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Israel rolls out laser defense system

112 points by Anonymous4272 5y ago

alfalfasprout 5y ago
With rockets I'm guessing that thermal signatures are used to home in on the projectile being destroyed. But I'm wondering what's being used here to keep the laser locked onto the target projectile. It's definitely an impressive technological feat.
- LegitShady 5y ago
  The arrow missile system uses the Israeli green pine radar for acquisition and tracking while the arrow interceptor has both passive ir and active radar tracking.
- datameta 5y ago
  My (completely unsubstantiated) guess is that a targeting IR laser is used for the required granularity of target correction.
- WJW 5y ago
  Typically you'd use radar to detect incoming projectiles, using multiple detections over time to determine the trajectory of an incoming missile (they are usually unguided and will thus follow a predictable ballistic trajectory).
  - manishsharan 5y ago
    But would it not be possible to build missiles that can intelligently alter route upon detecting detection ? I recall once working on a auto guided industrial machine based on Motorola 68000 microprocessor that could figure out how to route itself to its destination. So unless you can detect and eliminate the missile almost simultaneously, an intelligent missile could throttle it's velocity etc. to avoid predictable trajectory. Edit: some typos
    - yehoshuapw 5y ago
      while missiles can be built to have irregular routes, this is more important for missile-based defense. there, with the distances and speeds involved it will cause the interceptor to need to counter the irregularities, which will make it need to also be much more advanced. small changes in thrust however (at a later time - and thus higher speed) can cause only so much of a change. but more importantly - light-based interception can be re-pointed much faster then a missile can change it's own course.
      - manishsharan 5y ago
        A missile design may evolve to have the original missile to intelligently decompose,upon detection, into multiple smaller missiles each with a randomized target and path. The parent missile could focus on reaching as close as possible to target rich area with stealth and upon inevitable detection, unleash smaller missiles with randomized paths. If the cost of missiles keep going down, I can see aggressors firing several of these to maximize their probability of a successful hit.
        cronix 5y ago
        That's been around for quite a long time, at least the late 1960's. > A multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle (MIRV) is an exoatmospheric ballistic missile payload containing several warheads, each capable of being aimed to hit a different target. The concept is almost invariably associated with intercontinental ballistic missiles carrying thermonuclear warheads, even if not strictly being limited to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targetable_reentry_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targeta...
        samus 5y ago
        These are more expensive to build though. At some point, more far-ranging and guided systems can be used to snipe it before it is anywhere close from splitting apart. And Iron Beam will still be cheaper to deal with any warheads that manage to split off.
    - 5y ago
dexwiz 5y ago
This tech will be the end of MAD and the start of WW3. The only thing holding back current super powers from direct confrontation are ICBMs and MAD. Once they can be reliably shot down via lasers, then full scale war is much more likely. I understand the current tech is for much slower, much lower rockets and cruise missiles. But the tech will evolve and get better. Israel is the current test bed for high tech defense, so expect further improvements over the next decade. We have seen a century of relative peace, enjoy it while it lasts.
- elsonrodriguez 5y ago
  As long as EMPs are viable MAD is still in effect.
  - gremlinsinc 5y ago
    An emp would knock out electrical grids.... sure... But that isn't annihilation... Say russia installed this in major cities (rural is acceptable loss), then manufactured super sonic nukes that could deliver a strike in under 5 mins... or even a minute... they could strike many of our nuke sites (not all because of subs) but our major military operation bases, then we strike back from subs, but these take them all out, there's some fallout from atmospheric explosions which may be as bad, but maybe they hoist huge fans to blow it south to the Ukraine or another enemy state... I don't think EMP's really would deter this sort of outcome... MAD is becoming less and less a thing, super-sonic weapons are the real clencher, because with those it's simply whoever strikes first - if they strike hard enough can disable just about any enemy... so the trick will be not getting to the point of first strike... which...I don't think we can really prevent, not w/ water wars/climate resources diminishing, etc.... The worst war ever will come, we thought globalization could keep people sane but threats to supply chains, and resources, and the existence of the earth itself turn people into desperate people. Desperate people don't always do what's considered 'sane'. What we'd deem an evil dictator might try and nuke 80% of the population to save the climate, and it probably would succeed but most sane people would say the cost is too great for that ...and they'd be right too.... I mean Thanos had good intentions but horrible means towards them... A madman who gets elected or inherits the button to the nations military arsenal could decide to burn it all down like Nero...
james-redwood 5y ago
The space lasers were real /s (in reference to the Republican congresswoman who blamed the California wildfires on Jewish space lasers: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/marjorie-taylor-greene-qanon-wildfires-space-laser-rothschild-execute.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/marjorie-taylor-gree...)
- m0llusk 5y ago
  It really surprises me that so many people who have seen UFO reports all their lives cite this as nothing but humorous stupidity from a politician. People who follow satellite data in order to understand global patterns of earthquakes and weather saw what looks like beams from unknown sources hitting areas that then caught fire. As with anything else this is very likely to be some kind of sensor or transmission glitch that simply needs to be analyzed in detail to find some mundane explanation, but it is worth acknowledging that the whole business emerged not from the political foolishness that got attached to it later but from hobbyists trying to explain genuinely peculiar data. Even when people talk about UFOs or space lasers it is worth taking in and trying to explain the actual data.
  - doodlebugging 5y ago
    > People who follow satellite data in order to understand global patterns of earthquakes and weather saw what looks like beams from unknown sources hitting areas that then caught fire. What? Is there a link to any of this or is it just standard internet BS? I've heard of earthquake lights and there may be something to that. Never heard of anything focused on places that later caught fire. The fires that I am aware of were mostly blamed on poor maintenance of electrical utility infrastructure or on arsonists or fools doing stupid stuff like "gender reveals". Enlighten me, but not with one of them space lasers, just about them.
    - m0llusk 5y ago
      At the time I saw the videos on YouTube postings from "dutchsinse". Why is it my job to do your research? Videos of what appear to be moving globs get people yelling about UFOs and now videos of what appear to be beams just before fires get people yelling about space lasers. Do you really think that being sloppy and full of emotion and attitude somehow makes you superior and on top of all of this? If you actually dared to read my post I posited that these were probably the usual misinterpretation of sensory or transmission glitches, but you are too scared to even look up what this is about in order to give some kind of meaningful and informed reply. All you care about is a political wingnut.
sandworm101 5y ago
I will believe it when I see it. Focusing that much light on a small moving object, through layered and moving air, with an intensity to burn through metal would be an achievement. Burning through enough of that metal to degrade a falling rocket (as opposed to during boost phase of flight) is even harder. For all the talk about cost reduction, have a look at what realworld laser armor costs. Painting the nosecone of a rocket white, or coating it with reflective foil costs next to nothing but is remarkably effective. Better question: What would this do to a manned aircraft? There is a reason there are treaties against blinding weapons.
- simplyaccont 5y ago
  >I will believe it when I see it. Focusing that much light on a small moving object, through layered and moving air, with an intensity to burn through metal would be an achievement. Burning through enough of that metal to degrade a falling rocket (as opposed to during boost phase of flight) is even harder. it's been working 20 years ago. it's just systems were too big. you needed 2-3 tracks to supply energy to laser system, and there were delays between shots. >For all the talk about cost reduction, have a look at what realworld laser armor costs. Painting the nosecone of a rocket white, or coating it with reflective foil costs next to nothing but is remarkably effective. doesn't work. nosecone it's small part of rocket, laser will target midsection probably. reflective foil won't help either as it needs to be designed to reflect specific wavelength of laser iirc
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    Any foil will do, just as the JWST's sunshield is effective against all the wavelengths coming off the sun. Gold or silver is best, but aluminum foil from the grocery store is extremely reflective across all wavelengths we would call laser. Just giving the metal rocket a good polish would make a significant difference.
    - simplyaccont 5y ago
      there is some difference, but I guess all the companies that sank billions into directed energy weapons missed that aluminum foil from shop can negate all their efforts
snidane 5y ago
Will they start shooting rockets when it gets foggy ouside now?
- ocschwar 5y ago
  Historically they've not done that because they know the IDF's response is proportional to the civilian casualties on the Israeli side. Better to wait for clear weather when iron dome is maximally effective.
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - golergka 5y ago
    This doesn't make any sense. The whole point is to get a bigger IDF response, bloodier palestinian casualties, louder western media coverage and larger help packages to pocket.
    - LorenPechtel 5y ago
      No. Hamas doesn't want too much Israeli response--Israel is too good at targeting the higher-up people. They want to provoke some shooting but they don't want Israel to be serious enough about it that Hamas' human shields aren't enough protection.
      - skinnymuch 5y ago
        Yes. Which is so tragic. Perhaps I'm not aware of what is a Pro-Israel source or not, but when googling "mowing the grass" as the IDF's tactic against Gaza. It appeared as if most political sides agreed that is the tactic being taken. Different political sides viewed the morality and usefulness of that differently. But they all appeared to agree. Hamas isn't "mowing the grass". The IDF is. I'm not sure what a solution could actually be. However mowing the grass has clearly shown it benefits the evils of Hamas and other higher ups in Gaza. It keeps the current status quo in tact which gives Israel some benefits too. Let's (I am using "let us" as an American whose country is allied with Israel and as someone who supports Israel's right to their land and do not want innocent people to die) not "mow the grass" any more.
hadlock 5y ago
I'm curious where the tipping point is, where the military response exceeds the financial cost of a political response. It's one thing to have tensions simmering on both sides of a border, it's another that one side feels wronged and is lobbing bombs over the fence. The fact that they're having to develop a laser defense system to defend against lobbed bombs seems like it's time to reevaluate political solutions.
- jlawson 5y ago
  - ahthat 5y ago
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    The Palestinians? They have not made it clear at all. TMany people living in Gaza, one of the poorest, unsafe, strips of land with the least amount of autonomy or basic human respect given, don’t have time and energy to focus on a goal of utterly conquering and pushing Israel to the sea. I assume this implies killing all Israelis too? Quite a statement to make about the vast majority of Gaza citizens that can barely survive. — > Either you can afford the defenses you need to exist, or you can't and you stop existing. In no world could Palestine ever stop Israel from existing either. Like: - Kurds or Armenians can’t wipe out Turkey. - Yemenese rebels (Houthi) can’t wipe out Saudi Arabia. - Uyghur’s or Tibet or Hong Kong or Taiwan can’t wipe out China. - Ukraine or Georgia or Bosnia or Crimea can’t wipe out Russia. - Kosovo can’t wipe out Serbia. - Pakistan can’t wipe out India. - IRA or Ireland can’t wipe out Britain. —- Israel is a beautiful place. I enjoyed Tel Aviv quite a bit. I certainly don’t want Israel going anywhere :)
    - golergka 5y ago
      > I assume this implies killing all Israelis too? Yes. > Quite a statement to make about the vast majority of Gaza citizens that can barely survive. Talk to them. Personally, I think that the reason this conflict is so misunderstood in the West is that you guys are just too distant from the cultural norms of the region, and literally can't believe that millions of people could openly and unapologetically be pro-genocide.
deleted 5y ago
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jimnotgym 5y ago
...and then what. What will they do when the rockets get faster, shinier, more erratic in flight...or any of the other things mentioned on this thread? I'm not going to pretend I have the solutions to the Arab Isreali conflict, but this is at best temporary. My best guess is the long term solution (if there is ever one attempted) will be more related to why people are motivated to launch rockets at their neighbours.
- RobRivera 5y ago
  welcome to the concept of Escalation Dominance in the field of arms tech.
- RegnisGnaw 5y ago
  These "advanced" rockets will be more costly, which means your more limited on how many you can afford to fire. Thus Israel can intercept these "advanced" rockets with other solutions: Iron Dome, Arrow 2, Arrow 3, and David's Sling. The Iron Beam is the low cost per intercept solution, meant to intercept cheap unguided ballistic rockets.
  - jimnotgym 5y ago
    Other people on here have suggested that tin foil will do as protection, or metal polish for that matter. Im guessing this will make no difference in the number of rockets at all
    - nickff 5y ago
      Random commenters on HN are not smarter than the Palestinians nor the Israelis involved in this conflict. I am sure that 'tin foil' (by which I believe you mean aluminum foil) will not work.
      - awakeasleep 5y ago
        What you say is true but we dont know how much marketing fluff we’re dealing with in this press release, either.
hirundo 5y ago
"If we can intercept a missile or rocket with an electrical pulse that costs a few dollars, we will essentially neutralize the ring of fire that Iran has set up" This sets up a steampunk scenario where the missile must be controlled by a mechanical gyroscopic guidance system, immune from electrical pulses.
- fuzzy2 5y ago
  This system isn't an EMP system. It heats the target until it disintegrates. I think the rockets it has to defend against are already as low-tech as possible, too.
- LorenPechtel 5y ago
  "Electrical pulse" as in using some electricity rather than using a missile. Iron Dome missiles are cheap as SAMs go--they're short range and don't have to cope with countermeasures, but electricity is far cheaper. Iron Beam costs will basically be manning and wear rather than expended ammo.
Footkerchief 5y ago
The use of the present tense is factually wrong. TFA says "Within a year already the IDF (Israel Defence Forces) will bring into action ..."
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  That's not present tense. It's a non-native English speaker. (Or at least, not US-style English.)
  - pvinis 5y ago
    Still, a better title would be "Israel to roll out laser defense system", to make it slip less present-y and a bit more future-y.
einpoklum 5y ago
Note Israeli PM Bennet is currently facing a lot of media and public attention to large price hikes of different consumer goods, electricity and gasoline. Just saying. (PS - Also, scrutiny about Israeli soldiers having bound and gagged an 80-yro Palestinian man, leaving him on the floor in some abandoned building after having stopped him in an illegal roadblock, with him eventually dying. Israelis wouldn't need a distraction from that kind of stuff happening, though; we/they are already trained to filter that out.)
doodlebugging 5y ago
>This new generation of air defence can also serve our friends in the region, who are also exposed to grave threats from Iran and its proxies. Interestingly enough this system will be available to all those neighborly enough to join Israel against all the Iranian-backed adversaries. It sounds like sales of technology from the NSO group was a real foot-in-the-door for Israel for forging of new, previously unlikely alliances. Once you get all these rich petro-states hooked on the products that you can peddle then maybe the overall security situation in that region changes dramatically. For one, it becomes more likely that one of these operators could act unilaterally and thus could kick off a war that no one else wanted when other options were still on the table. Interesting development overall.
- nickff 5y ago
  >"It sounds like sales of technology from the NSO group was a real foot-in-the-door for Israel for forging of new, previously unlikely alliances." Israel has had 'secret' alliances with some supposedly 'antagonistic' states for a long time. These are all just extensions of those previously hidden relationships.
towe12301923 5y ago
> "If we can intercept a missile or rocket with an electrical pulse that costs a few dollars, we will essentially neutralize the ring of fire that Iran has set up ... This new generation of air defence can also serve our friends in the region, who are also exposed to grave threats from Iran and its proxies. This is admirable. Instead of playing the typical offense-first arms race, they are in a defense-first technology race. Its non-violent and the technology and skills will benefit the entire country. I hope they eventually win the war just by building a far better country that people want to immigrate into instead of attack.
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  I don’t think people want to immigrate to the Gaza Strip. Under any conditions. Or if Gaza is not Israel to you. I think many people in Gaza would love to immigrate to Israel.
- dundarious 5y ago
  The Israeli Defense Forces use bulldozers, assault rifles, sniper rifles, white phosphorous, shells, missiles, attack helicopters, cluster bombs, and massive bunker buster bombs. The fact that they have so conclusively won the offensive/violent weapon arms race is readily apparent in the casualty statistics.
guerrilla 5y ago
Lots of news about Israel today. Amnesty International just released a new report condemning Israel as an apartheid state.[1] 1. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...
- yuvalr1 5y ago
  What a great way to start an off topic flame war... By the way, you could have shown Israel's response to this report as well: https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-attacks-delusional-amnesty-uk-ahead-of-report-accusing-israel-of-apartheid/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-attacks-delusional-amnes...
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    Hopefully people here can do better than get into a flame war when provided with context for weapons technology news and if they can't then they should be down-voted and possibly flagged.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      I believe he was complaining about the lack of context you provided. The dropping of the typical (and false) apartheid accusation without providing the response.
      - skinnymuch 5y ago
        Another comment responded to that: _"Do you also post Russian or North Korean responses when discussions involving these countries occur?"_ I'd extend that to America or basically any country. I can't imagine it being considered the start to a flame war if some one presents a report by a large organization with some level of reputation without providing the state's response. If there is a report by Amnesty condemning a major issue like the amount of cronyism in all higher levels of the West and America. Or of how lobbying in the US is effectively legalized corruption. Or how [Super] PACs hurt the sanctity of democracy...for any of these things, the official US response or response from any high level of the US government is not that important. I have a hard time imagining being told not including the official western state response is a great way to start a flame war.
323 5y ago
Could you make the missile really really shiny so that it reflects the laser away?
- mr_toad 5y ago
  Industrial lasers use water cooled copper mirrors to avoid overheating and destroying the mirror. Keeping them clean is a big issue. Seems it would be quite hard to make a missile sufficiently reflective that a mirror coating wouldn’t quickly degrade.
deleted 5y ago
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potiuper 5y ago
8 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27173138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27173138
senectus1 5y ago
The last time I saw Israel doing something like this it was an infrared laser, each laser used a massive "chemical reaction battery" to power the laser. But each burst of shots used a big sea container looking battery that churned out some truly hideous chemical waste. I wonder how they plan on powering this new system.
- tguvot 5y ago
  you are probably talking about THEL from 20 years ago. those "batteries" were reason that it never became operational: too risky to be around them in case they blow up. new one are fiber optic lasers i think
RivieraKid 5y ago
Is there a consensus on whether a nuclear missile shield would be feasible, regardless the technology? Basically, if the US invested 1% of the GDP into developing a missile shield, could it achieve let's say a 98% success rate against incoming missiles?
- HWR_14 5y ago
  The issue is global conflicts have a lot of missiles. Your 98% success rate probably still means most Americans are dead. IIRC Russia's ICBMs are measured in tens of thousands, and each one could take out a major US city (until we ran out)
  - nradov 5y ago
    Russia has only about 1600 operational nuclear warheads on a much smaller number of ICBMS. It's not tens of thousands. https://thebulletin.org/premium/2021-03/nuclear-notebook-russian-nuclear-weapons-2021/ https://thebulletin.org/premium/2021-03/nuclear-notebook-rus... But even with that lower number you're correct that we have no hope of defending against a major strike.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      Ah, I had thought 1600 missiles x MIRV multiples of at least 12. But thanks for the correction. I'm sure people in Nampa, Idaho will sleep safer.
copperwater69 5y ago
This will do great work for their apartheid state! https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apart...
- hunterb123 5y ago
  That propaganda was already spammed and flagged in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30170308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30170308
  - copperwater69 5y ago
    Propaganda is a strong word for truth
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      Truth is a strong word for propaganda. Saying nonsensical responses like that is easy. In the thread I linked there is a rebuttal of Amnesty's propaganda: https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-attacks-delusional-amnesty-uk-ahead-of-report-accusing-israel-of-apartheid/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-attacks-delusional-amnes...
      - copperwater69 5y ago
        One of the most common tactics is for Jews to point the finger at “Gentile anti-Semitism” rather than acknowledge actual Jewish behavior.
        james-redwood 5y ago
        Coming from a person who lived for a while in South Africa as a refugee as well as worked in Israel, Israel is simply not an apartheid state. It’s more arguable that the situation in the West Bank bears some similarity, but it lacks the critical features of apartheid such as lack of governmental representation, lack of the right to vote based on race, massively disparate funding enshrined in law according to race, denial of public services due to race, etc. None of these are found in Israel, and some of them are found to a certain extent in the West Bank, but not all of them and not entirely. It’s a hip buzzword though that gets people’s attention, which is why it’s used by Palestinian activists. No one accused you of antisemitism either, and what I always find rather curious are those who almost always pre-empt their responses saying that someone will baselessly accuse them of antisemitism, when no one in fact actually does. Way to figure out how to blame Jews anyhow even when they don’t do anything. What’s more, there are literally hundreds of thousands of Jews who are ambivalent about Israel and criticise it daily, and yet you seem to put all Jews into a single monolith and claim that it’s a ‘tactic’ of theirs. Sounds eerily like Nazi era propaganda of accusing them of ‘Jewish trickery’.
Havoc 5y ago
That would suggest they’ve made a significant breakthrough. Especially that comment about a couple dollars. From what I can tell all the existing tech is still reasonably niche and expensive.

112 points by Anonymous4272 5y ago

With rockets I'm guessing that thermal signatures are used to home in on the projectile being destroyed. But I'm wondering what's being used here to keep the laser locked onto the target projectile. It's definitely an impressive technological feat.

LegitShady 5y ago
The arrow missile system uses the Israeli green pine radar for acquisition and tracking while the arrow interceptor has both passive ir and active radar tracking.
datameta 5y ago
My (completely unsubstantiated) guess is that a targeting IR laser is used for the required granularity of target correction.
WJW 5y ago
Typically you'd use radar to detect incoming projectiles, using multiple detections over time to determine the trajectory of an incoming missile (they are usually unguided and will thus follow a predictable ballistic trajectory).
- manishsharan 5y ago
  But would it not be possible to build missiles that can intelligently alter route upon detecting detection ? I recall once working on a auto guided industrial machine based on Motorola 68000 microprocessor that could figure out how to route itself to its destination. So unless you can detect and eliminate the missile almost simultaneously, an intelligent missile could throttle it's velocity etc. to avoid predictable trajectory. Edit: some typos
  - yehoshuapw 5y ago
    while missiles can be built to have irregular routes, this is more important for missile-based defense. there, with the distances and speeds involved it will cause the interceptor to need to counter the irregularities, which will make it need to also be much more advanced. small changes in thrust however (at a later time - and thus higher speed) can cause only so much of a change. but more importantly - light-based interception can be re-pointed much faster then a missile can change it's own course.
    - manishsharan 5y ago
      A missile design may evolve to have the original missile to intelligently decompose,upon detection, into multiple smaller missiles each with a randomized target and path. The parent missile could focus on reaching as close as possible to target rich area with stealth and upon inevitable detection, unleash smaller missiles with randomized paths. If the cost of missiles keep going down, I can see aggressors firing several of these to maximize their probability of a successful hit.
      - cronix 5y ago
        That's been around for quite a long time, at least the late 1960's. > A multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle (MIRV) is an exoatmospheric ballistic missile payload containing several warheads, each capable of being aimed to hit a different target. The concept is almost invariably associated with intercontinental ballistic missiles carrying thermonuclear warheads, even if not strictly being limited to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targetable_reentry_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targeta...
      - samus 5y ago
        These are more expensive to build though. At some point, more far-ranging and guided systems can be used to snipe it before it is anywhere close from splitting apart. And Iron Beam will still be cheaper to deal with any warheads that manage to split off.
  - 5y ago

dexwiz 5y ago

This tech will be the end of MAD and the start of WW3. The only thing holding back current super powers from direct confrontation are ICBMs and MAD. Once they can be reliably shot down via lasers, then full scale war is much more likely. I understand the current tech is for much slower, much lower rockets and cruise missiles. But the tech will evolve and get better. Israel is the current test bed for high tech defense, so expect further improvements over the next decade. We have seen a century of relative peace, enjoy it while it lasts.

elsonrodriguez 5y ago
As long as EMPs are viable MAD is still in effect.
- gremlinsinc 5y ago
  An emp would knock out electrical grids.... sure... But that isn't annihilation... Say russia installed this in major cities (rural is acceptable loss), then manufactured super sonic nukes that could deliver a strike in under 5 mins... or even a minute... they could strike many of our nuke sites (not all because of subs) but our major military operation bases, then we strike back from subs, but these take them all out, there's some fallout from atmospheric explosions which may be as bad, but maybe they hoist huge fans to blow it south to the Ukraine or another enemy state... I don't think EMP's really would deter this sort of outcome... MAD is becoming less and less a thing, super-sonic weapons are the real clencher, because with those it's simply whoever strikes first - if they strike hard enough can disable just about any enemy... so the trick will be not getting to the point of first strike... which...I don't think we can really prevent, not w/ water wars/climate resources diminishing, etc.... The worst war ever will come, we thought globalization could keep people sane but threats to supply chains, and resources, and the existence of the earth itself turn people into desperate people. Desperate people don't always do what's considered 'sane'. What we'd deem an evil dictator might try and nuke 80% of the population to save the climate, and it probably would succeed but most sane people would say the cost is too great for that ...and they'd be right too.... I mean Thanos had good intentions but horrible means towards them... A madman who gets elected or inherits the button to the nations military arsenal could decide to burn it all down like Nero...

james-redwood 5y ago

The space lasers were real /s (in reference to the Republican congresswoman who blamed the California wildfires on Jewish space lasers: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/marjorie-taylor-greene-qanon-wildfires-space-laser-rothschild-execute.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/marjorie-taylor-gree...)

m0llusk 5y ago
It really surprises me that so many people who have seen UFO reports all their lives cite this as nothing but humorous stupidity from a politician. People who follow satellite data in order to understand global patterns of earthquakes and weather saw what looks like beams from unknown sources hitting areas that then caught fire. As with anything else this is very likely to be some kind of sensor or transmission glitch that simply needs to be analyzed in detail to find some mundane explanation, but it is worth acknowledging that the whole business emerged not from the political foolishness that got attached to it later but from hobbyists trying to explain genuinely peculiar data. Even when people talk about UFOs or space lasers it is worth taking in and trying to explain the actual data.
- doodlebugging 5y ago
  > People who follow satellite data in order to understand global patterns of earthquakes and weather saw what looks like beams from unknown sources hitting areas that then caught fire. What? Is there a link to any of this or is it just standard internet BS? I've heard of earthquake lights and there may be something to that. Never heard of anything focused on places that later caught fire. The fires that I am aware of were mostly blamed on poor maintenance of electrical utility infrastructure or on arsonists or fools doing stupid stuff like "gender reveals". Enlighten me, but not with one of them space lasers, just about them.
  - m0llusk 5y ago
    At the time I saw the videos on YouTube postings from "dutchsinse". Why is it my job to do your research? Videos of what appear to be moving globs get people yelling about UFOs and now videos of what appear to be beams just before fires get people yelling about space lasers. Do you really think that being sloppy and full of emotion and attitude somehow makes you superior and on top of all of this? If you actually dared to read my post I posited that these were probably the usual misinterpretation of sensory or transmission glitches, but you are too scared to even look up what this is about in order to give some kind of meaningful and informed reply. All you care about is a political wingnut.

sandworm101 5y ago

I will believe it when I see it. Focusing that much light on a small moving object, through layered and moving air, with an intensity to burn through metal would be an achievement. Burning through enough of that metal to degrade a falling rocket (as opposed to during boost phase of flight) is even harder. For all the talk about cost reduction, have a look at what realworld laser armor costs. Painting the nosecone of a rocket white, or coating it with reflective foil costs next to nothing but is remarkably effective. Better question: What would this do to a manned aircraft? There is a reason there are treaties against blinding weapons.

simplyaccont 5y ago
>I will believe it when I see it. Focusing that much light on a small moving object, through layered and moving air, with an intensity to burn through metal would be an achievement. Burning through enough of that metal to degrade a falling rocket (as opposed to during boost phase of flight) is even harder. it's been working 20 years ago. it's just systems were too big. you needed 2-3 tracks to supply energy to laser system, and there were delays between shots. >For all the talk about cost reduction, have a look at what realworld laser armor costs. Painting the nosecone of a rocket white, or coating it with reflective foil costs next to nothing but is remarkably effective. doesn't work. nosecone it's small part of rocket, laser will target midsection probably. reflective foil won't help either as it needs to be designed to reflect specific wavelength of laser iirc
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Any foil will do, just as the JWST's sunshield is effective against all the wavelengths coming off the sun. Gold or silver is best, but aluminum foil from the grocery store is extremely reflective across all wavelengths we would call laser. Just giving the metal rocket a good polish would make a significant difference.
  - simplyaccont 5y ago
    there is some difference, but I guess all the companies that sank billions into directed energy weapons missed that aluminum foil from shop can negate all their efforts

snidane 5y ago

Will they start shooting rockets when it gets foggy ouside now?

ocschwar 5y ago
Historically they've not done that because they know the IDF's response is proportional to the civilian casualties on the Israeli side. Better to wait for clear weather when iron dome is maximally effective.
- deleted 5y ago
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- golergka 5y ago
  This doesn't make any sense. The whole point is to get a bigger IDF response, bloodier palestinian casualties, louder western media coverage and larger help packages to pocket.
  - LorenPechtel 5y ago
    No. Hamas doesn't want too much Israeli response--Israel is too good at targeting the higher-up people. They want to provoke some shooting but they don't want Israel to be serious enough about it that Hamas' human shields aren't enough protection.
    - skinnymuch 5y ago
      Yes. Which is so tragic. Perhaps I'm not aware of what is a Pro-Israel source or not, but when googling "mowing the grass" as the IDF's tactic against Gaza. It appeared as if most political sides agreed that is the tactic being taken. Different political sides viewed the morality and usefulness of that differently. But they all appeared to agree. Hamas isn't "mowing the grass". The IDF is. I'm not sure what a solution could actually be. However mowing the grass has clearly shown it benefits the evils of Hamas and other higher ups in Gaza. It keeps the current status quo in tact which gives Israel some benefits too. Let's (I am using "let us" as an American whose country is allied with Israel and as someone who supports Israel's right to their land and do not want innocent people to die) not "mow the grass" any more.

hadlock 5y ago

I'm curious where the tipping point is, where the military response exceeds the financial cost of a political response. It's one thing to have tensions simmering on both sides of a border, it's another that one side feels wronged and is lobbing bombs over the fence. The fact that they're having to develop a laser defense system to defend against lobbed bombs seems like it's time to reevaluate political solutions.

jlawson 5y ago
- ahthat 5y ago
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  The Palestinians? They have not made it clear at all. TMany people living in Gaza, one of the poorest, unsafe, strips of land with the least amount of autonomy or basic human respect given, don’t have time and energy to focus on a goal of utterly conquering and pushing Israel to the sea. I assume this implies killing all Israelis too? Quite a statement to make about the vast majority of Gaza citizens that can barely survive. — > Either you can afford the defenses you need to exist, or you can't and you stop existing. In no world could Palestine ever stop Israel from existing either. Like: - Kurds or Armenians can’t wipe out Turkey. - Yemenese rebels (Houthi) can’t wipe out Saudi Arabia. - Uyghur’s or Tibet or Hong Kong or Taiwan can’t wipe out China. - Ukraine or Georgia or Bosnia or Crimea can’t wipe out Russia. - Kosovo can’t wipe out Serbia. - Pakistan can’t wipe out India. - IRA or Ireland can’t wipe out Britain. —- Israel is a beautiful place. I enjoyed Tel Aviv quite a bit. I certainly don’t want Israel going anywhere :)
  - golergka 5y ago
    > I assume this implies killing all Israelis too? Yes. > Quite a statement to make about the vast majority of Gaza citizens that can barely survive. Talk to them. Personally, I think that the reason this conflict is so misunderstood in the West is that you guys are just too distant from the cultural norms of the region, and literally can't believe that millions of people could openly and unapologetically be pro-genocide.

deleted 5y ago

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jimnotgym 5y ago

...and then what. What will they do when the rockets get faster, shinier, more erratic in flight...or any of the other things mentioned on this thread? I'm not going to pretend I have the solutions to the Arab Isreali conflict, but this is at best temporary. My best guess is the long term solution (if there is ever one attempted) will be more related to why people are motivated to launch rockets at their neighbours.

RobRivera 5y ago
welcome to the concept of Escalation Dominance in the field of arms tech.
RegnisGnaw 5y ago
These "advanced" rockets will be more costly, which means your more limited on how many you can afford to fire. Thus Israel can intercept these "advanced" rockets with other solutions: Iron Dome, Arrow 2, Arrow 3, and David's Sling. The Iron Beam is the low cost per intercept solution, meant to intercept cheap unguided ballistic rockets.
- jimnotgym 5y ago
  Other people on here have suggested that tin foil will do as protection, or metal polish for that matter. Im guessing this will make no difference in the number of rockets at all
  - nickff 5y ago
    Random commenters on HN are not smarter than the Palestinians nor the Israelis involved in this conflict. I am sure that 'tin foil' (by which I believe you mean aluminum foil) will not work.
    - awakeasleep 5y ago
      What you say is true but we dont know how much marketing fluff we’re dealing with in this press release, either.

hirundo 5y ago

"If we can intercept a missile or rocket with an electrical pulse that costs a few dollars, we will essentially neutralize the ring of fire that Iran has set up" This sets up a steampunk scenario where the missile must be controlled by a mechanical gyroscopic guidance system, immune from electrical pulses.

fuzzy2 5y ago
This system isn't an EMP system. It heats the target until it disintegrates. I think the rockets it has to defend against are already as low-tech as possible, too.
LorenPechtel 5y ago
"Electrical pulse" as in using some electricity rather than using a missile. Iron Dome missiles are cheap as SAMs go--they're short range and don't have to cope with countermeasures, but electricity is far cheaper. Iron Beam costs will basically be manning and wear rather than expended ammo.

Footkerchief 5y ago

The use of the present tense is factually wrong. TFA says "Within a year already the IDF (Israel Defence Forces) will bring into action ..."

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
That's not present tense. It's a non-native English speaker. (Or at least, not US-style English.)
- pvinis 5y ago
  Still, a better title would be "Israel to roll out laser defense system", to make it slip less present-y and a bit more future-y.

einpoklum 5y ago

Note Israeli PM Bennet is currently facing a lot of media and public attention to large price hikes of different consumer goods, electricity and gasoline. Just saying. (PS - Also, scrutiny about Israeli soldiers having bound and gagged an 80-yro Palestinian man, leaving him on the floor in some abandoned building after having stopped him in an illegal roadblock, with him eventually dying. Israelis wouldn't need a distraction from that kind of stuff happening, though; we/they are already trained to filter that out.)

doodlebugging 5y ago

>This new generation of air defence can also serve our friends in the region, who are also exposed to grave threats from Iran and its proxies. Interestingly enough this system will be available to all those neighborly enough to join Israel against all the Iranian-backed adversaries. It sounds like sales of technology from the NSO group was a real foot-in-the-door for Israel for forging of new, previously unlikely alliances. Once you get all these rich petro-states hooked on the products that you can peddle then maybe the overall security situation in that region changes dramatically. For one, it becomes more likely that one of these operators could act unilaterally and thus could kick off a war that no one else wanted when other options were still on the table. Interesting development overall.

nickff 5y ago
>"It sounds like sales of technology from the NSO group was a real foot-in-the-door for Israel for forging of new, previously unlikely alliances." Israel has had 'secret' alliances with some supposedly 'antagonistic' states for a long time. These are all just extensions of those previously hidden relationships.

towe12301923 5y ago

> "If we can intercept a missile or rocket with an electrical pulse that costs a few dollars, we will essentially neutralize the ring of fire that Iran has set up ... This new generation of air defence can also serve our friends in the region, who are also exposed to grave threats from Iran and its proxies. This is admirable. Instead of playing the typical offense-first arms race, they are in a defense-first technology race. Its non-violent and the technology and skills will benefit the entire country. I hope they eventually win the war just by building a far better country that people want to immigrate into instead of attack.

skinnymuch 5y ago
I don’t think people want to immigrate to the Gaza Strip. Under any conditions. Or if Gaza is not Israel to you. I think many people in Gaza would love to immigrate to Israel.
dundarious 5y ago
The Israeli Defense Forces use bulldozers, assault rifles, sniper rifles, white phosphorous, shells, missiles, attack helicopters, cluster bombs, and massive bunker buster bombs. The fact that they have so conclusively won the offensive/violent weapon arms race is readily apparent in the casualty statistics.

guerrilla 5y ago

Lots of news about Israel today. Amnesty International just released a new report condemning Israel as an apartheid state.[1] 1. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...

yuvalr1 5y ago
What a great way to start an off topic flame war... By the way, you could have shown Israel's response to this report as well: https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-attacks-delusional-amnesty-uk-ahead-of-report-accusing-israel-of-apartheid/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-attacks-delusional-amnes...
- guerrilla 5y ago
  Hopefully people here can do better than get into a flame war when provided with context for weapons technology news and if they can't then they should be down-voted and possibly flagged.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    I believe he was complaining about the lack of context you provided. The dropping of the typical (and false) apartheid accusation without providing the response.
    - skinnymuch 5y ago
      Another comment responded to that: _"Do you also post Russian or North Korean responses when discussions involving these countries occur?"_ I'd extend that to America or basically any country. I can't imagine it being considered the start to a flame war if some one presents a report by a large organization with some level of reputation without providing the state's response. If there is a report by Amnesty condemning a major issue like the amount of cronyism in all higher levels of the West and America. Or of how lobbying in the US is effectively legalized corruption. Or how [Super] PACs hurt the sanctity of democracy...for any of these things, the official US response or response from any high level of the US government is not that important. I have a hard time imagining being told not including the official western state response is a great way to start a flame war.

323 5y ago

Could you make the missile really really shiny so that it reflects the laser away?

mr_toad 5y ago
Industrial lasers use water cooled copper mirrors to avoid overheating and destroying the mirror. Keeping them clean is a big issue. Seems it would be quite hard to make a missile sufficiently reflective that a mirror coating wouldn’t quickly degrade.

deleted 5y ago

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potiuper 5y ago

8 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27173138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27173138

senectus1 5y ago

The last time I saw Israel doing something like this it was an infrared laser, each laser used a massive "chemical reaction battery" to power the laser. But each burst of shots used a big sea container looking battery that churned out some truly hideous chemical waste. I wonder how they plan on powering this new system.

tguvot 5y ago
you are probably talking about THEL from 20 years ago. those "batteries" were reason that it never became operational: too risky to be around them in case they blow up. new one are fiber optic lasers i think

RivieraKid 5y ago

Is there a consensus on whether a nuclear missile shield would be feasible, regardless the technology? Basically, if the US invested 1% of the GDP into developing a missile shield, could it achieve let's say a 98% success rate against incoming missiles?

HWR_14 5y ago
The issue is global conflicts have a lot of missiles. Your 98% success rate probably still means most Americans are dead. IIRC Russia's ICBMs are measured in tens of thousands, and each one could take out a major US city (until we ran out)
- nradov 5y ago
  Russia has only about 1600 operational nuclear warheads on a much smaller number of ICBMS. It's not tens of thousands. https://thebulletin.org/premium/2021-03/nuclear-notebook-russian-nuclear-weapons-2021/ https://thebulletin.org/premium/2021-03/nuclear-notebook-rus... But even with that lower number you're correct that we have no hope of defending against a major strike.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Ah, I had thought 1600 missiles x MIRV multiples of at least 12. But thanks for the correction. I'm sure people in Nampa, Idaho will sleep safer.

copperwater69 5y ago

This will do great work for their apartheid state! https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apart...

hunterb123 5y ago
That propaganda was already spammed and flagged in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30170308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30170308
- copperwater69 5y ago
  Propaganda is a strong word for truth
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    Truth is a strong word for propaganda. Saying nonsensical responses like that is easy. In the thread I linked there is a rebuttal of Amnesty's propaganda: https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-attacks-delusional-amnesty-uk-ahead-of-report-accusing-israel-of-apartheid/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-attacks-delusional-amnes...
    - copperwater69 5y ago
      One of the most common tactics is for Jews to point the finger at “Gentile anti-Semitism” rather than acknowledge actual Jewish behavior.
      - james-redwood 5y ago
        Coming from a person who lived for a while in South Africa as a refugee as well as worked in Israel, Israel is simply not an apartheid state. It’s more arguable that the situation in the West Bank bears some similarity, but it lacks the critical features of apartheid such as lack of governmental representation, lack of the right to vote based on race, massively disparate funding enshrined in law according to race, denial of public services due to race, etc. None of these are found in Israel, and some of them are found to a certain extent in the West Bank, but not all of them and not entirely. It’s a hip buzzword though that gets people’s attention, which is why it’s used by Palestinian activists. No one accused you of antisemitism either, and what I always find rather curious are those who almost always pre-empt their responses saying that someone will baselessly accuse them of antisemitism, when no one in fact actually does. Way to figure out how to blame Jews anyhow even when they don’t do anything. What’s more, there are literally hundreds of thousands of Jews who are ambivalent about Israel and criticise it daily, and yet you seem to put all Jews into a single monolith and claim that it’s a ‘tactic’ of theirs. Sounds eerily like Nazi era propaganda of accusing them of ‘Jewish trickery’.

Havoc 5y ago

That would suggest they’ve made a significant breakthrough. Especially that comment about a couple dollars. From what I can tell all the existing tech is still reasonably niche and expensive.