22 ms·

Ford used to make some cab-over semi trucks that were very popular in the US during the 80's and early 90's and resembled very closely the European designs of t

Ford used to make some cab-over semi trucks that were very popular in the US during the 80's and early 90's and resembled very closely the European designs of today. I think it's pretty obvious and comes down to a few things: * European trucks typically run shorter hauls, and do not require a bunk in the cab as often as multi-day cross-country runs. * European Semi's need to accommodate all countries' roads and parking lots. This means the much wider range of nonstandard roads, docks, fueling stations and parking lots extends much farther towards the "small" side. Tight streets and parking lots - making it necessary for the truck to be shorter for tighter turns and parking compatibility. * It has been proven that a cab-forward design is safer for avoiding accidents directly in front of the vehicles, something that is more focused on in the EU. * The least obvious but possibly the most relevant reason why it remains: Having and ingraining differing standards makes it harder for a single competitor to play into the both markets. EU is largely locked down by EU manufacturers since any US manufacturers would have to significantly change their design and production to sell there. The fuel economy point seems to be a distant consideration since the majority of drag economy comes from the trailer and not the tractor.

martyvis 5y ago
This Tesla was pushed for half a mile seemingly oblivious to the driver of this conventional cab semi. https://youtu.be/A5GePY23FxI https://youtu.be/A5GePY23FxI
brainwipe 5y ago
Although runs appear shorter in the EU, they're still multi-day. Lisbon to Edinburg is a 2000 mile drive. Most drivers kip in their cabs, not at home. IMO it's entirely down to the road networks. Driving across the US is like driving across one very broad road network. Driving across Europe is like driving on many fragmented, narrow road networks.
- teknopaul 5y ago
  [citation needed] Europe has a network of motorways. Last mile is a different story, probably the whole story.
  - freeflight 5y ago
    Europe consists of 44 different countries with sometimes vastly different developed, and funded, infrastructure. There is a big difference between the motorways in a country like the Netherlands vs those in Moldova [0] There is often also vastly different regulations in terms of vehicle safety requirements, and many other differences, the combination of which also leads to quite different per capita traffic deaths [1] [0] https://landgeist.com/2021/09/07/the-best-and-worst-roads-in-europe/ https://landgeist.com/2021/09/07/the-best-and-worst-roads-in... [1] https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/07/which-countries-in-europe-have-the-deadliest-roads https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/07/which-countries-in-europ...
ska 5y ago
The article brings all of this up, as well as the prevalence of "sleeper" cabs in US but not EU. This all seems pretty obviously likely to contribute. One non obvious thing in article; apparently up until 1986 both US and Europe had a strict limit on length of trailer + truck, which is a clear incentive to shorter cabs (gets you more trailer). In 86 US relaxed this, correlates pretty well with the fall off on cab-over designs.
- mantas 5y ago
  Sleeper cabs are popular in Europe too. But sleeper part is rather tiny. Yet trucker still sleep in them for weeks.
  - ska 5y ago
    Fair enough, that was sloppy terminology of me!
  - buildsjets 5y ago
    And that is the difference between a hired employee and an owner-operator.
    - mantas 5y ago
      I doubt euro trucks had different chassis designs if trucks were owned by truckers. But trucking in Europe is a mess with massive companies squeezing truckers and importing cheaper workers from wherever to keep salaries low and conditions shitty. At least one sector where Europe out-big-corps US?
      - dghlsakjg 5y ago
        Rest assured: the American trucking industry abuses workers too.
    - VBprogrammer 5y ago
      I mean, I'm sure European truckers would love a full kitchen, a shower and a double bed if they could get it. But the length limits would still be a problem and it would be hard enough to stay competitive without having to refuse the standard length trailers.
CountSessine 5y ago
It has been proven that a cab-forward design is safer for avoiding accidents directly in front of the vehicles, something that is more focused on in the EU. Ironic, because back in the 70's when there were more CoE designs driving around in the US, it was generally known through crash tests that CoE cab trucks were a lot less safe than conventional cab trucks in front-end collisions because of the driver's distance to the collision. If CoE trucks have gotten safer in front-end collisions, it's because a lot of engineering work has been done to mitigate this old problem.
- yoyohello13 5y ago
  OP said cab over engine is safer for avoiding accidents (probably because of increased visibility). Not necessarily safer when an accident occurs.
  - tgtweak 5y ago
    Correct, it has been proven many times that the lack of blindspot directly in front of the vehicle (to the driver) is the main factor. New "stubby" nose school bus designs greatly improved this over existing ones which were closer to a semi. Lately, front cameras and warning systems have made this less of a concern but it still remains the case.
- animal_spirits 5y ago
  CoE are better at _preventing_ collisions because of a better field of view, but I'm not sure how good safe they are when there is a collision
  - rmason 5y ago
    Spoke with a trucker about this very issue. He started out driving CoE trucks and said when there's a crash the driver is ejected out through the window. Now this was before the days of airbags but that would be enough to discourage their use. He said it got so drivers refused to work at companies who used them. However it was the desire for increased fuel economy that finally ended their reign.
jve 5y ago
> * European trucks typically run shorter hauls, and do not require a bunk in the cab as often as multi-day cross-country runs. I find it hard to believe. There are tons of trucks, having multi-day cross-country runs. I know a few truckers, they all have. They sleep in their cabs. Sometimes there are 2 truckers, so they can swap whenever limits reached. I see trucks from different countries any time I hit the road. If you ride on German autobahn, there is a never-ending stream of trucks from different countries.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  Also cargo rail is supposedly not a prevalent in the EU as it is in the US. (Vice versa for passenger rail.)
  - coredog64 5y ago
    Last time I checked, the US was only slightly behind Russia in rail ton-miles.
    - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
      Count it per capita.
- tgtweak 5y ago
  EU has a LOT more truck volume (both in terms of per capita and percentage of freight shipped by truck). This has some complex and not so obvious implications on how long things get hauled. The smaller trucks also make it more economical to do trips between hubs vs hauling across 3000kms (which is reasonably common in the US). Smaller trailer capacity (due to EU length restrictions) and increased depot/truck distribution means a heavier distribution towards shorter hauling.
- zardo 5y ago
  Are there any routes in Europe as long as the US coast-to-coast haul?
froh 5y ago
European semis all have a bunk beds, for two. They don't feature a kitchen though, and in the evenings the truckers gather in truck stops which serve humongous servings. These truck stops are all along the freeways all over Europe. There is a maximum vehicle length though, and a maximum weight, the former ensures vehicle maneuverability, the latter serves road stability, bridge specifications, optimized no-waste parking provisions for pass-through parking spots in said truck stops edit: and ferry capacity. Ireland, Finland are connected by Ferry. Manufacturing is pretty much internationalized, reusing parts and designs globally. Freightliner and Daimler are one company, for example. Fuel economy is indeed a point, albeit the combo of trailer and truck define the overall fuel economy. As the trailer usually is equivalent to a standard 40ft container, the ideal truck has a boring standard form, too. The text is German, the pictures are self explanatory-ish though wrt optimal and sub optimal wind résistance: https://en.vda.de/dam/vda/publications/FAT-SCHRIFTENREIHE%20260/1384523963_de_344759559.pdf https://en.vda.de/dam/vda/publications/FAT-SCHRIFTENREIHE%20...
- ComputerGuru 5y ago
  This is completely off topic, but does anyone know of a way to get a top-tier search engine to return the best results across all languages rather than the language matching that of the search query + English, as they are wont to do?
  - sdk16420 5y ago
    If there is a wikipedia entry on the topic, use the interlanguage links to find the most commonly used words for that term in a foreign language.
    - mastazi 5y ago
      Yes I agree this is what I do all the time and it works in most cases
    - fomine3 5y ago
      IIRC Google had provided search with translated query. It was useful. Anyone know alternative?
croes 5y ago
Just because the distances are shorter doesn't mean they drive to the destination and back again. They could easily have multiple destinations they drive to one after the other, with different cargo each time
marmakoide 5y ago
European trucks cross multiple countries during a trip with the same driver. In France, by looking at the vehicle plate, trucks come from Spain, Portugal, Lituania, Poland, Germany, etc Those are 2 to 3 days trips.
- suction 5y ago
  This. In the EU, trucks drive from Finland to Portugal, same driver. Americans really don't get Europe.
  - Aloha 5y ago
    The opposite is also true. Europeans often do not understand how just how big America is.
    - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
      And forget that Canadian and Mexican trucks are also transiting the borders.
      - suction 5y ago
        Literally moving goal posts
    - bialpio 5y ago
      USA's land area is smaller than Europe, but not by much, so I think it's fair to treat it as a non-factor. But the story changes if you also include Mexico and Canada...
Aloha 5y ago
I suspect all of this is wrong. The maximum length of an articulated vehicle in Germany (and most of europe) is 16.5m or 54 ft. [1] The maximum length of a vehicle in California is 65 ft. California is one of the more restrictive states when it comes to vehicle length simply because of the age of the road network. The longest vehicle you'll see in the states are turnpike doubles, which are around 130 ft long, the longest total permitted vehicle length in Europe is 65 ft. The US used cabovers before vehicle length rules were liberalized, and thats why we don't anymore, drivers prefer conventional trucks, the ride better, largely handle better, and are safer for the driver. [1] https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/dimensions-2019.pdf https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/dimensions...
- u320 5y ago
  Sweden and Finland allows up to 25.5 m.
  - Aloha 5y ago
    I did indeed say, most of Europe.
  - ecdouvhr 5y ago
    Incidentally, Finland and Sweden constitute something like 20% of the EU's total area, and both have relatively small urban centres scattered all around the place. It's pretty natural both have somewhat differing regulations in regards to transportation.
- mcguire 5y ago
  "The maximum length of a vehicle in California is 65 ft. California is one of the more restrictive states when it comes to vehicle length simply because of the age of the road network." Sort of. https://dot.ca.gov/programs/traffic-operations/legal-truck-access/quick-guide https://dot.ca.gov/programs/traffic-operations/legal-truck-a... The STAA (Surface Transportation Assistance Act of 1982) trucks can have unlimited length cabs but are primarily limited to interstates and marked state routes.
mastazi 5y ago
European cabovers have beds[1]. Sometimes a double bunk[2]. But they don't have a living area with kitchen etc. like American conventional trucks often do. > makes it harder for a single competitor to play into the both markets I don't think this is the case, because many of the top European and American brands are owned by the same conglomerates. For example Paccar owns DAF in Europe and Kenworth and Peterbilt in America. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3O3ixew1kA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3O3ixew1kA [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flScrV0pQwU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flScrV0pQwU
jsdwarf 5y ago
Another reason is that longer trucks are harder to overtake on motorways, the longer the truck the higher the risks for accidents. Europe has smaller highways and country roads. Furthermore truck logistics in the USA is mainly based on FTL (full truck load), which means the truck just drives from A to B. In Europe LTL (less than truck load) is more common, which means pickup and delivery on multiple stops. This requires a better maneuverability, hence shorter trucks.
- tgtweak 5y ago
  LTL also makes more sense with shorter trailers, since you can unload and reload the trailer quickly without having to play Jenga at the dock. It also encourages depot-to-depot runs vs supplier-to-client, which leads to the average trip length being shorter. Another factor unmentioned is the amount of independent truckers in the US who own their trucks and who primarily do longhaul sorties spanning a week or more. Can't find any data on this but it is a very commonplace thing in the US for truckers to live in their trucks more than their homes and I'm not sure that is the case in the EU.
  - holoduke 5y ago
    Truckers having their own trucks is history in the EU. Well almost. Nowadays the whole truck busines is in East Europe. with a wide variety of big companies. Mostly if not all international EU transport is driven by trucks from those low wage countries Poland, Bulgaria, Romania. You see them everywhere. From Ireland to Portugal to The Netherlands etc. Most highway parking stops are filled trucks from those countries. They live in their trucks for weeks if not months. It used to be quite dirty environment on those stops. With many eating next to their trucks. It's getting better now.

martyvis 5y ago

This Tesla was pushed for half a mile seemingly oblivious to the driver of this conventional cab semi. https://youtu.be/A5GePY23FxI https://youtu.be/A5GePY23FxI

brainwipe 5y ago

Although runs appear shorter in the EU, they're still multi-day. Lisbon to Edinburg is a 2000 mile drive. Most drivers kip in their cabs, not at home. IMO it's entirely down to the road networks. Driving across the US is like driving across one very broad road network. Driving across Europe is like driving on many fragmented, narrow road networks.

teknopaul 5y ago
[citation needed] Europe has a network of motorways. Last mile is a different story, probably the whole story.
- freeflight 5y ago
  Europe consists of 44 different countries with sometimes vastly different developed, and funded, infrastructure. There is a big difference between the motorways in a country like the Netherlands vs those in Moldova [0] There is often also vastly different regulations in terms of vehicle safety requirements, and many other differences, the combination of which also leads to quite different per capita traffic deaths [1] [0] https://landgeist.com/2021/09/07/the-best-and-worst-roads-in-europe/ https://landgeist.com/2021/09/07/the-best-and-worst-roads-in... [1] https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/07/which-countries-in-europe-have-the-deadliest-roads https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/07/which-countries-in-europ...

ska 5y ago

The article brings all of this up, as well as the prevalence of "sleeper" cabs in US but not EU. This all seems pretty obviously likely to contribute. One non obvious thing in article; apparently up until 1986 both US and Europe had a strict limit on length of trailer + truck, which is a clear incentive to shorter cabs (gets you more trailer). In 86 US relaxed this, correlates pretty well with the fall off on cab-over designs.

mantas 5y ago
Sleeper cabs are popular in Europe too. But sleeper part is rather tiny. Yet trucker still sleep in them for weeks.
- ska 5y ago
  Fair enough, that was sloppy terminology of me!
- buildsjets 5y ago
  And that is the difference between a hired employee and an owner-operator.
  - mantas 5y ago
    I doubt euro trucks had different chassis designs if trucks were owned by truckers. But trucking in Europe is a mess with massive companies squeezing truckers and importing cheaper workers from wherever to keep salaries low and conditions shitty. At least one sector where Europe out-big-corps US?
    - dghlsakjg 5y ago
      Rest assured: the American trucking industry abuses workers too.
  - VBprogrammer 5y ago
    I mean, I'm sure European truckers would love a full kitchen, a shower and a double bed if they could get it. But the length limits would still be a problem and it would be hard enough to stay competitive without having to refuse the standard length trailers.

CountSessine 5y ago

It has been proven that a cab-forward design is safer for avoiding accidents directly in front of the vehicles, something that is more focused on in the EU. Ironic, because back in the 70's when there were more CoE designs driving around in the US, it was generally known through crash tests that CoE cab trucks were a lot less safe than conventional cab trucks in front-end collisions because of the driver's distance to the collision. If CoE trucks have gotten safer in front-end collisions, it's because a lot of engineering work has been done to mitigate this old problem.

yoyohello13 5y ago
OP said cab over engine is safer for avoiding accidents (probably because of increased visibility). Not necessarily safer when an accident occurs.
- tgtweak 5y ago
  Correct, it has been proven many times that the lack of blindspot directly in front of the vehicle (to the driver) is the main factor. New "stubby" nose school bus designs greatly improved this over existing ones which were closer to a semi. Lately, front cameras and warning systems have made this less of a concern but it still remains the case.
animal_spirits 5y ago
CoE are better at _preventing_ collisions because of a better field of view, but I'm not sure how good safe they are when there is a collision
- rmason 5y ago
  Spoke with a trucker about this very issue. He started out driving CoE trucks and said when there's a crash the driver is ejected out through the window. Now this was before the days of airbags but that would be enough to discourage their use. He said it got so drivers refused to work at companies who used them. However it was the desire for increased fuel economy that finally ended their reign.

jve 5y ago

> * European trucks typically run shorter hauls, and do not require a bunk in the cab as often as multi-day cross-country runs. I find it hard to believe. There are tons of trucks, having multi-day cross-country runs. I know a few truckers, they all have. They sleep in their cabs. Sometimes there are 2 truckers, so they can swap whenever limits reached. I see trucks from different countries any time I hit the road. If you ride on German autobahn, there is a never-ending stream of trucks from different countries.

throw0101a 5y ago
Also cargo rail is supposedly not a prevalent in the EU as it is in the US. (Vice versa for passenger rail.)
- coredog64 5y ago
  Last time I checked, the US was only slightly behind Russia in rail ton-miles.
  - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
    Count it per capita.
tgtweak 5y ago
EU has a LOT more truck volume (both in terms of per capita and percentage of freight shipped by truck). This has some complex and not so obvious implications on how long things get hauled. The smaller trucks also make it more economical to do trips between hubs vs hauling across 3000kms (which is reasonably common in the US). Smaller trailer capacity (due to EU length restrictions) and increased depot/truck distribution means a heavier distribution towards shorter hauling.
zardo 5y ago
Are there any routes in Europe as long as the US coast-to-coast haul?

froh 5y ago

European semis all have a bunk beds, for two. They don't feature a kitchen though, and in the evenings the truckers gather in truck stops which serve humongous servings. These truck stops are all along the freeways all over Europe. There is a maximum vehicle length though, and a maximum weight, the former ensures vehicle maneuverability, the latter serves road stability, bridge specifications, optimized no-waste parking provisions for pass-through parking spots in said truck stops edit: and ferry capacity. Ireland, Finland are connected by Ferry. Manufacturing is pretty much internationalized, reusing parts and designs globally. Freightliner and Daimler are one company, for example. Fuel economy is indeed a point, albeit the combo of trailer and truck define the overall fuel economy. As the trailer usually is equivalent to a standard 40ft container, the ideal truck has a boring standard form, too. The text is German, the pictures are self explanatory-ish though wrt optimal and sub optimal wind résistance: https://en.vda.de/dam/vda/publications/FAT-SCHRIFTENREIHE%20260/1384523963_de_344759559.pdf https://en.vda.de/dam/vda/publications/FAT-SCHRIFTENREIHE%20...

ComputerGuru 5y ago
This is completely off topic, but does anyone know of a way to get a top-tier search engine to return the best results across all languages rather than the language matching that of the search query + English, as they are wont to do?
- sdk16420 5y ago
  If there is a wikipedia entry on the topic, use the interlanguage links to find the most commonly used words for that term in a foreign language.
  - mastazi 5y ago
    Yes I agree this is what I do all the time and it works in most cases
  - fomine3 5y ago
    IIRC Google had provided search with translated query. It was useful. Anyone know alternative?

croes 5y ago

Just because the distances are shorter doesn't mean they drive to the destination and back again. They could easily have multiple destinations they drive to one after the other, with different cargo each time

marmakoide 5y ago

European trucks cross multiple countries during a trip with the same driver. In France, by looking at the vehicle plate, trucks come from Spain, Portugal, Lituania, Poland, Germany, etc Those are 2 to 3 days trips.

suction 5y ago
This. In the EU, trucks drive from Finland to Portugal, same driver. Americans really don't get Europe.
- Aloha 5y ago
  The opposite is also true. Europeans often do not understand how just how big America is.
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    And forget that Canadian and Mexican trucks are also transiting the borders.
    - suction 5y ago
      Literally moving goal posts
  - bialpio 5y ago
    USA's land area is smaller than Europe, but not by much, so I think it's fair to treat it as a non-factor. But the story changes if you also include Mexico and Canada...

Aloha 5y ago

I suspect all of this is wrong. The maximum length of an articulated vehicle in Germany (and most of europe) is 16.5m or 54 ft. [1] The maximum length of a vehicle in California is 65 ft. California is one of the more restrictive states when it comes to vehicle length simply because of the age of the road network. The longest vehicle you'll see in the states are turnpike doubles, which are around 130 ft long, the longest total permitted vehicle length in Europe is 65 ft. The US used cabovers before vehicle length rules were liberalized, and thats why we don't anymore, drivers prefer conventional trucks, the ride better, largely handle better, and are safer for the driver. [1] https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/dimensions-2019.pdf https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/dimensions...

u320 5y ago
Sweden and Finland allows up to 25.5 m.
- Aloha 5y ago
  I did indeed say, most of Europe.
- ecdouvhr 5y ago
  Incidentally, Finland and Sweden constitute something like 20% of the EU's total area, and both have relatively small urban centres scattered all around the place. It's pretty natural both have somewhat differing regulations in regards to transportation.
mcguire 5y ago
"The maximum length of a vehicle in California is 65 ft. California is one of the more restrictive states when it comes to vehicle length simply because of the age of the road network." Sort of. https://dot.ca.gov/programs/traffic-operations/legal-truck-access/quick-guide https://dot.ca.gov/programs/traffic-operations/legal-truck-a... The STAA (Surface Transportation Assistance Act of 1982) trucks can have unlimited length cabs but are primarily limited to interstates and marked state routes.

mastazi 5y ago

European cabovers have beds[1]. Sometimes a double bunk[2]. But they don't have a living area with kitchen etc. like American conventional trucks often do. > makes it harder for a single competitor to play into the both markets I don't think this is the case, because many of the top European and American brands are owned by the same conglomerates. For example Paccar owns DAF in Europe and Kenworth and Peterbilt in America. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3O3ixew1kA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3O3ixew1kA [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flScrV0pQwU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flScrV0pQwU

jsdwarf 5y ago

Another reason is that longer trucks are harder to overtake on motorways, the longer the truck the higher the risks for accidents. Europe has smaller highways and country roads. Furthermore truck logistics in the USA is mainly based on FTL (full truck load), which means the truck just drives from A to B. In Europe LTL (less than truck load) is more common, which means pickup and delivery on multiple stops. This requires a better maneuverability, hence shorter trucks.

tgtweak 5y ago
LTL also makes more sense with shorter trailers, since you can unload and reload the trailer quickly without having to play Jenga at the dock. It also encourages depot-to-depot runs vs supplier-to-client, which leads to the average trip length being shorter. Another factor unmentioned is the amount of independent truckers in the US who own their trucks and who primarily do longhaul sorties spanning a week or more. Can't find any data on this but it is a very commonplace thing in the US for truckers to live in their trucks more than their homes and I'm not sure that is the case in the EU.
- holoduke 5y ago
  Truckers having their own trucks is history in the EU. Well almost. Nowadays the whole truck busines is in East Europe. with a wide variety of big companies. Mostly if not all international EU transport is driven by trucks from those low wage countries Poland, Bulgaria, Romania. You see them everywhere. From Ireland to Portugal to The Netherlands etc. Most highway parking stops are filled trucks from those countries. They live in their trucks for weeks if not months. It used to be quite dirty environment on those stops. With many eating next to their trucks. It's getting better now.