammonia, which slows down the bacteria that convert feces into methane. > Using an inoculum acclimated to high ammonia concentrations was critical to successful biogas production at these high TAN concentrations. That's what this part is talking about. They intentionally introduced bacteria that were tolerant of high ammonia levels to work around all the ammonia the urine gives off. The wild-type bacteria aren't tolerant of those levels of ammonia, and do a poor job of digesting the feces when mixed.

cube00 5y ago

All that processing sounds expensive, how about the direct approach? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-09/diabetic-hiker-lost-at-cape-le-grand-drinks-pee-to-survive/100816028 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-09/diabetic-hiker-lost-a...

lisper 5y ago
Ew.

feketegy 5y ago

Anything but to sanction illegal activities of corporations who are doing the real damage to the Earth.

toraway1234 5y ago

cute_boi 5y ago
This is me to be honest. There are so many things we can do, but it seems we are focusing on thing that may only have superficial benefits.
- pie42000 5y ago
  This is by design. Paper straws are meant to distract your limited focus from things that actually matter.
  - Raidion 5y ago
    Alternately, there are a lot of things we can improve, and doing something small that's easily accomplished gets something done now, increases visibility, and add momentum to do bigger things. I know some states are banning (or limiting) plastic bags now. Does that solve the big problems of container ships burning bunker fuel, oil wells leaking methane, and the huge amounts of plastic caused by drink companies? No, but it definitely makes them look worse, and adds pressure to help make bigger change.
cultofmetatron 5y ago
- evilthrow 5y ago
- 988747 5y ago
  - cultofmetatron 5y ago

jensgk 5y ago

Brewery creates ‘Pisner’ beer using 50,000 litres of urine collected at music festival (Denmark, 2017): https://www.nme.com/news/music/new-pisner-beer-urine-from-music-festival-roskilde-2068540 https://www.nme.com/news/music/new-pisner-beer-urine-from-mu...

RationPhantoms 5y ago
I guess Pißwasser was already taken from Grand Theft Auto.

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago

The traditional thing is you mix urine with wood ash. This returns all the nutrient salts to the soil, and nitrogen. My one concern is sodium accumulation. There are some thermal approaches based on solubility curves that sort of work. I'd also be interested in electrochemical and, ideally, biological approaches (can we use biological cell membranes and ion pumps instead of manufactured ones?). Weighing difficulty against impact, this seems under-researched.

ciconia 5y ago

Drying urine, transporting it, this is extremely energy intensive. There's a much simpler solution: composting toilets. Easy to setup, requires very little input (basically just some dry material like wood shavings (i.e. waste from wood processing that you can sometimes get for free) and you're done. The "humanure" mixed with the dry material goes in a compost bin, sits there for two years, then can be applied to the local garden without any problem. If you have a vegetable/fruit garden you're actually closing a loop - giving back to your garden a good chunk of what it gave your body.

kingsloi 5y ago
My wife and I rented a Yurt in Fort Collins, CO, near the foot hills of Wyoming. The owner was super eco-conscious/zero-waste. I've not camped for a while, and haven't used anything other than a toilet for years, but something about doing my business in the out house really made the experience 10x better. I think maybe because I feel guilt whenever I flush a toilet that says "3.5-5 gal/flush"... that's a lot of water. I'm not sure the owner used the "humanure", but regardless, it was one less flush.
- kingsloi 5y ago
  Oops, I meant 3.5-5L/flush.
- ldiracdelta 5y ago
  One of the weird things about compost toilet is that septic systems exist. If you're on a well in Colorado, you pump up the water, do your business, filter the water through hundreds of feet of earth and then pump up the water again.
  - sgc 5y ago
    Probably not, the water will usually migrate quite a bit before hitting well depth, depending on underlying geology. Composting toilets are also useful in the mountains where septic systems need to be extremely deep or will freeze during the winter. I do see the space for a septic system designed for rotation - ie that uses a pipe material designed to last X number of years that then itself biodegrades, and can be ploughed and the field used once a sufficient safety fallow period has passed.

zabzonk 5y ago

This has been going on for quite a while: https://knowledgenuts.com/2015/05/04/doctors-once-recycled-penicillin-out-of-urine/ https://knowledgenuts.com/2015/05/04/doctors-once-recycled-p...

poppafuze 5y ago

Article skipped the pharmaceutical contamination problem.

mah4k4l 5y ago

It's all about the marketing. I can see it now. The title of that Nature's article should also be the name of the new Lady Gaga's world tour where everybody would be doing lots of nitrous oxide. Plus maybe drag racing as a sideshow so as to compensate the taste differences.

xyst 5y ago

Seems like these systems assume only human urine will go into these storage systems. But in reality, people tend to flush more than just fecal matter, urine, and water down the drain. In order to clean the toilet bowl, people will use highly poisonous cleaning solutions. How will these cleaning solutions mixed with the stored urine affect its usage as a fertilizer? Even if it is eventually dehydrated, wouldn’t some of the cleaning solution still be present? What happens if you send other types of fluid down the “urine only” toilet or system (ie, blood, vomit)? People will even flush drugs, dead pet fish, alcohol and other non-human waste products down the drain. In theory, it sounds like a great way to reduce our carbon footprint. But if they are designing the system on the assumption that people are smart and will only use it as intended then it might actually cause the opposite effect.

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everforward 5y ago
> In order to clean the toilet bowl, people will use highly poisonous cleaning solutions. How will these cleaning solutions mixed with the stored urine affect its usage as a fertilizer? Even if it is eventually dehydrated, wouldn’t some of the cleaning solution still be present? An interesting implication of that is that bacteria will break down parts of the urine into ammonia, and a little bit for feces but not as much. If someone were to dump bleach into it, it might create chloramine gas. Emphasis on might there; I'm in no way qualified to evaluate that risk.
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c0brac0bra 5y ago

Excellent book on the topic of "humanure": https://www.amazon.com/Humanure-Handbook-4th-Shit-Nutshell/dp/0964425882 https://www.amazon.com/Humanure-Handbook-4th-Shit-Nutshell/d...

emj 5y ago
The chapters are available as downloadable PDF:s here https://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html https://humanurehandbook.com/contents.html
wonder_er 5y ago
agreed! might be oversharing, but I've started this whole end-to-end process, since buying my house in a city. Going surprisingly well, surprisingly enjoyable. No need to bring in outside fertilizer, not flushing hundreds of gallons of potable water per month into the sewer, and I get top-notch compost to use for growing veggies.

goda90 5y ago

Another idea is to put human waste into properly managed fish ponds that can then be harvested for more food: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2021/03/urban-fish-ponds-low-tech-sewage-treatment-for-towns-and-cities.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2021/03/urban-fish-ponds-low...

errcorrectcode 5y ago

Why stop there? Eliminate the entropic, commingling contamination problem by separately collecting 1, 2 and everything else for resource extraction.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago

Lots of article with lots of figures and charts, but not one picture of a block of urine. They claim to have made them and used them for growing (barley?) but apparently never took a picture of one.

aaron695 5y ago

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cassepipe 5y ago

The wealth of those societies in which the capitalist mode of production prevails, presents itself as an immense accumulation of waste

ThinkBeat 5y ago

Urin suitability may vary. It can contain a lot of recreational drugs, alcohol, prescribed drugs, various other toxins that the kidney is able to sort out. If a person gets really dehydrated the pee is not good at all. (The body can be pretty fantastic at retaining water if it goes all in. What you pee out in this condition is reasonably toxic and there is little of it. Drinking it "survival tip" is not a good idea since the pee is concentrated and toxic. Large scale use of human pee may experience odd side effects due to these factors.