6 ms·

Conversely, it also seems to be how capitalist designs work. I ask: What designs actually help the working class?

by lijogdfljk 5y ago

voisin 5y ago
Universal Basic Income.
- Cloudef 5y ago
  UBI has the potential to shift the cost of ubi into everything else, then you are back to the starting point
  - asdff 5y ago
    This is not very great logic. People try and argue the same about minimum wage and it falls in its face, because economists who practice critical thinking note that when minimum wage has been raised historically, inflation generally did not follow.
    - tastyfreeze 5y ago
      After reading about the history and impact of minimum wages it is a policy that I vehemently oppose. Minimum wage started in most places as a way to price a group of workers out of the market so some other group could keep their jobs at the pay they liked. Additionally, minimum wage fails to deliver on its promise of helping low income groups. It makes less jobs available to low skill workers making it more difficult to acquire skills that would increase the pay they could demand. Finally, as with any price fixing scheme a black market arises. This would be cash under the table type jobs. What is wrong with two people agreeing on a price for some work that is below what some far away bean counter thinks is acceptable?
      - trasz 5y ago
        I wonder what exactly you’ve been reading or get to this conclusion.
        tastyfreeze 5y ago
        A few years ago I would have wondered the same thing. After reading Basic Economic by Thomas Sowell I searched for more information to counter the book's claims on minimum wage. In the end I came to the conclusion that Sowell is right. Minimum wage is a net negative in society. Minimum wage is harmful to the low income groups the policy is supposed to help. Example of job protection origins: https://www.forbes.com/sites/carriesheffield/2014/04/29/on-the-historically-racist-motivations-behind-minimum-wage/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/carriesheffield/2014/04/29/on-t... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Bacon_Act_of_1931?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Bacon_Act_of_193... https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/files/docs/publications/bls/bls_0467_1928.pdf https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/files/docs/publications/bls/bl... Australia protecting jobs from Chinese workers pg 17 British Columbia protecting jobs from "Asiatics" pg 68 South Africa protecting jobs from "colored" workers pg 74
  - voisin 5y ago
    Index it to inflation. Increase taxes on the rich to pay for it. Replace a ton of other costly-to-administer social programs too.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Cloudef 5y ago
All designs help those in power
e4e78a06 5y ago
None, because you can't get around markets even if you try to regulate them out of existence. As seen in the article countries with good unemployment benefits also have higher rates of unemployment during normal times. And don't forget every job being outsourced to China/Vietnam/Africa. If you confiscated all of Jeff Bezos' net worth you'd get something like $1000 for each American, once. The way to help the working class is to ensure economic growth happens, because a rising tide lifts all boats.
- piva00 5y ago
  > The way to help the working class is to ensure economic growth happens, because a rising tide lifts all boats. This is just trickle down economics. The same catchphrase as "grow the pie to share it". It simply fuels money to the rich as well, in a larger proportion than to workers. We are actually experiencing the results of 40 years of that ideology and it doesn't look pretty. Growth is also looking like a very unsustainable way to support civilization.
  - e4e78a06 5y ago
    We haven't had real economic growth in the US since the 70's when deindustrialization first began. If you discount by the real estate market's return instead of CPI you have negative or flat real growth. CPI includes a lot of goods that are long run deflationary like TVs, food, and cars. I'd point you to China for an example of what "rising tide lifts all boats" actually looks like. And to add to that - it matters a lot what kind of growth is driving GDP increases. If you're just powering growth by increasing immigration (aka working population) that's not increasing per-capita GDP. > Growth is also looking like a very unsustainable way to support civilization. Again, depends what kind of growth you're talking about. > "grow the pie to share it" Wealth redistribution has never worked in history. In every case where it has occurred there has been a flight of capital leading to underinvestment and poverty, or war.
    - dgb23 5y ago
      > Wealth redistribution has never worked in history. In every case where it has occurred there has been a flight of capital leading to underinvestment and poverty, or war. What do you classify as wealth redistribution?
brimble 5y ago
Democratic socialism seems to be the label for the best mix of elements we've founds so far. "Capitalism" doesn't mean "anything to do with markets", and tells you exactly who it's for right there in the name. Capitalism vs. not letting free markets exist to any substantial degree, is a false choice. Relying on that label as if approaches that aren't at least pretty close to what the US does are all diametrically opposed to capitalism and necessarily share nothing with it, is a way to end up arguing over things that aren't real and don't matter.
spywaregorilla 5y ago
War (taking place somewhere else, that you're winning)
- Aeolun 5y ago
  That seems like a zero sum game. For you to be winning there has to be an similar working class somewhere that is losing.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    Outside the problem definition
    - munk-a 5y ago
      And that's how we end up with refugee crises. (amongst a plethora of other moral, ethical and humanitarian issues)
      - spywaregorilla 5y ago
        Nobody denying that
tamaharbor 5y ago
Available jobs with no unemployment recourse.

Conversely, it also seems to be how capitalist designs work. I ask: What designs actually help the working class?

voisin 5y ago

Universal Basic Income.

Cloudef 5y ago
UBI has the potential to shift the cost of ubi into everything else, then you are back to the starting point
- asdff 5y ago
  This is not very great logic. People try and argue the same about minimum wage and it falls in its face, because economists who practice critical thinking note that when minimum wage has been raised historically, inflation generally did not follow.
  - tastyfreeze 5y ago
    After reading about the history and impact of minimum wages it is a policy that I vehemently oppose. Minimum wage started in most places as a way to price a group of workers out of the market so some other group could keep their jobs at the pay they liked. Additionally, minimum wage fails to deliver on its promise of helping low income groups. It makes less jobs available to low skill workers making it more difficult to acquire skills that would increase the pay they could demand. Finally, as with any price fixing scheme a black market arises. This would be cash under the table type jobs. What is wrong with two people agreeing on a price for some work that is below what some far away bean counter thinks is acceptable?
    - trasz 5y ago
      I wonder what exactly you’ve been reading or get to this conclusion.
      - tastyfreeze 5y ago
        A few years ago I would have wondered the same thing. After reading Basic Economic by Thomas Sowell I searched for more information to counter the book's claims on minimum wage. In the end I came to the conclusion that Sowell is right. Minimum wage is a net negative in society. Minimum wage is harmful to the low income groups the policy is supposed to help. Example of job protection origins: https://www.forbes.com/sites/carriesheffield/2014/04/29/on-the-historically-racist-motivations-behind-minimum-wage/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/carriesheffield/2014/04/29/on-t... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Bacon_Act_of_1931?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Bacon_Act_of_193... https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/files/docs/publications/bls/bls_0467_1928.pdf https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/files/docs/publications/bls/bl... Australia protecting jobs from Chinese workers pg 17 British Columbia protecting jobs from "Asiatics" pg 68 South Africa protecting jobs from "colored" workers pg 74
- voisin 5y ago
  Index it to inflation. Increase taxes on the rich to pay for it. Replace a ton of other costly-to-administer social programs too.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Cloudef 5y ago

All designs help those in power

e4e78a06 5y ago

None, because you can't get around markets even if you try to regulate them out of existence. As seen in the article countries with good unemployment benefits also have higher rates of unemployment during normal times. And don't forget every job being outsourced to China/Vietnam/Africa. If you confiscated all of Jeff Bezos' net worth you'd get something like $1000 for each American, once. The way to help the working class is to ensure economic growth happens, because a rising tide lifts all boats.

piva00 5y ago
> The way to help the working class is to ensure economic growth happens, because a rising tide lifts all boats. This is just trickle down economics. The same catchphrase as "grow the pie to share it". It simply fuels money to the rich as well, in a larger proportion than to workers. We are actually experiencing the results of 40 years of that ideology and it doesn't look pretty. Growth is also looking like a very unsustainable way to support civilization.
- e4e78a06 5y ago
  We haven't had real economic growth in the US since the 70's when deindustrialization first began. If you discount by the real estate market's return instead of CPI you have negative or flat real growth. CPI includes a lot of goods that are long run deflationary like TVs, food, and cars. I'd point you to China for an example of what "rising tide lifts all boats" actually looks like. And to add to that - it matters a lot what kind of growth is driving GDP increases. If you're just powering growth by increasing immigration (aka working population) that's not increasing per-capita GDP. > Growth is also looking like a very unsustainable way to support civilization. Again, depends what kind of growth you're talking about. > "grow the pie to share it" Wealth redistribution has never worked in history. In every case where it has occurred there has been a flight of capital leading to underinvestment and poverty, or war.
  - dgb23 5y ago
    > Wealth redistribution has never worked in history. In every case where it has occurred there has been a flight of capital leading to underinvestment and poverty, or war. What do you classify as wealth redistribution?

brimble 5y ago

Democratic socialism seems to be the label for the best mix of elements we've founds so far. "Capitalism" doesn't mean "anything to do with markets", and tells you exactly who it's for right there in the name. Capitalism vs. not letting free markets exist to any substantial degree, is a false choice. Relying on that label as if approaches that aren't at least pretty close to what the US does are all diametrically opposed to capitalism and necessarily share nothing with it, is a way to end up arguing over things that aren't real and don't matter.

spywaregorilla 5y ago

War (taking place somewhere else, that you're winning)

Aeolun 5y ago
That seems like a zero sum game. For you to be winning there has to be an similar working class somewhere that is losing.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  Outside the problem definition
  - munk-a 5y ago
    And that's how we end up with refugee crises. (amongst a plethora of other moral, ethical and humanitarian issues)
    - spywaregorilla 5y ago
      Nobody denying that

tamaharbor 5y ago

Available jobs with no unemployment recourse.