5 ms·

Probably going to be downvoted to hell but anyway. Why are we always saying that hating jews is about race and not religion? There is black African Jews, whit

Probably going to be downvoted to hell but anyway. Why are we always saying that hating jews is about race and not religion? There is black African Jews, white north African Jews, eastern European Jews, Hispanic Jews, middle eastern Jews. It's something that I'll really never wrap my head around. I'm genetically/ethnically ""identical"" to a whole bunch of Jews, but there isn't a single Jewish person in my family. Is hating Mormons racist against white people? Is hating Muslims racist against Arabs? Why is there an exception for Jews?

dusted 5y ago
What caused me some distress in this is news item is that as far as I can understand, her statement was correct, it is my understanding that Jews are a religious group, not a race. No matter how one defines race, I do not know of any widespread religion or belief system that is exclusive to a single race? It may be be my ignorance about holocaust, but I understand that it was a genocide of Jews, not a specific race, is this wrong information?
- throwawaynay 5y ago
  For the Jewish part I'm convinced it's correct. However there is the mostly forgotten Romani genocide part that was definitely about race.
  - aaron695 5y ago
- detaro 5y ago
  Some starting points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F Note how ethnic factors are mentioned a lot. "Jewishness" gets mostly inherited, and is thus tightly intertwined with ethnicity and "race" (scare quotes because its IMHO not an all-that-useful or well-defined term). > No matter how one defines race The Nazis were very explicit about exterminating the "Jewish Race": people with ancestors that were Jewish. If people get prosecuted because some of their ancestors were Jewish, without consideration for their own religious practice, you can't pretend it was "just" religious persecution. (also to be noted that this is indeed different than many other instances of anti-jewish policies in history which were motivated by religion not race and did not include people who were not practicing Jews)
  - throwawaynay 5y ago
    So the basis for determining whether a group is a race is the thoughts and actions of some psychotic meth-addicted tyrants? It's a belief system, a way of thinking, just because some lunatic decide to persecute anyone blood related to someone with a certain belief system or who thinks a certain way doesn't make it a race. If someone want to exterminate what he decides to call the Scientologist race and anyone related to them, does that mean it suddenly becomes a race? And Jews believe it only gets inherited through the mother, that's not how race works. A biracial man with a black father and a white mother is just as white or just as black than a biracial man with a white father.
  - dusted 5y ago
    Thank you, that was insightful. So it's kind of granted that in order for someone to define Jews as a race, one has to agree with the nazi definition of Jew. This makes the ban even more perplexing, so on one hand ABC chose the nazi definition and on the other they (I assume) distance themselves from everything else the nazis said or belived..
    - detaro 5y ago
      > So it's kind of granted that in order for someone to define Jews as a race, one has to agree with the nazi definition of Jew. I'm genuinely curious how you think that the first part of my comment and the links there don't support the concept?
      - dusted 5y ago
        The text I find with the word "race" is when explaining that the nazis are defining Jews as a race. I cant seem but to find the idea of defining a race as "anyone belonging to this religion" so incomprehensible that I probably can't read the text the way it's supposed to be read. Does that mean that simply being born to a Jewish father makes you a part of the Jewish race? Does it then mean that by rejecting your religion, your race changes? I guess I really have no idea what race means.
joe__f 5y ago
Jewishness encompasses both religion and ethnicity [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews
- throwawaynay 5y ago
  I'm aware of what's widely accepted as the truth regarding this issue. What I don't understand is on which logical basis it's widely accepted. How can a black Ethiopian and a white Polish be considered part of the same race? It does not compute.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    They are not considered to be the same race and yet both can be Jews. I was just thinking about the Sith in Star Wars, but maybe that comparison hurts feelings again....
    - throwawaynay 5y ago
      > They are not considered to be the same race and yet both can be Jews. then it's not a race, it's a really obvious paradox
      - raxxorrax 5y ago
        It isn't a paradox, it can be both a religion and a race. For those that consider themselves Jews the religious component is obviously more important. I am ethnically a Jew and yet I am a Christian (not religious, more a tradition and paper thing). I don't consider myself a Jew but some would. For racists that prosecuted Jews the ethnic component was far more important. Judaism also has an ethnic component as those that are descendants of Abraham are considered Jews. And yet, those that adopted Judaism are too.
        throwawaynay 5y ago
alignItems 5y ago
The whole concept of “race” when it comes to racism is a human construct. There are many different black ethnicities and many different white ethnicities (and many in the shades between), but to racists there’s just black and white, and the fact that they are conflating many different people into one category doesn’t make them any less racist. Antisemitism is not about religion because antisemites also hate Jews who are not religious, or who changed their religion.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  They especially hate secular Jews, far more than religious ones, even if the most crazies start with attacking synagogues. Finding the others isn't as easy I suppose. Religion didn't save you from prosecution in Europe and for some your ethnicity is the determining factor. There is a religious component as well, but it is unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
blueflow 5y ago
Its not a factual disagreement. Its power play. Whoopi said something that goes against the narrative of more influential people.
- hw-guy 5y ago
  Care to elaborate?
  - dekhn 5y ago
    It's hard to explain Race In America, but basically, over the past few decades, progressive media has sort of simplified its message and considered only really "Black people racism" (IE, the systemic and daily experiences of black people in America being treated as second class citizens). This sort of led to a self-reinforcing cycle. Over time, it grew to include many marginalized classes, but in the US, many previously second-class/margianlized classes (Eastern European Jews, Asians from many different countries, non-Jewish eastern european people, etc) are economically successful and integrate with the mainstream, so they tend to be excluded from discussions of racism. At any time in the US there are "third rails" that, if you state an opinion, will immediately lead to intense controversey and this is one of them.

dusted 5y ago

What caused me some distress in this is news item is that as far as I can understand, her statement was correct, it is my understanding that Jews are a religious group, not a race. No matter how one defines race, I do not know of any widespread religion or belief system that is exclusive to a single race? It may be be my ignorance about holocaust, but I understand that it was a genocide of Jews, not a specific race, is this wrong information?

throwawaynay 5y ago
For the Jewish part I'm convinced it's correct. However there is the mostly forgotten Romani genocide part that was definitely about race.
- aaron695 5y ago
detaro 5y ago
Some starting points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F Note how ethnic factors are mentioned a lot. "Jewishness" gets mostly inherited, and is thus tightly intertwined with ethnicity and "race" (scare quotes because its IMHO not an all-that-useful or well-defined term). > No matter how one defines race The Nazis were very explicit about exterminating the "Jewish Race": people with ancestors that were Jewish. If people get prosecuted because some of their ancestors were Jewish, without consideration for their own religious practice, you can't pretend it was "just" religious persecution. (also to be noted that this is indeed different than many other instances of anti-jewish policies in history which were motivated by religion not race and did not include people who were not practicing Jews)
- throwawaynay 5y ago
  So the basis for determining whether a group is a race is the thoughts and actions of some psychotic meth-addicted tyrants? It's a belief system, a way of thinking, just because some lunatic decide to persecute anyone blood related to someone with a certain belief system or who thinks a certain way doesn't make it a race. If someone want to exterminate what he decides to call the Scientologist race and anyone related to them, does that mean it suddenly becomes a race? And Jews believe it only gets inherited through the mother, that's not how race works. A biracial man with a black father and a white mother is just as white or just as black than a biracial man with a white father.
- dusted 5y ago
  Thank you, that was insightful. So it's kind of granted that in order for someone to define Jews as a race, one has to agree with the nazi definition of Jew. This makes the ban even more perplexing, so on one hand ABC chose the nazi definition and on the other they (I assume) distance themselves from everything else the nazis said or belived..
  - detaro 5y ago
    > So it's kind of granted that in order for someone to define Jews as a race, one has to agree with the nazi definition of Jew. I'm genuinely curious how you think that the first part of my comment and the links there don't support the concept?
    - dusted 5y ago
      The text I find with the word "race" is when explaining that the nazis are defining Jews as a race. I cant seem but to find the idea of defining a race as "anyone belonging to this religion" so incomprehensible that I probably can't read the text the way it's supposed to be read. Does that mean that simply being born to a Jewish father makes you a part of the Jewish race? Does it then mean that by rejecting your religion, your race changes? I guess I really have no idea what race means.

joe__f 5y ago

Jewishness encompasses both religion and ethnicity [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

throwawaynay 5y ago
I'm aware of what's widely accepted as the truth regarding this issue. What I don't understand is on which logical basis it's widely accepted. How can a black Ethiopian and a white Polish be considered part of the same race? It does not compute.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  They are not considered to be the same race and yet both can be Jews. I was just thinking about the Sith in Star Wars, but maybe that comparison hurts feelings again....
  - throwawaynay 5y ago
    > They are not considered to be the same race and yet both can be Jews. then it's not a race, it's a really obvious paradox
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      It isn't a paradox, it can be both a religion and a race. For those that consider themselves Jews the religious component is obviously more important. I am ethnically a Jew and yet I am a Christian (not religious, more a tradition and paper thing). I don't consider myself a Jew but some would. For racists that prosecuted Jews the ethnic component was far more important. Judaism also has an ethnic component as those that are descendants of Abraham are considered Jews. And yet, those that adopted Judaism are too.
      - throwawaynay 5y ago

alignItems 5y ago

The whole concept of “race” when it comes to racism is a human construct. There are many different black ethnicities and many different white ethnicities (and many in the shades between), but to racists there’s just black and white, and the fact that they are conflating many different people into one category doesn’t make them any less racist. Antisemitism is not about religion because antisemites also hate Jews who are not religious, or who changed their religion.

raxxorrax 5y ago
They especially hate secular Jews, far more than religious ones, even if the most crazies start with attacking synagogues. Finding the others isn't as easy I suppose. Religion didn't save you from prosecution in Europe and for some your ethnicity is the determining factor. There is a religious component as well, but it is unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

blueflow 5y ago

Its not a factual disagreement. Its power play. Whoopi said something that goes against the narrative of more influential people.

hw-guy 5y ago
Care to elaborate?
- dekhn 5y ago
  It's hard to explain Race In America, but basically, over the past few decades, progressive media has sort of simplified its message and considered only really "Black people racism" (IE, the systemic and daily experiences of black people in America being treated as second class citizens). This sort of led to a self-reinforcing cycle. Over time, it grew to include many marginalized classes, but in the US, many previously second-class/margianlized classes (Eastern European Jews, Asians from many different countries, non-Jewish eastern european people, etc) are economically successful and integrate with the mainstream, so they tend to be excluded from discussions of racism. At any time in the US there are "third rails" that, if you state an opinion, will immediately lead to intense controversey and this is one of them.