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The bar is being set high for these vaccines because they are being pushed and mandated with very exaggerated justification, that they will end the pandemic. Ra

The bar is being set high for these vaccines because they are being pushed and mandated with very exaggerated justification, that they will end the pandemic. Rational people will agree that there are significant benefits to the vaccine, but I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that these vaccines will get us to an end state where the virus is no longer circulating. If you want people to go along with a medical intervention, state clearly the expected outcome and don't move the goalposts when the data changes. If the data is strong, you most likely wouldn't need mandates to convince people.

amanaplanacanal 5y ago
Where I live, the goalposts are exactly the same as they were two years ago: don’t let the health care system get overwhelmed. I have no idea what your politicians have been telling you.
- JacobThreeThree 5y ago
  >the goalposts are exactly the same as they were two years ago Shouldn't the politicians have made progress on this issue over the course of two years? At what point is it incompetence or corruption, if the billions being spent to fight the pandemic make zero discernable impact on the most critical issue?
  - thfuran 5y ago
    >Shouldn't the politicians have made progress on this issue over the course of two years? What do you mean? Should they should magically cause the number of doctors and hospitals to double inside two years? >if the billions being spent to fight the pandemic make zero discernable impact on the most critical issue? What leads you to believe that measures such as pushing vaccination haven't been having tremendous impact on that issue?
    - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
      >What leads you to believe that measures such as pushing vaccination haven't been having tremendous impact on that issue? Do you believe that health care systems are currently overwhelmed by COVID?
      - ineedasername 5y ago
        Mainly in areas where many people haven't been vaccinated. Where I'm at, hospitals are fine.
      - sanderjd 5y ago
        If the definition of "overwhelmed" is "past the point of functioning at all" then no. But if the definition is "at the point of functioning with an appreciably lower quality of care", then definitely yes in many areas (less so now, but more so a month ago).
      - edmundsauto 5y ago
        In the United States, they are currently paying traveling nurses up to $10k per week. That is a 500% increase over normal pay. It's so bad that the Texas legislature and Congress are trying to limit interstate commerce and impose wage caps. These gigs are not hard to come by - anyone qualified can easily get them. If that doesn't say "understaffed and overwhelmed", I'm not sure what evidence would.
      - eecc 5y ago
        You don't seem to have an "elective surgery" planned and then cancelled and postponed indefinitely, haven't you. Or a biopsy you cannot have for that worrisome mass down there... all because your local facilities are at capacity trying to keep no-vaxxers alive. Good for you
        JacobThreeThree 5y ago
        I'm sorry, I don't understand the relation between me asking if a poster believes hospitals are overwhelmed, and your comment. I assume you believe hospital systems are still overwhelmed after two years, based on your sentiment.
  - standardUser 5y ago
    In most of the US life has been back to normal (give or take) for a year or more. A lot of people are still dying, but they are primarily higher risk individuals who have chosen not to get the vaccines that have been free and readily available for about a year. So in terms of goalposts, what exactly is your goal? I'd like to see international travel normalize - it's maybe one of the few restrictions I still feel is constraining me - but there is little my government can do about that.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    There's been plenty of progress on the issue of not overwhelming the healthcare system. In the areas with high vaccination rates. Most hospitalizations are by the unvaccinated. In those cases where unvaccinated overwhelm the system, that's not the politicians' fault except for the ones also spreading anti-vaxer misinformation.
  - sanderjd 5y ago
    They did make a lot of progress on it: they supported the extremely fast invention and roll out of vaccines that accomplish these goals. People have refused to take those vaccines and have refused to support politicians mandating that people take them. It is thus outside the hands of the politicians at this point, and in the hands of society at large.
  - dirkt 5y ago
    Where I live (which may be different from the previous poster), the health system has not been overwhelmed yet. So guess that counts as success? We didn't have to rig tents to use as hospitals, burn dead bodies on the street, or to pay exorbitant sums for oxygen on the black market, as it has happened in other countries. And if you ask me, yes, that's worth billions, and a bit of self-discipline.
- nsxwolf 5y ago
  Where I live health systems are not overwhelmed. They were never overwhelmed even before the vaccines. They are occasionally under some pressure here and there like in a bad flu season. But I have to show a vax card to eat in a restaurant.
  - deeg 5y ago
    Is it possible your area is not overwhelmed because vaccinations are required? Here's a medical system overwhelmed in part because vaccination rate is (was) so low: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/coronavirus/article254388264.html https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/coronavirus/article25438...
    - nsxwolf 5y ago
      I believe the vaccines are a big part of why they're not overwhelmed now during the Omicron wave. But we achieved the bulk of our vaccination rate before mandates.
      - aqme28 5y ago
        I’m struggling to understand your point, since we agree that vaccines are working to prevent hospital overflow. Is the issue the method of enforcement (show a card to eat at a restaurant)? Because I can also agree that it’s a little roundabout.
      - basisword 5y ago
        So...let everyone else get vaccinated and fix it, not me?
        tinus_hn 5y ago
        What is the burden that would make this a problem? If the typical narrative is to be believed the unvaccinated are in a much worse position, facing the dangers of terrible disease and death!
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  > don’t let the health care system get overwhelmed So add more capacity. It's an emergency. Find a way to add it. Why are we into this two years and still have this problem? It's inexcusable at this point.
  - umvi 5y ago
    > So add more capacity. It's an emergency. Find a way to add it. We did. The government deployed a floating hospital called the USNS Comfort to NYC to massively increase hospital capacity and... it basically just sat there unused for a month and then left after Governor Cuomo said it wasn't needed.
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      And then rather than celebrate Covid not being nearly as bad as forecast, these same governors doubled down and extended their stay at home orders. It was that day I realized that none of this has a damn thing to do with science or data.
arrrg 5y ago
That’s not the end state anyone who knows anything about this virus is expecting or aiming at at the moment. And it hasn’t been for months and months. Universal vaccination can make the transition of this virus from pandemic to endemic much more pleasant. In terms of deaths, serious cases (with potential long term effects), but also in terms of smoothing out hospital and infrastructure load. In that respect the vaccines are an awesomely effective tool that can greatly reduce suffering with minimal or no real downsides. Side note: an omicron infection is no replacement for the vaccination. Omicron doesn’t confer great immunity against delta and other, “older” virus variants which are still out there, potentially ready to come back next winter.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  "Omicron doesn’t confer great immunity against delta" It is my impression that it actually does, and that is why Delta was outcompeted so fast. If it didn't, both strains would likely co-circulate together.
  - andai 5y ago
    Does anyone know where I can find graphs that show the % of infections that each variant represents over time?
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      I used to see them all the time on Reddit in the r/Coronavirus subreddit. Searching very quickly, I found this from Dec 21, 2021: https://www.statnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/c7efM-omicron-is-likely-the-most-common-variant-in-the-u-s-2.png https://www.statnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/c7efM-om...
    - YZF 5y ago
      BC, Canada: http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/VoC/VoC_Weekly_20220128.pdf http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/VoC/VoC_Weekl...
    - nradov 5y ago
jahnu 5y ago
> I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that these vaccines will get us to an end state where the virus is no longer circulating. Who is saying there is?
- JacobThreeThree 5y ago
  President Biden said you can't get COVID if you get the vaccine, implying it would stop the virus from circulating. >One last thing that’s really important is: We’re not in a position where we think that any virus — including the Delta virus, which is much more transmissible and more deadly in terms of non — unvaccinated people — the vi- — the various shots that people are getting now cover that. They’re — you’re okay. You’re not going to — you’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/07/22/remarks-by-president-biden-in-a-cnn-town-hall-with-don-lemon/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20...
  - zmmmmm 5y ago
    technically, COVID is the disease and SARS-COV-2 is the virus. So the virus can circulate with only a very small fraction of people getting COVID if the vaccines are highly effective.
    - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
      I'm not sure what you're technically proving, but the quote said nothing about "small fraction of people", it was categorical.
      - zmmmmm 5y ago
        refuting your statement: > you can't get COVID if you get the vaccine, implying it would stop the virus from circulating. It is entirely possibly that vaccination can leave a virus circulating while still preventing disease. Whether it does in this specific case is something you could debate, but you can't draw that implication stand alone.
tshaddox 5y ago
Haven’t the older vaccines been mandated for much longer?
- JacobThreeThree 5y ago
  There's never been a vaccine that was mandated in order to conduct basic commerce.
  - danielsju6 5y ago
    Smallpox no? I mean it was criminal to not be vaccinated in many places and upheld by courts. Seems a stronger mandate to me.
    - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
      If you're referring to Jacobson v. Massachusetts, that case was about whether the state has a right to impose a fine on someone who refused to be vaccinated. A fine is very different than being barred from conducting commerce.
      - tshaddox 5y ago
        That seems like a stretch. Physically taking money from you is almost by definition an imposition on one's ability to conduct commerce.
      - danielsju6 5y ago
        In several states it was a criminal charge that could see you fined and/or imprisoned. Having a criminal record bars you from employment and commerce opportunities no? I know wearing a mask and taking the bare minimum to try to control a pandemic that has killed millions infringes on YOUR PRECIOUS FREEDOM but it seems a reasonable trade off for the state. Also what restrictions to basic commerce are you facing? That you can't go get wasted in a bar? Give us a break.
        5y ago
wildpeaks 5y ago
Vaccines are like seat belts: they don't prevent car crashes, but they help you survive them.
- yetanotherath 5y ago
  Good one! Here’s my version for pre-Covid vaccines: Vaccines are like seat belts: they prevent car crashes.
  - headsoup 5y ago
    No they're more like airbags. The don't stop the accident but they do make it immensely more survivable. It's amazing how much we've forgotten about how vaccines and immunity work over the last couple of years.
    - yetanotherath 5y ago
  - cma 5y ago
    Flu vaccines were always described as a pretty stochastic thing and not a guarantee, though that may have been more for uncertainty of which strain ended up dominant.
    - Izkata 5y ago
      Why is why they're colloquially referred to as "flu shots", not "flu vaccines".
  - dTal 5y ago
    - yetanotherath 5y ago
vkou 5y ago
> The bar is being set high for these vaccines because they are being pushed and mandated with very exaggerated justification, that they will end the pandemic. At what point does the justification become 'exaggerated'? Is "This vaccine would have saved the lives of at least half a million Americans in the past two years" not a good enough justification? Is "End the pandemic" the only set of goal posts for vaccination that you will accept? Is not, is there a number of corpses that will be an acceptable justification? How much higher does it have to get? A million? Five? Fifty?
raz32dust 5y ago
What would it take for you to accept that people should get vaccinated by law? Or do you think it should just not be mandated ever?
- nameisname 5y ago
  You do not have to get your child vaccinated. If they're going to mandate vaccines, why haven't they done it already? What would have had to change before the pandemic for you to want them to be mandated?
- mjevans 5y ago
  We already have these requirements for other infectious diseases as well as health codes that cover clothing and sometimes protective equipment and procedure requirements for workers and customers in public settings. I liken masks to the requirement to have at least minimal clothing on. Sanitation is the same (wash your hands, here's how to scrub for 30 seconds).
- dham 5y ago
  No need to require vaccinations for a flash in the pan event. These things come and go. In the grand scheme of things, human civilization, this will be quickly forgotten.
ineedasername 5y ago
Vaccines have mostly eradicated other viruses. It's at least possible we could do the same here if we didn't have such a high level of resistance to getting vaccinated. It was only after (in the US) vaccination rates levelled off and Delta came along that I began hearing people talk about COVID as endemic. As for evidence, the continued efficacy of some vaccines against variants suggests that, with high levels of adoption, it's at least possible that after a few years of periodic boosters and targeting emerging strains that we could have reached an extremely low level of circulation. Also why wouldn't you move the goal posts when the data changes? You get new data, you reevaluate prior assumptions and models, and adjust accordingly. Is there a particular instance you're referring to here?
- Vrondi 5y ago
  When the primary message to the populace is that the vaccine will stop the spread, then the vaccines do not stop infection, large swathes of the public begin to feel lied to.
  - f6v 5y ago
    Where can I read that message? I don’t follow many news channels. But I visited CDC website and their primary message is that vaccines protect from getting seriously ill.
    - recursive 5y ago
      Part of "serious illness" is being ill for longer. The longer you're infected, the more people you're likely to infect. How could vaccination not reduce the spread?
      - toolz 5y ago
    - kipchak 5y ago
      "So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they're going to transmit it," Fauci said. Fauci added that vaccinated people essentially become "dead ends" for the virus to spread within their communities. "When you get vaccinated, you not only protect your own health and that of the family but also you contribute to the community health by preventing the spread of the virus throughout the community," Fauci said. "In other words, you become a dead end to the virus. And when there are a lot of dead ends around, the virus is not going to go anywhere. And that's when you get a point that you have a markedly diminished rate of infection in the community."[1] This is more or less the messaging I recall seeing around the early stages of the vaccine being available. [1]https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-vaccinated-people-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-...
closeparen 5y ago
Hopes are high because if they don’t prevent spread, and breakthrough cases or effects on the unvaccinated/ineligible are bad enough, then there’s no off-ramp for NPIs.
triceratops 5y ago
> If the data is strong, you most likely wouldn't need mandates to convince people. That's an awfully naive and rosy view of "people".
tinus_hn 5y ago
> that they will end the pandemic. And that they will prevent the appearance of mutated strains. Or the corollary that the appearance of mutated strains is to be blamed on people being unvaccinated, either because they don’t have vaccines or don’t want them.
- logic_beats_pro 5y ago
  Oh no, not this talking point again. For the last time, you can spawn mutations regardless of vaccination status.
- dudeDDRrulez 5y ago
  This phenomenon of the unvaccinated being “Petri dishes” for mutations occurs in the vaccinated as well. So let’s not spread misinformation based on a complete misunderstanding on how mutations form in the body. Disagree? No problem, just show me the data that backs up that claim. Certainly not above having my mind changed.
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    I should probably have quoted a larger part: > with very exaggerated justification, that they will end the pandemic

amanaplanacanal 5y ago

Where I live, the goalposts are exactly the same as they were two years ago: don’t let the health care system get overwhelmed. I have no idea what your politicians have been telling you.

JacobThreeThree 5y ago
>the goalposts are exactly the same as they were two years ago Shouldn't the politicians have made progress on this issue over the course of two years? At what point is it incompetence or corruption, if the billions being spent to fight the pandemic make zero discernable impact on the most critical issue?
- thfuran 5y ago
  >Shouldn't the politicians have made progress on this issue over the course of two years? What do you mean? Should they should magically cause the number of doctors and hospitals to double inside two years? >if the billions being spent to fight the pandemic make zero discernable impact on the most critical issue? What leads you to believe that measures such as pushing vaccination haven't been having tremendous impact on that issue?
  - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
    >What leads you to believe that measures such as pushing vaccination haven't been having tremendous impact on that issue? Do you believe that health care systems are currently overwhelmed by COVID?
    - ineedasername 5y ago
      Mainly in areas where many people haven't been vaccinated. Where I'm at, hospitals are fine.
    - sanderjd 5y ago
      If the definition of "overwhelmed" is "past the point of functioning at all" then no. But if the definition is "at the point of functioning with an appreciably lower quality of care", then definitely yes in many areas (less so now, but more so a month ago).
    - edmundsauto 5y ago
      In the United States, they are currently paying traveling nurses up to $10k per week. That is a 500% increase over normal pay. It's so bad that the Texas legislature and Congress are trying to limit interstate commerce and impose wage caps. These gigs are not hard to come by - anyone qualified can easily get them. If that doesn't say "understaffed and overwhelmed", I'm not sure what evidence would.
    - eecc 5y ago
      You don't seem to have an "elective surgery" planned and then cancelled and postponed indefinitely, haven't you. Or a biopsy you cannot have for that worrisome mass down there... all because your local facilities are at capacity trying to keep no-vaxxers alive. Good for you
      - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
        I'm sorry, I don't understand the relation between me asking if a poster believes hospitals are overwhelmed, and your comment. I assume you believe hospital systems are still overwhelmed after two years, based on your sentiment.
- standardUser 5y ago
  In most of the US life has been back to normal (give or take) for a year or more. A lot of people are still dying, but they are primarily higher risk individuals who have chosen not to get the vaccines that have been free and readily available for about a year. So in terms of goalposts, what exactly is your goal? I'd like to see international travel normalize - it's maybe one of the few restrictions I still feel is constraining me - but there is little my government can do about that.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  There's been plenty of progress on the issue of not overwhelming the healthcare system. In the areas with high vaccination rates. Most hospitalizations are by the unvaccinated. In those cases where unvaccinated overwhelm the system, that's not the politicians' fault except for the ones also spreading anti-vaxer misinformation.
- sanderjd 5y ago
  They did make a lot of progress on it: they supported the extremely fast invention and roll out of vaccines that accomplish these goals. People have refused to take those vaccines and have refused to support politicians mandating that people take them. It is thus outside the hands of the politicians at this point, and in the hands of society at large.
- dirkt 5y ago
  Where I live (which may be different from the previous poster), the health system has not been overwhelmed yet. So guess that counts as success? We didn't have to rig tents to use as hospitals, burn dead bodies on the street, or to pay exorbitant sums for oxygen on the black market, as it has happened in other countries. And if you ask me, yes, that's worth billions, and a bit of self-discipline.
nsxwolf 5y ago
Where I live health systems are not overwhelmed. They were never overwhelmed even before the vaccines. They are occasionally under some pressure here and there like in a bad flu season. But I have to show a vax card to eat in a restaurant.
- deeg 5y ago
  Is it possible your area is not overwhelmed because vaccinations are required? Here's a medical system overwhelmed in part because vaccination rate is (was) so low: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/coronavirus/article254388264.html https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/coronavirus/article25438...
  - nsxwolf 5y ago
    I believe the vaccines are a big part of why they're not overwhelmed now during the Omicron wave. But we achieved the bulk of our vaccination rate before mandates.
    - aqme28 5y ago
      I’m struggling to understand your point, since we agree that vaccines are working to prevent hospital overflow. Is the issue the method of enforcement (show a card to eat at a restaurant)? Because I can also agree that it’s a little roundabout.
    - basisword 5y ago
      So...let everyone else get vaccinated and fix it, not me?
      - tinus_hn 5y ago
        What is the burden that would make this a problem? If the typical narrative is to be believed the unvaccinated are in a much worse position, facing the dangers of terrible disease and death!
spookthesunset 5y ago
> don’t let the health care system get overwhelmed So add more capacity. It's an emergency. Find a way to add it. Why are we into this two years and still have this problem? It's inexcusable at this point.
- umvi 5y ago
  > So add more capacity. It's an emergency. Find a way to add it. We did. The government deployed a floating hospital called the USNS Comfort to NYC to massively increase hospital capacity and... it basically just sat there unused for a month and then left after Governor Cuomo said it wasn't needed.
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    And then rather than celebrate Covid not being nearly as bad as forecast, these same governors doubled down and extended their stay at home orders. It was that day I realized that none of this has a damn thing to do with science or data.

arrrg 5y ago

That’s not the end state anyone who knows anything about this virus is expecting or aiming at at the moment. And it hasn’t been for months and months. Universal vaccination can make the transition of this virus from pandemic to endemic much more pleasant. In terms of deaths, serious cases (with potential long term effects), but also in terms of smoothing out hospital and infrastructure load. In that respect the vaccines are an awesomely effective tool that can greatly reduce suffering with minimal or no real downsides. Side note: an omicron infection is no replacement for the vaccination. Omicron doesn’t confer great immunity against delta and other, “older” virus variants which are still out there, potentially ready to come back next winter.

inglor_cz 5y ago
"Omicron doesn’t confer great immunity against delta" It is my impression that it actually does, and that is why Delta was outcompeted so fast. If it didn't, both strains would likely co-circulate together.
- andai 5y ago
  Does anyone know where I can find graphs that show the % of infections that each variant represents over time?
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    I used to see them all the time on Reddit in the r/Coronavirus subreddit. Searching very quickly, I found this from Dec 21, 2021: https://www.statnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/c7efM-omicron-is-likely-the-most-common-variant-in-the-u-s-2.png https://www.statnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/c7efM-om...
  - YZF 5y ago
    BC, Canada: http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/VoC/VoC_Weekly_20220128.pdf http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/VoC/VoC_Weekl...
  - nradov 5y ago

jahnu 5y ago

> I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that these vaccines will get us to an end state where the virus is no longer circulating. Who is saying there is?

JacobThreeThree 5y ago
President Biden said you can't get COVID if you get the vaccine, implying it would stop the virus from circulating. >One last thing that’s really important is: We’re not in a position where we think that any virus — including the Delta virus, which is much more transmissible and more deadly in terms of non — unvaccinated people — the vi- — the various shots that people are getting now cover that. They’re — you’re okay. You’re not going to — you’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/07/22/remarks-by-president-biden-in-a-cnn-town-hall-with-don-lemon/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20...
- zmmmmm 5y ago
  technically, COVID is the disease and SARS-COV-2 is the virus. So the virus can circulate with only a very small fraction of people getting COVID if the vaccines are highly effective.
  - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
    I'm not sure what you're technically proving, but the quote said nothing about "small fraction of people", it was categorical.
    - zmmmmm 5y ago
      refuting your statement: > you can't get COVID if you get the vaccine, implying it would stop the virus from circulating. It is entirely possibly that vaccination can leave a virus circulating while still preventing disease. Whether it does in this specific case is something you could debate, but you can't draw that implication stand alone.

tshaddox 5y ago

Haven’t the older vaccines been mandated for much longer?

JacobThreeThree 5y ago
There's never been a vaccine that was mandated in order to conduct basic commerce.
- danielsju6 5y ago
  Smallpox no? I mean it was criminal to not be vaccinated in many places and upheld by courts. Seems a stronger mandate to me.
  - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
    If you're referring to Jacobson v. Massachusetts, that case was about whether the state has a right to impose a fine on someone who refused to be vaccinated. A fine is very different than being barred from conducting commerce.
    - tshaddox 5y ago
      That seems like a stretch. Physically taking money from you is almost by definition an imposition on one's ability to conduct commerce.
    - danielsju6 5y ago
      In several states it was a criminal charge that could see you fined and/or imprisoned. Having a criminal record bars you from employment and commerce opportunities no? I know wearing a mask and taking the bare minimum to try to control a pandemic that has killed millions infringes on YOUR PRECIOUS FREEDOM but it seems a reasonable trade off for the state. Also what restrictions to basic commerce are you facing? That you can't go get wasted in a bar? Give us a break.
      - 5y ago

wildpeaks 5y ago

Vaccines are like seat belts: they don't prevent car crashes, but they help you survive them.

yetanotherath 5y ago
Good one! Here’s my version for pre-Covid vaccines: Vaccines are like seat belts: they prevent car crashes.
- headsoup 5y ago
  No they're more like airbags. The don't stop the accident but they do make it immensely more survivable. It's amazing how much we've forgotten about how vaccines and immunity work over the last couple of years.
  - yetanotherath 5y ago
- cma 5y ago
  Flu vaccines were always described as a pretty stochastic thing and not a guarantee, though that may have been more for uncertainty of which strain ended up dominant.
  - Izkata 5y ago
    Why is why they're colloquially referred to as "flu shots", not "flu vaccines".
- dTal 5y ago
  - yetanotherath 5y ago

vkou 5y ago

> The bar is being set high for these vaccines because they are being pushed and mandated with very exaggerated justification, that they will end the pandemic. At what point does the justification become 'exaggerated'? Is "This vaccine would have saved the lives of at least half a million Americans in the past two years" not a good enough justification? Is "End the pandemic" the only set of goal posts for vaccination that you will accept? Is not, is there a number of corpses that will be an acceptable justification? How much higher does it have to get? A million? Five? Fifty?

raz32dust 5y ago

What would it take for you to accept that people should get vaccinated by law? Or do you think it should just not be mandated ever?

nameisname 5y ago
You do not have to get your child vaccinated. If they're going to mandate vaccines, why haven't they done it already? What would have had to change before the pandemic for you to want them to be mandated?
mjevans 5y ago
We already have these requirements for other infectious diseases as well as health codes that cover clothing and sometimes protective equipment and procedure requirements for workers and customers in public settings. I liken masks to the requirement to have at least minimal clothing on. Sanitation is the same (wash your hands, here's how to scrub for 30 seconds).
dham 5y ago
No need to require vaccinations for a flash in the pan event. These things come and go. In the grand scheme of things, human civilization, this will be quickly forgotten.

ineedasername 5y ago

Vaccines have mostly eradicated other viruses. It's at least possible we could do the same here if we didn't have such a high level of resistance to getting vaccinated. It was only after (in the US) vaccination rates levelled off and Delta came along that I began hearing people talk about COVID as endemic. As for evidence, the continued efficacy of some vaccines against variants suggests that, with high levels of adoption, it's at least possible that after a few years of periodic boosters and targeting emerging strains that we could have reached an extremely low level of circulation. Also why wouldn't you move the goal posts when the data changes? You get new data, you reevaluate prior assumptions and models, and adjust accordingly. Is there a particular instance you're referring to here?

Vrondi 5y ago
When the primary message to the populace is that the vaccine will stop the spread, then the vaccines do not stop infection, large swathes of the public begin to feel lied to.
- f6v 5y ago
  Where can I read that message? I don’t follow many news channels. But I visited CDC website and their primary message is that vaccines protect from getting seriously ill.
  - recursive 5y ago
    Part of "serious illness" is being ill for longer. The longer you're infected, the more people you're likely to infect. How could vaccination not reduce the spread?
    - toolz 5y ago
  - kipchak 5y ago
    "So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they're going to transmit it," Fauci said. Fauci added that vaccinated people essentially become "dead ends" for the virus to spread within their communities. "When you get vaccinated, you not only protect your own health and that of the family but also you contribute to the community health by preventing the spread of the virus throughout the community," Fauci said. "In other words, you become a dead end to the virus. And when there are a lot of dead ends around, the virus is not going to go anywhere. And that's when you get a point that you have a markedly diminished rate of infection in the community."[1] This is more or less the messaging I recall seeing around the early stages of the vaccine being available. [1]https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-vaccinated-people-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-...

closeparen 5y ago

Hopes are high because if they don’t prevent spread, and breakthrough cases or effects on the unvaccinated/ineligible are bad enough, then there’s no off-ramp for NPIs.

triceratops 5y ago

> If the data is strong, you most likely wouldn't need mandates to convince people. That's an awfully naive and rosy view of "people".

tinus_hn 5y ago

> that they will end the pandemic. And that they will prevent the appearance of mutated strains. Or the corollary that the appearance of mutated strains is to be blamed on people being unvaccinated, either because they don’t have vaccines or don’t want them.

logic_beats_pro 5y ago
Oh no, not this talking point again. For the last time, you can spawn mutations regardless of vaccination status.
dudeDDRrulez 5y ago
This phenomenon of the unvaccinated being “Petri dishes” for mutations occurs in the vaccinated as well. So let’s not spread misinformation based on a complete misunderstanding on how mutations form in the body. Disagree? No problem, just show me the data that backs up that claim. Certainly not above having my mind changed.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  I should probably have quoted a larger part: > with very exaggerated justification, that they will end the pandemic