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This is no shock if you are friends with any teachers or have kids of school age. My wife and I have 5 close friends who are all public school teachers (2 of t

This is no shock if you are friends with any teachers or have kids of school age. My wife and I have 5 close friends who are all public school teachers (2 of the 5 are a married couple). 4 of the 5 send their kids to private schools. I think that says a lot, given that they aren't paid well and choose to sacrifice and pay the tuition. The harsh reality is that the pay sucks, you need a masters degree to even be a teacher, parents view public schools as glorified daycare system, and shitty bureaucrats run it all into the ground. Combined with the general lack of discipline and culture of disrespect among kids (I fault the parents), it's a completely miserable experience that was worsened by COVID and remote learning. I've heard so many ridiculous stories from our friends that I'm shocked any of them remain doing it. In fact, 1 of the 5 I mentioned had enough and threw in the towel for the 21-22 school year. She's doing something else now, like running a study abroad program in association with the local honors university. She only gets the smart, disciplined kids who want to be there. The house of cards that is public education is coming down.

908B64B197 5y ago
> 4 of the 5 send their kids to private schools. I think that says a lot, given that they aren't paid well and choose to sacrifice and pay the tuition. […] it's a completely miserable experience that was worsened by COVID and remote learning. Some parents around me simply decided to go ahead with a learning pod [0] during the pandemic. They hired a tutor (burned out local teacher really) and it’s been night and day. They are considering doing it again next year. Last I heard, they wanted to structure it as a non-profit so they could at least get a tax break on their contribution to it (really makes no sense to use post-tax dollars for this). At least now, I guess they won’t be double paying for initiatives like this [1] or curriculum where math is considered racist [2]. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/article/learning-pods-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/learning-pods-coronavirus.ht... [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/San-Francisco-school-board-s-antics-would-be-15948058.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/Sa... [2] https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pelasaco 5y ago
My wife is teacher in the elementary school, and we have the same issues. Now with covid restrictions, changing all the time, is really hard to be sure that you are not braking any rule. One consideration however regarding your comment: " parents view public schools as glorified daycare system" We shouldn't forget that it is not just for the teachers that the world is getting complicated. Almost everyone is lost with family, job, personal happiness and etc.
rgrieselhuber 5y ago
And homeschooling is skyrocketing nationwide as more parents decide to pull their kids from government schools. Long-term, I think we will see an even greater move in this direction.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  I'd like to be excited about homeschooling and other alternate-schooling, but unfortunately my anecdotal experience with people (acquaintances, sometimes co-workers) who were the outcome of homeschooling biases me. The theory is great: DIY things that you can do better than the "pros". I DIY almost all the maintenance on my house, so it makes sense that one could possibly teach better than public school teachers. But then you look at the actual reasons people are homeschooling, and by and large, it's parents who are opposing some perceived "indoctrination": Fundamentalist Christians objecting to things like sex ed, biology, evolution. More and more now, it looks like it's not just being driven by religion but by political ideology. Our local "moms" group is full of people pulling their kids out to prevent them from "being indoctrinated by the liberals" and for anti-vax reasons. For every 1 parent homeschooling because they really can provide a better education at home, there are probably 100 parents who are totally unqualified, will leave huge gaps in their kids' education, and are only doing it for ideological reasons. In theory, having a smart parent at home DIYing their kids' education sounds like a great idea, but in practice, it's all the wrong people doing it for all the wrong reasons.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    It’s good that you are aware these individuals have influenced your bias in this area. The “DIY vs professional” mental model is not as helpful as other perspectives when evaluating homeschooling. Homeschooling is an extension of parenting, something we do not outsource outside of extreme situations, often involving criminal behavior. The ideal child-curriculum-pedagogy fit for each stage of growth for each child varies so much that understanding the child is a valuable educational skill. Parents are in a unique position to exercise this skill. Where teachers do outperform parents as professionals is in leading a group of students to achieve standards in tandem within a large bureaucracy. The skill of deep per-child customization and response becomes less important than skills like public speaking, organizational psychology, reporting and forming rapport with strangers. Trained teachers outperform any particular child’s parent in these tasks.
cgriswald 5y ago
> Combined with the general lack of discipline and culture of disrespect among kids (I fault the parents)... In what capacity do you blame the parents?
- goda90 5y ago
  Schools are very limited in the ways they can discipline children. On top of that, they are dealing with ~30 children to one adult. A child's guardian is the only one in a position to effectively teach them to be respectful of others.
  - cgriswald 5y ago
    Well, that's sort of why I asked the question. The poster may blame the parents for not teaching their children; or may blame the parents for hamstringing the schools' ability to foster a respectful environment. I was successful in raising a respectful child. However, I also pulled him out of two very negative school environments (one public, one private). Regardless of what lessons I taught him, I am sure it would not have been easy to encourage that respect if he had remained in an environment where he was not respected and where he saw adults and children alike treated with disrespect without consequence.
  - bcrosby95 5y ago
    And parents only really have weekends. I think peers (other kids) have the most influence with the way things are structured now.
- pfortuny 5y ago
  Discipline and respect to authority must be taught at home, not at school.
johnnyb9 5y ago
I always thought a significant benefit of being a teacher is receiving a pension, summers off, government benefits, not necessarily pay. https://www.aei.org/articles/no-teachers-are-not-underpaid/ https://www.aei.org/articles/no-teachers-are-not-underpaid/
- fredophile 5y ago
  Sounds nice as long as things like the pension are actually funded. Not so great if you worked for years of lower pay only to find out that your pension is being cut because your employer didn't put aside as much money as they were supposed to.
- aweiland 5y ago
  Ah yes, AEI. A bastion of neutrality with no agenda against public schools.
- bastawhiz 5y ago
  If you can't pay a mortgage or feed a family, summers off and pension aren't useful. Teachers don't have equity like many other industries. They pretty much universally don't get bonuses. The mindset that teachers have something that offsets the embarrassingly low salaries that we offer them is the result of decades of politicians trying to justify cutting money from education.
  - noelsusman 5y ago
    Equity and significant bonuses aren't really a thing in any industry outside of the upper echelons of tech and finance.
  - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
    Public school teachers belong to unions and have lifetime pensions. Many of them have their educational loans forgiven after a certain number of years of service. https://laschoolreport.com/antonucci-retiring-california-teachers-will-earn-more-than-working-teachers-in-24-states/ https://laschoolreport.com/antonucci-retiring-california-tea... : retiring ca teachers will eat more than working school teachers.
giantg2 5y ago
"you need a masters degree to even be a teacher" Really? The states I've been in doesn't require it. Generally a bachelor degree with a teaching certificate is all you need.
- Jtsummers 5y ago
  That sets a cap on the salary. In the US southeast (last place I took a long look at the numbers, in NC and GA, but other states had similar numbers I just didn't study them closely), typically capping out with a bachelors at between $50-60k/year after 20-30 years. A masters degree often confers a $5-10k increase in salary, and a doctorate of education getting another $10k+ increase. So, no, you don't really need a masters to be a teacher in the US. But you will be perpetually at the bottom of the pay scale if you don't get one, aren't in an in-demand subject area, or obtain some useful and in-demand specialist certificates. GA: https://www.gadoe.org/Technology-Services/Data-Collections/Documents/CPI%20Documentation/FY2021/FY2021%20Salary%20Schedule.pdf https://www.gadoe.org/Technology-Services/Data-Collections/D... (updated to 2021 PDF, fixed link again not sure how that got goofed before) The T-# levels are certification levels, largely dependent on getting a graduate degree or specialists degree or certificate. Without those, you will stay at the lower tiers. School districts do offer pay above and beyond this, but unless you're in a wealthier district you won't get much past these numbers.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Yeah, I'm familiar with the pay being tied to the attributes, location, etc. That's why I was asking if there was a state that actually requires a masters.
- doktorhladnjak 5y ago
  This varies state by state. In several states, teachers have to complete a masters degree within a certain number of years to keep their job.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Interesting. Do you happen to know which ones or have an example?
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
Teachers are paid quite poorly, expected to do a ton of work, beyond their purview, unsupported by their administration, and regulated like crazy. It's a labor of love. People become teachers because they love the idea of being in that profession. Unfortunately, governments, corporations, parents, and even students, see this as carte blanche to pay them even worse, and yank all support from them. IT is a crazy field. People make a lot of money here, and we are used to being given a fairly free rein. Most folks in IT like their jobs, don't question whether or not we made the right life choices, are valued by our employers and customers, and, on top of that, we make great money. Night and day. It's fairly hard for people to understand what teachers face. I know quite a few. Despite all the crying about teaching jobs being open, it's actually really difficult for teachers to find work; especially work that doesn't involve a two-hours-each-way commute, to teach in neglected urban schools, while being paid far too little to live near their work. It's a tough gig.
- credit_guy 5y ago
  > Teachers are paid quite poorly, expected to do a ton of work, beyond their purview, unsupported by their administration, and regulated like crazy. Everyone can claim the same. Very few people will claim they are paid too well, or they don't have to do thing that don't exactly fit their job description, or their administration/management does not provide them the support they deserve, etc. Oh, and regulation? Lots and lots of trades have to deal with unreasonable regulation, don't ask me how I know. Here's the thing. This is a free country. Nobody's putting a gun at anyone's head and asking them to be a teacher. The teacher job may suck from some points of view, but it probably is quite ok from other points of view (like vacation, maternity leave, maybe benefits, etc). One way or another millions of people decide to be teachers. In the end, I like to tell people: 98% of jobs suck 98% of the time. If you manage to make your job suck only 90% of the time, you're having 5 times more fun than the average worker out there. If your name is Feynman, then probably your job sucks 0% of the time. But your name is not Feynman.
- ergocoder 5y ago
  The craziest part is that most teachers are doubled as law enforcement. If students bully or assault each other? just call the police. Why would we even call teachers to resolve this kind of conflict? Teachers should only teach... not discipline or punishing kids. We should have separate roles for this.
62951413 5y ago
You make it sound like variety and incorporation are less important than math and physics. If only we lived in a democracy where people had a chance to make Orwell fiction again. Do you know which party the very same teachers' union contributes to by a large margin? Those teachers and their families failed to recall CA governor given a unique chance. They contributed to the 2020 election fiasco. Forget about school vouchers, people are happy with the ruling party abolishing algebra and cancelling magnet schools.
andirk 5y ago
> (2 of the 5 are a married couple). 4 of the 5 send their kids to private schools. So 1 of the married couple sends the kids to public school while the other sends those same kids to private school?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- BadCookie 5y ago
  No. The only teacher in the group who doesn’t send their kid to a private school is unmarried or married to a non-teacher. The married teacher couple must send their kid(s) to private school based on what was said.

908B64B197 5y ago

> 4 of the 5 send their kids to private schools. I think that says a lot, given that they aren't paid well and choose to sacrifice and pay the tuition. […] it's a completely miserable experience that was worsened by COVID and remote learning. Some parents around me simply decided to go ahead with a learning pod [0] during the pandemic. They hired a tutor (burned out local teacher really) and it’s been night and day. They are considering doing it again next year. Last I heard, they wanted to structure it as a non-profit so they could at least get a tax break on their contribution to it (really makes no sense to use post-tax dollars for this). At least now, I guess they won’t be double paying for initiatives like this [1] or curriculum where math is considered racist [2]. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/article/learning-pods-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/learning-pods-coronavirus.ht... [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/San-Francisco-school-board-s-antics-would-be-15948058.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/Sa... [2] https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

pelasaco 5y ago

My wife is teacher in the elementary school, and we have the same issues. Now with covid restrictions, changing all the time, is really hard to be sure that you are not braking any rule. One consideration however regarding your comment: " parents view public schools as glorified daycare system" We shouldn't forget that it is not just for the teachers that the world is getting complicated. Almost everyone is lost with family, job, personal happiness and etc.

rgrieselhuber 5y ago

And homeschooling is skyrocketing nationwide as more parents decide to pull their kids from government schools. Long-term, I think we will see an even greater move in this direction.

ryandrake 5y ago
I'd like to be excited about homeschooling and other alternate-schooling, but unfortunately my anecdotal experience with people (acquaintances, sometimes co-workers) who were the outcome of homeschooling biases me. The theory is great: DIY things that you can do better than the "pros". I DIY almost all the maintenance on my house, so it makes sense that one could possibly teach better than public school teachers. But then you look at the actual reasons people are homeschooling, and by and large, it's parents who are opposing some perceived "indoctrination": Fundamentalist Christians objecting to things like sex ed, biology, evolution. More and more now, it looks like it's not just being driven by religion but by political ideology. Our local "moms" group is full of people pulling their kids out to prevent them from "being indoctrinated by the liberals" and for anti-vax reasons. For every 1 parent homeschooling because they really can provide a better education at home, there are probably 100 parents who are totally unqualified, will leave huge gaps in their kids' education, and are only doing it for ideological reasons. In theory, having a smart parent at home DIYing their kids' education sounds like a great idea, but in practice, it's all the wrong people doing it for all the wrong reasons.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  It’s good that you are aware these individuals have influenced your bias in this area. The “DIY vs professional” mental model is not as helpful as other perspectives when evaluating homeschooling. Homeschooling is an extension of parenting, something we do not outsource outside of extreme situations, often involving criminal behavior. The ideal child-curriculum-pedagogy fit for each stage of growth for each child varies so much that understanding the child is a valuable educational skill. Parents are in a unique position to exercise this skill. Where teachers do outperform parents as professionals is in leading a group of students to achieve standards in tandem within a large bureaucracy. The skill of deep per-child customization and response becomes less important than skills like public speaking, organizational psychology, reporting and forming rapport with strangers. Trained teachers outperform any particular child’s parent in these tasks.

cgriswald 5y ago

> Combined with the general lack of discipline and culture of disrespect among kids (I fault the parents)... In what capacity do you blame the parents?

goda90 5y ago
Schools are very limited in the ways they can discipline children. On top of that, they are dealing with ~30 children to one adult. A child's guardian is the only one in a position to effectively teach them to be respectful of others.
- cgriswald 5y ago
  Well, that's sort of why I asked the question. The poster may blame the parents for not teaching their children; or may blame the parents for hamstringing the schools' ability to foster a respectful environment. I was successful in raising a respectful child. However, I also pulled him out of two very negative school environments (one public, one private). Regardless of what lessons I taught him, I am sure it would not have been easy to encourage that respect if he had remained in an environment where he was not respected and where he saw adults and children alike treated with disrespect without consequence.
- bcrosby95 5y ago
  And parents only really have weekends. I think peers (other kids) have the most influence with the way things are structured now.
pfortuny 5y ago
Discipline and respect to authority must be taught at home, not at school.

johnnyb9 5y ago

I always thought a significant benefit of being a teacher is receiving a pension, summers off, government benefits, not necessarily pay. https://www.aei.org/articles/no-teachers-are-not-underpaid/ https://www.aei.org/articles/no-teachers-are-not-underpaid/

fredophile 5y ago
Sounds nice as long as things like the pension are actually funded. Not so great if you worked for years of lower pay only to find out that your pension is being cut because your employer didn't put aside as much money as they were supposed to.
aweiland 5y ago
Ah yes, AEI. A bastion of neutrality with no agenda against public schools.
bastawhiz 5y ago
If you can't pay a mortgage or feed a family, summers off and pension aren't useful. Teachers don't have equity like many other industries. They pretty much universally don't get bonuses. The mindset that teachers have something that offsets the embarrassingly low salaries that we offer them is the result of decades of politicians trying to justify cutting money from education.
- noelsusman 5y ago
  Equity and significant bonuses aren't really a thing in any industry outside of the upper echelons of tech and finance.
- jelliclesfarm 5y ago
  Public school teachers belong to unions and have lifetime pensions. Many of them have their educational loans forgiven after a certain number of years of service. https://laschoolreport.com/antonucci-retiring-california-teachers-will-earn-more-than-working-teachers-in-24-states/ https://laschoolreport.com/antonucci-retiring-california-tea... : retiring ca teachers will eat more than working school teachers.

giantg2 5y ago

"you need a masters degree to even be a teacher" Really? The states I've been in doesn't require it. Generally a bachelor degree with a teaching certificate is all you need.

Jtsummers 5y ago
That sets a cap on the salary. In the US southeast (last place I took a long look at the numbers, in NC and GA, but other states had similar numbers I just didn't study them closely), typically capping out with a bachelors at between $50-60k/year after 20-30 years. A masters degree often confers a $5-10k increase in salary, and a doctorate of education getting another $10k+ increase. So, no, you don't really need a masters to be a teacher in the US. But you will be perpetually at the bottom of the pay scale if you don't get one, aren't in an in-demand subject area, or obtain some useful and in-demand specialist certificates. GA: https://www.gadoe.org/Technology-Services/Data-Collections/Documents/CPI%20Documentation/FY2021/FY2021%20Salary%20Schedule.pdf https://www.gadoe.org/Technology-Services/Data-Collections/D... (updated to 2021 PDF, fixed link again not sure how that got goofed before) The T-# levels are certification levels, largely dependent on getting a graduate degree or specialists degree or certificate. Without those, you will stay at the lower tiers. School districts do offer pay above and beyond this, but unless you're in a wealthier district you won't get much past these numbers.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm familiar with the pay being tied to the attributes, location, etc. That's why I was asking if there was a state that actually requires a masters.
doktorhladnjak 5y ago
This varies state by state. In several states, teachers have to complete a masters degree within a certain number of years to keep their job.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Interesting. Do you happen to know which ones or have an example?

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

Teachers are paid quite poorly, expected to do a ton of work, beyond their purview, unsupported by their administration, and regulated like crazy. It's a labor of love. People become teachers because they love the idea of being in that profession. Unfortunately, governments, corporations, parents, and even students, see this as carte blanche to pay them even worse, and yank all support from them. IT is a crazy field. People make a lot of money here, and we are used to being given a fairly free rein. Most folks in IT like their jobs, don't question whether or not we made the right life choices, are valued by our employers and customers, and, on top of that, we make great money. Night and day. It's fairly hard for people to understand what teachers face. I know quite a few. Despite all the crying about teaching jobs being open, it's actually really difficult for teachers to find work; especially work that doesn't involve a two-hours-each-way commute, to teach in neglected urban schools, while being paid far too little to live near their work. It's a tough gig.

credit_guy 5y ago
> Teachers are paid quite poorly, expected to do a ton of work, beyond their purview, unsupported by their administration, and regulated like crazy. Everyone can claim the same. Very few people will claim they are paid too well, or they don't have to do thing that don't exactly fit their job description, or their administration/management does not provide them the support they deserve, etc. Oh, and regulation? Lots and lots of trades have to deal with unreasonable regulation, don't ask me how I know. Here's the thing. This is a free country. Nobody's putting a gun at anyone's head and asking them to be a teacher. The teacher job may suck from some points of view, but it probably is quite ok from other points of view (like vacation, maternity leave, maybe benefits, etc). One way or another millions of people decide to be teachers. In the end, I like to tell people: 98% of jobs suck 98% of the time. If you manage to make your job suck only 90% of the time, you're having 5 times more fun than the average worker out there. If your name is Feynman, then probably your job sucks 0% of the time. But your name is not Feynman.
ergocoder 5y ago
The craziest part is that most teachers are doubled as law enforcement. If students bully or assault each other? just call the police. Why would we even call teachers to resolve this kind of conflict? Teachers should only teach... not discipline or punishing kids. We should have separate roles for this.

62951413 5y ago

You make it sound like variety and incorporation are less important than math and physics. If only we lived in a democracy where people had a chance to make Orwell fiction again. Do you know which party the very same teachers' union contributes to by a large margin? Those teachers and their families failed to recall CA governor given a unique chance. They contributed to the 2020 election fiasco. Forget about school vouchers, people are happy with the ruling party abolishing algebra and cancelling magnet schools.

andirk 5y ago

> (2 of the 5 are a married couple). 4 of the 5 send their kids to private schools. So 1 of the married couple sends the kids to public school while the other sends those same kids to private school?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
BadCookie 5y ago
No. The only teacher in the group who doesn’t send their kid to a private school is unmarried or married to a non-teacher. The married teacher couple must send their kid(s) to private school based on what was said.